What do you know of Constantine and his influence on the commission of the

[hang a left]

bible. I had to pick up a book that I really did not want to start with. I wanted to start with "The Secret History of the Bible" but B and N's computer cancelled my order because of some problem with getting the book from the publisher. I know I am paranoid by nature but, I just got the feeling that the subject matter was being censored. After receiving this info from the store I went down there and scoured the shelfs looking for something that would suffice on the subject. I ended up buying Constantines's Sword by James Carroll. It really wasn't the place I wanted to start but hey there is still Amazon and I will probably order it from them.

Don't ask me why but I have a need to understand and come froma position of being informed on the topic of the commission of the writing of the bible and the influences that were present. Why, because I have this compelling need to know the truth. I HAVE TO KNOW! In my quest for some type of spirituality that I am comfortable with and have a deep conviction of I first have to know how, why, when, where, what were the influences, what was suppressed, edited, destroyed ect. I think I would feel enlightened to begin my search with a foundation in history.

Did they rip me on the book. 20 bucks I spent.

[evlbstrd]

1. Here's a link to what was left out.

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/naghamm/nhlcodex.html

[hang a left]

2. Thanks for your response and I get that.

And I want to study the gnostic gospels and other writings. For me at this point of my research I have this compelling NEED to understand how and why we have the basis for the Bible text we have today.

Understand that I am just beginning my search. I would like to start with some form of historical context. And them move forward into the "banned books". I just need to understand the motives, it is important to me and for me I need to start at the beginning.

You know, I have been force fed bs on everything ever taught to me. Truths that I held. I am not coming from a positions of educating myself versus having others "educate" me. I need to find my own truth that is reinforcec from history. That is where I have chosen to start. But I cannot possibly come to a place of comfort and truth with out looking for myself. I refuse to have others tell me what to think, what to beleive, and how to act. I now in this stage of my life choose to dig out the truths.

Thanks for responding

[evlbstrd]

3. In that case,

Google "Constantine" and "Bible." You'll get a wealth of links.
The Gnostic Gospels, of course, predate Constantine. They were purged and hidden long before Constantine, so, I would suggest that you go back further than the official founding of the first Catholic Empire. The origins of the Bible we have now go back much further.

[hang a left]

8. Where do I start?

[evlbstrd]

9. Did you not Google?

I thought you were curious. Click links and read. Here's one that goes beyond Constantine:
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

[hang a left]

10. Yes I did google,

but you mentioned that I would have to go back to a time before that and I was wondering when?

[evlbstrd]

11. Oh, come on.

I even provided a link. Want me to read it to you?

[kwassa]

12. Here you go

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/canon.html

Development of the New Testament Canon

C. AD 51-125:
The New Testament books are written, but during this same period other early Christian writings are produced--for example, the Didache (c. AD 70), 1 Clement (c. 96), the Epistle of Barnabas (c. 100), and the 7 letters of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110).

C. AD 140:
Marcion, a businessman in Rome, teaches that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the OT, and Abba, the kind father of the NT. So Marcion eliminates the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he is anti-Semitic, keeps from the NT only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke's gospel (he deletes references to Jesus' Jewishness). Marcion's "New Testament"--the first to be compiled--forces the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four gospels and letters of Paul.

C. AD 200:
But the periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.

AD 367:
The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Easter letter of 367.

AD 904:
Pope Damasus, in a letter to a French bishop, lists the New Testament books in their present number and order.

AD 1442:
At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognizes the 27 books, though does not declare them unalterable.

AD 1536:
In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removes 4 NT books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations) from their normal order and places them at the end, stating that they are less than canonical.

AD 1546:
At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirms once and for all the full list of 27 books as traditionally accepted.

[Hissyspit]

4. This is not exactly what you are looking for, but I think it is very

interesting:

GOD AGAINST THE GODS

The Imperial Faith

Tim Callahan

A review of God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism
and Polytheism, by Jonathan Kirsch, 2004, 336 pp. New York: Penguin. $25.95.

While the course of history at most times seems dictated by impersonal forces
beyond the control of individual human beings, there are pivotal points at
which individuals can step in and alter the path of nations and even empires.
There are also points at which the direction a nation takes seems to be the
result of sheer happenstance.

As an example of the first consider whether Russia, a backward country whose
only port, Archangel, lay north of the Arctic circle and was thus frozen over
half the year, would have become a sea power and a major player in European
politics at the beginning of the 18th century had it not been for the energetic
and ruthless rule of Czar Peter the Great. As an example of happenstance,
consider that William the Conqueror was unhorsed three times at the Battle of
Hastings in 1066. Since his presence alone held the mixed Norman, French and
Breton cavalry together--a cavalry that initially fled in terror when its first
charge broke on the Anglo-Saxon phalanx--it seems likely that, if William had
broken his neck in one of his falls, the invaders would have been routed. Had that
happened we would now be speaking something midway between the Scandinavian
languages and German. Also, there would have been no entanglement of the English
monarchy with French possessions, hence no Hundred Years War. It is Jonathan
Kirsch's thesis in God Against the Gods that a combination of the individual
personal choices of two emperors of the Roman Empire in the fourth century, and
the chance death in battle of one of them, may well have determined the
ascendancy of Christianity over such rivals as Mithraism, and with this ascendancy
the course of thought in western Europe for centuries following the demise of
the Western Roman Empire in CE 476.

