Survey: Best Heavyweight Champion

[H2O Man]

No single athlete defines his or her time to the extent of the world's heavyweight champion. Boxing has long been the sport most tied to politics, as well as to great writers. Hence, at the end of the 19th century, there was John L. Sullivan; in the early 1900s, the champion Jack Johnson shocked the country; or when we think of the Roaring '20s, Jack Dempsey comes to mind. In the WW2 era, we think of young Joe Louis, avenging his only defeat against former champion Max Schmeling. The 1950s saw Rocky Marciano, who was very different from the brash Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali of the 1960s (and then '70s).The "lost youth" of the late '80s found a voice in Mike Tyson; old guys thanked Big George Foreman for what he did in the '90s.

Who do you think was the greatest Heavyweight Champion of all time? Why? His most impressive fight(s)? And who rounds out your top five?

[Upfront]

1. Ali

[OldLeftieLawyer]

2. Rocky Marciano

My father had been a heavyweight boxer in his youth, as was my godfather, and they taught me a lot about the art.

I've followed boxing since then, the mid-1950s, and I think there was no one like Rocky Marciano. It would have been terrific to see the young Rocky fight the young Cassius Clay - my money would have been on Rocky.

Most of the guys since then have been real bums. Tyson, if he had been properly trained and disciplined, might have been a great boxer, but, as it turned out, he was a brilliant brawler, but he lacked finesse, and then he went insane.

[H2O Man]

6. Rocky Marciano

is one of the fascinating characters from boxing. Even as an older guy, when they had the (kind of) silly computer match, where he sparred Ali for many rounds, Ali said the guy was intense. I've always thought he was a heck of a role model for younger guys in any sport. He worker hard, and he walked away on top!

[chlamor]

3. Who's second best-Cause

There ain't no doubt about number one. No faster hands at that weight ever.
And PRETTTY

[Snap]

21. #2....that'd be

Teo Stephenson, I have a recollection of a guy Gregg Page (I think)
I'm not sure what happened, but he had the stuff.

[H2O Man]

25. Teo Stevenson was a good amateur

and it is fun to speculate on if he could have adjusted to professional boxing. He had the size and power, but the European style usually doesn't translate well in the pros.

Greg Page had potential that he never capitalized on. He lacked discipline. It's sad that he ended up fighting too long, and was seriously injured. (Had he used his talents, Greg may have given Larry Holmes a run for his money.)

[chlamor]

31. Page WAS good

Always fought the weight issue and the high life.

how about the awkward Ken Norton. He rocked Ali in their 2nd fight and the decision was stolen from him. Ali didn't like fighting Norton

[Snap]

33. Brutal

I saw the Ali/Norton fight. I thought it would be a walk, all Ali elegance vs. this sort of wooden buff Ken Norton. I ran into an old pal pre fight who said it would be Norton, I laughed but watched pretty closely. I don't think I've ever seen punishment both sides like that. Norton had a right like a catapult.

[H2O Man]

34. I didn't see any of the Ali-Norton

fights in person. My brother saw the third one in New York. Ken Norton is a great guy. He was in a terrible automobile accident years ago. Glad he is okay. I can say this: when a lot of fighters and other athletes have forgotten how to be polite to fans, men like Ken Norton stand out. He'll go way out of his way to treat people well. Way out of his way.

That said, when he boxed Foreman, it was scarey to see him get hit so hard. The George Foreman of those days was brutal.

[H2O Man]

4. Muhammad Ali.

I think he'd have taken any champion from any era. I think he was at his peak at these times: <1> the Cleveland Williams fight, just before the 3 1/2 year lay-off; <2> for the second Jerry Quarry fight, then the George Foreman fight, during his comeback. I had felt that the williams and Quarry 2 fights were his peak, and then I read where Angelo Dundee said the same thing. His reflexes were better for Quarry, but he was mentally the best(on the comeback) for George.

At the number two position, I'd have a tie between Joe Louis and George Foreman. Next, I'd put Charles "Sonny" Liston, before he fought Ali. At 5th, I'd put Joe Frazier.

There are a number of others, such as Dempsey and Marciano, that could be at about Frazier's level. Jack Johnson was a great athlete, and with modern techniques, would have been very good at his weight. Guys like Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield could hang with the best.

A big question mark has to be Mike Tyson. A person could make a good case for him being up in the top ten, or for just the opposite.

