What will the US be like after Roe?

[LiberalPartisan]

I'm convinced that two years hence Roe will be overturned, placing all abortion laws at the state level. What do folks here envision the US to be like after Roe?

I can see many of the Southern states enacting laws so stringent as to be in effect total bans on abortion. But abortion will remain safe and legal in many other states. What I can also envision is a forced birth state charging a woman with murder if she went out of state to have an abortion in a free state. Will an underground railraod develop? Will physicians be monitored? Will the sale of an early pregnancy test trigger a visit by the police, and the woman's name entered into a registry for regular checkups?

I fear the world depicted in The Handmaid's Tale is becoming a reality.

Thoughts?

[rusty charly]

1. internet purchase

of morning-after pills, etc? or some other kind of "after" treatment?

[LiberalPartisan]

2. They'll ban that too

They're against a woman having any soverigny over her body. They see women as chattle.

[zonmoy]

54. not so much chattle as

breeders needed only for breeding more brainwashed fundies.

[acmejack]

7. You know they will be widely available on the black market.

You cannot ban what the people demand. Didn't work for Volmstead, hasn't worked for illicit drugs, history tells us it won't work now.

It will finally awaken the somnambulant citizenry, one would think.

[HockeyMom]

21. Just like Prohibition

Did the moralists stop people from drinking with a constitutional amendment banning alcohol?

[Katherine Brengle]

49. But this is exactly what women were fighting against 40 years ago--

Right now, a woman can receive a safe, sanitary abortion done in a qualified medical office--without the protections Roe offers, we will once again be forced to put our lives in grave danger to have this procedure done.

A legal abortion is done in a controlled environment, like any other surgery or medical procedure. Women will get sick and die if they have to have illegal abortions--it's very dangerous.

[NVMojo]

3. wire hangars will be back in use ...

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Either there will be lots of illegal abortions or lots more orphanages

[catzies]

6. Bush called them "maternity group homes" in the debates in 2004.

And yes, that's exactly what he wants. Homes for unwed mothers churning out the next generation of soldiers.

[Iris]

29. Perhaps couples from other countries will adopt US children?

Rather than the current trend of US couples adopting internationally.

[catzies]

5. Then the anti-choicers will take their battle to the states

They have already started in CA. Prop. 73 (on our ballot next week) will amend the state constitution and define "when life begins."

The backers of prop. 73 know exactly what they're doing by cloaking it in the sheep's clothing of "parental notification." Their true desire is to have prop. 73 passed & in place, so that when Roe is overturned it will then be very fast & easy to outlaw abortion in CA.

Without knowing what's going on in other states, I'll bet the same type of thing is already happening.

[HockeyMom]

8. If they legislate "life begins at conception"

then anything that even remotely might prevent implantation of a fertilized egg will be considered abortion - the Pill, IUD, Morning After, etc.

Besides which, if they can strike down Roe, they can strike down Griswold too.

[Realityhack]

17. Ok... I find this stuff frigtening to... but that makes no sense.

If life begins at conception... things like the pill that prevent conception... ummm... prevent life. They don't kill it. Pills that prevent implanation of the fertalized egg would of course be banned.

Now that might not stop them... but the argument that it is a logical extention is mistaken IMO.

[Katherine Brengle]

50. They will do these things--

It might not make sense to us, but if this abortion ban is upheld, more will follow, and then more stringent laws about birth control will also follow.

There are already groups pushing for this--don't let yourself be blind. We don't see the logic, but proponents of these laws do.

[Recursion]

67. Depends...

By "conception" do you mean "fertilization of the egg by a sperm" or "implantation of a fertilized egg on the hysteral wall"? If a woman is on the pill and one of her eggs becomes fertilized, there are people who call that a very-early-term "abortion".

Stupid? yes. Inconsistent or self-contradictory? No.

