rapture?

[historian]

As an avowed atheist i find this belief somewhat beyong the scope of any rational thought. Is that mentioned in the bible or is it some new invention?

[Warpy]

1. It's blasphemy

which first appeared sometime in the late nineteenth century, the reasult of a bizarre interpretation of Revelations. Serious theologians discount it completely.

It's purely a silly folk religion now, fueled by La Haye and Jenkins and their series of poorly written novels.

There is no basis for it in the bible. It's pure fiction.

[historian]

2. thanks

So its really nothing more than something for the weak kneed to hold onto?

[Warpy]

5. It's not the first BS religious hysteria to take hold

among the ignorant and desperate and it won't be the last. The end of the world gets predicted in some form every century mark and goes completely loony when the millennium rolls over.

It all should be hitting rapid deceleration pretty soon as the rapture addled grow old and die still stuck here, no matter what shape they've gotten this country into.

[The Straight Story]

20. I see it acclerating really, and 2000 was not the big mark to many

2012 maybe for the mayan type folks is big though :)

Christians fall into several camps, one of which is a later time frame. For those who don't pick dates (and there are many) it all falls on how advanced we become - the more we are able to control lives via technology the close it gets.

The PRESS is the one who eats up more timelines than anyone. christians I have known over the years were not tied to our calendar (though they were somewhat to the jewish one). It was about when things were able to happen and looking for signs of that versus actual dates to rally around.

And hell, they may damn well be right about some of it - just think about DU and how often we reference '1984' in a prophetic manner. That date came and went, but we still understand the danger as being real today.

[The Straight Story]

17. It is not just from Revelation

It hails from the first book to the last based on lifting principles of operation (if you will) relating to circumstances (the same reason, sadly, the fundies think they need to control the government, they really don't get the whole split between OT and NT there...).

Lot, Noah, Moses - the righteous were not subjected to the punishments of god, he led them away from it all. In the end times it will be worldwide, so it follows that if god is the same then as now god will lead us away from his wrath which will encompass the whole world.

[evlbstrd]

3. One fiction interpreted from another.

Too bad so many believe it.;

[Erika]

4. I hate to make a post only to see the thread has been

moved and my post lost.

Christians waffle on this issue. Some believe rapture was added a few centuries ago to the Bible without reason.

The fundies certainly believe in it. I find it amusing that the Bible says only 144,000 will be gathered into the clouds during the rapture. Maybe it will be the atheists. We hold ourselves accountable and don't depend on confessions or a Savior to relieve our guilt.

[The Straight Story]

19. Waffling is not a bad thing, in fact I am glad they/we waffle (like we do here)

Consider the constitution and other founding documents, how is it that we can all so readily interpret them so differently? Take the second amendment as an example, or even the first with how it is really limited (yelling fire in a theatre, etc).

We all see the same thing in a light we want to see it in.

[Dorian Gray]

6. As a Roman Catholic,

it seems a little weird to me, as well. I guess it comes from a literal reading of Revelations.

[neoblues]

7. Seriously accepted nonsense.

It's a rather large stretch to pull this interpretation out of the Bible; larger than any rational mind should go, but it really is taught in many churches--and accepted by huge numbers of unquestioning Christians.

It's pretty interesting how pervasive this notion is out there in the 'heartland'. Joe Bageant has a relevant article What the 'Left Behind' Series Really Means.

[Erika]

15. I have done Bible studies

It clearly states orly 144,000 will be raptured. No ifs, and or, buts.

Do the Right wingers ever,,,ever,,ever,,address these issues as they are talking about how Christian they are. The answer: NEVER. (They didn't believe anyone actually took Christianity seriously)

Good luck to you as you talk to St. Peter. I can see the GOP saying "well, we would have helped him if he'd worked 12 hours a day. He only worked 10 hours a day, so he and his family went hungry. He should have worked harder."

Knowing W and his family have never worked a day in their lives. Have fun talking to your St. Peter.

[The Straight Story]

18. Those 144,000 were something different imho

Those folks related to a deeper promise from the OT and jews, and were not related to the NT and gentile christians.

[The Straight Story]

16. I think modern day christians are mixing some things a bit much really

but one can understand why if one looks deep enough.

Believers were persecuted and tested throughout the bible, yet on the same token believers were also delivered from god's wrath (see lot and noah as two examples).

Are we refined through the trials and tribulations (ie the fire) or are refined through christ, or both? The idea here is that those who have given their lives to god will not have to endure his wrath come the end times, so there are only two ways that can be avoided - a mass killing of believers or an 'exodus' engineered by god to the 'promised' land via the rapture.

I have no idea what god has planned, I just take it one day at a time :)

[neoblues]

21. Well, it would seem a tad unfair...

to leave millions of Christians to face such unpleasant (understatement is either a skill or a bad habit) circumstances. Not that some generations of Christians in history haven't faced some difficult times, but the Tribulations promises to be rather, umm... bad. Of course, a "Rapture" would be a trivial exercise for an all powerful God; so much so, one almost wonders why He would go to so much tedious, flashy effort, but God moves in mysterious ways and, of course, we're not in a position to question the choices of this or any other God.

Still, if a "Rapture" happens pre-Tribulation it'd be kind of unfair to the billions of people who've died to go on to eternal suffering in a lake of fire or destruction or whatever--when if they'd had some evidence as spectacular as a Rapture (or perhaps the Tribulations), they might well have made a different choice. No doubt there would be many more conversions with such proof of the Bible than would otherwise occur; unless the world operates irrationally (which isn't inconceivable, I suppose). As for being "fair", nobody ever said life was fair (and I'm not familiar with the scripture that states God is fair; but one might presume a perfect God to be fair, I suppose)...