[autorank]

12. At his peak, I think Holmes had the best left jab ever.

[H2O Man]

14. Holmes jab

was a thing of beauty. It was powerful. Even as an old man, who had no business in the ring, Larry's jab was intense.

[autorank]

17. Right, his jab was like Hank Aaron's swing! Perfect indeed!

[Trajan]

5. Number One ...

Muhammed Ali ...

Number two ? ... Jack Johnson ....

[gordianot]

7. I'm torn Ali obviously.

He was the prettiest, ever to grace the ring. The almost perfect boxer.

Young George Foreman was unbelievable power house, he almost killed Joe Frazier. An inspiration to old men everywhere.

Did you see the partial computer generated match between Ali and Rocky Marciano in the 70's? The computer gave it to Marciano. Ali disputed it and I agree Ali probably would have won. One interesting comment was Ali's observation that he was sore from sparring with the old man Marciano.

Curious though who does Ali rate as the greatest beside himself.

[H2O Man]

9. "My Golden Fights" by Ali

From his 2004 book, "The Soul of a Butterfly," page 115:

"Of all the men I have fought,
Liston was the scariest;
Foreman was the most powerful;
Patterson the most skillful;
the toughest was Joe frazier."

[gordianot]

18. My Grandpa saw Liston box when Liston was in the Missouri penitentiary.

He was a Liston fan for life and followed his career after they released Liston. His exhibition matches were standing room only. I understand how Liston would be scary, very few in the prison wanted to box or spar with him.

[H2O Man]

19. In his day, Liston was a big heavyweight.

And until Miami, people were saying he was one of the -- if not the -- greatest of all time. Dundee tells about watching Sonny knock a guy's teeth out, literally, with a jab. Other than Ali, none of the contenders from the early to mid-1960s could have stood up to him.

[gordianot]

27. One thing none of will ever see (best we don't) was ancient Roman boxers.

They had both bare knuckles and armed boxers with metal studded gloves. These matches were to the death. One class of boxers would actually take on wild animals bare handed, Lions. The human boxer would actually win with bare handed blows. There is some debate to actually how they did it, but attests to the power of the human fist. I think we saw a modern version in boxers like Liston, Foreman, Marciano and Tyson. Ali was science and grace and power in motion, wish he would have quit while he was ahead but I understand his need to continue after he was denied boxing. Ali will always be a symbol of a great athlete and man of moral conscience.

[H2O Man]

30. Yep.

It was a brutal sport even when the modern gloves were introduced. (Of course, some people think it is brutal now. And it can be.) When you watch the old films, and see how Gene Tunney was so advanced because he could simply "stick & move," it is apparent that the sport evolved rapidly around the 1920s and '30s.

I think that when considering a fighter like Jack Johnson, one has to think of what he would be capable of in modern circumstances. He had the size and reflexes, and obviously the punching power, to have made him a tough fight against anyone his size. But your point is very important.

[Birthmark]

11. The Early Mike Tyson

Tyson was an absolute, overwhelming animal in his early career. I never saw anyone who had the combination of speed, power, accuracy, and relentlessness that Tyson had when he was being managed by Cus D'Amato. I knew he was finished when he signed with King. I had no idea how far he'd fall, though. It's real shame. He was a joy to watch in his early career.

One good thing Tyson did accomplish, though. I had hated Larry Holmes for years and years. But when Tyson KO'd Larry, Holmes conducted himself with class and dignity. It completely changed my opinion of Holmes as a person.

[H2O Man]

16. I felt Tyson was great

the night he fought Michael Spinks. Michael was a tough man, although he was small for a modern heavyweight. But he looked scared to death during the ref's instructions, and he got knocked out very cold!

I think that Cus was up there with Angelo as far as trainers go. There's a great program on ShowTime, with film of Ali talking at length with Cus. Many people do not realize that Cus gave Ali some of the tactics to use in Zaire against Foreman. This is true: Cus told Muhammad to go after George in the first 15 seconds of the first round with the right. Cus said it would un-nerve George.

I remember Cus from the Golden Gloves in Troy, NY, not far from Catskill. Cus would just sit in the locker room, and never bothered to go upstairs to watch the fights. We asked him why, and he said he could see everything he needed to by watching guys get ready to fight. He was an intense man.

