I have a paper to write and would LOVE to get y'alls input

[Heddi]

Now, I'm not asking anyone to write my paper for me, but I'm interested in other people's opinion of this matter. I'm fully pro-choice 100% all the way without any restrictions whatsoever. I'm not sure how to look at this issue in an unbiased way and give an answer that really does a service to both the questions, and my pro-choice viewpoints.

Also, if anyone has any links with stats or whatever, feel free to post them so that I can use them in the essay I write (we have to use sources).

Here is the question:


Based on information you gained by reading the text, what control, if any, do you think society should have over a pregnant woman in order to protect the fetus? What rights does the mother have? When, if ever, should the fetus get "protective custody?" Be specific in your answers and point to passages from the text as necessary..

Thanks to everyone!

[meegbear]

1. If the mother is going to commit an act ...

that would endanger the life of the child, like voting republican, then I feel society should intervene.

[RPM]

2. does your instructor allow you to solicit outside help on this?

you wouldnt want to run afoul of your school's academic integrity policy, would you?

[Heddi]

5. Well we can use outside sources

including, but not limited to

other text
websites
brochures
postings on message boards.

I don't plan on quoting anyone here, or using their words. I'm just looking for some ways to frame this argument in a creative and persuasive way.

I know that there are tons of news stories, etc, that I don't know about that deal directly with this topic. I want to be able to look at all sides and write something with a bit more depth than "Well, I believe in abortion 100% of the time, no questions asked. The end". I think that the professor is looking for a bit more than that.

Again--I'm not asking anyone to write my paper for me, and I would never plagarize or use text that is uncited. I just want some opinions on the topic and how other people view it so that I can have a wide breadth of information to present in my paper.

[Iris]

3. Go to your school's library.

There are several databases of journals, including one that specifically looks at both sides of issues like this. Ask the librarian for help - that's what they are there for and it will save you a whole lot of time and trouble, PLUS make your paper better because your resources will be sound.

[Heddi]

8. No can do

This is an online class and don't have access to anything other than my local library, which is about the size of a garden shed.

Like I told the poster above--I'm not wanting anyone to write my paper for me. I know that DU'ers have links galore on a variety of topics, and I know that there have been cases recently where this has been an issue (appointing a guardian for an as-of-yet unborn fetus). I was hoping that someone could post links that I could use independently to frame my argument.

I was also looking for other's opinions on this---not so that I can plagarize and steal, but so that I can get a fully-formed idea as to the pro's and cons--the for's and against's of this argument. I learned in debate class that when you're approaching a topic, not only do you have to do a good job of presenting your own side, but pre-emptively answer the questions or points that could be raised by your opponent.

Again--I'm not wanting people to do my work for me---I just want some opinions about the topic (so that I can better form my own) and any links to news stories, etc, regarding this topic

[Iris]

13. What kind of program is it? All the online programs I'm familiar with

give you access to a library or tell you how to get it.

Your local library may be able to get access to databases in other towns.

I'm not suggesting you are trying to get someone to do the work for you. I'm just saying there's a right and wrong way to do research for an academic paper and usuing questionable sources (even fellow DU'ers!) is not it.

[Heddi]

15. I'm 500 miles away from the school

that's why I'm taking it online.

I agree with what you say in the last paragraph. Would people posting links be considered "questionable" sources? I have the ability to discard or use any source presented to me, and I would never use some non-valid site or source in my papers.

The problem is that I've googled this to heaven's end and I just can't find what I'm looking for as far as news articles, journal articles, etc. I know that Du'ers have the things I'm lookign for, and even if the site they present isn't good for the report, I can find other better sources based on searches from the link they provided me (does that make sense? I've been writing all day and my 'senseometer' I think is broken.)

[lvx35]

4. Its all controlled by when you define life

I for one don't believe the 4 celled zygote has a mind, senses, or a soul, because it doesn't have the equipment that accompany thought in all organisms. Later in the pregnancy, stronger arguments could be made that its 'human', but its definatly a human with full rights at birth. The rights and responsibilities of the pregnant woman are to determine if she is going to let the zygote grow into what will become a human, and if so, she needs to provide a healthy environment for it, so the human that is born can be healthy. Society should help redirect a woman who decides to have the child but is consuming drugs, because it will affect the child. Basically if you are going to have a child, it should have a chance at a decent life, and society should act within reason to help those goals.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. This site is not unbiased... It has lots of info.