[Blutodog]

45. Right !!

Griswold is the real target always has been. This is a gang of people that hates the very thouight of privacy any privacy.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catzies]

24. Welcome to DU, and sorry but you're wrong. Read Prop. 73 and vote NO

next week! :hi:

[Megahurtz]

60. No, Right!

Prop 73 never passed! :woohoo:

Not in California!

[melody]

That is what will start the new US Civil War n/t

[chelsea0011]

9. Lot's of infighting within the states trying to make legal or illegal

abortions. It will be hell as some states allow abortions but have to compromise by only allowing in-resident abortions. Then you will have lawsuits trying to get abortions outlawed in states that have legalized them saying it is murder. Then doctors will be tried and sent to jail. It will be hell on earth as the remaining clinics are blown up because the court has rules they can protest and harass to their hearts content. Home town terrorism becomes a way of life.

[Gloria]

10. The Underground Railroad.....it will be like Chihuahua Rescue...

ferrying women to other states.....

NOW will have to gear up its training for home abortions using easily purchased equipment....

[kestrel91316]

63. We veterinarians can provide antibiotics and help with sterilizing

necessary equipment.

And private premises.

[On Par]

11. If Roe Is Overturned....There Will Be War !

It will be the last straw that pushes this populous overboard. The civil rights battles, the forced busing of students, that was child's play compared to what will happen if Roe is overturned.

[abluelady]

12. Underground Railroads, Again

In order to help poor women have abortions safely, I can see a large underground movement being used. I am happy to be one of the first volunteers to help someone.

[LiberalPartisan]

13. Same here!! [eom]

[cshore]

57. I agree...

But I also fear that the government will attempt to legislate even the MOVEMENTS of pregnant women from state to state. We'll have to be very cautious with the new, and possibly inevitable, Underground Railroad.

[newyawker99]

70. Hi cshore!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mestup]

14. Access is so limited, Roe is all but overturned already

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/yourstate/whodecides/states/index.cfm

Click on any State.
Example: Kansas
"96 percent of Kansas counties have no abortion provider"

[catzies]

25. You're right. They rendered it so by chipping away at it over the years

People are so complacent when they say, "Oh, they'll never overturn Roe!"

Great link. :thumbsup:

[cali]

52. Absolutely right. Roe has been chipped away in the

post Casey era. Casey chanted the standard allowing states to impose strict regulations. Still, Roe is not essentially already overturned. The number of abortions performed in this country should tell you that.

I've got to say, I think the OP and most of the posters here are flat wrong. I also think people tend to get a perverse thrill out of scaring themselves with boogeymen scenes. Yes, the wingnuts would like to impose draconian SD style laws throughout the nation, but they don't have anywhere near the numbers to do it. Check out polling report for years of polling data on abortion and related issues. SD just did us a huge favor. It's a law that goes way too far, and it's a big motivating kick in the ass to the complacent pro choice majority that'll get them voting for dems. BTW, SD's law will not go into effect.

While everyones chicken littleing about SD, there is a real danger to Roe. It's the federal PBA law that will be heard this term. Like Casey in '92, if this law is upheld, it'll open the door to onerous restrictions in lots of states.

I thought the pukes were smarter than this; guess they couldn't keep SD on the plantation.

[bluethruandthru]

16. too many people don't remember life before Roe

I think once we go back (and, yes unfortunately, I believe we will)to the dark ages of back alley abortions and coat hangers...alot of so-called "right to lifers" eyes will be opened. What's the old saying about those not remembering history are doomed to repeat it?

[Agnomen]

18. It all hinges on money

Before abortion was legal in US, my high school friends got to go to England during school term. They got abortions there. I don't know what poor women did - back room illegal abortions performed by third year medical students and worse?

[HockeyMom]

22. What my aunt did

in 1945. She was a middle class, married, grandmother who didn't want any more kids. She paid her doctor to say she had a heart condition which carrying a pregnancy to term would put her life at risk. It was called a therapeutic abortion and if you have enough MONEY it was easy to get.

[Agnomen]

23. Yes, therapeutic abortions were also an option

but of course it involved financial means.

[jaxx]

19. Coat hangers, dirty tables and infection.

Same as it was before Roe.

