Yesterday, I attended my first Unitarian Universalist Service.

[hang a left]

It was fine. I found myself in agreement with many things that were shared by the "pastor" (?) It did feel a little different because I have never been to a service like this before. Been to church a hundred times.

At this point in my life I am really not sure what I believe anymore. I am starting some research on the origins of the bible and christianity. I want to come from place of truth which unfortunately has been lacking throughout my life. I am sick and tired of history revionsionism(if that is a word), political spin, and religious fairy tales. I want to have a spiritual self that comes from being informed and continuing to seek truth in my life.

I am going to be picking up a book I ordered, hopefully today, named "The Secret History of the Bible". That is a book, after researching many books on the subject, where I will begin my search for truth.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

[Sapere aude]

1. My advise is to, put down the books, stop going to churches, don't ask

anyone want they believe and tune into yourself. Learn to meditate. Turn inward and listen to what comes from within you. It is my belief that we are born with all we need to know in this area. The problem with us, is that we seek answers from outside ourselves and never find out what we already know.

Take time each day to do nothing. Sit quietly and try not to make any judgments about anything. Try not to think about anything. Be in the moment. Practice mindfulness. Pay attentionn to what comes to you. Do this for a time each day and you will get your answer.

If you must have a book to help you check out this book,

Wherever You Go, There You Are (Paperback)
by J. Kabat-Zinn

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/product-description/0786880708/ref=dp_nav_1/026-5021332-0277219?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books

[Ian David]

10. Personally, I find masturbation to be fulfilling on many levels.

It's sex with someone I love.

[Sapere aude]

18. Was that a critique of my post or something? Why did you post that?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

28. I didn't know there were different levels!

Kind of like Donkey Kong, then?

[niyad]

2. two that I would recommend are "when god was a woman" by

merlin stone, and "the great cosmic mother: rediscovering the religion of the earth" by monico sjoo.
you might also want to read "the woman's bible" by elizabeth cady stanton (yes, the suffragist)

good luck in your research.

[China_cat]

3. Here's a few you might want to look up

The Mind of the Bible Believer by Edmund D. Cohen
Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness by James A. Haught
Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist by Dan Barker
The Born Again Skeptic's Guide To The Bible by Ruth Hurmence Green
The Dark Side of Christian History by Helen Ellerbe

[Selatius]

4. Welcome to the fold.

Although I would call myself a Deist as opposed to a Unitarian because I generally don't ascribe a special or unique position for Jesus or Christianity or any religion, we generally hold more in common than not. Unitarians and Deists were instrumental in helping to lay the bedrock for what would become the United States Constitution.

[sam sarrha]

5. if you're tired of revisionist history, Christianity will be hard to swallow

Jesus grew up at the Crossroads of the Old Silk Road.. right where he lived the Silk road turned north to the Balkans and south to Mecca and west to Cairo.. Jesus was taken to Egypt as a child...

Buddhism had been spreading for 500 years at the time of Jesus.. and India is right along the silk road from china.. i can not figure out where else he could have discovered a philosophy of peace, love and total tolerance.. other than Buddhism, what he taught is Buddhism.. except with a few chapters missing.. i think that is why the Christians are like a boat without a rudder..

where else could he have discovered a teaching of peace in a culture where people stoned to death their friends and family for really stupid shit.. like drawing water on the Sabbath..

check out http://www.buddhanet.net ...the Four Noble Truths are the foundation of Buddhism.. all else is dialogue about them.. at their Buddhanet Audio there is a lot of information also

try to find a rental Video of the 'Little Buddha'..it is a great little film, with Kieano Reeves..

[greyl]

20. Thousands have been murdered in the name of Buddhism.

Buddhism is a salvationist religion like Christianity, and includes some of the same counterproductive and harmful misconceptions about the community of life.

Search this forum for "buddhist wars".

edit: I've decided to be a bit more helpful. ;) :

Buddhism and violence
But Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.

