Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Is Roe v. Wade Pro-Choice?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Choice Donate to DU
 
cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 05:53 PM
Original message
Is Roe v. Wade Pro-Choice?
Can a person support Roe v. Wade in its current form and NOT be inherently Pro-Choice?
Refresh | 0 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. If you look at Roe v Wade as giving women ability to chose legal abortion over illegal,
then it seems anyone supporting the choice is pro-choice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well what does that mean? (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Can a person support Roe v. Wade in its current form and NOT be inherently Pro-Choice?
Your opinion.

What what I wrote means is how do you define supporting Roe v. Wade in its current form?

How I define it, "If you look at Roe v Wade as giving women ability to chose legal abortion over illegal, then it seems anyone supporting the choice is pro-choice" means using this definition, and double negativitying the discussion, to simplify, if you use me definition of roe V wade, then you are pro-choice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Ahh
Edited on Mon Apr-30-07 06:13 PM by cgrindley
In their decision, the SCOTUS in Roe v. Wade recognized that women have the right to an abortion under certain circumstances and at certain points during pregnancy. This access is curtailed with the onset of fetal viability although the immediate threat to a woman's life is always grounds for abortion.

What I'm asking is this: is the Roe v. Wade opinion a Pro-Choice opinion?

You'll notice that I capitalized Pro-Choice to separate it from the general concept of being in favor of autonomous actions in general.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I haven't sat down with the whole set of opinions for 10+ yrs
Studied it all when in college for a nursing class, it was quite interesting how they came to the conclusions they did. Perhaps I need to get the whole set again and sit down and read it in depth since things are happening to change it.

What is a Pro-Choice opinion, in your opinion? (capital P)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Well, I'd say that Roe v. Wade is Pro-Choice
but I feel that around DU, my opinion is in a really tiny minority. I think that a lot of people define choice as being absolute regardless of trimester and reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. It means the government has no business interfering in
one's private medical decisions.

It doesn't mean the government can forbid abortions.

It doesn't mean the government can force abortions.

It doesn't mean doctors are forbidden to perform abortion.

It doesn't mean doctors must be compelled to perform abortion.

It means the the government simply has no place in such a decision.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No no no, we're discussing Roe v. Wade
those things are not in Roe v. Wade.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
PDenton Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-18-07 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
86. Roe vs. Wade
legalized some abortions and said states could ban other abortions. It is only as pro- or anti- as you see it. At any rate it is increasingly irrelevent since the court has ruled, especially since the late 90's, that restrictions can further be placed on abortion, such as waiting periods, parental notification, and so on.

Most people in the US are both pro- and anti-abortion. They have these two feelings and beliefs in their heads to varying degrees. They want some abortions and want others to be illegal. Very few people are pro-life or pro-choice. The problem is most legislatures are too cowardly to actually come out and specify what is going to be legal abortion that people have a right to, so it is in the realm of democratic law and not the courts. As long as legislatures remain spineless, the abortion issue is going to be bounced around courts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
JetCityLiberal Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Spot on Warpy
The right wing control freaks won't get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. That wasn't the question posed by the original poster.
Or am I just reading things wrong?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Or maybe
both...reading this wrong, as you are somehow entitled to possess an opinion about WOMEN'S rights. Of course, you can have an opinion. Perhaps your error was in believing your opinion mattered. Or you even thought it had some sort of merit.

Silly boy.

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Hey, I'm honored you responded to each of my posts in this thread.
It warms my heart. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. I don't have the time...
...or energy to respond to ALL of your posts in this thread. My hands would quite possibly cramp. You've only been on this thread ALL DAY LONG.

Some of us, have other things to do within eight hours of the day. :spray:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. As for compelling, we could bring up pharmacists and Plan B
there are those here who feel pharmacists should be compelled to carry it. Under that logic a physician could be compelled to perform abortions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. we could, if we were disingenuous
I've never heard of pharmacists who serve only people with tonsillitis, or people with high blood pressure, or people with colds. Perhaps if a pharmacist did want to open a pharmacy that catered only to people with, say, psychological ailments, that pharmacist should not be compelled to carry Plan B.

Doctors, however, do specialize. Doctors who specialize in internal medicine are not required to treat skin rashes. But doctors who specialize in internal medicine and refuse to provide internal-medicine kinda treatments to people of colour or immigrants or Baptists might have a bit of a hard time.

My ophthalmologist specializes in cataract surgery. There is no good reason to compel him to perform detached-retina surgeries (let alone, heavens above, abortions). He probably isn't even very good at it, so in whose interests would that be? Would there be some good reason to compel him to get competent at it, and to do it? I can't see one.

Some obstetricians/gynaecologists specialize in abortion procedures, some specialize in other things. Dr. Lippes, inventor of the Lippes Loop, from whom I got my first Copper-T IUD, apparently specialized in IUDs, and quite likely didn't do a lot in the way of baby deliveries. (This was in the US when abortion was illegal, so he probably didn't do a lot of them, either.)

Dispensing a couple of pills, and reading a script about how the pills should be taken etc., really just isn't quite like performing surgery.

Now, it is important that doctors be able to do a lot of things, even if they don't make a habit of it. It's probably wise that my ophthalmologist be trained, in medical school, in performing detached-retina surgery -- just in case he's the only person available in an ER, say in the far North in the middle of a snowstorm, when someone with a detached retina walks in. Ditto abortion procedures. Just in case an ob-gyn is the only person available in an ER when someone with an incomplete spontaneous abortion, for instance, comes in.

But really, it's just plain specious to compare the dispensing of pills by a pharmacist, whose job is to dispense pills, with the performance of abortions by a physician, whose job might really be to treat communicable diseases in children.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. You missed some of the food fights over plan B
where several here said because the pharmacy (not pharmicist) was licensed by the government that they had to carry all drugs reasonably foreseable, whether it made business sense or not.