[Lorax]

20. The Handmaid's Tale

I've often told people I know that The Handmaid's Tale could happen but no one ever wants to believe me.

[newyawker99]

32. Hi Lorax!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[WildClarySage]

26. Women will die. Having sex will be a sin punishable by death.

Wealthy women will still go to Europe and other places for their abortions. Many underground women's groups will exist that will teach and/or provide homeopathic abortions, and abortifacent recipes will flourish on the internet, rather like bomb-making websites do now, , but many desperate women will lie (or forget, or never really know for certain) about their due dates in order to attempt the homeopathy and without proper medical supervision will bleed to death. Some men whose wives/girlfriends have no access to abortion will attempt to 'beat it out of her'. Others will turn to quacks to provide back alley abortions and they too will die. And for all the rhetoric about "life" these reich-wingers will say it's what she gets for spreading her legs. So for all intents and purposes, sex will be a capital crime.

[zonmoy]

55. of course the same people who will ban abortions

will undoubtedly call for strict controls as to what can be on the internet thus ruining that as a source of information.

[Iris]

27. Life will be pretty much the same for middle and upper class women.

Poor women and younger women will have babies they don't want.

[slackmaster]

28. Like it was painted by Hieronymus Bosch

[Demogal67]

30. It will be horrific it it comes true

I agree with all that you said. I think it will be devastating for poor women particularly. I just can't believe that after 32 years, we have to worry about this again. What's next? should we undo the civil rights act?
Does anyone know what NOW or NARAL or Planned Parenthood plan to do if this becomes reality? Is there a back-up plan?
UGH

Demogal67

[newyawker99]

33. Hi Demogal67!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Demogal67]

36. Hey there - sorry so late

Oh Hi there, sorry I'm posting this so late.....Works been nuts lately and I havent had a lot of spare time. Cooolll site...I think I'm gonna like it here:toast: right back at ya

[bleedingheart]

31. As always people will get really RICH...

because the ones who capitalize on the situation will make money on arranging for women to leave the country for abortions. That way it is legal and no one goes to jail.

In fact, travel agencies will probably have specially designed weekend Spa and Abortion trips...

The poor will have babies or die trying to abort.

[politicat]

39. Makes me wonder if there will be pre-flight preg tests.

Since it would be technically illegal to go out of the country to commit a crime, will they make every woman who is going to a country where abortion is legal pee on a stick before she leaves?

And when will miscarriages become questionable?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicat]

35. Menstrual extraction will come back into vogue.

Since the tools needed are easy to procure, and the knowledge is not very difficult to obtain, I can see a ME renaissance.

[Demogal67]

37. Has NOW or PP sent out any info on the procedure (ME)

Just wondering....so we can be prepared. Why wait till it's too late.
I think we've just got to take matter's into our own hands ladies. looks like Scalito will be getting in too.....no one in DC seems to have any backbone to squash that freak either. So now we've got two anti-choicers added to the bench. Bushy has 3 years to go......how much you wanna bet that he'll get to replace a few more....ughhhh

[politicat]

38. Not that I've seen, but instructions are available online.

It's definitely one of those things that you need to make some good friends for - it's not something you can do for yourself.

Back when I was in a monosexual relationship, such a worry never occurred to me - for one, she and I could have been each other's partner, and for two, pregnancy was not a real worry - but now that I'm in a disexual, sterile relationship I'm going to have to build a collective, I guess...

ETA: Here are some links
http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/menstruation/extraction.html
http://www.fwhc.org/bookofchoices.htm

and on the history: http://www.fwhc.org/selfhelp.htm

[MountainLaurel]

41. Thank you for the links

This sort of information is something we all need to be aware of.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

42. Eugenics...forced abortions.

Sick outlook.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demigoddess]

59. i have often thought that is going to be the end result

not immediately but if a plague, famine or disease ever comes along to give them an excuse to limit the population, they will begin to decide who MUST get an abortion. Then it will be only rich white people who are allowed to have babies. Slowly and gradually of course.

