Striking Out

[wilt the stilt]

To all those talk about posters who posted about OBP in relation to mark McGwire. Striking out does matter. Striking out means you didn't put the ball into play and there is no recourse. When the ball is in play you never know what can happen. I do know if you strike out nothing happens. Ryan Howard was horrible.

[DinahMoeHum]

1. Whether he did steroids or not, Mark McGwire wasn't Hall-of-Fame material.

His stats just weren't that impressive enough.

[DaveinMD]

2. strikeouts

also just result in one out. You put the ball in play, you also hit into double plays.

Do you want Reggie Jackson or Ozzie Guillen. The first struck out a ton more than the other.

[PVnRT]

3. He also hit 30+ HR and drove in 90+ runs reliably

I'll take the guy cashing in runners on base and putting runs on the scoreboard.

Oddly enough, their career batting averages are only 2 points apart (0.262 for Jackson, 0.264 for Guillen).

[DaveinMD]

4. yet more evidence

that batting average is the most overrated stat in baseball.

[PVnRT]

6. ?

You argued that striking out is only one out, as opposed to a possible double play, then brought up (and seemingly insinuated) that having Guillen is better than Jackson because of strikeouts. Jackson is the better player based on just about any measure, and hit just as well as Guillen, but somehow that means batting average is a useless stat?

Then again, you're the same guy who thinks that quarterback rating is useless too, so never mind.

[DaveinMD]

7. please go read a baseball prospectus or Bill James Abstract

Batting average doesn't tell you anything about production. It doesn't tell you how many outs per plate appearance you are making. It doesn't tell you how many bases you are getting. OBP is a much more valuable stat. The longer it takes to create outs, the more runs you will score.

Robbie Cano hit 320 this year, but barely had a 350 obp. Teixeira hit about 280 and had nearly a 400 opb. The 280 hitter is better than the 320 hitter. Batting average is way overrated.

[wilt the stilt]

8. I'll take Pete Rose over Reggie jackson

anyday

[DaveinMD]

11. not a chance

Rose was a singles hitter and did little else. Reggie was a difference maker. Teams weren't afraid to pitch to Rose. They were terrified of Reggie.

[wilt the stilt]

13. you are freakin nuts

Rose was a great player and defined baseball. Reggie was good but I still would take Rose. Played and was an all star at 5 positions. you are like a lot of people. you put little value on single hitters. They set the table. As far as power hitters I would take Aaron or Mays any day of the week. Better hitters, more power and way better fielders. Reggie was a terrible fielder

[DaveinMD]

14. of course

you take Aaron and Mays over Reggie. But any HOF power hitter is superior to Rose. He only had a 375 obp even with all those hits.

[wilt the stilt]

15. Rose history

Pete Rose was a tremendously successful player. An entire article could be spent summarizing his achievements – all time hit leader, three time batting champ, 1963 NL Rookie of the Year, 1973 NL MVP, 17-time All-Star, two Gold Gloves, a member of three World Series champions

Jackson and Rose both had 1 MVP. Can you imagine a "singles hitter" won a MVP. What does that say about his impact plus he had more all star games and was a better fielder- 2 gold gloves. How many gold gloves did Jackson win? He may have led in total errors for an outfielder

[DaveinMD]

18. mvp's

are voting on by writers and they often make horrendous decisions. So that criteria tells me nothing. Reggie was on more championship teams. Batting titles don't do anything for me as batting average just tells me very little about a player. In his younger days, Reggie was a decent defender. Certainly faded as he got older. They weren't many better clutch performers. And he certainly created more runs for his team than Rose ever did. Rose wasn't even a top 3 player on most of the teams he played for. Guys certainly feared pitching to Morgan, Foster, Bench and Perez much more.

[wilt the stilt]

16. did you see him play? n/t

[DaveinMD]

17. yes n/m

[wilt the stilt]

19. then you should know

how great he was. I just talked to two friends who were very good players(college players) and they think it's a tough choice btu they both took Rose. One of these guys I was talking to was also invited to the NFL combine the other threw 90 mph. Good athletes. Rose defined baseball. I also know a guy who was in the KC farm system and was roommates with Willie Wilson. That is a question I would like to ask him. He had funny stories about Wilson. Another friend was twice drafted by the majors and decided not to go out. His son is a star pitcher at Appalachain State and throws 94 mph. I wonder how they would vote.

[DaveinMD]

20. he's a hall of fame player

not saying he isn't. I'll always take the power hitting run producer over the table setter.

[wilt the stilt]

21. that is a choice

but Rose was no ordinary table setter. He was different. also here's a shock Reggie had 1702 RBI's Rose had 1334 RBI's. Quite a few for a table setter.

[DaveinMD]

22. Rose

also played a longer time to pad his stats.

[wilt the stilt]

23. he was still pretty productive up till the end

Reggie batted .220 in 1984 and still played 4 more seasons including .223 in 1987 with 43 RBI's. Rose batted .264 the next to last year with 44 RBI's who padded their stats? Plus Rose as chasing Ty Cobb's record

[wilt the stilt]

24. oh! I forgot

Reggie batted .194 in 1983. Joe Dimaggio quit because he felt he could no longer be Joe Dimaggio. I guess Reggie couldn't see it that way.
Dimaggio's possibly greatest records 361 HR's and 369 SO's. The only power hitter with a 1:1 ratio

[wilt the stilt]

9. if you are a Bill James believer that is true

There are probably some players that had higher OBP than Pete Rose but give me Rose any day. He was one of the finest players I have ever seen play. He wasn't fast but he was a great base runner. He was an Okay fielder but he would knock down a ball with his chest to get the guy out.

Here's one for you. Wade Boggs had better stats and I'm sure a better OBP than Rose. Who would you rather have on your team.

[madinmaryland]

10. I would take Rose also, but only if I was betting on his team!

:hide:

[TK421]

12. Oh no you didn't!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[PVnRT]

5. You're right, nothing happens

Putting the ball in play, especially with runners in scoring position, is preferable every time to a strikeout.

Besides, the only thing that matters about McGwire becoming a coach is how well he can coach hitters. His career numbers mean jack shit. Look at the coaches of this year's best hitting teams (by OPS):

Colorado - Don Baylor (.260 BA, .777 BA)
Philadelphia - Milt Thompson (.274 BA, .708 OPS)
Milwaukee - Dale Sveum (.236 BA, .676 OPS)
Los Angeles - Don Mattingly (.307 BA, .830 OPS)
Florida - Jim Presley (.247 BA, .710 OPS)
NY Yankees - Kevin Long (did not play in the majors)
Boston - Dave Magadan (.288 BA, .767 OPS)
Angels - Mickey Hatcher (.280 BA, .690 OPS)
Tampa Bay - Steve Henderson (.280 BA, .765 OPS)
Minnesota - Joe Vavra (did not play in the majors)

Mark McGwire (.263 BA, .982 OPS)

The coaches' numbers range from two never-weres to a Hall-of-Famer. Debating about whether or not McGwire will be a good hitting coach based on his playing career is simply nonsense.