I was pointing out that the same logic would require OBGYNs, trained to do abortions to perform them, willing or not.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. don't think so
You missed some of the food fights over plan B where several here said because the pharmacy (not pharmicist) was licensed by the government that they had to carry all drugs reasonably foreseable, whether it made business sense or not.

And really don't think that's an accurate representation of the argument. Really don't.

Have a look at what I've said in the past:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=2587&mesg_id=2689
(and others in thread)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=2559&mesg_id=2718

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=3023&mesg_id=3053

and a little farther afield:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=217&topic_id=1725&mesg_id=1735


I was pointing out that the same logic would require OBGYNs, trained to do abortions to perform them, willing or not.

You're not "pointing out" anything. You are making a claim, and it's been rebutted. Feel free to try again.


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Interestingly iverglas supports regulating the pharmicutical industry.
But not the abortion industry. That is quite odd indeed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. well, there we have it, folks
(a) the abortion industry

-- no comment needed here.

Leaving that aside,

(b) iverglas supports regulating the pharmicutical industry. But not the abortion industry.

-- a completely false statement, although actually a meaningless collection of noise.

Anything more needed, or is our work here done?

I don't think comment on the illiteracy is required ...



Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. You said:
None of this makes the opinion consistent with the overriding rules of professional conduct -- and the laws that impose standards of professional conduct.

What did you mean by that? My illiteracy is getting to me.

You are supporting government laws forcing pharmacists to dole out drugs even if they don't want to. Is this not a fact?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. ah, facts
You are supporting government laws forcing pharmacists to dole out drugs even if they don't want to. Is this not a fact?

Interesting that you say "government laws", ordinarily a redundancy, but it does highlight an important fact here.

Professionals -- by which I mean doctors, lawyers, engineers, pharmacists and the like, not ad executives -- are bound by the codes of ethics of their professions. Governments give the professions, through their governing bodies, the power to self-regulate: to determine who may practise the profession, and to set the standards of practice that practitioners must comply with, and to discipline or expel anyone who fails to comply with those standards.

Professional codes of ethics require that professionals practise in the public interest. Obviously, they do not require professionals to impoverish themselves in the interests of their clients, and there can be disagreement among reasonable people of goodwill as to how far a professional must subordinate his/her own interests to the interests of clients/the public. Like most dividing lines, it may be more of a grey area than a line, but nonetheless there are black cases and white cases.

A professional may not put his/her whim, or religious belief, above the needs/instructions of his/her client or the public. Period.

If a professional's whims or religious beliefs clash with the client's instructions or the public's needs, the professional sucks it up and does what professional ethics require.

If the professional doesn't like it, the professional is FREE to leave the profession. No one who is required to comply with a code of professional ethics is forced to do anything.

So no, it is NOT a fact that I am "supporting government laws forcing pharmacists to dole out drugs even if they don't want to".

That answer your "question"?

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. No, your rhetoric does not rebut my assertion.
Do you or do you not think that professionals should obey laws or not? You clearly think that they should. Thus you support government laws. This is an irrevocible fact. Do not try to ramble on these long rants to distort your own position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. the descent into kindergartenese
Do you or do you not think that professionals should obey laws or not?

Uh, yes. Why you ask such an inane and pointless question, I have no clue.

Thus you support government laws.

Like, what, as opposed to natural laws?

There is no "thus" there, child. I agree with the assertion that professionals are required to obey laws.

Agreement with that assertion does not mean that I "support government laws". There are a number of laws that I do not support. What on earth do you think your point is? What earthly connection is there among all these scribblings?

In this instance, the law requires that pharmacists obey the professional ethics of their governing professional body, or suffer the disciplinary consequences imposed by that body.

Professional ethics require that professionals put the well-being of their clients above their personal whims.

Pharmacists who refuse to put the well-being of clients seeking emergency contraception above their personal whims should be disciplined by their professional governing bodies, as the law permits and requires those bodies to do.

If you tell me what is not clear about this, I will be happy to attempt further explanation.

If you can tell me what in blazes this is supposed to have to do with abortion laws, I will probably fall over backward in a swoon. Because in point of fact it has NOTHING to do with abortion laws.

Do not try to ramble on these long rants to distort your own position.

Sweetie, I will promise not to distort my own position if you will promise not to distort my own position. Deal?





Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Thanks for conceeding that my statement was factual. :)
Thanks, I'm going to consider this argument moot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
79. I think this is wrong.

You say

"If a professional's whims or religious beliefs clash with the client's instructions or the public's needs, the professional sucks it up and does what professional ethics require."

My belief is that at that point, in most cases, a professional who is their own master is at liberty to put an end to their dealings with that client, and seek other clients.

If the organisation you're working for says that you have to continue to deal with that client then you have a professional duty to either represent them to the best of your ability, or resign your job, but if not then in most cases there's nothing forcing you to continue to deal with them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. I don't doubt that you do
Sadly, you don't seem to have anything to offer to counter what I said but your "belief".

My "belief" happens to be based on a little more than thin air.

My belief is that at that point, in most cases, a professional who is their own master is at liberty to put an end to their dealings with that client, and seek other clients.

NOT, very definitely not, if doing so leaves the client without access to the professional service in question. (Again, leaving aside the question of capacity to pay.)

In the case of a lawyer, for instance, it is simply NOT permissible for the lawyer to refuse a potential client based purely on personal whim or belief, WITHOUT ensuring that the client has appropriate representation.

Again -- emergency contraception is NOT like legal representation. The need is tightly time limited, the service is intensely personal for the client, and the pharmacist is really more in the position of a gatekeeper to the substance than a provider of professional services to the client. The client doesn't want a service -- she wants some pills. Not much like the services provided by a lawyer or doctor or engineer or architect.

