Interesting interview with BILL MOYERS

[pnwmom]

which I'm reposting because it's too late to fix my typo -- and people might actually be interested in Moyers (as opposed to whoever the other guy is!)

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=moyers29&date=20060629&query=bill+moyers

SNIP

"There's no question that there's a great divide between the religious and the secular. But I'll tell you, most people I know — my family, my friends, my neighbors, my colleagues at work — don't live on either side of that divide. Most of us are walking a swinging bridge between them. To change the metaphor, most of us ride both ends of the seesaw of faith and doubt.

"Fundamentalists have framed the debate. They come charging in with their absolute truths like picadors, and they draw blood. But the fact of the matter is that we've allowed opposite ends of the spectrum to dominate the discourse. The Madalyn O'Hairs on one end and the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells and James Dobsons on the other end."

SNIP

" I don't think Jesus confirms the politics of the left or the right. I understand but am somewhat chagrined by some people on the left, some progressives, who are trying to encourage Democrats to imitate the God talk of the right. What we need are articulate and eloquent defenders of the Enlightenment, and eloquent and courageous champions of secular democracy. Because in the public square, secular democracy should be our god. And this is again where the right has grotesquely seized language for their own purposes.

The constant refrain that we are a Christian nation, that our founders were Christian men, that church and state belong together, is at odds with the true story of our founding era. The founders of this country were men steeped in the history of Europe, riveted with bloody religious wars. They did not want that to happen here."

[trotsky]

1. I would have expected more from Moyers

than to equate O'Hair with the likes of Robertson and Falwell.

O'Hair helped make it so that no non-Christian child is forced to pray in school.

Robertson & Falwell actively work not only to get us all to pray to their god but live according to their interpretation of its laws.

The only way in which they are at "opposite ends" of a spectrum is to have the spectrum be wild fundamentalist religion on one end, and sensible secularism at the other.

[pnwmom]

2. Maybe it was because of her vicious streak -- rather than her

philosophical views -- that Moyers links her with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Atheists

However, on Mother's Day, 1980, William Murray announced that he had been born again and become an evangelical Baptist, eventually being ordained as a minister. This development was seen by many of Madalyn Murray O'Hair's opponents as ironic. The decision caused an unresolved rift between them. Madalyn, who despised "dirty Christers," as she referred to them <1>, made the following statement shortly afterward: "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times. He is beyond human forgiveness."

[trotsky]

3. Oh, sure.

A family dispute makes her the same as saying gay people and abortion were responsible for 9/11.

O'Hair was not a very nice person, but trying to portray her as the mirror image of those two fascists is uncalled for.

[pnwmom]

5. This goes way beyond a family dispute. She had a very nasty tongue --

on paper she wrote quite reasonably -- but in person she was often quite vicious. Some people thought it was effective because it got her a lot of media attention.

[trotsky]

7. Give her the nastiest tongue in human history.

Make her the most vicious, nasty individual ever.

She helped make it the law of the land that your child doesn't have to say someone else's prayer in school.

Compare that to what Falwell and Robertson have accomplished, and continue to fight for.

Yeah, they're totally the flip side of each other. :eyes:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. I'm not researching this

but my memories of her press back in those days were that she was a bit of an extremist in other ways. Just a vague memory..I always figured she was kind of wacky. Don't know why. I agree with taking prayer out of schools.

[jonnyblitz]

10. many of her fellow atheists couldn't stand her. I always heard

she was personally terrible to people and this was from other atheists. One organization I used to be involved with (Freedom From Religion Foundation)was supposedly ( i could be wrong, though) formed as an alternative to O"Hairs American Atheists for folks who couldn't stand how O'Hair operated and wanted to be active in church/state issues.

I would NEVER consider her the in same league of disgusting as Robertson or Falwell, though.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. But they do kind of sound like opposites of the continuum

if she was rude, outspoken, mean, cranky...and they are so damned SMARMY.

[jonnyblitz]

12. I understand what you mean now that i think about it more..

my brain is preoccupied today I am not so quick! you are right although I would be very biased to cutting O'Hair slack because I like what she stood for and did officially despite her being vile behind the scenes and officially she WAS the opposite of those others mentioned so...

yes, you are correct. :D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Dang!

Somebody on DU told me I am correct! I am printing this and framing it!

[jonnyblitz]

14. well it's only my opinion

I didn't provide any links for proof! :P

also, you are being silly! I am sure I am not the first person to agree with you..you get around here.

[pnwmom]

19. LOL. Quick! Do it before it gets deleted!

[pnwmom]

18. The thing is, her writings sounded reasonable, and very idealistic

and positive. But in person . . . that was another story.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like this. I have the impression Nader is kind of like that. Very articulate, very logical -- but very hard to get along with personally.

[jonnyblitz]

20. I have the same impression of Nader, too, for some reason.

but O"Hair, I hear, was damn near IMPOSSIBLE to deal with. Her story is a strange one, how she ended up murdered along with her granddaughter (who i think she adopted as her daughter)and son by an ex-employee and how their bodies were missing for the longest time.

but i digress from your main topic! sorry..:hi:

[pnwmom]

17. Supposedly she was anti-semitic and had some other unfortunate

tendencies. Maybe she just liked to shock people, I don't know. But weren't there a bunch of diaries, or something, that came out after she died?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Moyers is right

in that the Dems should stress the Enlightenment and the true values of our Founding Fathers, which were not what the fundamentalists would recognize as their brand of Christianity at all. But it is because of their liberal philosophy that all forms of faith (or no faith at all) were allowed to flourish here. At one time, when I was a kid, if you found out what place of worship a person attended, it was, "oh, that's interesting", on the same level as hair color and what state or city they were from. Too bad it isn't that way today.

[pnwmom]

6. Do you live in the same part of the country where you lived as a kid?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Midwest-midwest south

I moved south in my 20s, and the culture was a bit different, but even back in the 70s, religion wasn't pushed down one's throat like it appears to be today.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. From what I heard of practitioners of non-Christian religions

going to the South in the 1970s, the reaction was usually friendly curiosity.

[pnwmom]

16. I don't feel like it's pushed down anyone's throat on the west coast

anyway, but Washington has the reputation of being the "least churched" state in the country.

It always sounds so weird to me to hear all these national politicians and all their "God Bless America" type statements. I remember well when people like Kennedy tried to keep religion out of the public arena. I wish we could return to those days.