With or without Christianity, if we don't change course soon, we'll be facing a kind of natural tribulations that might make the Book of Revelations seem positively mild and of short duration. Global warming has the potential to end most or maybe even all life on Earth, possibly permanently--leaving a planet we would scarcely even recognize. If so, we'd be needing a hands-on God to re-make the place if it's to be used again. It seems like it would be a waste of a potentially nice planet and would a God of Humans be wasteful? (clearly I'm conflating imaginary notions of what a perfect God would be like when no one is in a position to know). So, nevermind and be of good cheer...

[The Straight Story]

8. It has roots in the bible in several areas really (all the way back to genesis)

One of which goes back to Lot and Noah as well.

The idea being that before god destroys someplace wicked he gets the righteous out of harms way. Since the end times are to afflict the whole globe then god must have a plan to get us out of harms way, which is alluded to in the NT with a variety of citations; two in the field, one will be taken -- though some see this in the opposite light and taken means killed off, so one person will survive, the righteous one, and the other will perish. Also changed in the twinkling of an eye, etc and so on.

There is an interesting twist to all of this: as science and our knowledge in general of things progress we are better able to understand things, including the bible. So the rapture might be a recent 'invention' but is not wholly new. More to the point, we are better able to understand how the bible fits with end times now then folks back then because we have more knowledge and can see how more things are applicable.

In relation to said end times I do remember reading religious works from the 1800's (which I used to collect) which mentioned the end time would not come until Israel was once again a nation, yet others felt this never possible so they stoked the fires by saying the bible was really referring to a 'spiritual' nation so the end was still near. Obviously they lacked faith that god would indeed bring them back to their homeland :)

[Erika]

10. Respectfully, it's like Corn Flakes poured into a bowl

and there's supposed to be some spiritual revelation from their placement.

[The Straight Story]

13. Hell, that may be so to hear stephen hawking talk of late :)

But I digress....

To me the idea is using a source for your study of a topic, ie the bible in this case, and making that the core of your theological endeavors (followed up with some arabic, greek, history, etc).

You come to expect certain behaviors from the principle player (god here) based on actions and examine what-if's using that as your core guide.

So you believe it is fiction, and that is fine - but that still does not mean as a fictional work one cannot extrapolate from it things relating to it (one may well do the same with sherlock holmes/conan doyles works - you decide to write a new novel based on said works so you extract from previous works and project how the author would write another such work).

If YOU were to study the bible in depth and were then asked to make a case for X (or rapture in this case) I think you are probably intelligent enough to do so, and hence see why people who don't see it as fiction might come to the same conclusion.

[valerief]

9. I always found the 3 gods in one a bit hard to swallow. But then,

Snap, Crackle, and Pop make up one Rice Krispie, so…

[Erika]

11. The little guy with the white chef's hat was so cute n/t

[valerief]

12. The Holy Spirit or Crackle? nt

[The Straight Story]

14. It actually makes sense to me in a lot of ways

like the three branches of one government.

[valerief]

22. Hate to break this to you, but we only have one branch now--

the Dictator Branch.

[trotsky]

24. But why 3?

Why not 2, since humans tend to bond in pairs?

Why not 4, mirroring a small family?

Is "3 gods in one" a rule that God has to follow, or did he invent it? Did he think he could operate more effectively by creating two other parts of himself and delegating some duties? He's got infinite abilities, though, so why would he have to delegate?

The more you dwell on it, the less sense it makes. But according to some theologians, that's just all the more proof that it's some amazing cosmic TRUTH (tm).

[Dorian Gray]

25. Technically

He's not 3 Gods in One, but rather, there are 3 aspects to His being. They are all united as one God, not separate in being.

Oh, hell... it's complicated. It was explained to me that Ice, Water, and Vapor are all forms that H2O will take under different circumstances. They are the same thing.

But, it's a complicated topic, and I know that the idea of the Trinity is "pooh poohed" by non-Christians as being overly complicated. Many a theologian has tackled the idea to varying degrees that there is not one "Christian" answer to the Trinity. Rather, various different sects may have their own interpretation.

[trotsky]

26. Actually, it's "pooh poohed" by many Christians as well.

Lots of fighting when it was first "invented," and to this day lots of Christians don't buy into it.

So your god is like water? Does he have a chemical composition? Can you describe the exact conditions under which your god will take one of the 3 forms, like we can do very precisely with water?

[Finder]

23. It is the human need to feel special or chosen. n/t

[TheBaldyMan]

27. a 19th century invention derived from ...

extemely selective editing of scripture.

A long winded equivalent of 'an eye for an eye', IOW erroneous justification that is actually at odds with scripture.

[thingfisher]

28. The rapture

has been popularized as a phenomenon which will remove Christians from the world prior to the terrible judgements scheduked to overtake the earth during the reign of the anti-christ.

This is an interpretation of some theologians. Many Christians believe that the sudden translation of believers from earthly to glorified bodies is merely (merely?) a phenomenon related to the general resurrection of the dead which according to Revelation occurs at the point that Jesus returns to earth at the winding down of Armegeddon.

As a Christian I can sympathize with those who find such doctines beyond the scope of any rational thought. I often suffer from the same feelings, especially when reading and studying the "end times". I do take some comfort in the fact that a lot of what physicists are telling us about the physical world also seems beyond the realm of rational thought! I get vertigo when they start in on worm holes, multi-verses, etc. Science fiction fans must love living in our brave new world.