Handing out one bunch of pills to one client is pretty much the same as handing out another bunch of pills to another client, really. The only time that any professional "service" comes into it is if there is a question of the suitability of the particular pills for the particular client, for instance in the case of known bad drug combinations. In the case of emergency contraception, the pharmacist need only read a script regarding proper use, contraindications and intended/anticipated effects. Just like with my blood pressure pills. And there simply is no reason, as permitted by professional ethics, to refuse to do it.

I've read some codes of ethics for governing bodies in the pharmaceutical profession. I can direct you to them, if you like. Always wise to do the reading first, of course.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
59. I don' t recall you being part of the threads I was referencing
and I was not commenting on whatever your positions happen to be
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. well harrumph harrumph
So, let's just see what you were saying:


several here said because the pharmacy (not pharmicist) was licensed by the government that they had to carry all drugs reasonably foreseable, whether it made business sense or not.

I was pointing out that the same logic would require OBGYNs, trained to do abortions to perform them, willing or not.



I'm seeing a non sequitur, myself.

Being required to carry a drug does not = being required to perform a procedure.

No logic.

Being required to carry a drug might be analogous to being required to know how to perform a procedure.

And I did address that in the post to which you seem to have no reply.

All done now, I guess.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. A law telling someone to do something.
Is the same regardless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. absolutely, you win, you're the smartest and the bestest of all

A law telling someone to do something.
Is the same regardless.


... even if you have no clue how punctuation works.

Yes, yes. Indeed. A law telling a landlord to install smoke detectors in rental units is just exactly 100% no question about it the same as a law telling an architect to design skyscrapers. And a law telling a farmer to install a waste-treatment system is just exactly 100% no question about it the same as a law telling an engineer to build a bridge.

Yes. All laws are the same. Exactly.

At least I can be pretty sure you aren't a law student. Law students may not all be the brightest things on two legs, but they don't tend to enjoy looking foolish in public. An engineering student perhaps?

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Sure.
Do you know what the word 'law' means? Because its definition stays the same. You might disagree with some laws and sometimes there exist no good analogue for some laws, but in the case Solo_in_MD's argument, the correlation sure does exist. And you just show yourself a hypocrite in that instance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Is there no place for medical law at all?
Interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Why do you care...?
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. According to a lot here, the answer is a resounding no.
You have to want to support something completely unheard of in a society like our own. That is, unregulated, unlimited, unquestioned rights to something. No 'rights' in society extend that far. None.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. What is it to you...?
You seem to spend a great deal of time discussing an issue that doesn't affect you at all. Why is that...exactly?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. can a person be pro-choice, anti-Roe?
I think Roe is a bad decision, inasmuch as it created a Constitutional right where none really existed. But I am for keeping abortion legal at the State level.

I would also support a Constitutional Amendment which specifically guaranteed a woman's right to choose. But, intellectually, I think Roe is deeply flawed decision. Some think because I oppose Roe I am prolife, but that's not accurate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. What about Roe is deeply flawed?
I consider it one of the most poetic and thoughtful decisions ever placed down by the courts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. well...
I believe that it was a "result oriented" decision. I think the decision is a good example of judges trying to do the right thing- that is, legalizing abortion- but without a real constitutional basis to support that decision. I do not think that judges should be creating rights when they are not specified in the constitution.

Otherwise what is to prevent the Court from one day making a decision you don't like that has no basis in law?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The Court in part defines laws.
Which is why it is paramount that the SCOTUS needs to be liberal in its makeup.

Abortion is not banned by the Constitution, and the US constitution implies rights even when they're not explicit. I don't need a law to say I can run around naked in my house, for instance. The only thing about Roe v. Wade, which many here would not like, is that it (in my opinion very persuasively and poeticly) lays out the argument for viability, and if there ever was a Constitutional ammendment it would most likely do the same thing (thus theoretically weakening the abortion argument, at least among the more radical views that reject viability here).
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. The Court...
...not you. :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. maybe you can do some of your famous quoting
The only thing about Roe v. Wade, which many here would not like, is that it (in my opinion very persuasively and poeticly) lays out the argument for viability ...

Would you copy and paste that ARGUMENT for us from Blackmun J.'s reasons?

Ta.

... if there ever was a Constitutional ammendment it would most likely do the same thing (thus theoretically weakening the abortion argument, at least among the more radical views that reject viability here).

And that, of course, makes not a stitch of sense. Constitutions do not "lay out arguments", for the love of mike. And constitutions only "weaken arguments" to the extent that the arguments are based on the constitutions. If your Constitution permitted slavery, my argument against slavery would not suffer a jot or tittle.


I'll be eagerly awaiting the quotation(s) from Roe that you are relying on.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Section 9?
Have you even read Roe V. Wade? Here's a link to it, I am not copying the whole decision here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113 Read it, read the footnotes. :)

Anyway, if something is Constitutional then judges must take that into account in their judicial decisions. In other words, if slavery was constitutional your arguments against it to the courts would be bunk unless slavery was removed from the constitution. The same with abortion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. I give up; section 9?
I have read Blackmun J.'s reasons more times than you've shaved, I'd bet.

I didn't ask you to "copy the whole decision". I asked you to quote what you were referring to when you said:

The only thing about Roe v. Wade, which many here would not like, is that it (in my opinion very persuasively and poeticly) lays out the argument for viability ...

-- by which I took you to mean "the argument for viability as the point at which the state has a compelling interest in a fetus/pregnancy".

Discussion of that question does not account for the entire body of the decision. What the Court itself had to say about that question accounted for only a smaller portion of the decision.

You stated that in your opinion the Court laid out the argument "persuasively and poeticly". Why on earth would you be unable to quote the persuasive and poetic argument to which you refer?


Anyway, if something is Constitutional then judges must take that into account in their judicial decisions. In other words, if slavery was constitutional your arguments against it to the courts would be bunk unless slavery was removed from the constitution. The same with abortion.