* in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China


* in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters


* In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

"It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing . It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb."

* In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/buddhism.shtml

‘If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment. The unity of Zen and war ... extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war now under way.’ (Zen Master Harada Daiun Sogaku – 1939).

‘Warriors who sacrifice their lives for the emperor will not die. They will live forever. Truly they should be called gods and Buddhas for whom there is no life or death. Where there is absolute loyalty there is no life or death.’ (Lieutenant Colonel Sugimoto Goro)

‘Since the Meiji period, our (Soto Zen) sect has cooperated in waging war.’ (Soto Zen Statement of Repentance – 1992).
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/links/zenatwar.htm

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't Buddhist quotes and dogma that have peaceful messages. But ideals, words and actions are different things, aren't they? In the end, Buddhism is a salvationist religion like Islam and Christianity.
"all life is suffering"
related thread

[sam sarrha]

23. you really dont understand. there is a lot of quiet debate about Zen being

Buddhism to begin with, the Buddhists are protecting themselves from the Tiger terrorists.. the Muslims Raid villages and kidnap women and children and hold them hostage for money.. if the family cant pay up they are used for sex slaves..

Buddhists can and do protect their country and families.. throwing out the mongols wasn't a totally bad thing.. you would want them out too..

a monk can hand in his robes and fight for his country and afterwords retake his vows and re enter the monastery

the Noble 8 Fold Path is a list of suggestions.. a way of life to avoid acquiring more bad karma while trying to get rid of what you already have..

your suggestion that Buddhism is Violent is really out of context and nothing but flaming ignorance of Buddhism. if i had said the same about islam i would have been F'n banned.. and this would be blocked immediately.

a person that teaches war is simply not a Buddhist.. Zen to begin with is something i have never associated with Buddhism.. for a lot of reasons. Buddhists are people too who are often imperfect.. that is a given.. they protect their countries and as for Zen.. my first association with it turned me off to Buddhism for 20 years till i finally met a Tibetan and found out what it is really about.. it isn't a religion, it has nothing to do with 'Faith'.. it is logical psychology. you shouldn't really scapegoat something unless you really know what it is.. Buddhism has always lived up to its principals.. people on the other hand sometimes don't.. and some for good reasons..

the proof you dont know what you are talking about is calling Buddhism a 'Salvationist Religion'.. :rofl: there is not salvation in Buddhism, no one to forgive you, to save you, to babysit you.. it is also not a religion, the gods have their own little play land realm, they didn't create the universe nor do they rule it, the origin of the universe is not even mentioned.. except for one comment that the subject is just a distraction and is of no consequence where it came from.. in Buddhism everyone is responsible for their own enlightenment.. Buddha is a sanscrit word that means one who is a wake.. . Buddhism is essentially a method of training the mind.. my favorite Buddhist quote is ...'a negative thought continues and increases exponentially until replaced by a positive thought, however the positive thought must be cultivated.' something you seem to need to learn to do

[greyl]

24. I sure do understand.

You may want to be cautious about jumping to unwarranted conclusions, especially without reading carefully. The fact that you claim I suggested "Buddhism is Violent" is evidence that you don't care very much to comprehend what I've written, but all message board posts are suffering, so I persist...

I don't think Buddhism is a violent religion, just like I don't think Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, or Islam are violent religions. I was only providing real world factual counterpoint to your overly glowing synopsis of Buddhism relative to Christianity as if Buddhism is superior. Most new-agey modern western Buddhist hobbyists would agree with you, so don't worry too much about it. Fact is, the billions of Buddhists who've practiced it for 1500 years know that it's a strict and austere discipline that says "no" to the world. Can't you see how similar your arguments are to those in defense of the other 4 salvationist religion apologists'?