[dave502d]

8. Muhammad Ali. Plus Ali lost 5 year. n/t

[autorank]

10. Ali (Ah lee, Ah lee, Ah lee)

(1) Ali -- "The Sweet Science" How can anybody that though be that charming and good looking. Freed generations to "stand up to the man."

-Liston - both fights. Not great fights but devastating to the boxing establishment and racists.
-Frazier, NYC - OK, he lost but he came back and gave a hell of a fight.
-Frazier, Manila - The last five rounds were stunning, just amazing
-Foreman, Zaire - Gave his body to win, what a price.

He was just amazing. I'm so sorry he lost those years to the draft stupidity and that he stayed around too long.

(2) Dempsey - the dude was one bad ass MOFO.
(3) Jack Johnson - a man's, man among boys. He beat everybody, had more flair than anyone in his times, and made a point to the entire world.
(4) Marciano - what a stud. Someone cussed him out when he was riding in a taxi and he just sat there calmly. The driver said 'Why don't you kick his ass.' Marciano responded 'Does Toscanini conduct for free.' How cool is that?
(5) Two Ton Tony Galento - just because.

Honorable mention: Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Vito Antuofermo. I know they're not heavy weights but their series of fights sure looked like heavy weights. What a couple of maulers!

Great thread! :hi:

[H2O Man]

13. I was lucky enough

to be ringside for the 2nd Frazier-Ali match at the Garden. Even the next day, my ears were ringing with "Ah-lee, Ah-lee, Ah-lee! It is an often overlooked match, because of the obvious excitement of the 1st and 3rd. But Ali was wonderful that night. When he danced, no one could lay a glove on him.

[tabasco]

15. Butterbean !!

I always liked Foreman, must be that dang grill.

But Ali has to be the greatest.

[H2O Man]

20. A couple more

that deserve mention are Ezzard Charles, the greatest amateur boxer ever, and Jersey Joe Walcott, the greatest "journeyman" ever. It's worth remembering that in today's terms, these are lightheavyweights and Cruiserweights. (Think of a Dempsey or Marciano at Cruiserweight!!!)

Charles was a great boxer. A true technician. There was a discussion about welterweight/middleweight Emile Griffith a few weeks ago; like Emile, Ezzard had a tragic experience in his career. He did not have the aggression afterwards that might have made him more of a crowd-pleaser. But he was so good, that he darned near beat Marciano when he was way over the hill.

Walcott was a construction worker who fought, retired out of frustration, then came back. His problem was named Joe Louis. He once said that it was hard to wait for the champ to get old, when he's younger than you. Of course, Walcott beat Louis in their first fight, but lost the decision. He was fast, strong, hit hard, and had a bag of tricks.

Both of these guys deserve an honorable mention among the very best.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

22. Joe Louis - the Brown Bomber - or maybe Ali - they were both awesome

Louis had one of the heaviest jabs in history. Opponents said it was like having a lightbulb smashed into your face. Louis had one of the best left hooks ever seen. And his right cross was downright lethal. He had extremely fast hands, great boxing skills and mobility, but was also a tremendously powerful puncher, able to knock you out with a 6 inch right cross in the inside game. In other words, he was combination boxer and puncher. His fights with Jersey Joe Walcott are legendary. His attempted comeback because of his money problems, where he got beaten by both Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano didn't feature the old Joe Louis.

Ali of course in his prime was maybe better. He probably had the hand speed of Louis and even more superior boxing skills, able to magically dodge punches by going straight back, something that's a real no-no in boxing. And he could put power into his punches while off balance or punching from odd angles. He had a very quick right hand lead and he was very tough to defend. Although he had underrated power in his right hand, I don't think Ali had quite the raw strength in his punches that the Brown Bomber had.

Both men had incredible chins.

[Stephist]

23. Well being From Omaha...

I'd have to Say Ron Stander... Oh! My bad! The question is best heavyweight champion ever, not the biggest ass kicking taken from a heavyweight champion ever. :)

In My life time Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson in that order. Yes I think Lewis takes both Holy and Tyson in their prime. I know Lenox Lewis is an arrogant ass but when he was serious he was solid and just too big and skilled for those two even at their best.

The biggest waste of talent in my life time was Buster Douglas who could have been at least a very good fighter if he so chose.

All time I say Joe Louis only because I don't know who else it could be. it's not Ali who was beatin more times then his record shows. I mean he lost three times to Ken Norton and who else did Ken Norton beat?