And that makes about as much sense as the thing you said to which my response was that it made no sense, which I take this to be in response to.



For your convenience, I reproduce below what I take to be the "section 9" to which you refer, from the site I use:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0410_0113_ZO.html
I am not going to play with formatting; italices and emphases will not appear, and things in square brackets will disappear. Perhaps you would just underline or otherwise identify the portion(s) to which you were referring when you said:

it (in my opinion very persuasively and poeticly) lays out the argument for viability



IX

The District Court held that the appellee failed to meet his burden of demonstrating that the Texas statute's infringement upon Roe's rights was necessary to support a compelling state interest, and that, although the appellee presented "several compelling justifications for state presence in the area of abortions," the statutes outstripped these justifications and swept "far beyond any areas of compelling state interest." 314 F.Supp. at 1222-1223. Appellant and appellee both contest that holding. Appellant, as has been indicated, claims an absolute right that bars any state imposition of criminal penalties in the area. Appellee argues that the State's determination to recognize and protect prenatal life from and after conception constitutes a compelling state interest. As noted above, we do not agree fully with either formulation.

A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Constitution does not define "person" in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to "person." The first, in defining "citizens," speaks of "persons born or naturalized in the United States." The word also appears both in the Due Process Clause and in the Equal Protection Clause. "Person" is used in other places in the Constitution: in the listing of qualifications for Representatives and Senators, Art. I, § 2, cl. 2, and § 3, cl. 3; in the Apportionment Clause, Art. I, § 2, cl. 3; in the Migration and Importation provision, Art. I, § 9, cl. 1; in the Emolument Clause, Art. I, § 9, cl. 8; in the Electors provisions, Art. II, § 1, cl. 2, and the superseded cl. 3; in the provision outlining qualifications for the office of President, Art. II, § 1, cl. 5; in the Extradition provisions, Art. IV, § 2, cl. 2, and the superseded Fugitive Slave Clause 3; and in the Fifth, Twelfth, and Twenty-second Amendments, as well as in §§ 2 and 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only post-natally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application.

All this, together with our observation, supra, that, throughout the major portion of the 19th century, prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word "person," as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn. This is in accord with the results reached in those few cases where the issue has been squarely presented. McGarvey v. Magee-Womens Hospital, 340 F.Supp. 751 (WD Pa.1972); Byrn v. New York City Health & Hospitals Corp., 31 N.Y.2d 194, 286 N.E.2d 887 (1972), appeal docketed, No. 72-434; Abele v. Markle, 351 F.Supp. 224 (Conn.1972), appeal docketed, No. 72-730. Cf. Cheaney v. State, ___ Ind. at ___, 285 N.E.2d at 270; Montana v. Rogers, 278 F.2d 68, 72 (CA7 1960), aff'd sub nom. Montana v. Kennedy, 366 U.S. 308 (1961); Keeler v. Superior Court, 2 Cal.3d 619, 470 P.2d 617 (1970); State v. Dickinson, 28 Ohio St.2d 65, 275 N.E.2d 599 (1971). Indeed, our decision in United States v. Vuitch, 402 U.S. 62 (1971), inferentially is to the same effect, for we there would not have indulged in statutory interpretation favorable to abortion in specified circumstances if the necessary consequence was the termination of life entitled to Fourteenth Amendment protection.

This conclusion, however, does not of itself fully answer the contentions raised by Texas, and we pass on to other considerations.

B. The pregnant woman cannot be isolated in her privacy. She carries an embryo and, later, a fetus, if one accepts the medical definitions of the developing young in the human uterus. See Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary 478-479, 547 (24th ed.1965). The situation therefore is inherently different from marital intimacy, or bedroom possession of obscene material, or marriage, or procreation, or education, with which Eisenstadt and Griswold, Stanley, Loving, Skinner, and Pierce and Meyer were respectively concerned. As we have intimated above, it is reasonable and appropriate for a State to decide that, at some point in time another interest, that of health of the mother or that of potential human life, becomes significantly involved. The woman's privacy is no longer sole and any right of privacy she possesses must be measured accordingly.

Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

It should be sufficient to note briefly the wide divergence of thinking on this most sensitive and difficult question. There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. As we have noted, the common law found greater significance in quickening. Physician and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes "viable," that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. The Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," that held sway throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this "ensoulment" theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from the moment of conception. The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a "process" over time, rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the "morning-after" pill, implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs.

In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth, or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth. For example, the traditional rule of tort law denied recovery for prenatal injuries even though the child was born alive. That rule has been changed in almost every jurisdiction. In most States, recovery is said to be permitted only if the fetus was viable, or at least quick, when the injuries were sustained, though few courts have squarely so held. In a recent development, generally opposed by the commentators, some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries. Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem. Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.

52. Tr. of Oral Rearg. 24.

53. We are not aware that in the taking of any census under this clause, a fetus has ever been counted.

54. When Texas urges that a fetus is entitled to Fourteenth Amendment protection as a person, it faces a dilemma. Neither in Texas nor in any other State are all abortions prohibited. Despite broad proscription, an exception always exists. The exception contained in Art. 1196, for an abortion procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother, is typical. But if the fetus is a person who is not to be deprived of life without due process of law, and if the mother's condition is the sole determinant, does not the Texas exception appear to be out of line with the Amendment's command?

There are other inconsistencies between Fourteenth Amendment status and the typical abortion statute. It has already been pointed out, n. 49, supra, that, in Texas, the woman is not a principal or an accomplice with respect to an abortion upon her. If the fetus is a person, why is the woman not a principal or an accomplice? Further, the penalty for criminal abortion specified by Art. 1195 is significantly less than the maximum penalty for murder prescribed by Art. 1257 of the Texas Penal Code. If the fetus is a person, may the penalties be different?

