IOC: Chinese gymnasts eligible

[ckramer]

Source: bg

BEIJING - Despite persistent questions about the ages of several members of the Chinese women's gymnastics team that won the gold medal, the International Olympic Committee said today there is still no proof anyone cheated and believes the controversy will be "put to rest."

The IOC asked the International Gymnastics Federation to investigate "what have been a number of questions and apparent discrepancies," spokeswoman Giselle Davies said. But all of the information the Chinese gymnastics federation has presented so far supports its insistence that its athletes were old enough to compete.

"We believe the matter will be put to rest and there's no question . . . on the eligibility," Davies said. "The information we have received seems satisfactory in terms of the correct documentation - including birth certificates."

Chinese coach Lu Shanzhen told the Associated Press they gave the FIG new documents yesterday to try to remove any doubts about He's age, including an old passport, residency card, and her current ID card.

Lu said all the documents were issued by various departments of the Chinese government, and that he had nothing more to put forth as evidence.

"If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?" an indignant Lu said.

"It's not just me," the coach added. "The parents of our athletes are all very indignant. They have faced groundless suspicion. Why aren't they believed? Why are their children suspected? Their parents are very angry."

The FIG has said repeatedly that a passport is the "accepted proof of a gymnast's eligibility," and that China's gymnasts have presented ones that show they are age eligible. The IOC also checked the girls' passports and deemed them valid before the Olympics began.

Read more: http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/08/22/ioc_chinese_gymnasts_eligible/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+Sports+stories&referer=sphere_related_content&referer=sphere_related_content

[bluestateguy]

1. Looks like the cover-up has been successfully executed

Congratulations.

[apnu]

71. There was no coverup. Just eyes closed, fingers in the ears and yelling "LA-LA-LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU

[tiptoe]

95. IOC passes eligibility matters to the Int'l Gym. Fed: "not taking gov't-issued docs at face value"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=215&topic_id=74034&mesg_id=74131

[4dsc]

2. Chinese CHEATER!!! eom..

[LiberalFighter]

3. IOC is also complicit

[kath]

14. yep - they're too chickenshit, afraid to make waves.

[not fooled]

62. Total corporate sellout

I no longer have any interest in the Olympics. China 2008 = Berlin 1936.

[sharesunited]

4. Until there is a reliable biometric test for age, forged birth certificates will control.

[rpannier]

7. There was a program on ABC (Asia-Pacific Broadcasting)

where a doctor claimed you could tell the age of children by x-raying the hands.

Apparantly, everyone's hands grow at the same rate (not same size) when they're children.
And by studying the gaps in the hands, bone growth, calcium structures, etc you can tell the age of a child within a 4 month time frame.

I don't know how accurate it was, but ABC (Australia, not to be confused with the ABC America (ABC-Always Biased for Conservatives) is usually spot-on with stories like this.

I'll be honest, I didn't pay really close attention to the whole story so I don't have all the details.

[RexDart]

11. I was going to say something like...

you could always cut off the foot and count the rings. But I won't.

[LeftyMom]

13. You can tell pretty well from which teeth have erupted.

[Lasher]

20. I've been watching for a proposal to conduct just such an analysis.

But I never expected to see it happen.

Instead all we get is a circular argument: China isn't lying because China says so, and here are Chinese documents to prove it. Throw in indignant Chinese parents to make you sorry you ever wondered why their athletes look like they're 12 years old, and presto! Case closed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. I didn't watch the Olympics so I didn't see these girls but one of my friends said

one of them still had her baby teeth. Seems like if that is true that would be a good way to prove these girls are too young to compete.

[BearSquirrel2]

33. "pretty much"

"pretty much" in this case means that a large percentage of the population will abide by your predictor. However, some will not and that will create "false negatives". The rules are written based on age, not upon biological standards.

To implement a change, the rules have to be rewritten to the biological predictors the happen to correlate with age. Otherwise it will get challenged in court and overturned.

[LeftyMom]

45. If you combine two measures, such as teeth and closure of growth plates on long bones

You would eliminate any statistical likelihood of a false measurement and could determine age of adolescents within a year or so. Certainly enough to tell a 16 year old from a 12 year old, which is rumored to be the real age of at least one of the Chinese gymnasts.