One thing to keep in mind a lot of great fighters never got a shot at the title becuase for years white fighters wouldn't fight black fighters and neither for that matter would Jack Johnson once he got the title. After Johnson the next black heavyweight champion was Joe Louis so the greatest heavyweight of all time might be somebody who never got a shot at the belt.

[H2O Man]

28. Lewis was very good,

but he suffered two knockouts that are hard to see happening to any of the top champions.

Kenny Norton didn't have the ability to take the punches from guys like Foreman and Shavers. His fights with Ali were all close, but that was simply because styles make fights. Eddie Futch studied one of Ali's "forgotten" fights from shortly before his winning the title. A tough contender, Doug Jones, took him to a close decision at the Garden. The decision was loudly booed, and people threw peanuts at the then Cassius Clay .... and he ate a few of them ! But Jones knew how to neutralize Ali's jab, by a funny crouch to the right. It looks like a cross between Archie Moore and a crab. Futch showed it to Kenny, and the rest is history.

[Awsi Dooger]

24. I automatically disqualify the little guys

In this case that means Marciano and Tyson. Don't kid yourself, Tyson is a midget. I've lived in Las Vegas since the '80s and seen all the recent heavyweight greats in person, albeit years after their reign for the most part. They are mountainous men. Tyson is a shrimp. The first time I saw him live was '88 at the Sands. It was beyond belief. An elderly English couple was standing beside me. The husband said, "Why lookee there, it's Mike Tyson!" The wife immediately said what I was thinking, "Why, he can't be more than 5 feet tall."

It took five times before someone I knew was there when I saw Tyson in person. No one would believe me when I emphasized how short he was. This, after all, was the most feared animal on the planet. Finally my friend Tommy was there when we ran into Tyson, again at the Sands. He agreed with me. "5-7 tops," Tommy said. "Absolute tops."

I place Ali first, based on the pre-exile Ali alone. Just surreal athletic ability and the combo of feet and piston jab would be the trump cards in any era. The second career can almost be judged as a seperate guy, IMO. Except that he demonstrated the smarts and chin some had doubted in his earlier years. Still, the first fight with Frazier was somewhat dumb. He took that fight too soon, IMO. Then he stayed on the ropes too often and really took a beating in a couple of rounds. They always show the highlight left hook flash knockdown in the 15th but that was hardly Frazier's finest moment. He savaged Ali against the ropes in a couple of rounds. One was the 9th, I think.

The fight I'd love to see would be young Ali vs. young Foreman. Yeah, Ali outfoxed Foreman in Zaire but I wan't to see how a young Ali would have fared while boxing Foreman. At that point Foreman was the most devastating fighter I've ever seen. I'm not old enough to remember Liston. Foreman treated Frazier and Norton like glorified punching bags. I'm convinced Foreman would have obliterated a young puny Tyson. If he could punch low enough, that is.

Louis looks terrific on film but it's hard for me to forgive a one-sided loss in his prime like vs. Schmeling. I generally don't feel comfortable making absolute judgements about athletes who I didn't see in their era. Relying on selected tapes and questionable historians is not for me. Same with Jack Johnson, who looks like a freak but I'm not sure about his opposition or how he would fare vs. a similar athlete. Louis obviously had a great jab but as someone else said, so did Holmes. I saw him knock down very good fighters with a jab. Holmes was a late bloomer who didn't become champ until 28 or 29 despite being undefeated. Generally, I don't think he gets the credit he deserves. Holmes is much naturally bigger than Holfyield. I shook both their hands one after another at Caesar's Palace years ago and the difference in shoulder breadth was remarkable.

[H2O Man]

29. The reason Mike Tyson

would never fight George, even after being offered more than the high price he demanded, was because he knows that styles make fights. George would knock Tyson out more easily than he did Frazier. And it is safe to say Liston would have done about the same to both Frazier and Tyson.

Both Joe and Mike are short for heavyweights, but they were big weight-wise. The pre-Liston heavyweights tended to be around 200 lbs at their best. Dempsey and Marciano were at their best at 185-187 lbs. In fairness to them, it is not fair to consider them in terms of the huge men of modern times.

Rather, I like to think of Marciano and Patterson against Roy Jones, Jr. and that size man.

