2-25-1964: Liston vs Clay !!!!

[H2O Man]

A post on “General Discussion” reminded me that it was on this date in 1964 that Cassius Clay upset heavyweight champion Charles “Sonny” Liston in Miami Beach. It was one of the greatest heavyweight title fights in the history of boxing.

I pulled out one of my boxing scrapbooks from 1964, and have spent part of this snowy day reading the old newspaper and magazine articles from before and after that bout. Included is a four-page article that Clay wrote for “The Ring,” boxing's best magazine, for its pre-fight edition. “If I'm not ready, then nobody is,” wrote young Cassius. “Liston moves and thinks too slowly,” he explained in backing up his prediction to take Liston in out in eighth round.

Backing up a prediction in a magazine article is, of course, much easier than fighting Sonny Liston in the ring. It is hard for younger sports fans to understand how scary Liston was in that era. Think of the intimidation factors of the young George Foreman, and of the prime Iron Mike Tyson, squared. Boxing experts at the time debates if he was simply the greatest since Joe Louis, or perhaps the greatest heavyweight champion ever?

From reform schools and prison, Sonny Liston had learned to box. He was a national amateur champion at a time when amateur boxing was tougher than today. When he prepared for his pro debut, a top boxing promoter offered Rocky Marciano a huge purse to defend his title against Liston; Marciano opted to defend it once more – against light heavyweight champion Archie Moore – for a fraction of what he could have made fighting Liston. (Years later, when Marciano accompanied Howard Cosell to Liston's training camp, and the journalist suggested Rocky approach the hostile champion, Marciano responded, “Are you crazy?”)

Neither Floyd Patterson nor Ingemar Johansson were interested in fighting Liston. While these two fought their trilogy of title bouts, Liston was busy fighting five times per year. At that rate, he was able to keep his skills at their peek. However, when Patterson – then the first man to hold the title twice – decided to defend against Liston, several things happened.

First, Floyd's long-time trainer and mentor Cus D'Amato refused to work with the champion. Cus believed that not only would Sonny probably defeat Floyd, but that this would allow the mafia to control the title. Second, President Kennedy invited Patterson to the White House; in their meeting, the President, who knew about the mafia's role in professional boxing from his days in the Senate, discouraged Patterson from fighting Liston. And third, Liston was reducing the number of fights he had in the year leading up to his challenge for the title.

Liston destroyed Patterson in one round. The next year's re-match was a replay. The boxing community saw what at the time was a huge heavyweight in Liston, with good hand and foot speed, a powerful jab, and KO power in both his right-cross and left hook.

Cassius Clay had been a light heavyweight in the Rome Olympics. He had been decked by England's Henry Cooper, and almost upset by a blown up light heavyweight, Doug Jones, leading up to his fight with Liston. While the betting odds were 8-to-1, it is important to remember that these only reflect what the professional gamblers and Vegas thought. In the boxing community, the odds were a million to one.

Clay cut an album, “I Am The Greatest!” and had a hilarious meeting with a new musical group from England, called “The Beatles,” in his Miami training camp. These tactics drew a lot of media attention, but hardly endeared Clay to the tough old men of the boxing community.

Besides that, Clay had engaged in a campaign to harass the champion. He raised hell at a Vegas casino, until Liston got very close to him, and threatened to “rip (his) fucking tongue out, and stick it up (his) ass.” Clay also “visited” Liston's home at 2 am, again raising hell, until Liston came outside with a shotgun.

Years later, Muhammad Ali would admit that Charles “Sonny” Liston was the only opponent who ever really frightened him. Older readers will recall the mad scene at the morning weigh-in, when the commission doctor almost called the fight off. Even the great Sugar Ray Robinson, a member of Clay's camp, was concerned. Only three people around Clay understood what he was doing: Angelo Dundee, Drew “Bundini” Brown, and Malcolm X. Clay would later explain that he knew that as an ex-convict, the only thing that concerned Liston was a “crazy person.” So Clay did crazy.

That night, during the ring instructions, a funny thing happened. Liston was a big man, but he loomed much larger in people's minds. In fact, he wore several thick towels under his robe when entering the ring, to appear even larger. Yet the challenger, Cassius Clay, made a point of standing straight up, so that he looked down into Liston's eyes (Dundee encouraged this).

The fight was intense. Many people “remember” Cassius winning “easily.” That didn't happen. He won convincingly, but both he and Dundee would say, in later years, that Liston hurt him more than anyone else ever would. In the fifth round, Liston took advantage of some “medicine” that went from his gloves into Clay's eyes in the 4th round, and landed vicious body shots. (I doubt that any other fighter in history would have been on their feet after taking those shots.)