55. Cf. the Wisconsin abortion statute, defining "unborn child" to mean "a human being from the time of conception until it is born alive," Wis.Stat. § 940.04(6) (1969), and the new Connecticut statute, Pub.Act No. 1 (May 1972 special session), declaring it to be the public policy of the State and the legislative intent "to protect and preserve human life from the moment of conception."

56. Edelstein 16.

57. Lader 97-99; D. Feldman, Birth Control in Jewish Law 251-294 (1968). For a stricter view, see I. Jakobovits, Jewish Views on Abortion, in Abortion and the Law 124 (D. Smith ed.1967).

58. Amicus Brief for the American Ethical Union et al. For the position of the National Council of Churches and of other denominations, see Lader 99-101.

59. Hellman & J. Pritchard, Williams Obstetrics 493 (14th ed.1971); Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary 1689 (24th ed.1965).

60. Hellman & Pritchard, supra, n. 59, at 493.

61. For discussions of the development of the Roman Catholic position, see D. Callahan, Abortion: Law, Choice, and Morality 409-447 (1970); Noonan 1.

62. See Brodie, The New Biology and the Prenatal Child, 9 J.Family L. 391, 397 (1970); Gorney, The New Biology and the Future of Man, 15 U.C.L.A.L.Rev. 273 (1968); Note, Criminal Law -- Abortion -- The "Morning-After Pill" and Other Pre-Implantation Birth-Control Methods and the Law, 46 Ore.L.Rev. 211 (1967); G. Taylor, The Biological Time Bomb 32 (1968); A. Rosenfeld, The Second Genesis 138-139 (1969); Smith, Through a Test Tube Darkly: Artificial Insemination and the Law, 67 Mich.L.Rev. 127 (1968); Note, Artificial Insemination and the Law, 1968 U.Ill.L.F. 203.

63. W. Prosser, The Law of Torts 335-338 (4th ed.1971); 2 F. Harper & F. James, The Law of Torts 1028-1031 (1956); Note, 63 Harv.L.Rev. 173 (1949).

64. See cases cited in Prosser, supra, n. 63, at 336-338; Annotation, Action for Death of Unborn Child, 15 A.L.R.3d 992 (1967).

65. Prosser, supra, n. 63, at 338; Note, The Law and the Unborn Child: The Legal and Logical Inconsistencies, 46 Notre Dame Law. 349, 354-360 (1971).

66. Louisell, Abortion, The Practice of Medicine and the Due Process of Law, 16 U.C.L.A.L.Rev. 233, 235-238 (1969); Note, 56 Iowa L.Rev. 994, 999-1000 (1971); Note, The Law and the Unborn Child, 46 Notre Dame Law. 349, 351-354 (1971).
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I'm beginning you doubt your reading comprehension ability.
Edited on Wed May-02-07 07:36 PM by joshcryer
I sincerely mean this because clearly you are just arguing to argue. I wasn't talking about states rights, I was talking about viablity.

Yet you erroneuously state,

-- by which I took you to mean "the argument for viability as the point at which the state has a compelling interest in a fetus/pregnancy".

Which is absolutely not what I was saying in the quoted text. It's not even implied there in the whole of the argument, and I have no idea how on earth you came to that conclusion. Of course, Roe v. Wade does make arguments for that, in section 7, which I will quote here even though it makes my post too long.

The State has a legitimate interest in seeing to it that abortion, like any other medical procedure, is performed under circumstances that insure maximum safety for the patient. This interest obviously extends at least to the performing physician and his staff, to the facilities involved, to the availability of after-care, and to adequate provision for any complication or emergency that might arise. The prevalence of high mortality rates at illegal "abortion mills" strengthens, rather than weakens, the State's interest in regulating the conditions under which abortions are performed. Moreover, the risk to the woman increases as her pregnancy continues. Thus, the State retains a definite interest in protecting the woman's own health and safety when an abortion is proposed at a late stage of pregnancy.

<...>

Only when the life of the pregnant mother herself is at stake, balanced against the life she carries within her, should the interest of the embryo or fetus not prevail. Logically, of course, a legitimate state interest in this area need not stand or fall on acceptance of the belief that life begins at conception or at some other point prior to live birth. In assessing the State's interest, recognition may be given to the less rigid claim that as long as at least potential life is involved, the State may assert interests beyond the protection of the pregnant woman alone.


You stated that in your opinion the Court laid out the argument "persuasively and poeticly". Why on earth would you be unable to quote the persuasive and poetic argument to which you refer?

Oh, I'm not, I have no need to dance around the issue. I was initially referring to the bits that you have quoted already, however, so should I requote them and cause the comments to be unreadable? You're the one asking for the arguments for states rights, not me. I was arguing about viablity. But you already posted the highly poetic language for me, and now you're using rhetoric to try to get some convoluted point across. Go reread our discussion, I wasn't talking about states rights in this subthread.

If you don't think it's a "poetic decision" then I guess we'll have to disagree. I thought the decision on the whole was quite beautiful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. lord bleeding jayzus; you looking in a mirror??
Edited on Wed May-02-07 08:02 PM by iverglas
I'm beginning you doubt your reading comprehension ability.
I sincerely mean this because clearly you are just arguing to argue. I wasn't talking about states rights, I was talking about viablity.


And where the fuck did THIS come from, I ask myself? "State's rights"?? What is he drinking?

And then I see ...

Yet you erroneuously state,
-- by which I took you to mean "the argument for viability as the point at which the state has a compelling interest in a fetus/pregnancy".

Lord bleeding jayzus. Would you consider, please, learning the vocabulary of the subject matter you are discussing?

"The state". Not "A state of the United States". Consult a dictionary. Please.

You said:

The only thing about Roe v. Wade, which many here would not like, is that it (in my opinion very persuasively and poeticly) lays out the argument for viability ...