[BearSquirrel2]

50. One would also have to look at developmental variation ...

Are these you female gymnasts a population that will show variation from thee standards due to their intense training regime.

[On the Road]

64. Another Factor is That

at least in the countryside, Chinese women have often not had their first period until they were eighteen years old. That is bound to affect perceptions of age.

[mainer]

85. The problem is that age of pubertal onset is different

And closing of epiphyseal plates is variable. We probably all know American boys who suddenly shot up after age 18, while their friends reached their adult heights by seventeen. Human growth is variable. Some girls hit menarche at age nine; others at age fifteen. Nutrition is a large part of it.

And kids in Asia aren't exposed to as much dairy as Americans are.

[mainer]

89. Dental maturation rates vary between races

It might help to check a little into the scientific literature:

Wisdom teeth eruption later in Asians:

http://www.up.ac.za/dspace/bitstream/2263/4239/1/Olze_Comparative(2007).pdf

And below, I cited an Indian article about permanent teeth eruption being later among Indian children.

The ethnocetric posts on this subject are amazing. Everyone assumes that Caucasians are the physical standard for every single race in the world.

[MrModerate]

23. With the unnatural stresses gymnasts put on their bodies . . .

I doubt the test would be valid.

[BearSquirrel2]

32. Statistics ...

The doctor is utilizing a normal statistical curve to accomplish this. Everyones hands DO NOT grow at EXACTLY the same rate. Likely it is just a very good indicator that will get you "close". By definition of normal distribution ... some people fall outside the norm.

If the IOC wishes to rewrite the rules based on skeletal growth rather than age ... great. Otherwise, this or any other "age test" will generate false negatives for age thresholds.

[BearSquirrel2]

30. ... so they should drop the age rule !!!

I think this is exactly correct. There is no way to verify age in countries with either lax documentation standards or totalitarian regimes that can simply forge new birth certificates. Doctors can look at x-rays and get a rough idea, but that is only a statistical norm and not reliable as some people fall outside this norm by definition.

The IOC has documented proof that these girls were touted to be one age before, now they are documented as being another. But their own lame standards for documentation (the word of the country in question) undermines THERE rules.

There is a simple answer to this ... GET RID OF THE AGE REQUIREMENTS. Of course, this would put a kabosh on the IOCs plans for a junior and senior games. I think this is a laudable goal. But they are going to run into exactly the same issues with age verification and the problem will be MUCH, MUCH worse!!!

AND BTW, ..., if the age rule is there to protect the physical development process of young girls by banning them from elite competition, why create an entire new "elite competition" by creating a junior games? They would effectively be duplicating the problem that they claim they are trying to prevent on a global scale across all the disciplines. And of course, this completely sidesteps the fact that most of these young people are ALREADY competing in elite events at the local regional and national level.

To summarize ... the age rule is really stupid. It has the same effect as banning pot. It stops no one, creates no positive beneifts and just causes all kinds of enforcement problems.

[ilovemesomechickens]

41. riiight, you realise its purpose right?

that its there to protect the health of these young girls?

i dont have a problem with lowering the age to say 14, but to suggest there are no restrictions at all... well... thats nuts.

there are some countries, china included, who will stop at nothing to achieve greatness... which means doing things to these young underdeveloped bodies that they will pay for later in life.

sure, you mite win a gold at 14.. but what good does that do you when your stuck in a wheel chair by 50 ?

[BearSquirrel2]

51. Go to a softball tournament ...

I think you need to check out the local softball circuit. Athletes push themselves to the breaking point. They will do it REGARDLESS of their access to the olympics. What you think the olympics is the only game in town. You don't think that these girls train their asses of for local on regional tournaments and that they train JUST AS STRENUOUSLY!!!

All the Olympic age ban accomplishes is eliminating younger girls from a few elite competitions. THATS ALL!!!

[ilovemesomechickens]

91. trust me,

the way kids are trained in china and other nations that put medals or trophies above the value of competing and loving the sport are a lil different than american softball leagues.

you are very out of touch .