Liston quit on his stool at the bell for the seventh round. Clay had hurt him badly in round six. More, Liston had suffered a serious injury to his left shoulder earlier in the fight. Both at the time, and years later, some believed that Liston “faked” the injury. He did not. I'm looking at photos from the three-and-one-half hours he spent in a hospital after the fight, having the torn muscle treated. The doctors who treated him that night had no connection to boxing per say, and none to Liston; they agreed hat he could not extend the left arm, and had X-rays showing the very real damage.

I believe that three events actually started the Decade of the 1960s: JFK being assassinated in Dallas; the Beatles coming to the USA; and Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali winning the Heavyweight Title. The day after this bout, the new champion told reporters that he was a member of the Nation of Islam. He was changing his name to Cassius X (“Muhammad Ali” came a bit later.) And the rest is history.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Nice piece. Many thanks.

[H2O Man]

4. Thanks.

It's hard to believe that it has been almost fifty years. I remember when I was a kid, listening to my father & uncles talk about the great champions of their era, and thinking it was ancient history.

I don't think any fighter from any era could have beat Clay/Ali that night.

[Earth Bound Misfit]

2. Excellent piece H2O thank you.

I was 8 yrs old and remember it vividly. Ali was most definitely "The Greatest"

[H2O Man]

5. Right!

It stood out from regular boxing and sports. My father, uncles, and their friends thought Liston would kill the young challenger. They wanted to see Sonny shut Clay's big mouth. My oldest brother thought Liston was on his way to becoming recognized as the greatest heavyweight ever. And my other brother was big on Clay.

The fight surprised people. Some said "fix," and others thought it was a fluke. It's interesting to consider what might have happened, if their rematch hadn't been postponed, due to Ali's hernia. Liston, who was aging, had gotten himself into tremendous shape. Even Howard Cosell, who despised Liston and had become close to Ali, felt Liston was ready to win the rematch. But then the hernia, and Liston, like most older boxers, could not maintain that level. Cosell noted that Sonny aged visibly in his training camp, and was a shell of himself when he entered the ring in Maine.

The Ali that entered that ring, however, had visibly matured. He was gaining what trainers call "man-strength." And he went through the division easily as champion. The other "what if?" is how he would have done, but for that 30 month forced retirement.

[Auggie]

3. Great piece. Thanks for posting

[H2O Man]

6. Thank you.

It was a wild time for boxing fans!

[JonLP24]

7. Great stuff

I love how you explain things in that even I can understand what you're saying. Like when you describe how intimidating Liston was by mentioning the intimidation factors of a prime Mike Tyson squared. I'm well aware how good and intimidating Mike Tyson was based on how boxing and sports commentators talk about him. Now I think I have a very good visual picture of how intimidating Sonny Liston was.

Also it is always interesting when you talk about the "pre-fight" about as much as the fight itself. You always have something interesting to say there and I notice when you talk about today's fighters and their pre-fight preparations, you sometimes compare to what he is doing to what Muhammad Ali did. It seems Ali is the best at fight preparations as he was the best in the ring.

[H2O Man]

9. Everlast

literally made a training glove for Sonny Liston and Rubin Carter in their Philly days. Most training gloves for middle- to heavyweights are 16 ounces. But very few people would spar either of these two with that sized gloves and head gear. So, Everlast made 24-ounce gloves for them. They also developed their "body shields" at that time.

In a fight leading up to his challenge against Patterson, Angelo Dundee watched Liston knock a top 10 opponent out cold with a jab. The punch broke off a number of the guy's teeth inside his mouth guard. Dundee believes that Liston had the most dangerous jab in heavyweight history. The great Joe Louis could slow a man down with his piston-like jab; Ali could win a fight with his rapid triple jabs; and Larry Holmes could stun a man with his. But Liston could literally knock a man unconscious with his.

Hence, in training, the idea was to not allow Sonny to land the punch. And if you can't land your jab, it is difficult to land anything else on the outside. If you watch the films of the Liston vs Clay fight, you'll see just how focused Cassius was on avoidingthat Liston jab.

[RagAss]

8. Great job. It seems so remarkable to me, someone who came to first know...

about Ali during the lead up to and showdown with Frazier in 1971, that this huge drama with Liston had played out 7 years prior to that! I wish I was older so that I could have had a memory of both of these incredible events of his career.

The greatest career of any athlete in my lifetime.

[H2O Man]

10. You guys get me

babbling on and on here! (Thanks for that.)