While it has not been updated recently, it has lots of VERY interesting info, and good links.

http://www.lifeandlibertyforwomen.org/index.html

[Heddi]

10. Great. Thanks!

This is the kind of stuff I want---links to sites that can provide me with information I can use in the report itself. I value all of y'alls opinions, but I'm only looking for personal opinions so that I can better frame my own. No plagarizing here!

[DURHAM D]

7. Are you in a public or private school - the questions suggest a

bias towards the fetus.

My complete answers follow:

Question 1 - None

Question 2 - All of them.

Question 3 - Never - unless the mother gives it up for adoption.

[Heddi]

9. public school

comm. college.

Actually, the professor is very left-leaning and seems to be pro-choice based on the responses I got on another paper I recently wrote. I don't think that the prof. is pro-fetus, although the book might frame it in a way (I'm still wading through the text right now)

[DURHAM D]

16. Just a reminder - the Supreme Court decision was based on the

right of privacy. The matter was to be decided between the host (woman) and her doctor - privately.

The rights of the fetus argument was concocted by the Republican party when they were fishing around for a new wedge issue to replace busing in order to solidify their southern strategy. It was an after the fact (Roe v. Wade) idea and it was so effective that it also helped the rightwing defeat the Equal Rights Amendment. Initially the repugs were not against either issue until they discovered the joy and happiness of "wedge politics". Hard to imagine today.

[Heddi]

19. Yep. Same with Griswold v. Conn

it wasn't that the USSC gave permission for women to take contraceptives, rather, it solidified the RIGHT to medical privacy.

This is a complex topic and I really want to do it justice. There are alot of issues at stake here (life of the mother? rights of the mother? medical privacy?) and I want to do the subject justice.

Now I just need to see what the 'other side' says about this, when they think it's appropriate and why, so taht I can argue against those points and establish the strength of my own position at the same time.

[DURHAM D]

22. Good for you and good luck - remember the opposition is not

rational. Makes your task much harder.

[Heddi]

23. That's completely the problem

I think I'm going to do a bit on the hypocracy of those who claim to be 'right for life' before birth, but are pro-poverty, anti-education, anti-health care, pro-war, pro-death penatly, and how if one claims to have respect for life in one instance, they should have respect for life in all instances.

I think I'm going to bring up the point (which I have to get a link for) that story recently in Florida where any woman who was either going to adopt out her children or have an abortion (I'm not sure which) had to print the names of every man she'd ever had sex with so that they would have a chance to claim parental rights (now that I think of it, I'm sure it was for adoption), and how this is incredibly biased towards females, since men who are 'deadbeat dads' don't have to list the names of all women THEY'VE had sex with who may have "illegitimate" children by this man, ya know.

It's so complex. I'm afraid I'm goign to end up writing more than I'm supposed to...hopefully professor won't mind if my arguments are sound and my writing is complete.

[DURHAM D]

26. Sounds like you are writing this paper to address arguments/conversations

you might be having with your peer group. You more than likely can't change their minds.

What is clear from your comments is that you know how you feel about the issue and you have based it on reasoning. One of the things that I have noticed in the past several years is that young people I know can not even discuss this issue as it relates to the less fortunate among us - it is always just a "me/I" issue. Abortion was/is always available to people with means and will continue to be even if Roe V. Wade is overturned.

[Heddi]

28. well, kind of

The class is an online distance-learning class, so everything is done electronically and over the internet.

The paper isn't written for my peers---I have to submit it to my professor. However, we have to participate in discussion groups about our papers (and the reading in general), so there is a good chance that parts of the essay (not teh whole thing) will be posted in the discussion board for other student's opinions.

I'm not, however, writing it for their benefit, if that makes any sense. I just feel that in order to write a persuasive essay, I have to kind of address the opinions or feelings of those who oppose my view, so that I can "pre-emptively" answer any counter arguments they make---even though this isn't a debatable topic amongst students. Okay. I know that really makes no sense. I've been writing papers all dang day long and my fingers are about to fall off and my brain has turned to mush (in addition to the fact that it's 97F outside and I have no AC and feel like a big pile of sweaty goo...)