Also, I think you are probably too attached to the idea that Buddhism is on some pedestal of morality relative to other religions to realize that it is very plainly saying that humans are born in need of salvation. The Four Noble Truths make this clear. Instead of "eternal life in heaven", one must work to attain release from the cycle of death and rebirth.

To be clear, I know there are many positive rooms in the 5 major religions. It's just that I also know their foundations are built upon quicksand.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TechBear_Seattle]

25. One other piece of Buddhist history that tends to get ignored

The empire of the Khans used Buddhism to unify the people. Much of the spread of Buddhism through Asia came at the edge of an invading army's sword.

[Wanet]

6. I highly recommend this book:

"Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but not Literally" by Marcus J. Borg. All of Borg's books are great. Wishing you blessings on your spiritual quest. -- Wanet

[54anickel]

22. Oh, I loved that book. It was where I started my journey - that one and

Church History in Plain Language by Bruce L. Shelley. I recently finished a class that used The New Testament: A Student's Introduction by Stephen Harris. Personally, I really liked that one as it's a great intro to the goals and methods of biblical scholarship, and many of the non-canonical books. Scholarly - the sort of stuff "fundies" refuse to recognize.

[Rowdyboy]

7. Check out "The Secret Gospel of Thomas"....it was excluded from the Bible,

lost for centuries, then found 1945. It's a different version of Christianity, more inward look and less dependant on church authorities telling you what to do (now why would the church possibly exclude something like that when they compiled the Bible?)

Actually, the title is "Beyond Belief: the secret gospel of Thomas".

It challenges your perceptions and your outlook on the Bible. Here's a bit from Amazon.com....

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Belief-Secret-Gospel-Thomas/dp/0375501568

Amazon.com
Shortly after Elaine Pagels’ two-and-half-year-old son was diagnosed with a rare lung disease, the religion professor found herself drawn to a Christian church again for the first time in many years. In Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas Pagels, best know for her National Book Award-winning The Gnostic Gospels, wrestles with her own faith as she struggles to understand when--and why--Christianity became associated almost exclusively with the ideas codified in the fourth-century Nicene Creed and in the canonical texts of the New Testament. In her exploration, she uncovers the richness and diversity of Christian philosophy that has only become available since the discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts.

At the center of Beyond Belief is what Pagels identifies as a textual battle between The Gospel of Thomas (rediscovered in Egypt in 1945) and The Gospel of John. While these gospels have many superficial similarities, Pagels demonstrates that John, unlike Thomas, declares that Jesus is equivalent to "God the Father" as identified in the Old Testament. Thomas, in contrast, shares with other supposed secret teachings a belief that Jesus is not God but, rather, is a teacher who seeks to uncover the divine light in all human beings. Pagels then shows how the Gospel of John was used by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon and others to define orthodoxy during the second and third centuries. The secret teachings were literally driven underground, disappearing until the Twentieth Century. As Pagels argues this process "not only impoverished the churches that remained but also impoverished those expelled."

Beyond Belief offers a profound framework with which to examine Christian history and contemporary Christian faith, and Pagels renders her scholarship in a highly readable narrative. The one deficiency in Pagels’ examination of Thomas, if there is one, is that she never fully returns in the end to her own struggles with religion that so poignantly open the book. How has the mysticism of the Gnostic Gospels affected her? While she hints that she and others have found new pathways to faith through Thomas, the impact of Pagels’ work on contemporary Christianity may not be understood for years to come. --Patrick O’Kelley