While Ali was in the forced retirement, of course, Frazier was coming up in the ranks. After KOing Zora Folley, Ali had hoped to fit in a couple more defenses: the first would have been a rematch with Floyd Patterson; the next opponent would have been Oscar Bonavena; and then either Frazier or Jerry Quarry. (Ali even offered to fight both Joe and Jerry in one night.)

Ellis won the WBA tournament. He was one of Ali's sparring partners, who Rubin had easily defeated. Frazier was offered a spot in the tournament, but declined. The primary reason was that Liston's old trainer, Willie Reddish (a sparring partner for Joe Louis) had joined Yank Durham in managing Frazier and middleweight contender Gypsy Joe Harris. Reddish knew that Frazier's style did not match well against Liston -- also considered for the tournament. Joe was decked twice in one round by Oscar (who Ali KOed in 15 in his second bout on the comeback), and went 15 bruising rounds with him later. Mexican contender Manuel Ramos hurt Joe in the second round of their fight. Reddish knew that Liston was too dangerous at that point. And, as styles make fights, Sonny's sparring partner, George Foreman, would destroy Joe in two rounds.

I've also read that Yank felt that 6' 5" Ernie Terrell -- the Octopus -- would have been a problem for Joe at that point in his career. Thus, Joe met Buster Mathis for the "heavyweight championship" of NYS, Maine, and Hooterville, and improved his skills while the WBA tournament took place. He would devastate Ellis in five rounds, leading up to the Fight of the Century.

It's a fascxinating era. Sometimes, I think about writing a book about it. There have been some good ones about specific fighters -- mainly Frazier -- but none with some of the fascinating, behind-the-scenes dynamics.

[Auggie]

11. A lot of us here were too young to remember the Liston/Clay fight...

(I was six), but we certainly remember the fights of the 1970s. Your perspective helps me, and likely a lot of others, fill in the blanks on Ali's early career.

"Clay did crazy..." I had never heard that before. Smart strategy.

[H2O Man]

16. There are a couple

good books about Liston. They tell how a lot of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement had liked Floyd Patterson, who was a quiet but solid supporter in marches in the deep South. Even the racist police opted not to start a fight with Floyd when the champion drank from "whites only" water fountains, and told reporters, "Tastes the same to me."

Those Civil Rights leaders were concerned that Liston would, as champion, serve as a less desireable representative. But to the few who actually talked to Sonny, he assured them, "I won't embarass you." Liston actually did do some work with children in hospitals, and with convicts in prison; the media, of course, never reported those things.

After winning the title, Liston had hoped that the people in Philly would greet his plane at the airport. He was crushed when not a single person showed up. And, other than when a couple cops gave him a hard time for doing early morning road work in a public park, he really avoided trouble as champion.

When the young Cassius Clay first started dogging him, being introduced and entering the ring in Vegas when Liston had the Patterson rematch, Sonny thought the "kid" was a riot. He actually liked Cassius, and figured that in another decade, it might be his turn. And when Liston signed to defend against Clay, he actually called Cassius, to discuss how to coordinate a pre-fight build-up. Sonny felt it was such a mismatch, that he needed to build interest.

But Clay -- as he later would with Frazier -- made it personal. He really had to, against those he recognized as dangerous. He started getting on Liston's nerves. There are some films where, early on, Sonny was joking in a good-natured way with Clay, and with reporters. And other films show him turning ugly. At one casino, he aimed a pistol at Clay, and pulled the trigger; it was a blank, but it upset Clay. Hence, the second casino confrontation. Then the early morning lawn incident. Wild.

There are some film clips of their weigh-in. Cassius was fined pretty severely for his outrageous behavior. The doctor who did their physicals told reporters, "This man is scared to death." (I'm looking at the press articles from between the weigh-in and fight.) He was prepared to rule Clay's blood pressure required his being hospitalized. Reporters assumed a psychiatric hospitalization.

Ninety minutes after the show, Cassius's blood pressure was back to normal. As a former fighter and trainer of many fighters, I have to question how much energy Ali burned up doing that routine. You want to keep your fighters calm and relaxed for 48 hours before the fight. Dundee told my brother that he learned early on that the rules of boxing just didn't apply to Ali!

[RagAss]

12. Please write that book !...that era needs to be expanded upon by someone

who Knows it.

These were the Golden years of boxing - at least for people my age.