[H2O Man]

26. Louis was an intense fighter.

I think his early loss to Schmeling improved him. Not simply by teaching him to bring the left hand back up to his chin after throwing the jab .... but by teaching him that every time he got into the ring prepared to kick another man's behind, he had his right there, too.

Joe's career was so long, that the later loses simply do not count in any fair assessment of his skills. Pre-war Louis really only had one off-night, and that was against the remarkable lightheavyweight, Billy Conn. Had Conn been content to take a decision, he would have won the fight .... but, as he said in the locker room afterwards, "It's a curse to be Irish!" That fight leads some to believe that Ali could have outboxed Louis. Of course, even late in a fight, Joe could flatten any man with one punch. His delivery is simply the best of all the best knock-out punchers.

[gordianot]

32. Ali and Frazier the Thriller in Maniller greatest of all time.

2. Ali vs Liston. Something connected, Ali had power and speed
3. George Foreman vs Joe Frazier Hardest punch of all time. It also attests to the strength of Joe Frazier to have survived
4. Joe Louis and Max Schmeling (both fights) Both men had great class. Schmeling was a life long friend of Joe. In addition Schmeling continued his friendship in the face of Nazi pressure.
5. Dempsey and Tunny a classic fight.
6. Gentleman Jim who invented modern scientific boxing making Ali a possibility.

I know this somewhat begs the question, but it takes two to have a good fight. Boxing is/was an honest reflection of human struggle when it was not all show business. That is the male barbarian in me coming to the surface. Alas I am afraid that modern boxing will go the way of Roman boxing. Honesty is a rare commodity these days in Sports as we see in other human endeavors. WWF and free for alls have taken their place, I despise both.

[ThorsHammer]

35. I think you have to break it up by eras

Sullivan in the early years, then Johnson/Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Tyson for a short time, and no one. By no one, I mean that there is no one amnong the recent champs who is in the caliber of the prior champs. Tyson could have been this man, but we'll never know. Lennox Lewis had the physiscal tools, but just never seemed to dominate people like he should have. I'd lean toward Ali/Marciano as the all-time best, but it's very hard to compare across different time frames.

[H2O Man]

36. Sure. It's a subjective thing.

And you are absolutely correct about breaking it into eras.

I think that Ali was the man most likely to beat every other fighter, when he was at his best. But I certainly respect anyone else's opinion. A strong case can be made for a Dempsey, a Louis, or a Marciano taking anyone else on their best night.

Lewis is perhaps an exception, because he was at the top of his career when a couple fellows laid him out. One does not imagine Joe Frazier losing to the level of fighter that starched Lewis.

Mike Tyson is a great unknown. In his prime, he had difficulty with tall guys like Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch "Blood" Green. And Holyfield exposed his weakness when he was pushed backwards. At the same time, under Cus he had a hell of a delivery of very hard punches. Anyone he hit would have been in trouble.

[ThorsHammer]

37. Agreed, if I had to choose just one it would be Ali

Ali at his best combined (unprecedented) movement, power, and speed. I wonder how much better he could have been without the Vietnam mess. I'm not as familiar with Marciano, but more knowledgable people than me feel that he is the one guy who was as good during his time. I still think Tyson could have been a stud if Cus hadn't died. Cus managed to harness his raw power and also kept him under control. I don't really like any of the current guys, and am very glad to see Ruiz lose his title.

[MrSlayer]

38. Marciano

Undefeated.

[Yupster]

40. Agree Mr Slayer

I don't think you can fairly compare athletes between eras.

I think most modern athletes would wipe the floor with older ones. The conditioning and diet and science is so much better today.

So I think the only fair way to compare is how players did against their peer group.

If Marciano retired undefeated, that's good enough for me.

Not to say he would have beaten modern fighters, he may not have, but to me being undefeated against his peers makes him the best.

[H2O Man]

42. Marciano was the very best

of his time. He would be competitive, annd likely beat, anyone his size from any era.

One of the "great myths" of boxing is that Rocky was undefeated. On the same day that Max Schmeling died last year, another lesser known heavyweight, Coley Wallace, died. Coley had been called "the next Joe Louis," though his pro career never fulfilled the early expectations.

There are photographs of Coley Wallace fighting Marciano. Wallace won a decision. The date of this fight was about a year after Rocky turned pro. That fight, and three others, were "removed" from the Rock's record early on by his manager. In another of the disappearing fights, Rocky was behind, and began fouling his foe. After being disqualified, Marciano told his brother Peter that he wasn't "going to let that guy beat me."