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. I recall when Bela Karolyi accused the North Koreans of using gymnasts under 12

This was several Olympics ago. He said that when he coached for Romania, the government made him falsify age records, so he had a good idea of what kids looked like at various ages.

In any case, gymnasts tend to be smaller than average. If you've ever attended a gymnastics exhibition live, you know how tiny the gymnasts are.

[joeglow3]

68. Like US baseball players having Tommy John surgery at 16???

Sorry, but this will prevent NOTHING.

[ilovemesomechickens]

92. so you dont think kids bodies

have a breaking point ?
and we shouldnt attempt to prevent it by not pushing them beyond their bodies limitations?


yeah, thats a winner stance.

[MikeNearMcChord]

5. Proof that China is the economic King Cock of the world

and militarily they are next. Sportsfans, this is their century, deal with it.

[CookCountyResident]

6. Of course the parents are indignent.

As long as they are living in cushier circumstances than they were before their kids were selected as Olympians, they'll be as indignant as the government wants them to be.

[AlphaCentauri]

8. It would be indignant if a younger kid bit me in a competition

I would prefer not to ask questions about the kid's age

[progdonkey]

12. getting bitten by a little girl usually does make one indignant...

:hide:

[superconnected]

17. Why? What about the girl who was of legal age for the competiton that lost to the cheater?

Do you think all sports rules should be thrown out or just gymnastics?

[AlphaCentauri]

44. No but why make a big deal

older girls should have more experience, their training and abilities should be better than those of the younger girls.

[LisaL]

53. Using your logic, one might not reach ones' full potential

until one is 60. Lifetime of training and experience, you know.

[superconnected]

58. Wrong on both accounts. It's a big deal because she broke the rules

and isn't even legal to compete. It's also proven that the younger girl with the smaller frame has a significant advantage over the older girls. They'll win far more were they allowed to compete and did before the age limits were put in, in the 1980's. The age limits were put in to help prevent the exploitation of children.

So you don't care about the rules. I'll take it that, that covers everything.

[AlphaCentauri]

67. I care about the rules but ripping apart kids dreams for ambitious adults disputes

it's disgusting

[superconnected]

70. Excuse me? What if the kids are underage like the article says

who's dreams are being ripped apart then, the cheaters or the people who lost to them?

I think for the sake of the rest of the gymnasts that competed they better get it right - their placement in the results tally. That's going to change quite a bit if 2 or three girls end up underaged.

[AlphaCentauri]

75. OK, the rules are that the age of the kids has to be check before the competition

if somebody did not do their job, that is not the kids responsibility, I'm sorry for the parents who want to grab those medals from the kids.

[wickerwoman]

26. Not half as indignant as all the great 14 year old gymnasts from other countries

who sat out this Olympics because it was against the rules for them to compete.

I don't see much point in limiting the age to 16, but the rules are the rules and the competition is completely meaningless if one country breaks them with impunity. If there hadn't been an age limit, who knows who would have won? The point is that lots of girls sat at home watching the Olympics because they were too young to compete while China pretty blatantly cheated and then the government covered it up.

[ilovemesomechickens]

39. while thats true

a cheater is still a cheater.

id rather know i was beat fairly by someone younger than me than to know i lost because someone lied or cheated.

[ilovemesomechickens]

49. youd prefer not to ask any questions at all

about anything dealing with the chinese government. theyve taught you well.

you only tend to show up in threads about china or its government and attempt to defend it.

[Jakes Progress]

9. The Chinese have been

studying the methods of George Bush. You lose an election. Get the SC to ratify you. You lie about a war. Get the Congress to let you off the hook. In his world, if the government tells a lie, it isn't a lie.

[Athletic Grrl]

10. And have your driver's license number changed

therefore purging one of previous DUI's and whatnot.

No way those two girls were 16. I saw the spreadsheets. He and a few others all seemed to be born on Jan. 1st, like a thoroughbread horse. I doubt they even have birth certificates for half the athletes in their sports programs, given they were likely born in the hinterlands somewhere.