[Quantess]

61. good plot in a fiction story.

That would make a great sci-fi novel. In reality, rich people of whatever race (money trumps race), will always have the easiest access to abortion. Poverty-stricken third world countries typically have poor access to birth control, and poor women are more likely to stay pregnant because they can't afford an abortion.

[Blutodog]

44. Nat'l law banning Abortion would be next

What most people don't understand is that once Roe is over turned Congress can and probably will pass a Nat'l law banning all Abortions in the U.S. and Bu$h will sign it. This will end legal abortion. The right has stated this as a goal after Roe is over turned.

[Ilsa]

46. Orphanages like in Romania? Remember those poor, beautiful

children, unwanted, unloved, no help. Sure, some will be adopted by childless couples, but I can't help but wonder if it will look like that eventually.

My friend's son and his wife adopted a little girl from Russia. Her mother tried to abort her in the back of a cab.

[HockeyMom]

47. You don't need to look at Romania,

look at what it was like HERE decades ago. State run orphanages for unadoptable babies and children. Ever see the movie "Annie"? That was set during the Great Depression. My father-in-law used to tell me stories about orphanages. His father and uncle were brought up in an orphanage. It was not because they were unwanted "illegitimate" children. Their parents were married, but because of hard times could no longer support them. They placed them in orphanages (different ones) when they were 10 and 12. From what I have heard and read, this was not uncommon back then. Not many couples want to adopt older children. My grandfather-in-law and his brother remained in that orphanage until they turned 18.

Dad said his father told him, "You wouldn't want to put a DOG into one of those places." Government run orphanages. That is what is down the road. THEIR tax dollars will be supporting all these unfortunate unwanted kids.

They cannot see the forest for the trees. Just like the War.

[Nobody]

48. I have often wondered what happens to children

when they turn 18 in an orphanage.

There is a woman in my metro area who finally got funding and land to build an orphanage. She refused to discuss how the place would be run, playing the HOW DARE YOU question my devotion to the poor! card at every turn.

Any time someone asked any question at all about who would be placed in the orphanage, how long they'd stay, adoptions, funding, anything at all, out would come her deck of cards with 52 copies of the same card.

It's the Gift of Mary Home and I'm worried that it's going to be like the orphanage depicted in Annie.

My grandmother lucked out big time. She was left on the steps of the New York Foundling Hospital in NYC around the turn of the century and was sent west on the orphan train. There were lots of farm families needed children to be extra hands. Grandma was adopted by a loving family. Others weren;t so lucky and were treated like indentured servants or worse and never adopted.

[HockeyMom]

51. What happened when they turned 18?

They were given a small nominal sum of money and a set of clothes. Very much like getting out of prision. Goodbye, and good luck. Case closed.

[Nobody]

53. That's what I was afraid of

That doesn't do much to get you started. Having a family means you have a place to stay when you're starting out and aren't making a living wage yet, while you're applying for your first job, while making the contacts you need to begin a career.

I hope they at least had a half-decent education to make up for how far behind they're starting. I'm thinking in terms of finding a job and where you'd get the money to put a deposit on an apartment.

The woman behind Gift Of Mary has never said anything at all about preparing the kids for life after orphanage.

Maybe that's why we're liberals. We tend to take the long view of things.

[zonmoy]

56. actually the right would turn any government run orphanages over

to the fundamentalist churches to run making them much worse.

[Leeny]

58. Handmaid's Tale

It surprises me how many women, especially women of my age group (I'm 46), have not read or even heard of The Handmaid's Tale. It's like Orwell for women. Scared the shit out of me.

I believe that we will be treated as breeders. I believe that we will see lots more abandoned babies. There will be, if there isn't already, a huge black market for the morning after pill and other forms of contraception.

Of course we could all just abstain from premarital sex, stop thinking for ourselves, and enjoy the Rapture, right?

[kestrel91316]

62. I predict a federal law that will prohibit interstate travel by

pregnant women for purposes of obtaining an abortion.