[ugarte]

11. Just a couple of quick points

Point #1: abortion is not murder. Many anti-choice people say that abortion is murder and yet in the next breath agree that it is permissible in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is endangered. This is a major inconsistency on their part, because if abortion were truly murder, it would NEVER be permissible. Therefore, even most anti-choicers realize that abortion is something other than murder.

Point #2: if abortion is not the simple equivalent of murder, then a whole range of secondary options and relationships come into play, depending on societal mores. Some restrictions are likely to be favored by the majority, but all such restrictions, whether a 16 week limitation or something longer, are merely arbitrary. There is no magic date in my opinion when a fetus becomes, for legal purposes, a human being.

For myself, I believe all abortions should be case-specific between a woman and her doctor. The government has no business usurping sovereignty over a woman's body.

[T Roosevelt]

12. Perhaps you could approach it from a philosophical POV

rights of the state vs rights of the individual, beginnings of life, etc. I don't have an idiot's guide to philosophers, so I don't know who to recommend...

[Heddi]

18. That's what I was thinking

I had already parsed out the idea that in order for a protective order to be granted, we'd have to come to a conclusion as to when life begins (since a guardian can't be appointed for something that isn't even alive yet).

However, there are times when the fetus is definitely 'alive' (although sustaining life come soley from the body of the mother). I mean, a fetus in the 8th month of gestation is definitely alive and has reached the point of medical viability. So I can see in a no-specific-incidence how a guardian could be appointed after the point of viability.

I just fail to see any instances where a guardian would have to be appointed, or when a protective order would be appointed.

I'm weary to give special status to a fetus, even if the mother is engaging in high-risk behaviour known to cause fetal deformities or death (like smoking, taking certain drugs known to be teratogenic). I still feel that the mother has a right to engage in any activities she wishes, even if they are harmful to the fetus in either the short or long term. As it stands, there is no law against drinking during preganncy, although it's highly reccomended that you don't. Since it's not illegal to do so, I can't see how a protective order could be granted in that case, or any other case where the mother is doing something that isn't illegal.

But even if she DOES illegal things--like using ilicit drugs during pregnancy--I'm not sure that even in that instance do I believe that a protective order should be granted. I know there was a case in SC a few years ago where women were getting free pre-natal services through the state. The state, however, was doing unconsented drug screens on the women. The women who came back positive for drugs were given two options: quit using drugs and undergo periodic testing for the rest of your pregnancy, OR, keep using drugs and wehn you deliver, you will be promptly placed under arrest and your child will be taken from you, all parental rights negated, and put up for adoption.

I think the part I'm having problems with is seeing the 'other' side that would agree to this, even in extreme situations. I have to know what the 'other' side thinks so that I can present those arguments in my essay and argue against them. However, I don't know the 'other side' other than "no abortions. ever. fetuses are a gift from god. period. end of story" and the broad anti-choice position is too complex to argue in a short essay paper.

[DURHAM D]

30. They believe that life begins when the sperm heads into the egg.

End of discussion. Can you counter that?

[Heddi]

31. Well, first I'd have to ask

you to define what "life" is.

Of course I can't counter that, no one can (that's why they use such absolutes in their arguments). But what I can argue is the definition of medical viability, and that the date set for viability is long into the pregnancy, and only established when a fetus could successfully live on its own outside the womb.

that doesn't answer the question of when life begins---but I'm also not Judeo-Christian so I can't argue on their biblical/religious terms either (and I won't do that).

I could argue that the idea that life begins at conception is based completely out of religious beliefs and not out of scientific fact, and that any laws that govern the body and what medical procedures can and can't be allowed must be based on solid scientific fact and not religious conjecture.

Also, for the religious part, it's only the beleif of a few religions, not all of them. Many religions believe that "life" occurs only after the first breath is taken. Others believe that life begins at the time of quickening (when the first movements of the fetus are felt by the mother). Some cultures believe that a child isn't considered part of the family until they pass their 3rd birthday, since it's common for children in their culture to die before the 3rd birthday.