Frazier-Ellis was the first big fight I remember(grade 5). The build-up, especially in the NYC tri-state area where I grew up, must have been a big one since even us 5th grade boys were talking it up and taking sides.
Frazier looked relentless, when I finally saw the fight on tape about a week later on ABC(common in those days as you remember). Later that year it was Ali-Quarry and then Ali-Bonavena. I don't remember if Frazier had a tune-up fight before the big showdown with Ali in 1971.

[H2O Man]

15. Thanks.

I have at least two boxing books I'm considering. That would likely be the first.

Smokin' Joe did have one fight between Ellis and Ali. Frazier destroyed Ellis in February of 1970. Ali returned that October, stopping Quarry. Both camps wanted to make the fight in the first half of 1971.

Ali needed more laps around the track, as Dundee said. So he signed to fight the tough South American Oscar "Ringo" Bonavena in december. Dundee actually wanted him to have at least one more bout, before Frazier -- but Ali had actually sparred Joe while he was in the forced retirement, and thought it was no contest. Of course, Joe liked Muhammad at that time!

Anyhow, Yank knew that Joe peaked with Ellis. It was a brutal, one-sided fight. Joe needed a tune-up, to maintain near that peak level. So, a month after Ali TKOed Quarry, Joe defended against light heavyweight champion Bob Foster. Bob Foster is on everyone's top tier of great light heavyweights champions, but he didn't do well competing against heavyweights. It was a safe fight for Joe, and he took Foster out in two rounds.

In December, Ali TKOed Oscar in 15. Then, the build-up for the Fight of the Century began. And that ended a curious friendship between Frazier and Ali. Joe had been good to Muhammad: the two hung out, and Joe took Ali for rides, sometimes to airports, sometimes to talk. Joe gave Ali much needed money, too. Ali's antics outside the ring, both before and after their fights, really did hurt Joe.

Trivia: A couple weeks after their third fight, the two put their differences behind them for a day, and marched in Trenton, NJ, in support of Rubin Carter.

[RagAss]

17. Thanks for the background on the Ali/Frazier build-up....yes Bob Foster...

That was a devastating KO. Foster had a killer left hook and dominated the Light-Heavys...but Frazier made him look like a welterweight that night..it is tough to watch that fight, even all these years later...saw it several times on Classic and on you tube...just never had the timeframe of it being prior to the 1971 Ali showdown.

Frazier-Bob Foster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5T8ig61Ak

[era veteran]

13. That was well written, riveting as it brought back

memories. I was 11 at the time with all these Lifer Army buddies of my Dad hating on Ali. The young kids liked him and this was Augusta GA, home of James Brown, but held on to segregation long after the law changed.
The fights were a bigger thing then.

[H2O Man]

14. Boxing was bigger.

The heavyweight division has always had a "bigger than life" image. But there have been periods -- always following a true great champion -- where things have been comparatively dull in the division. Following Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney (Dempsey was at his best in gaining the title, then an inactive champion; Tunney was a great stylist, but lacked appeal) there were five lesser champions. Then, the great Joe Louis, followed by three great chamopions who didn't have great competition -- the third being Marciano. After Rocky retired, two light heavyweights -- Moore and Patterson -- fought for the title. Floyd lost to Ingo, won it back, then fought Liston.

When you look at these great fighters, each represents their era in socio-political ways .... and one must start with John L. Sullivan, the Boston Strong Boy; Jack Johnson, the first recognized black heavyweight champion (there had actually been a black bare-knuckle champion, who held the title for about three hours); Dempsey and the Roaring '20s; Louis and WW2; Marciano and the quiet decade; Liston and organized crime.

Cassius was so "1960s." Now, he could not have done what he did in any other country, as far as the draft case. He would have been a champion, if he boxed. Or, he could easily have played pro football or basketball (he had unreal ability in both sports). But he brought huge excitement to the fight game, in part by being so great (though not a technically good fighter!), and part by the force of his personality merged with the times.

When he retired, the other great champions were finished: Liston dead, Patterson so old, Frazier was done, and Foreman seemed done, too. Holmes was a great fighter, but was an imitation of Ali outside the ring. Tyson created huge excitement. I remember a friend who counseled him as a teen telling me that despite his talent in the ring, that Mike would self-destruct before our eyes. He did. Lennox Lewis was great, but usually boring. The title was vacant for years after he retired. The Klitschko brothers are, like Lewis, talented, and too big for most heavyweights.

I doubt any heavyweight will be viewed as exciting and consistently victorious -- and against serious competition -- for at least five more years. And while there really are great fighters in the lower weights, and some outstanding fights, without a recognized and respected heavyweight champion, it just isn't the same.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. Terrific Post

Thanks for that.
GAC