[DRoseDARs]

15. And for a few thousand dollars in brides to the IOC, your tween can be an Olympic competitor too!

Package includes: Transparent assurances from government officials of age legitimacy, falsified documents, and even a cursory investigation to placate concerns that young children are being used as political props. S&H not included. Please allow 6-8 weeks for delivery.

[superconnected]

18. And if you call right now, you get free IOC backing!

[BearSquirrel2]

34. This as opposed to ...

This as opposed to young girls being used as human mules or human machinery or worse, human sex dolls. Based potential alternatives, political prop is a pretty attractive option.

[superconnected]

16. "put to rest", bull. I don't believe them, does anyone..?

With the integrity sacrificed how can we trust they don't cheat in any sport.

The olympic comittee's integrity has been sacrificed too. Sorry, no confidence. It's time for the watchers to turn the tv off.

[ForeignSpectator]

19. So how old do they have to be? 16?

Well, ok then... if the IOC says it's alright I guess it is...

China is the biggest turn-off there can be. If they pull off this coverup, I am sure they can cover up massive doping, too. I don't trust any of this at all.

[Angleae]

22. They have to turn 16 during the year of competition.

They can be 15 during the olympics so long as they have their 16th birthday by Dec 31

[BearSquirrel2]

35. No hips ...

None of these girls have hips. Wearing generic street clothes and cropped hair, all of these girls would be indistinguishable from little boys. That's my tipoff that they are all underage.

[undeterred]

43. oksana baiul was 16 when she won gold and she didn't have hips

there should be two divisions in some of these sports: before hips and after hips
Practicing the sport causes low body fat, which delays puberty.

[LisaL]

55. Are you confusing her with Tara Lipinski?

Oksana had hips at 16. Lipinski was 15 when she won her gold medal.

[bitchkitty]

56. Not valid - I have narrow, skinny hips

and I'm waaaaaaaaaay past girlhood.

[Bluebear]

21. Oh, well! That settles that!

:eyes:

[INDIA]

24. posted by ckramer...lol!

[Teaser]

25. IOC = corrupted, old , bribe takers

.

[go west young man]

27. Hacker uncovers 'proof' that Chinese gymnast is underage

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4578241.ece

[AngryOldDem]

28. Well, I don't know why this wasn't settled by the passports.

I mean, what other rock-solid proof do you need?

:sarcasm:

[Towlie]

29. Let's short them a trillion on their treasury bonds and tell them our "official" count is correct.

[distantearlywarning]

37. I want to recommend this post.

[not fooled]

63. Fabulous!

Let's short them a trillion on their treasury bonds and tell them our "official" count is correct.

:think:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[global1]

38. I Understand McCain Has Hired Chinese Consultants To Steal The Nov........

election for him.

[buzzard]

40. I am not taking sides in this but just wanted to say my son has had a couple of

Chinese girlfriends and both looked like they were about 14 or 15 when they were actually around 17 and 18.

[AlphaCentauri]

46. yep! that's why many americans like asian girls

they can be 29 and look like 16

[ilovemesomechickens]

48. so americans are pedophiles?

oh well, since we are sterotyping asians and americans...
let me just add how suprised those 'americans' will be when those '29 year old asians that look 16' turn 40 and look like 60.

[Skittles]

78. they like grown women in schoolgirl outfits

it's pretty creepy

[mainer]

84. Um, most Asians look younger all their lives

I haven't seen a single Asian American woman who was forty and looked sixty. Ditto for Black women. It's the fair-skinned redheaded caucasians who also smoke who'll look sixty at age forty.

[buzzard]

66. It doesn't have anything to do with what age they look as far as I as I can see, I was curious as to

his choice in girls and he told me he likes smart girls that he can talk to without seeming to be condescending.

[alfredo]

74. They are under the impression that Asian women are compliant.

[Codeine]

77. That's baloney too.

WTF is it about people around here that they can't accept that a relationship between a white guy and an Asian woman is just as healthy and beautiful as their own? Assholes.

[alfredo]

80. Oh sure. But there is a segment of our society that cannot accept

women being equal and look for a woman who will accept his "authority." They say they are disenchanted with American women.