To say life begins at conception and making that a reason to outlaw abortion is to basically have the state or fed take a position on a specific religious belief. That is an establishment of religion, which (used to be) against the Constitution (back in the old USofA)

For people who say life begins at conception, I ask them why then don't the unborn qualify for the child deductable on income taxes, and why a social-security-number is only given after birth, or why citizenship is granted only after birth.

If life begins at conception, then is an unborn fetus charged with murder if it causes the death of the mother? Could a fetus be 'evicted' if the pregnancy was unwanted by the mother (the fetus living inside the mother without consent).

eh. I'm writing the paper now. It's in early infantile stages, and rather rough, but I keep going back every few minutes and adding this and taking out that. I think it'll shape up nicely

[DURHAM D]

32. I think you are thinking straight - good luck. eom

[sinkingfeeling]

14. While I'm 100% pro-choice, I believe that as a society we do need

to 'approve' abortion and seriously and unbiasedly determine the proper course of action in the last tri-semster of pregnancy. If there is any indication that birth would be fatal or cause great harm to the mother, then the choice is up to her. The debate stems on who has the right to make decisions for others. Some would say that any fertilized egg is a person, which doesn't make much logical sense, since less than 1/3 of all of these result in a full term pregnancy. I think that each woman has the right to make a choice for herself with the advice of a doctor.

Search the internet
Visit NARAL (prochoiceamerica.org)
Visit Planned Parenthood
Study the history of abortion in the US
Visit the Prochoice resource center http://www.prochoiceresource.org/
Visit this site http://www.abortionfacts.com/life_or_choice/pro_choice.asp

[Heddi]

21. Thanks for the links

I'm checking them out right now.

[On the Road]

17. Identifying the Most Important Issues

and showing you understand both arguments is what will make the best paper. How you discuss those issues depends on whether the class is history, sociology, or law. It's difficult on highly partisan subjects like abortion, and you can stand out by not making it a one-sided statement of belief.

The legal principle on which Roe v Wade was decided was the right to privacy -- the right that the government should not interfere in a purely personal matter. That right has to be weighed against the right of a human being to live. The question is when the status of a human being is attained.

(In my opinion, the Supreme Court evaded this issue by drawing the deadline at the point the fetus could survive outside the womb, and would have been on stronger ground if they had phrased it in terms of when a human being capable of legal standing begins.)

The anti-abortion argument turns on the legal standing of an embryo, fetus, or unborn child. Once a human being develops, presumably that human being should have the right to live. Therefore, pro-abortion writers humanize the developing fetus and attempt to push back the date the developing embryo becomes a human being. This is not only to generate political support, it is key to their legal goal of getting "standing" for the fetus as early as possible.

For some reason, pro-abortion organzations tend to avoid discussions of this kind, even though there are reasonably good biological arguments for keeping the date at the end of the second trimester. But these are not the only options. Some anti-abortionists beleive that life begins at conception, although I think they have difficulty substantiating that. You could also argue (although few peope do) that life begins at some other point (for example, when electrical activity in the brain begins, which is believed to happen in Week X).

If you can discuss both sides of privacy and legal standing, you'll have a superb paper even if you never give a clear statment of your own beliefs.

[Heddi]

20. Thanks. That's what I'm trying to do

As I said above, I've googled the hell out of this in every possible string of words I can think of.

What I get is alot of pro-rights sites that talk about the importance of keeping abortion legal (which isn't really the issue being discussed, although I plan to draw it into the essay), and a bunch of anti-rights sites that decry abortion under every situation. The broad scope of the anti-choicers is too complex to even begin to argue against in an essay of this length (maybe 2 pages max).

I'm having problems finding THEIR position on fetal rights SPECIFICALLY under which circumstances they believe that guardianship should be appointed for the fetus, and under which circumstances protective orders should be made for the fetus.

I know that the more hard-liners believe that a fetus should be protected no matter what---I'm not interested in the hard-liners. More the moderates who are probably for abortion, up to a certain point, but would agree that in some situations protective orders should be granted. However, I need to know what those 'situations' are that they would see as being justification for the orders.

I, personally, can't think of any, and that's what I'm trying to look for (at this point).

[On the Road]

24. Is it Really About Protective Orders for Individual Fetuses?

I've never heard that angle. I just figured it was shorthand for wanting to eliminate all abortions. But it's really a separate set of issues. To put the fetus under protective custody, you have to first define it as a human being and then decide that the mother no longer has the right to custody. That opens up an additional can of worms.

Sometimes a professor has simpler expectations in some areas than it might sound like. If there's time, it might be worth talking about your difficulites finding good material and see what he or she says. One way to search on the internet might be to include search terms that would narrow it down to legal sites, where RW law students might discuss precedents, legal strategy, etc.

[Heddi]

25. I guess...

I'm just basing this on the question:

what control, if any, do you think society should have over a pregnant woman in order to protect the fetus? What rights does the mother have? When, if ever, should the fetus get "protective custody?

--

I think that the professor WANTS us to see that this isn't a simple yes/no situation. I think they want us to see that there are really alot of grey areas involved. I also think that this maybe is to separate the cream from the milk, you know---which students look at the question, give a 2 paragraph answer and leave it at that, and which students really understand the question and the implications and make a sound argument for whichever side they choose (Even if they don't necessarily agree with that position).

This teacher is tricky. Questions that look rather easy on the surface, it seems, tend to have a bit more meat to them underneath--that is, if you take the time to research the subject and realize that it's not so cut-n-dried.

[On the Road]

27. I Was Wondering if the Professor was Anti-Abortion

unless it's based on a specific case that had relevance to the class, it seems an odd way of selecting one part of an issue and an odd way of phrasing it.

[Heddi]

29. I don't think they're Anti-Abortion

based on evaulations I've gotten on past papers, the prof. seems very pro-choice, or at least that's the feeling I've gotten.

I think the question stems from the text (it's a psychology class) that raises kind of both sides of the abortion debate--that some people feel abortion is immoral and the rights of the fetus should be protected at all costs by the state or federal government, and that other people see no moral issue with abortion and feel that the decision should be made by the woman and her health care professional.

The book isn't either pro or anti abortion. It raises the point that there are two sides and leaves it up to the reader, I suppose, to decide which side they agree with (if any).

It's definitley a hetchy question, though. Thankfully I'm set enough in my beliefs that I feel I can write this paper with complete frankness with regards to my position (if I choose to write the paper in that manner) and not get a bad grade because of it. I think the professor is more interested in our cognitive abilities and how we can frame the debate and make our points clear, not necessarily whether or not they agree with the position we take.

[Heddi]

33. THANK YOU EVERYONE :)

The links y'all provided were just outstanding!

I was able to get really relevant information from the links themselves and also I was linked to several of the news-stories I was looking for.

I was able to make it really short and to the point and I thank everyone for helping me get the info I needed.

Prof sent it back and I got full points, which I don't think I would have done if I used the scant sources I had up til the point of posting.

Thank you, again. DU never fails to amaze me :)

[MichiganVote]

34. Drug or alcohol abuse are a significant problem

Women need help with this, not jail time.

[Yalita]

35. What about the babies that dont die?

http://www.fbcnet.net/cpc/baby_left_to_die_after_surviving.htm

There are tons of them. Googel them. Shouldnt a baby that somehow survive a abortion then be treated as a human and given the care it needs to survive.
Because if you say abortion is a mothers choice cause it is her body. When the baby is no longer in the body what then?

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/6562/doctrine/jessen.html
If what she testified is true that is just to horrabale to imagine.

[Heddi]

36. well, see, the question wasn't about BABIES

it was about FETUSES.

Fetuses, as I'm sure you know, is a medical term to denote a certain gestational age. Anything that is outside the womb is, by definition alone, not a fetus. It is a baby.

So anything outside the womb, that has been born or otherwise removed, isn't a fetus. So it doesn't pertain to this question at all.

Although I have a feeling you don't give one whit about medical definitions, or any other substantiated fact regarding abortion, embryos or fetuses, and what the difference is between them and an actual baby (hint: a baby has been born. The others have not)

[Yalita]

37. well

"protective custody?" Got me thinking of that.
And These Babies were left to die because of what the mother wanted done to the fetus.
My post was kinda off topic but that term got me thinking about it.

[choicevoice]

38. If you need statistical data you might want to try this site

http://www.agi-usa.org/