Well I give up again. What the hell is an "argument for viability"?? If it isn't what I took it to mean -- the argument that viability is the point at which the state's interest in "blah blah poetic nonsense" overrides the woman's interests, what is it???


So, you quote:
The State has a legitimate interest in seeing to it that abortion, like any other medical procedure, is performed under circumstances that insure maximum safety for the patient. This interest obviously extends at least to the performing physician and his staff, to the facilities involved, to the availability of after-care, and to adequate provision for any complication or emergency that might arise. The prevalence of high mortality rates at illegal "abortion mills" strengthens, rather than weakens, the State's interest in regulating the conditions under which abortions are performed. Moreover, the risk to the woman increases as her pregnancy continues. Thus, the State retains a definite interest in protecting the woman's own health and safety when an abortion is proposed at a late stage of pregnancy.

and this is, of course, of the most supreme irrelevance, since it has nothing to do with "viability", no matter what you were referring to when you said it.

And yes, the state has an interest in protecting the health and safety of the members of the society which the state is a particular expression of. I don't really think anybody is challenging that notion. Leastwise, not I.

Only when the life of the pregnant mother herself is at stake, balanced against the life she carries within her, should the interest of the embryo or fetus not prevail. Logically, of course, a legitimate state interest in this area need not stand or fall on acceptance of the belief that life begins at conception or at some other point prior to live birth. In assessing the State's interest, recognition may be given to the less rigid claim that as long as at least potential life is involved, the State may assert interests beyond the protection of the pregnant woman alone.


How DARE you? How dare you quote PART of a paragraph, with the effect that it appears to mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it really means? Do you really not understand that this is what you have done?? There is no possible third explanation here: evil intent, or ignorance. Neither is excusable on the part of anyone choosing to engage in this discussion.

Here is what was actually said:

Three reasons have been advanced to explain historically the enactment of criminal abortion laws in the 19th century and to justify their continued existence.

... The third reason is the State's interest -- some phrase it in terms of duty -- in protecting prenatal life. Some of the argument for this justification rests on the theory that a new human life is present from the moment of conception. The State's interest and general obligation to protect life then extends, it is argued, to prenatal life. Only when the life of the pregnant mother herself is at stake, balanced against the life she carries within her, should the interest of the embryo or fetus not prevail. ...


Texas ARGUED that "a new human life" blah blah, and that "the interest of the embryo or fetus should not prevail" only when the woman's life was at stake.

THE COURT OBVIOUSLY REJECTED THIS. It "found" ONLY that the state had an interest in "protecting prenatal life". And as I was saying -- it did NOT state the reasons why it found this. And then it did NOT state the reasons why that interest overrode the woman's interests.

You have no business even opening your mouth on this subject. Your utter ignorance of the concepts is too blatantly obvious, and your unwillingness to learn about what you are talking about just as obvious.


p.s. -- if you do sincerely want to begin to understand what the issues here are, you need only read the post with which I began the thread in this forum on the state's interest in a pregnancy. Sheesh.







Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. OK, you're arguing two things.
First you're arguing about the states interests (when I was talking about viablity). Then you quote viablity when I was responding to your questions about states interest (in a completely incoherent line of reasoning). You are clearly out of your mind, because it is obvious in this line of discussion that you are incapable of following it coherently. I respond to your questions about states interest, and then you say some bullcrap about viablity. You are just arguing to argue, I think that is pretty well established at this point.

It seems you chose to read whatever convoluted thing you can find in to some thing. Even though there is no basis in reality for what you are reading.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. read my fingers
First you're arguing about the states interests (when I was talking about viablity).

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING about "viability"??????

One cannot "talk about" something without SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT IT???

Then you quote viablity when I was responding to your questions about states interest (in a completely incoherent line of reasoning).

I no longer have the slightest idea what you are trying to talk about, let alone say.

"Viability" is of interest here ONLY BECAUSE it was identified by the US Sup Ct as the CUT-OFF POINT AT WHICH the state's interest outweighs the woman's interests.

You plainly do not have a clue what "the state's interest" means. You do not know that it is THE CENTRAL ISSUE in Roe v. Wade, and in any other case in which the state seeks to legislate a prohibition of or restriction on the exercise of a constitutional right.

You are clearly out of your mind

Well, I can think of somewhere you're going to be out of.

I respond to your questions about states interest, and then you say some bullcrap about viablity.

At this point you have me rolling in the aisles. Never have I ever witnessed such a brilliant impersonation of a complete fool.

It seems you chose to read whatever convoluted thing you can find in to some thing. Even though there is no basis in reality for what you are reading.

Hahaha. Yes, me who read what was said in Roe v. Wade and REPORTED IT ACCURATELY, as compared to someone who read what was said in Roe v. Wade and either

(a) didn't understand a blessed word of what he read,

or

(b) understood perfectly and chose, consciously and intentionally, to misrepresent it by quoting only selected bits and pieces that would induce the unknowledgeable reader into the belief that the Court had said the exact opposite of what it did say.

Yes, that's a good one. Time for supper.





Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. If anyone follows the discussion they can plainly see it is you...
...who isn't making any sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. speak for yourself bub
I don't have any problems making sense of iverglas' posts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I do, I cannot handle reading these long rants with little substance.
And believe me, I give people a lot of benefit of the doubt, it is my nature.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. "I cannot handle reading these long rants with little substance"
Then don't. It's that simple. If you "can't handle" debate with iverglas, then bow out.

And that's your opinion about the substance, not a fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. It's not even 'debate' at this point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. and there joshcryer is again 100% absolutely completely correct
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I've been correct this whole time, thanks.
With the ocassional slip up because I'm not used to this line of absurd argumentation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-05-07 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Last word, last word, I get the last word. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. LOL!
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. yet you continue to come back for more? why would that be? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Good question.
Maybe I want to be sure the distortions stop. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. here's the real question
Edited on Tue May-01-07 10:13 AM by iverglas
Not: what is to prevent the Court from one day making a decision you don't like that has no basis in law?