From Publishers Weekly
In this majestic new book, Pagels (The Gnostic Gospels) ranges panoramically over the history of early Christianity, demonstrating the religion's initial tremendous diversity and its narrowing to include only certain texts supporting certain beliefs. At the center of her book is the conflict between the gospels of John and Thomas. Reading these gospels closely, she shows that Thomas offered readers a message of spiritual enlightenment. Rather than promoting Jesus as the only light of the world, Thomas taught individuals that "there is a light within each person, and it lights up the whole universe. If it does not shine, there is darkness." As she eloquently and provocatively argues, the author of John wrote his gospel as a refutation of Thomas, portraying the disciple Thomas as a fool when he doubts Jesus, and Jesus as the only true light of the world. Pagels goes on to demonstrate that the early Christian writer Irenaeus promoted John as the true gospel while he excluded Thomas, and a host of other early gospels, from the list of those texts that he considered authoritative. His list became the basis for the New Testament canon when it was fixed in 357. Pagels suggests that we recover Thomas as a way of embracing the glorious diversity of religious tradition. As she elegantly contends, religion is not merely an assent to a set of beliefs, but a rich, multifaceted fabric of teachings and experiences that connect us with the divine. Exhilarating reading, Pagels's book offers a model of careful and thoughtful scholarship in the lively and exciting prose of a good mystery writer.
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

[brer cat]

8. I recommend that you just spend time with your new

congregation and see if you fit. I recently visited my niece and nephew in NM who are UU and they happened to be hosting a party from their church while we were there. What a great group of people! All were progressive dems, very informed and interesting. One surprising (to me) member identified herself as an atheist (which I consider ok) and said she had joined the congregation because of the shared social values. That's a really valuable point--you need to find a congregation that is in line with your personal views, and then learn from them the scripture/Bible or whatever helped lead them to their beliefs. Most UU's that I have known are very open to established religious views; they choose to congregate because of their social views.

I am cradle United Methodist, but I cannot possibly worship in many of our churches because of the local members/leadership. However, I can find congregations that are progressive and support the more liberal teachings of UMC which I wholly support.

Sorry for the long post, when my basic point is simple: The congregation is more important than the label.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. Brer,

here's a question for you. Do you think that your worship group must all be progressive dems? Mind you, I'm not arguing. I'm pondering.

[Ian David]

9. If you're single, I recommend the Wiccans. They have the hottest chicks

Let the god-stuff sort itself out later.

There is a wide variety among the Unitarians. If that congregation doesn't do it for you, then try another Unitarian Church.

It may also be worth poking your head into a United Church of Christ.

If you're feeling adventurous, try Reconstructionist Judaism-- I call them "The Jewnitarians."

Also, I think you'll enjoy "Secret History of The Bible."

If you decide to give-up on believing in an invisible man in the sky, there are some very nice Atheist and Humanist groups out there, too.

[hang a left]

14. Actually I am a hot chick. Brick house and everything.

So maybe I can *add* to the congregation.

[Ian David]

15. I was thinking of starting my own religion... Hotchickology.

May as well do something with my Universal Life Church ordination papers.

[cyborg_jim]

11. Depends what kind of truth you are after

If you want truth about life, the universe and everything introspection isn't going to get you very far.

If you want to know what the universe has to say poke it and see what it does.

[zeemike]

12. I wonder if searching for the truth OF the bible is worth it.

What is important is not the truth or un truth of the bible or any other book but the truth(or un truth) of it's teachings is it not?
That is when you search your own heart to find just which of them feels right in your heart and which seems just and true to you.

So I suggest something diferent...a book of fiction called Jesus the Son Of Man by Khalil Gibran written in 1928.
And although it was written as fiction I do believe I read more truth in that one small book than any serious work on the subject ever before.
it is described as Gibran's interpretation of Jesus as seen through the eyes of those who knew Him and is available for down load at
http://www.kahlil.org/jesus.html
It is a short book but superbly written by one of the last century's greatest writers.
And good luck to you on your quest.

[FtWayneBlue]

13. I've been going to the UU for 4 years, now.

A good place to meet people who are like-minded on social issues.

Here in Ft. Wayne there are a few Republicans, though. Even so, we usually all get along.

Reading The Age of Reason, written by Thomas Paine - yes, the same one who brought Common Sense - started me on my journey of leaving the Bible thumping JW's behind, after living that life for over 40 years.