By the time he was at the top, none of those guys could have gone thirty seconds with him. I think that he was one of the most interesting athletes of any sport, any era. He simply refused to accept defeat, even when the great Ezzard Charles split his nose. And Marciano never entered the ring in less than perfect condition.

(The other interesting myth is that Jack Johnson was the first black heavyweight champion. He actually was second; the first black man held the title for less than one afternoon. I'd be curious if others know this story.)

[mark414]

39. Jack Johnson

loud, brash, and completely unapologetic

he paved the way for Ali, who would be my number 2

[H2O Man]

41. I didn't see the recent

"made for tv" movie on this fascinating and controversial man. And he certainly paved the way for Ali, and a number of lesser-known boxers including Rubin Carter. His physical talents are clear -- he is one of the most gifted men in terms of size, speed, and strength. He was also smart in terms of ring generalship, for his day. And he had attitude; one of my favorite Johnson quotes is, "I'm black, and they won't let me forget it; I'm black, and I won't let them forget it." It took a heck of a lot of self-confidence to do the things that man did.

[ProfessorGAC]

43. Ali, Marciano, Louis

Those three, and maybe Jack Johnson. Everyone else is on tier 2.
The Professor

[H2O Man]

44. Good choices.

These three seem to have the respect of the vast majority of boxing fans.

[ProfessorGAC]

45. I'd Be Loathe To Pick Just One

Too chicken. The styles are so drastically different, and the body size and type, over these eras, is so different it's AWFULLY HARD to see the individual match-ups. So, i'll punt and stay with one of the three, and not attempt to pare it down to one!
The Professor

[Stephist]

46. I think the Super Heavyweight

Is killing the division. You just can not be as skilled and athletic at 6'8" 260 as you can at 6'2" 215. These guys now are big, lumbering and awkward. they look like a flock of Primo Carneras, and the smaller guy's today like byrd and Ruiz are cures for insomnia. there was a time when Light heavyweights couldn't beat a heavyweight chamion, Archie Moore was a great fighter but couldn't ever beat a heavyweight champion, Bob Foster great fighter could never beat a heavyweight champion. Now Middleweights are doing it and thats pretty sad. The heavy's suck right now.

[H2O Man]

47. Moore and Foster

were surely two of the greatest lightheavyweights ever. In Moore's day, the average heavyweight was a little smaller than in Bob's. (Archie fought so darned long he actually covered a couple eras!) Foster even lost to heavyweight contenders like Ernie Terrel. But, to illustrate your point, when Foster fought one of the best middleweight champions who became lightheavyweight champion, the great Dick Tiger, he flattened him.

The heavyweight division looks to be good in 18 to 24 months. It really looks weak, in my opinion, because of the era of Ali, Frazier, and Foreman, with the second level of Norton, Quarry, Shavers, etc. None of the current crop make the second tier of 1975.

[Lauri16]

48. Like ThorsHammer said

you really can't compare boxers of different eras. The way that you broke it down, is great, though. Each man made boxing better with each passing era.

To me, boxing is the one sport that you really can't pick one all time great. Football has Jim Brown, Baseball has Ted Williams & Hank Aaron (along with Babe Ruth & Joe D.), Hockey has Wayne Gretzky. Boxing is something that each "great" built on.

My Grandmother is the one that got me hooked on boxing. Her favorites were Jack Dempsey & Joe Louis. If I had to pick, i'd go with them along with Mohammed Ali.

[H2O Man]

49. Well, yes. In fact,

you can often tell more about the person who holds or expresses the opinion on this question, than you can about the fighters themselves. That makes it fun. Also, there is a pool of people with serious opinions & insight on the strangely attractive sport of boxing.

One day a few years ago, at a family picnic, my brother and I were debating some of the younger generation. It was when Tyson was still Iron Mike, and the younger guys felt he was the "best ever." Well, of course my brother and I insisted Ali would have spanked Tyson.

At the end of the day, long after the conversation ended, my brother looked at me and said, "You know, even if there ever is someone better, I'll never be able to admit it to myself." Ha! Now there was an echo from my late father, who insisted Joe Louis could have taken Ali easily; or his father, who was convinced no man could stand up to Jack Dempsey in his prime. The difficulty in judging fighters from different eras is not limited to their being a product of their generation: we are, too!