But: what is to prevent one of your legislatures from one day making the decision that you will be prohibited from eating pizza, and punished if you do?

Do you think there is anything in your Constitution that guarantees you the "right to eat pizza"?

I sure do. It's called the right to liberty. (P.S. - you can call it the right to privacy if you like, although I see no need to. My own constitution expressly guarantees the right to security of the person, which makes things a little clearer.)

But if you disagree, then you must agree that your legislatures are entitled to enact a law prohibiting you from eating pizza.

A society in which a legislature could, entirely constitutionally, prohibit people from eating pizza -- barring, of course, lethal contamination of an ingredient used in making all pizzas and only in making pizzas -- would be what I would regard as a fascist society. The arbitrary use of power to interfere in the personal liberty of individuals. Kinda the poster child for fascism.

If you don't think that your legislatures could arbitrarily prohibit you from eating pizza -- if you don't think that your constitutional courts ought to strike down such a prohibition immediately as being unconstitutional, because it is an unjustified interference in the exercise of individual rights and freedoms guaranteed by your Contitution, then I have no clue how you imagine that your legislatures could arbitrarily prohibit women from having abortions.

If a legislature may not arbitrarily prohibit women from having abortions, obviously it is because there is constitutional protection of the choice being made. Constitutions, as interpreted by the courts assigned that task, are what determine what legislatures may and may not do.

And just by the bye, "there is no right to abortion in the Constitution" is just about the all-time favourite line of the extreme right wing in the US. If I found myself in that company, I'd be seriously considering leaving the room.

Not that a stopped clock might not be right ... one just might want to think long and hard before relying on it.

But hey, maybe you just don't like the whole idea of the judicial review of the constitutionality of legislative action ...



Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. A simple question, are you against immunization laws?
I don't think you really understand what laws are *supposed* to do, and why they are important for society. Sure, they can get it wrong sometimes (as in the case of these very short abortion windows that states have). But that's for the society to fix.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. actually...
yes I think a legislature could make a law preventing me from eating pizza. Are you saying I have a constitutional right to eat pizza? Obviously that is not in the constitution.

You are basically saying that you have a constitutional right to do whatever you want. While I love pizza, it's not a right. Ideally, the State I chose to live in would not make a dumb law like that- but I see no legal impediment to stopping them. I think I am much more a believer in state's rights than most people here--in that I believe the state's can do almost whatever they want as long as they don't violate certain, specific constitutional rights.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. so, a strict constructionist, eh?

Not fond of activist judges? And hey, how 'bout those "states' rights", eh?

I understand this sort of thing is common on the liberal left in the US ...

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. technically....
yes I guess I am. I think it's dangerous to let judges read stuff into the constitution that is not there. Otherwise, the power lies in judges, as opposed to the constitution itself. Achieving a good result based on a false premise is not my idea of justice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Truly a bad decision, and torturously worded, but clearly towards a good end
I disagree about taking it to the States, it needs to be Federal for a clear set of standards nationwide.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That's the hard part, I agree it should be Federal...
...however, if it was Federal no doubt it would've been shot down by now. The "red states" love their BS. The term limits on abortions in many states are ridiculous and they should be raised significantly.

It's sort of why it was such an elegant decision, because it guarantees, 100%, the right of abortion to certain limits, but it also "respects states rights." It's a concession that probably should've never been made, but at that time I think it was the only way it'd work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Are you planning on having an abortion...?
:shrug: As I'm really confused that one such as yourself spends SO MUCH time posting in this forum, discussing the rights of women, while simultaneously denigrating and being disparaging of women.

Is this the beginning of a trend? Young guys that will NEVER have an abortion sharing their views on it AD NAUSEUM. Perhaps you should create a zine. Abortion for men. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Three threads?
Edited on Tue May-01-07 01:39 AM by joshcryer
You know, I probably wouldn't spend so much time here if I wasn't insulted as much and my views distorted beyond reason. Already people are posting threads of evil evil joshcryer all over the place as if I'm some great satan. :) But I'm staying out of those threads for my own sanity, though I do think I have a right to defend myself from the distortions.

edit: oh nos I was wrong I posted in FOUR threads, omg. I'm such an evil person lying about how many threads I posted in!
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Aren't we the little hypocrite...?
Weren't you the one that said this:

joshcryer (1000+ posts) Fri Apr-27-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. As if anyone cares what someone on a forum thinks you think of them.


Yet you spend so much time here because you're insulted? Wow. Really. :eyes: Yes, of course I believe you. Personally, I tend not to return places where people don't treat me well.

Maybe you should propose an s&m board, apparently you are into pain and degradation. :spray:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes, ideas shouldn't be distorted.
And I pretty much admitted in the amusingly quoted "flames" thread that I had no problem handling the flames. The key is that I reserve the right to correct the distortions and insults. :)

I have no problem clarifying my position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Blah, blah, blah...
...someone either likes to write and read their own words, has a rather elevated sense of self or (what I suspect)...gets a sick thrill from arguing with people.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. repeating the same words, same unlinked quotes isn't clarifying
Or maybe it is. It clarifies the non-validity of what you say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. Oh there you go again, distorting what poster said.
How DARE you copy a direct quote back at poor joshcryer? You are going to make josh cry!
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
78. Typical.
There are many screwed up males who are preoccupied with reproductive choice. More to the point, they want to vicariously make the choice for women. I don't get it, but it does beg for soul-searching and self-insight on the part of the meddling males.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
31. what colour is orange: true or false?
Is Roe v. Wade Pro-Choice?

Purple.