My Army buddy married into a Japanese family. He wasn't looking for a compliant women, he was looking for love. They've been married thirty years. We've discussed the stereotypes imposed on Asian women, and his disgust for men who think they can dominate an Asian women is quite evident.

[Codeine]

76. Fuck you.

The implication that a person who dates an Asian woman is automatically a pedophile should be enough to get you bounced from this board.

[AlphaCentauri]

79. Fundamentalist tent to read the Bible literally and they dismiss it's symbolism

:eyes:

[Codeine]

81. I am astonished

by how much sense that didn't make.

[AlphaCentauri]

93. Learn to complement a woman

most women like to hear they look younger than they are

[happygoluckytoyou]

42. in 6 years, when these 16 year-olds are 18, maybe they will speak up

[dysfunctional press]

72. ala traci lords...

who made overnight statutory rapists out of a lot of porn actors.

[parkia00]

47. Trying to get a neutral prespective here....

I know I will get flamed for this but I feel it needs to be addressed. There is definitely a very open anti-China bias by many DU-members who we all know are very passionate about their beliefs. Sometimes these emotions can get in the way of logic. All the replies here are one sided and that the Chinese are automatically guilty of what they are accused off. The IOC is also the villain and corrupt; in bed with the Chinese if you may. Can we step back a little bit and try to see the entire picture instead of focusing on China's supposed guilt? Please?

I have been following this story on many other sites and reading the comments from people all over the world. The comments are very eye opening. The problem here are the accusations and allegations. The trouble is that of all the allegations, there is no definitive prove that China is guilty of what's it's being accused off. None. Allegations from one person or a thousand people is still NOT proof. Now to the hacker who supposed found proof through his searches on the internet. This is just ONE source. From all the comments on other news sites I have read there were numerous questions brought up about this hacker. Among them were:

(1)Is this US hacker reliable? Could he be biased?

(2)If this hacker was good, could it be possible for this hacker to hack and add information of his own to the site which brings into issue, the first question.

(3) With the huge population in China, there will certainly be people that share the exact names. Could there be gymnasts that share the same name as well which leads to a case of mistaken identity?

I think these are very valid points that were brought up here that needs to be addressed.

If the situation was reversed and it was a Chinese hacker that found documents that he says proved a US gymnast was under age I seriously think many people here would simply brush off such accusation as being ridiculous. Why so eager to believe that one US hacker?

Now some people point to the physical appearance of the Chinese gymnasts as proof. I'm afraid to say that idea is not very well thought out. Saying the girls are smaller and younger looking than the US gymnast is proof that they are under age is pretty silly. To me Shawn Johnson looks like a 12 year old. She too is very small. All gymnasts are small! And to make things worse, it's a known fact that Asians generally look younger than westerners when they are in their teens. So this "proof" goes out the door because it cannot be verified.

Some argue that by seeing the teeth on the gymnast one can tell the age. Many factors can effect a persons growth from nutrition to the enviroment. When I was in high school there was a small senior that looked more like a 12 year old. His voice had not broken and he still had some of his milk teeth! Again this is not proof.

And when it comes to proof, I ask you as a fellow DU member, what kind of proof do you need from China to satisfy you? I read replies by fellow members that the documents are fake, the parents are lying, the coaches are lying and every other proof is a fake and everyone is lying! So that being the case, it seems ANY evidence brought fourth by China will never be good enough. Is that the case here? If it is, could there be and under layer of bias swimming around those responses? This is like a court of law. In any court case, solid evidence needs to be brought up against the defendant and the defendant can then bring up their own evidence. If the prosecutor brings up evidence that cannot be verified and the court rejects or simply don't want to hear the evidence from the defendant, how can this case even go on in any respectable court of law? Remember the term innocent until proven guilty? It's not guilty until proven innocent you know.