[LiberalPartisan]

65. Ohio is trying to go there now...

Brinkman's bill would go much further. It would make performing an abortion or transporting a woman across state lines to have an abortion a felony.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-16-abortion-states_x.htm

[emal2me]

69. Ohio should be careful what they wish for...

In rural areas and especially in the Bible belt before Row v. Wade, if a woman has a spontaneous abortion or trying to take care of a botched one, they often had difficulty finding a physician to help them. Doctors feared being accused of inducing the abortion of which could get them arrested and end their career. Because of this women sometimes laid on emergency room tables and bled to death.

With the passing of time people have forgotten such things. I wonder why those who are against structured family living never tell this.

[BlueStorm]

64. I was talking to my cousin the other day

while visiting my grandpa in the hospital. I mentioned the SD legislation banning abortions and she actually said that it was good, that abortion was murder, blah blah with all the RW rhetoric.

I am just curious as to what she would do if RvsW was overturned and abortion became illegal. If she were to get pregnant and is unwilling to have the child, would she find it easy to give it up for adoption. If she should be hooked up with a boyfriend that doesn't want to be a dad and would do anything to get rid of a baby, what would happen to her? She is only 18 and she and her family (My aunt and uncle) are very anti-choice but I don't think that these people really thought so much about the consequences.

It's all about control. Women have always been oppressed and made nothing more than sexual objects... there for man's pleasure and needs never mind that they are human beings with very much a mind.

Blu

[Quantess]

71. Well, yes, but it goes deeper than that, doesn't it.

There is much more that could be said.:hi:

[Recursion]

66. A post-Roe world

OTOH, in a post-Roe world maybe we could actually ask judicial candidates what their opinion on the Constitutional status of choice is; because of Roe they can dodge the subject pretty easily.

Although I wince every time the right complains about "judicial activism", they do have a point in one sense: a judicial fiat that doesn't genuinely reflect society's values is bound to cause some problems. The simple fact is that a lot of Americans don't completely support a woman's right to choose any more than they support a complete ban on reproductive medicine. As much as you or I may wish they did, they don't. And it's another sad truth that if 5 of 9 unaccountable justices can recognize the right to choice, 5 of 9 can just as easily take it away. Short of a clear legislative act from Congress on the question (which I feel safe saying *none* of us want right now), it's all up to how the SCOTUS justices feel about it.

I'm not happy saying that the lives and health of a generation of women are going to have to be sacrificed to let our society's values catch up to the 20th (hell, the 19th) century, but it's a political fact that they can do it.

I'll come out and say it: if Roe falls now, through the Supreme Court, the question will probably be punted back to the states. If it goes back to the states, I can at least go live in a state that values human freedom and choice. YES, I KNOW not everyone has the luxury I do of pulling up tent pegs and moving somewhere else. But the other option I see is the anti-choice forces not getting Roe undone under this Administration, getting even more howling mad, and pushing for and quite possibly getting either a Federal law or a Constitutional amendment saying women do not have full control over their bodies. The lesser of two evils is still evil, but if I have to choose between 50% of American women being enslaved and 100%, I'd have to sadly go with 50%.

Don't hold your breath for a big win in November... the paranoid in me says there's a big choice shoe the right is still waiting to drop between now and then.

[emal2me]

68. Railroaded into Prison

Imagine you’re on a jury and before you is a defendant up on serious charges. He could get a lengthy prison sentence. His mother, a known drug addict and alcoholic, has established that she never wanted him. She wanted an abortion but it was illegal. She wanted a morning after pill but it was illegal too. She didn’t want to put him up for adoption either. Having been deigned her basic human right to reproductive choices she was left with no alternative but to raise him the best way she could. But his rearing was terrible as he was exposed to a life of neglect and abuse.

His attorney argues that society has forced life upon him. In effect he was born into a kind of forced servitude. The attorney further argues that society has no right to railroad this individual into prison just because he didn’t turn out as society wished and that society has to accept responsibility for their actions and let him go.