The two emperors in question are Constantine the Great (271-337) and Julian,
who was called "the Apostate" (331-363), an epithet stemming from his
rejection of Christianity in favor of an urbane form of paganism. Constantine came to
power as a result of a civil war between rival claimants for the throne. The
Emperor Diocletian (245-313), seeing the empire as being ungovernable by a
single man, had set up a tetrarchy. Dividing the empire east and west, he had
given each half a supreme emperor, called an Augustus, and a vice emperor, called
a Caesar. Diocletian was the senior Augustus, first among equals in the
tetrarchy. His idea was that as the senior Augustus retired or died his Caesar
would also step down. The junior Augustus would now become the senior, and anew
junior Augustus and junior Caesar would be appointed, ready to move into the
senior positions when the time came. Thus, Diocletian sought to establish an
orderly system of succession that would avoid the sordid, disruptive civil wars
that periodically broke out over succession and plunged the empire into
repeated episodes of anarchy.

Diocletian did step down in 305, and the appointed rotation took place.
However, in the ensuing years civil war broke out between the various successors,
finally culminating in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, just outside the city
of Rome, in 312. In that battle Constantine's chief rival, Maxentius, was
defeated and killed. Supposedly, Constantine had a vision and either saw a sign in
the sky before battle (a flaming cross), or had a dream in which he saw the
Greek letter chi (ch) superimposed on a rho (r). Since these are the first two
letters in the word Christos, the chi-rho is a symbol of Christ. Either he was
told by Jesus in his dream, "By this sign you shall be the victor," or he
saw in flaming letters under the cross in the sky the words "In hoc signo vince,"
"In this sign conquer." From what we know of Constantine's supremely
pragmatist nature, it seems unlikely that his decision to have either the cross or the
chi-rho inscribed on his men's shields before going into battle had anything
to do with a vision. More than likely he decided to back the strongest
contender when looking for a religion to support his imperial claims. For all that,
he put off converting to Christianity until he was on his deathbed.

I AM PM'ING YOU THE REST OF THE ARTICLE/REVIEW (Anyone else wants it, PM me and I will send it to you, too. You might try googling it, as well. I don't have a link.)

[flyingfysh]

5. read "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman

It is a very good account of the very early centuries, by a respected scholar.

[Sam1]

7. Misquoting Jesus by Ehrman is also a very

good account of the process that resulted in the bible that we have today. It does a very good job of explaining the textual differences in the different early manuscripts and the business of reconciling the difference.

[Finder]

6. I suggest you start with the Catholic history material...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm


and take notes. Then start researching the secular information on said people, places. There are some contemporary writings from that era.

Here are a couple of sites with info on the council of Nicea.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/nicea.htm

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

[Dorian Gray]

13. An interesting journey that you are embarking on.

I hope you find a wealth of information that will teach you the truth, and I hope that you will share that information with us, as well!

Lots of patience will be needed in your quest.

[bloom]

14. I suggest Adam, Eve, and the Serpent by Pagels

Pagels - a Princeton Professor of Religion was on a mission similar to yours. She wanted to know what Christianity was like before "the authorities" molded it into what they wanted it to be.

She writes from a Christian perspective - but it's still interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Pagels

From Library Journal
Pagels explores the development of the ideas of human nature, moral freedom, and sexuality in the four centuries following Christ. Focusing on the various interpretations of the Genesis creation stories, she concludes that early Christians regarded their message to be one of moral freedom and human worth. In the 5th century, Augustine turned the tide with his view of human depravity and original sin (which he linked with sexuality). She argues that his interpretations, implying human incapacity for true political freedom, appealed to the interests of the emerging Christian state and forged the mainstream of ensuing Christian theology.

http://www.amazon.com/Adam-Serpent-Vintage-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679722327

[Igel]

15. ILL.

Inter-Library Loan.

If you don't want to keep a book forever and ever, and read faster than a snail's pace (or have a flatbed scanner and a couple of hours to kill), I recommend it whole-heartedly.

Public libraries are in the ILL network; they can ID the library systems with a copy, and request it for you. There's usually a nominal fee, $5 or something, and you get the book for a couple of weeks. Renewals are iffy, depending upon the lending library's policies.

I currently buy books that I either think I won't finish in time, aren't available in libraries, or that I will want to refer to in the future. I love ILL.

In reading about the various writings from the time, remember that some crucial information is lacking: distribution, (frequently) authorship, and acceptance. And that the current definition of "Christianity" can't be displaced back 1500 or 1800 years.