I'm glad that the IOC decided that there was not enough proof that the Chinese gymnasts are under age because based on these allegations alone there was not enough proof. If the IOC did strip the medals simply based on these evidence at hand then they would have open a real can of worms! The next Olympics will have teams of lawyers following each national team all ready to find even the smallest scrap of evidence and try to get other teams disqualified to increase their medal tallies. If other evidence uncovered at a later time can prove without any doubt that the said gymnasts were indeed underage then I would have no problems with them loosing their medals at all. NOT however what some people want; that being for all the Chinese in all the events to be stripped of their medals and banned from the 2012 Olympics. That is too much! Even though there are many people who would only be too eager to believe all the Chinese athletes cheated that's why they won. I refuse to subscribe to such simple thought patterns. Reading other websites and what replies worldwide readers made about this incident in newspaper websites, you will not be hard pressed to see a great divide of opinions. The vast majority of responses from the US and Australia believe in China's guilt while the rest of the responses from other parts of the world including the UK think other wise. Many claim it's just a case of sour grapes when He Kexin beat US's Nastia Liukin for a gold in the uneven bars.

And before anyone quickly shoot out knee jerk silly responses like you support China thus you support slave labor and or I'm a damn commie agent in China's pay; I think it's also important as to explain why I'm trying to swim up stream when it's simply easier to swim with the flow of everyone else. I've been a DU member for many years although I seldom post. Mostly read the articles and forums. However I do post when I think something needs to be addressed. Why this post? Because I detest Freepers and what they stand for and how they behave. I believe that I am a progressive liberal and one of the most important attributes of being such I person is to have the ability for self thought. Being able to analysize a suituation and reach a conclusion without personal bias. Being scientific in your thought I guess. It however pains me to see some members post replies repeatedly that are more freeper like rather than DU like. Posting accusations left and right. Using a wide brush to paint people in all the same stereotyping light. Behaving in a way like how the masses of right wing supporters believe and cheer Limbaugh when he make a comment they want to hear. That's fine cause they are sheeple.

DU members should not be sheeple!. Please? With a cherry on top?

[LisaL]

54. I would like to know if these girls participated in international

competitions outside of China and what age they declared there.

[ForeignSpectator]

57. Do they pay you by word count, commie agent?

Just kidding but since you come up with ready accusations against you I thought I may... ;)

Now, seriously : I didn't read all the posts but those I did read express deep distrust against "the Chinese".

'I' have very, very deep bias against their stalinistic and cut-throat capitalism embracing government indeed. And if I don't belive them, it is because they gave plenty of reason not to do. ( broken promises about "guaranteed" freedom of press, i.e. no freedom of travel for reporters, limited internet access, etc )
A million people displaced for the olympics. A massive police force ( more than spectators fitting in the stadium ) to quench all protest in its roots to uphold a nice facade.
They even played in recorded sequences in the "live" opening ceremony and thought no one would notice.

Fact is, there was a huge concerted effort in China starting years ago aimed at winning the most gold in 2008. That, in and of itself, is okay but something to be aware of. Now, would a government that displaces millions stop at tweaking passports to not lose face in front of the international community? After all, the story about databases holding the chinese gymnasts with ages under 15/16 was in the NYT. ( I am NOT saying this is proof for anything, it's just quite possible )

So... what is the bottom line? China has precious culture ( that what survived the mao revolution ) and long history. But their government and society where the individual is worth nothing, nowadays for the sake of evermore profits, is a nightmare vision for me that fills me with deep doubts about anything that government says.

The bottom line is that I think it might be very well possible they cheated. And all "proof" is in the hands of the Chinese.

I take a look at the pictures and think to myself "yeah right". After all, the entire team looks like 12... And Shawn Johnson is little but her face mature enough to be 16.

So looking at everything I just don't buy it. That is just my opinion, no verdict for others to follow. It's not sour grapes because of Liukin, I am not even American. And I certainly won't reverse my opinion because of some brain-amputated freepers having the same for different ( totally dumbass ) reasons.

I stated my reasons above and I think they are good ones for my doubts. Does that sound sheeple freeperish to you?

If you think that everything is legit, that's fine. Maybe we can agree that you can't really tell 100% certain what the deal is? That's how I feel about it. ( although I lean towards them cheating )



PS : in the wake of writing this post, I googled "abusive chinese gymnastics training methods" and the youtube videos are horrible.