Roe v. Wade is a judicial decision, or opinion. Judicial opinions might be described as wise, foolish, consistent with precedent, well-reasoned, incomprehensible ... stuff like that. What they are, by definition, is authoritative (in the jurisdiction in which they are defined as such).

"Pro-choice" is a description of a political opinion. Political opinions could also be described as wise, foolish, etc. But they have little in common with judicial opinions. They are opinions about public policy, and often express adherence to a particular cause, a challenge to existing public policy or support for existing public policy.

One might ask whether a judicial opinion advances a political cause.

The question, of course, is what the cause is that "pro-choice" opinion adheres to. And there we encounter the infinite variety of human life.

Is cgrindley a liberal? a progressive? a Democrat? a libertarian left-winger? an authoritarian right-winger? a libertarian right-winger? an authoritarian left-winger?

Eye of beholder.

Not that there aren't criteria that may be generally agreed upon. But I, for instance, have never really been able to figure out what the hell "liberal" means when it is used in discourse in the United States. So I'd be hard pressed to say whether cgrindley or anyone else is one.

"Pro-choice" means, generally, the opinion that the state should not interfere in women's exercise of their right to make their own reproductive choices.

Well, "liberal" may mean the opinion that the state should use its powers to redistribute wealth for the benefit of the disadvantaged. How far? At what point is a line crossed where a person who advocates some redistribution of wealth advocates so little that s/he is too far to the right to be a liberal; and conversely, at what point is the line crossed where s/he is too far to the left to be a liberal?

No thinking person suggests that the state may not interfere in any exercise of any right. I believe in the right to end one's life as one sees fit; I also believe that the state has a responsibility to stop people from ending their lives if they are plainly incompetent to make that decision. I believe in the right to say what one wishes; I also believe that the state has a responsibility to stop people from advertising snake oil to cure cancer. Just about everybody believes that there is a point where a public interest overrides an individual interest, and thus where the state may interfere in the exercise of an individual right.

Everybody has his/her own view of whether someone else is a liberal or not. Ditto whether someone else is pro-choice or not.

I would say that it is obvious that the decision in Roe v. Wade advanced the pro-choice cause in the US by several leagues, since it ruled out state interference in the exercise of women's rights at the points where the vast majority of women seek to exercise those rights -- approximately the first 3/5 of a pregnancy, as the ruling is now interpreted and applied.

I also believe that it has serious anti-choice elements about it, the great big one being that it assumed, without citing any argument or giving any indication of why it accepted the argument, that the state has an interest in a woman's pregnancy. And then it did the same on the question of whether that interest is compelling, and why it would be compelling at one point and not another, and why it found the interest to be compelling at a certain point.

I consider this -- this bald assertion that the state has an interest in a woman's pregnancy, and the bald assertion that the state's interest overrides the woman's interest in exercising her rights -- to be anti-choice at its core. It amounts to arbitrary interference in the exercise of rights, and that is "anti-choice" no matter what rights, and what kinds of choices, we are talking about.

Nonetheless, the decision does recognize the woman's interests, and her right to make choices as she sees fit that advance those interests as she understands them, to an extent that makes the decision an extremely important recognition of women's rights and entitlement to exercise those rights.

So my answer is still "purple". The question doesn't make sense.


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Orange is a non-zero value, thus true. ;)
"Pro-choice" is a description of a political opinion. Political opinions could also be described as wise, foolish, etc. But they have little in common with judicial opinions.

So iverglas does not think that Roe v. Wade is pro-choice, seemingly?

"Pro-choice" means, generally, the opinion that the state should not interfere in women's exercise of their right to make their own reproductive choices.

Then Roe v. Wade, by your definition, cannot be pro-choice because it explicitly gives the right to the state to interfere in reproductive choices (by passing term limit laws and so on).

I also believe that it has serious anti-choice elements about it, the great big one being that it assumed, without citing any argument or giving any indication of why it accepted the argument, that the state has an interest in a woman's pregnancy.

...

Have you read Roe v. Wade? The argument is the most persusavive argument I have ever read handed down by a court. They freaking invoke the old philosophers and use some really toughtful language. It does lay down why it thinks the way it does. And I cannot believe you'd say "without citing any argument," when it's right there in the decision.

It amounts to arbitrary interference in the exercise of rights, and that is "anti-choice" no matter what rights, and what kinds of choices, we are talking about.

You cannot name any rights, not even constitutional that are not "arbitrarily interfered" with, because they simply do not exist. You cannot have unlimited gun rights (thank God), you cannot yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. You are essentially arguing for unlimited abortion rights which is proposterous as those who argue for unlimited gun rights. Really, you are.

So my answer is still "purple". The question doesn't make sense.

Of course it makes sense, you're just being snarky. :) You're the only one here who seemingly doesn't think the question makes sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-02-07 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. I guess I had the right answer

cgrindley's work here appears to be done.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. WTF? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. no one supports the murder of babies
many people do support the right of a woman to terminate a pregnancy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. search
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
81. :
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. well, I'm dying of curiosity

What does that mean???

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MiserableFailure Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-07 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
83. It's not completely pro-choice
Edited on Wed Jul-25-07 09:15 PM by MiserableFailure
By allowing states to ban abortions in the trimester except for health/life reasons, it is not completely pro-choice. mostly pro-choice though

fwiw, i support people's rights to get an abortion in the third trimester for any reason as well. but because i support parental notification laws, i guess i'm not "pro-choice". but hillary supports parental notification laws as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
84. Yes -- of course -- because EACH FEMALE makes her own choice --
that's all Roe vs Wade does is provide an option --

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-28-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. PS: Pro-Choice is an activist group just as Pro-Life is --
If someone decides NOT to have an abortion does that make Roe vs Wade "Pro-Life" . . .

The thread-maker wants to play games . . .

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Choice Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC