Canseco's Claims

[erpowers]

In his book Jose Canseco claims that the white guys who took steroids were protected by the owners and managers of the teams. He goes to claim that the minority players were punished for taking steroids. I believe him on this point in that I contend that the leaders of the teams did not start to worry about steroid use in baseball until Barry Bonds began approaching Mark Mcquire mark of 70 home runs. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that before Barry Bonds began hitting home runs the officials of baseball did not care about steroid abuse. One example for me is the way baseball handled the Mcquire issue. In 1998 it came out that Mcquire used a legal steroid. Many people in baseball seemed to just brush it off and claim that it was not an illegal steroid. So what do other DUers think about the issue?

[yinkaafrica]

1. Modern sports is all bullshit

who cares?

[MissWaverly]

3. I think that this is supposed to be the start of steroid use

Wasn't GWB the team owner, isn't this a crime, and the cover up is also a crime and I remember that you can't be president if you are convicted of a felony. I know this is fluff stuff, but remember they convicted Al Capone on tax evasion, he was never tried for 1 murder.

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

2. McGuire was smart...

he planted the legal steroid in his locker at a locker room press conference. Reporter's came in and immediately saw the legal steroid, which was practically out in the open. They started to question him about the legal steroid, he admitted to it, and said he would stop. Admitting he took legal steroids allowed him to continue to take illegal steroids without being questioned about it.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. Nice Theory

Too bad it doesn't make sense. See my other post. For references, go to any college library and look in a biochemistry and pharmacology textbook to see what andro is, what it does, etc.
The Professor

[HuckleB]

11. Indeed.

He's a game player par none. I don't believe a thing McGwire says.

[DaveinMD]

4. Sammy Sosa is white?

who knew.

[erpowers]

5. We May Disagree

I realize that Sosa is not white. However, Sosa said he did not use any type of steriod. My point in this post is mainly to point out and question why nothing was done in 1998, but something was done in 2003. Was it that three players in a few years hit more than 60 home runs in one season, or was it for a different reason? Why did baseball wait until now? It just seems like in 1998 nobody cared. Now it is a problem.

[DrGonzoLives]

6. He didn't?

Take a look at him before going to the Cubs. He's scrawny. Then he suddenly beefs up. Don't tell me for one second that there wasn't something funny going on there.

[DaveinMD]

7. nobody cared

because the home run chase saved baseball after the strike. It made money for the game.

And Sosa lied about corking his bat. He's obviously on steroids. Look at his face now compared to when he first came up. The shape of the face is completely different.

[HuckleB]

12. I don't know any Cubs fans personally, who don't believe that Sosa used.

They watched him develop and fall apart. He's a classic case. And, actually, true baseball fans talked about this ad nauseum in '98. The press and MLB ignored it because they were working to keep the Johnny Come Latelies in the stands.

[Lexingtonian]

8. it's all about the money

The owners and managers know the MLB fans and why they come to the ballpark, and why they'll spend the kind of money they do on it. It's: because it's a game for and about 10-year-old boys, and all about nostalgia and the fantasy life of kids that age. It's about life not being very complicated- but tricky in parts- and given to cameradery and small heroisms.

The problem with Barry Bonds is that he violates too many of the pieces of the nostalgic idyll. He thinks baseball is about adult frustrations. He chose to take away from McGwire by deliberately pursuing the record without letting a decent interval pass. He's not photogenic. He's overtly doing everything he can to attract admiration and intimidation and bulk up. He certainly doesn't have that wink about him that the great players have- the one adults have when they're caught playing childrens' games. There's simply nothing joyfully boyish about him.

It's the same thing with Hank Aaron taking the HR record from the Babe, something that people like DiMaggio looked at but saw why they shouldn't do it.

So the problem with Bonds is marketing. And yes, that has a fair amount to do with racism and tribalism of working class fans. But it's really that the basic agreement to ignore the obvious between MLB and its fans- starting with adult players, the intense repetitiveness of the game, the ridiculous money dispersion in MLB- gets overstrained by people like Bonds attacking it so deliberately, and MLB is intensely aware of it. There lots of records set in sports, and they are an excuse for adults to cling to sports of their youth, but they all depend on context and utility. There are world records in rope-pulling and chariot racing and wild animal hunting and gladiator battling- but at some point they became irrelevant, because the fantasy around them and the world they had symbolic meaning in was broken or went lost.

Right now we're seeing pro hockey in crisis and perhaps never recovering- the people who watch hockey have/spend less money on it than the players and owners can find compatible with their sense of themselves, and I suspect that audience is also shrinking as hockey loses relevance as a way to prominence in, or way out, of their social class and its condition.

[ProfessorGAC]

9. Andro Is NOT A Steroid

That's a myth. Andro is intended to help the body better metalbolize proteins into amino acids and aid in the assimilation of the amino acids.

The level of steroid provided (stanabinol) is less than 1% of the dosage of andro taken. The reason why IAFF banned andro years ago was NOT because it was a steroid and not even because it was a performance enhancer. It was because the trace amount of steroid that did form in the body would show up in a urine test and would give a real steroid user the excuse that "it must be the andro". Track and field people were using it as a poor man's masking agent. So, they banned it to take away the excuse.

Me, i'm not convinced that McGwire was a user. If one followed his career like i did, there was no point where suddenly he got big. He simply added muscle and weight a little at a time over almost 10 years. And, remember he was a pretty big dude even when he was at USC. Also, remember he hit 49 homers in 145 games in his rookie season. That translates to almost 5 homer every 14 games, which over a whole 162 game season would be over 56 home runs. Nobody suspected steroids when he was a rookie. He didn't look like a user then since he wasn't very big. He had acne pretty bad then. He had it when he hit the 70.

Also, a bunch of people now raise an eyebrow about how McGwire isn't as big. But, i saw him on that golf skills show this past early winter with the pros. He is still HUGE! His arms were still as big as my thighs. (He did hit a 355 yard drive!)

So, i don't buy the McGwire thing, and once again, andro is NOT a steroid. The steroid precursor thing is a biochemically invalid canard.
The Professor

[HuckleB]

13. So what?

That's irrelevant in general, and it's irrelevant to the game McGwire played with the press and MLB in '98.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Whatever

If you want to believe he did steroids, go ahead. Don't let the lack of evidence get in your way. Me, i'll go with the american system of innocent until PROVEN guilty.

And, it's not irrelevant at all. You should look up that word, because i'm not sure you know what it means. Your post would indicate that is the case. The OP stated McGwire used a "legal steroid". He clearly meant andro. It's not a steroid. How can that be irrelevant? Correct answer: It Isn't!
The Professor

[HuckleB]

15. Lack of evidence?

Please. I saw McGwire in Spring Training his rookie year. I saw him each year thereafter. Anyone who has spent time around weight rooms and baseball is going to tell you that what happened to his body wasn't simply due to hard work. Bring on all the legal mumbo jumbo you want to, but that's simple denial in the face of reality. As for the Andro bit, the bottom line is clear. McGwire was trying to send the dogs off in another direction before they finally did their jobs and looked down the real road. You are just obfuscating with your long diatribes about Andro not being a steroid. What McGwire did is quite clear.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Which Year Did He Get Big?

Answer: It didn't happen in any one year. He was huge his rookie year and got bigger. There is no one year where suddenly he got big and beefy. You know that's true.

And you can theorize if you want about the andro thing, but there's zero logic to it and it's at best a guess.

You say it's clear. I say you've got nothing.
The Professor

[HuckleB]

17. Ah, now I know that you're just playing games.

He wasn't big at all his rookie year. He got quite big over the next two years, and then he jumped hugely right before he went after Ruth and Maris. You weren't paying attention, my friend. I was.

Please don't pretend that you were. And please don't obfuscate with your dreams that McGwire wasn't playing games with the Andro. He's not the guy he wants everyone to believe he is.

I'm living in the real world. You're offering theories that don't match up to the real world. I've had enough of your blind fandom of McGwire and the others. Enjoy yourself.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. I've Been An A's Fan Since The Late 60's

I wasn't paying attention? Try again.
The Professor

[HuckleB]

19. It's clear that you weren't.

A's fan or not. Either that, or you're in denial.

Take your pick.

:hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

20. I'm No Longer Laughing About This

This was funny for a while. Now you're moral certitude is insulting.
The Professor

[HuckleB]

21. Now I'm laughing me arse off!

Of all the posters on DU, it's definitely funny to see you wracking yourself over the "moral certitude" of others.