[parkia00]

65. No, not sheeple at all.

A very well thought out analytic reply. Thank you! :)

[ForeignSpectator]

82. You forgot "civil"! Civil, too...

:hi:

[mainer]

83. Great post. Biometrics are indeed different in Asia.

I've traveled extensively in Southeast Asia, and have observed that adolescents in Asia look several years younger than American adolescents. I think it's largely due to nutrition (no dairy products). Asian Americans born in the U.S. tend to be much taller than their counterparts overseas. I remember being astonished, after talking to this "kid" of about ten in Ho Chi Minh City, to find out he was really seventeen.

[ckramer]

52. Give Chinese credit - Beijing Olympics is really a smashing success

I have been enjoying every minutes of the Olympics shows on NBC the past 8 nights.

I love Shawn Johnson.


Thank you NBC, you guys have done a great job reporting!

Everyone, don't miss tonight's closing ceremony.

[dysfunctional press]

73. you think that nbc did a great job...?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ckramer]

86. Yes - NBC did a great job

I enjoyed it every night.

But I do think they should also show more of the best non-American sports in other countries.

[Odin2005]

59. The IOC is politically influenced and corrupt.

Remember the scandal surrounding the Salt Lake City winter games in 2002? Then there was the judging scandal involving those Russian and Canadian figure-skaters and the gold medal.

I'm sure the IOC big-wings got nice bribes from the Chinese government.

[brentspeak]

60. In other words, the IOC is looking the other way

What a joke.

[LisaL]

69. If chinese produced a passport or a birth certificate,

then there is no real proof of any wrongdoing. Chinese simply say that whatever was reported in some newspaper about the girl being only 13 a year ago is incorrect. Or that passport beats whatever was uncovered by some hacker any day. Unless the girl or the parents were to say the girl is not 16 (which they won't), what's IOC going to do? It's not like the girl is a tree where you can count the rings. And you can't go just by looks. I, however, doubt IOC wants to dig into this deeply.

[mainer]

87. Asian growth charts

I just looked this up -- interesting data. Comparing the growth charts of American girls vs. Thai girls (the thai chart link is below), at age 16, the 50th percentile for height and weight is quite different:

Height: American girls: 164 cm. Thai girls: 155 cm.
Weight: American girls: 55 kg. Thai girls: 48 kg



The American growth chart is here:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/growthcharts/set1clinical/cj41l022.pdf

Roughly, the average Thai sixteen year old girl is about 15 pounds lighter and about three and a half inches shorter than the average American 16-year-old.

I'm still trying to find Chinese statistics. But it's clear that Asian girls are smaller than American girls all the way up to maturity.

[mainer]

88. Teeth may erupt later in other races

Just found this fascinating article from the Indian medical literature:

http://www.ijdr.in/article.asp?issn=0970-9290;year=2007;volume=18;issue=4;spage=186;epage=189;aulast=Gupta

Objective: The existing eruption schedules for permanent and deciduous dentition are based on studies in the Western population. Since Indians differ from Westerners racially, genetically, and environmentally, these studies fail to provide relevant guidance on the eruption schedule in the Indian population. This study aims at determining the eruption pattern of permanent mandibular molars and central incisors in the south Indian population.

Materials and Methods: 10,156 apparently healthy Indian children in the age-group of 6-9 years were examined with mouth mirror and probe under adequate illumination for the status of the eruption of the permanent mandibular first molar and permanent mandibular central incisor. Pearson's Chi-square test with Yates' continuity correction was used to calculate the P -value for comparison of proportion between girls and boys. The values obtained in our study were compared with the standard values. The Z-test with continuity correction was used to calculate the P -value.

Results: As per our study, the permanent mandibular first molars and central incisors erupted one to two years later compared to the values reported in Westerners. The earlier eruption of the permanent mandibular first molars compared to the permanent mandibular central incisors, as well as the earlier eruption of both the teeth in girls compared to boys, were in accordance with the existing literature.

[pegleg]

90. why is there even an age limit? nt

[tiptoe]

94. IOC passes eligibility matters to the Int'l Gym. Fed: "not taking gov't-issued docs at face value"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=215&topic_id=74034&mesg_id=74131