My question is: Would you let him go? I would. Lawyers are passing this scenario around in their circles and it’s a good one because we can’t force life on someone and later jerk the rug out from under them just because we didn't like the outcome.

[emal2me]

72. Before Roe v. Wade

Most people are too young to remember what it was like before Row v. Wade. For one thing, the affluent in large urban communities always had access to a safe abortion. This is what it will go back to if Roe v. Wade is overturned. The law knew who those doctors were but didn’t dare do anything about it. That’s because the affluent wanted those doctors around. Not only for any mishaps at home but more importantly to take care of any little secret they might be trying to hide. There was little to no opposition because the police chief and his friends had access to those doctors too. Get it? Meanwhile, women without any means took dangerous chances and sometimes died like dogs. Actually, that’s not quite true, dogs got better treatment.

Another thing not known was how dangerous traveling could turn out to be while pregnant. For instance if you had a spontaneous abortion you might not be able to get any help. That’s because doctors in rural conservative communities feared the law would accuse them of inducing the abortion. This could lead to arrest and the end of their career. Although rare, there were cases where women in that predicament bled to death in the hospitals emergency room. This is reality. People today are leaning into a nasty left hook thrown by those who are anti choice, and anti women.


Women are under attack. But there is something you can do. Join Naral Pro-choice America.
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/

[Kerrytravelers]

73. I'm not sure how strong Roe v. Wade is among liberals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x3924

[mephie00]

74. I think many pro-lifers would be dissapointed....

One thing to keep in mind, in 1973, Roe v. Wade was a 7 - 2 decision. Conservatives on the court were in the majority. Over 30 years later, I think people certainly tend to be more pro-choice than there were in 1973. Taking this into consideration, I think that if it was left up to the states, most states would keep abortion legal. I'm sure the blue states would keep it legal, the swings states, and possibly a good portion of the red states would keep it legal.

Keep South Dakota in mind. Roe v. Wade didn't stop South Dakota. And South Dakota stands alone. No other states instantly followed it's example and over the years no other state pulled the same thing. South Dakota did not join a group of states, and no sates have joined it.

I think what would happen is that the US congress would try and ram some legislation through... like the previously failed ban on partial birth abortion. Supreme Court would not be able to rule it unconstitutional second time around.

[MountainLaurel]

75. Actually, SD doesn't stand alone

As of last week, Louisiana has joined it with a law signed by the governor. And other states (OH, MO) have laws in the works.

[Lars39]

76. From NARAL:

http://www.naral.org/news/press-releases/2006/pr06182006_louisianagov.html

"As of June 18, 2006, legislatures in 14 states have considered or are considering abortion bans that would outlaw abortion in all or most circumstances: AL, GA, IN, KY, LA, MS, MO, OH, OK, RI, SC, SD, TN, WV. On June 13, the Ohio House of Representatives held a hearing on a bill that would ban abortion."

[boolean]

78. Glad you think that...

But you're way off. I wouldn't consider the 7 back then to be anywhere near as conservative as the current neo-cons on the bench. The US supreme court has shifted vastly to the right thanks to Reagan and chimpy. Even Clinton didn't exactly put tree hugging liberals up there.

One more appointment by a christian wingnut like chimpy is all they need to overturn Roe. Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts are all on board.

[boolean]

77. Only if...

It'll only be overturned if one more supreme court judge dies before chimpy gets impeached. I agree that it can happen, but it's not really THAT likely. I give it a 30% chance. John Paul Stevens is getting pretty old...

[mwooldri]

79. Free flights to Canada, Mexico, Europe.

What's Ohio going to know about any fetus being aborted? It's not on any US medical database that they could access... Europe would be good thanks to stringent privacy laws (I couldn't even get my doctors notes from the UK sent to my doctor here - I could read them but take no copies).

Plus other people mentioned "menstrual regulation". Yep, I believe that would come in vogue too. Just like Bangladesh.

America: bringing healthcare to the standard of Bangladesh.

Mark.