Oh, and, uh, in case you forgot, this is a sports thread. If you can't laugh, it might be time to spend some time in a mirror and try to figure out why.

But, hey, thanks for the giggle.

:evilgrin:

:smoke:

[HuckleB]

34. WOW! TALK ABOUT A GRUDGE HOLDER!

Thanks for the angry, unwarranted, out-of-context PM. Funny that you don't allow return PMs. (It appears that you can dish it out, but can't take the return volley.) I hope you haven't broken your mirror yet!

P.S. -- Yeah, we all know that you think you're right about everything, and that you think you use science to prove you're so very right. Some of us have been around long enough to know the context of some of that science, however. We're not so easily fooled by pomposity.

Bye. Bye.

:P

[kaitykaity]

22. Brett Boone was all over this yesterday.

http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/northwest/sports/mariners/stories/NW_021205SPBcansecoEL.a0c21cb0.html

"The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. End of story," Boone said. "I’m not going to comment beyond that. The incident he writes about in the book is false."

[HuckleB]

23. It is odd, however.

I mentioned in another thread that I'd had a number of conversations with fans at ballparks around the country last year (Safeco, Wrigley, BOB, Pac Bell, Miller) regarding the incredibly shrinking biceps and thighs of many of the players. Many Seattle fans were scratching their heads when they saw Boone last year. He just seemed like he shrank. I'm not saying any more than that, but it does seem odd.

Salud.

[kaitykaity]

24. But I think the

Mariners' problems were a lot bigger than Boone "seeming"
to shrink -- lousy defense, horrible bullpen, no hitting,
Spiezio at third...

You know, when you see a team go from winning 116 ballgames
in 2001 to barely winning 60 in 2004, it's hard not to
see shrinkage in the players.

Now if I saw some before and after measurement numbers
(biceps, etc) I could put more stock in those appearances.

[HuckleB]

25. I didn't mean to infer that last year's downfall was his fault.

He did have an off year, but I, and most of my baseball buddies, thought the talk about trading him was just stupid. I mean the goofball M's had already given away Carlos Guillen, and it doesn't get much dumber than that move. Boone's probably got two or three good hitting years left, and his D is still among the best around.

It's just that Boone's thighs and biceps looked to be waning a bit last year (something I first wondered about when I saw him in Spring Training), that's all.

Alas, we'll never get numbers to compare size. And we'll never know the full extent of 'rhoid use in MLB. I just hope history is not nice to Selig. It certainly shouldn't be.

[kaitykaity]

26. I didn't say you did.

Like I said, I'd love to see some before and after
measurements. That sort of scientific, objective
information would go a long way to prove/disprove your
impression of Boone's "shrinkage."

Have to disagree about Guillen. Guillen and Garcia
were both noxious in the clubhouse, at least from what
I understand. Rowdy boys, you know. So I wasn't sad to
see either one of them go. And Guillen was always a bit
fragile healthwise.

I wouldn't have a whole lot of hope for the Mariners this
year, except they did finally go out and spend money on
free agents this off season, and they didn't do that in
past years. Also having Edgar out of the lineup decreases
their average age by about five years. (Sacrilege from
a fan, but what the heck.)

I'm just glad it's that time of year again. I'll be able
to listen to the games this year now that election season
is over with.

[HuckleB]

28. Guillen had some issues with health, true.

But he actually played as many games as most starting shortstops when he was in Seattle. His bat was good and on the way up (as he showed in Detroit last year), and, no, I never heard any issues about him in the clubhouse. I only recall positive thoughts about him from other players and coaches. In the end, it simply doesn't make sense to dump a fairly cheap and very productive player (with huge defensive pluses as well) in order to spend big bucks on the two old cripples they went after. (they got lucky when the first couldn't pass his physical. alas, their luck didn't hold out.) The Aurilia experiment certainly proved to be a big mistake, no matter what one's personal feelings for Guillen may be.

As for the size issue, of course, it'd be great to have measurements. And no one will ever be able to "prove" beyond a shadow of a doubt about individuals. But I wasn't the first, by a longshot, to mention that Boone looked smaller, and Boone wasn't the first player, by a longshot, to have fans mention this about him last year.