I can no longer believe that a loving god would forever banish entire populations from future happiness.

[LiberalEsto]

16. A warm UU welcome!

There are a number of UUs on DU. I've been one since 1984. My husband and I have been members of 4 congregations in New Jersey and Maryland - two great ones, one so-so, and one that was very snobby. Our current one in Maryland is truly wonderful -- it's like an enormous family and it just keeps growing!

We generally call the minister a minister.

UU congregations often offer an adult evening class called "Building Your Own Theology." You might want to check and see whether they're offering this or other classes, in order to learn more and decide whether this is for you.

Good luck in finding a spiritual path!

[zeemike]

17. Here is a chapter out of Jesus the son of man

CHAPTER 12 - LUKE
(On Hypocrites

Jesus despised and scorned the hypocrites, and His wrath was like a tempest that scourged them. His voice was thunder in their ears and He cowed them.

In their fear of Him they sought His death; and like moles in the dark earth they worked to undermine His footsteps. But He fell not into their snares.

He laughed at them, for well He knew that the spirit shall not be mocked, nor shall it be taken in the pitfall.

He held a mirror in His hand and therein He saw the sluggard and the limping and those who stagger and fall by the roadside on the way to the summit.

And He pitied them all. He would even have raised them to His stature and He would have carried their burden. Nay, He would have bid their weakness lean on His strength.

He did not utterly condemn the liar or the thief or the murderer, but He did utterly condemn the hypocrite whose face is masked and whose hand is gloved.

Often I have pondered on the heart that shelters all who come from the wasteland to its sanctuary, yet against the hypocrite is closed and sealed.

On a day as we rested with Him in the Garden of Pomegranates, I said to Him, "Master, you forgive and console the sinner and all the weak and the infirm save only the hypocrite alone."

And He said, "You have chosen your words well when you called the sinners weak and infirm. I do forgive them their weakness of body and their infirmity of spirit. For their failings have been laid upon them by their forefathers, or by the greed of their neighbours.

"But I tolerate not the hypocrite, because he himself lays a yoke upon the guileless and the yielding.

"Weaklings, whom you call sinners, are like the featherless young that fall from the nest. The hypocrite is the vulture waiting upon a rock for the death of the prey.

"Weaklings are men lost in a desert. But the hypocrite is not lost. He knows the way yet he laughs between the sand and the wind.

"For this cause I do not receive him."

Thus our Master spoke, and I did not understand. But I understand now.

Then the hypocrites of the land laid hands upon Him and they judged Him; and in so doing they deemed themselves justified. For they cited the law of Moses in the Sanhedrim in witness and evidence against Him.

And they who break the law at the rise of every dawn and break it again at sunset, brought about His death.

[trotsky]

19. "The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read"

is another good one. Really opened my eyes to a LOT of religious history that I never heard anywhere else. Especially the similarities between Christianity and other religions of the time.

The most important thing is, just keep researching and go with what YOU think is right.

[greyl]

21. I highly recommend some Daniel Quinn

Start with Ishmael and The Story of B
Here's a random quote to pique your interest:

"The law you're looking for has been obeyed invariably in the living community for three billion years." He nodded to the world outside. "And this is how things came to be this way. If this law had not been obeyed from the beginning and in each generation thereafter, the seas would be lifeless deserts and the land would still be dust blowing in the wind. All the countless forms of life that you see here came into being following this law, and, following this law, man too came into being. And only once in all the history of this planet has any species tried to live in defiance of this law, and it wasn't an entire species, it was only one people, those I've named Takers. Ten thousand years ago, this one people said, 'No more. Man was not meant to be bound by this law', and they began to live in a way that flouts the law at every point. Every single thing that is prohibited under the law they incorporated into their civilization as a fundamental policy. And now, after five hundred generations, they are about to pay the penalty that any other species would pay for living contrary to this law."

Ishmael
www.ishmael.com/DQwelcome.shtml