Now, the Garcia trade made a lot of sense, and Olivo is a serious catch. (Pun sort of intended.) And the free-agent signings were good, though the M's did the usual, going only so far. Two big names to get folks in the stands, but not enough to really make a serious run. It's the M's MO. I fear it will never change, and fans in the northwest will be eternally teased.

Baseball talk. Blah. Blah. Blah. It does pass the time rather pleasantly, though.

Salud.

PS -- If you can escape work, the Beavers have a number of weekday afternoon games scheduled this year. I know I'm excited about it.

[kaitykaity]

29. I'm self employed, can go when and where I want.

I just don't get into AAA ball the way I do the bigs.
When that Expo thing fell apart this last year I just about
cried -- you know, with the tribe offering to underwrite a
stadium in toto in return for being able to build a casino
closer to Portland and Gov. K. said no? :cry:

Yeah, talking about baseball is just about as pleasant a
thing to talk about as I can think of this time of the year.

As a bit of background, my whole feeling on this steriod flap
has always been yeah, they juice, yeah, the owners know it,
yeah, the fans know it. So effing what? Fans want long balls,
and the way to get a McQwire is juice. It's always been a
wink-wink, nod-nod from everybody, so I'm not buying this
mock outrage one stinking bit.

[HuckleB]

30. You're right. Everybody knew it.

However, most of the life-long baseball fans I know, including myself, have been "outraged" about it for 15 years. Unfortunately, we are also the ones dumb enough to go to ball games no matter what, so our feelings didn't weigh into MLB's equation. We're hooked. Selig and company know it. We might not like certain things about the modern game (the constant blare of bad music, for example), but we keep going anyway.

AAA ain't the bigs, indeed, especially with the artificial turf at PGE. But it's still a lot of fun. It's even more fun in Portland, if you've read David James Duncan's "The Brothers K." His description of Portland as a baseball town and of the diehards at the games is classic. And those descriptions connect me to AAA in ways I wouldn't be otherwise. In truth, I'd prefer AA, but I'll take what I can get.

And, yeah, the decision to turn down the tribe, while working to put another Casino in the Gorge just doesn't make any sense to me. I doubt we would have come out on top, in the end, anyway, as DC gave MLB way too much. If I lived in DC, I'd be one unhappy citizen, and I wouldn't be going to any Nationals games.

The most enjoyable games of the year at PGE, IMHO, are when the Iowa Cubs come to town. There are Cubbie fans everywhere, and, for some reason, the atmosphere at the park is electrified like no other time of year. Oh, and I've become addicted, for some strange reason, to cold, wet April and May games, when hardly anyone is there. I don't know why. It just gets me. I've got to go. I start with a good, dark beer from the Widmer pub, and then sip on hot chocolate all night long. I actually miss it when the sun warms everything up come July (or sometimes June).

Counting down the days...

[kaitykaity]

31. Iowa Cubs, huh?

I'll always remember that player plowing through
the Flavrpac sign about 15 years ago. That's my
forever Beaver memory. Gawd knows the local TV
stations have showed it enough.

It will be nice this year to go to Safeco and sit
wherever the heck I want to sit. That's never
happened before. I used to do that in the Kingdome
when there were maybe 12,000 people at Mariner games.
It was great.

Back on topic though. The only way this steriod story
would go anywhere is if there were fan outrage about it.
And there just isn't, not to the degree that we saw for
Limbball's comments about Donovan McNabb for example.
I think most fans are like me -- we know we abetted
this mess.

I think if MLB instituted mandatory testing like in
football that would make the whole thing go away.
Just getting the players union to go along, but I think
the league will manage it. Close the book, the HR
numbers go back down to when 40 was a big year, they
lower/raise the mound, whatever makes it harder for
pitchers and we're on our way.

[HuckleB]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news...

but it's not likely to be much different than in recent years at Safeco.

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/05/02/04/100spo_ms001.cfm

Of course, there's no need to sit at Safeco at all. One can walk around the lower deck, watching from behind the last row, getting a different view of the game each inning. Oops. Don't spread the word around too much!

[kaitykaity]

33. I should have said I like to sit high up on the third

level behind the plate so I can see all the
action. Where nobody is. If the game is short
of a sellout, there's nobody up there but me.

Thanks for the link though.

And I'll keep your secret. lol. That's a neat
idea.

Good talk this morning, HB. Thanks.

:hi:

[HuckleB]

27. No message.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.