so who/what is a christian?

[datasuspect]

"he's not a REAL christian"

it seems that many folks around here think the only REAL christians out there are the ones that share their views.

will the real follower of christ please stand up?

i was under the impression that irrespective or political affiliation, hatred level, or mental illness, merely making jesus christ your personal lord and savior was sufficient to make a person a christian. in my mind jerry falwell IS a christian. anyone who claims it, is it. sorry, can't look at their acts, because they are sinners anyway, and have the escape hatch of asking forgiveness anyway. love the sinner, hate the sin.

[Goblinmonger]

1. Hmmmm

:popcorn:

[Jo March]

2. Good question. Here's what I was taught

A Christian is a person who has:
1) accepted Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and Savior
2) follows the teachings of Christ (love your neighbor, follow the commandments, etc.)

I was taught that it is not enough to simply say that you are a Christian. You have to accept Christ in your heart and then follow his teachings.

It's kind of like someone who says, "I am a baseball player." They get the baseball outfit and buy baseball equipment but they never play in a game. They don't even show up for the games. Well, they are not "real" baseball players, are they?

1 & 2 have to be done hand-in-hand. "Faith without works is dead." Faith is #1 above and Works is #2 above. Becoming a Christian transforms you and makes you eager and willing to follow the teachings of Christ.

Very good post and good questions! :)

[kwassa]

3. This is your standard for Christianity

Datasuspect:
"i was under the impression that irrespective or political affiliation, hatred level, or mental illness, merely making jesus christ your personal lord and savior was sufficient to make a person a christian."

It is for some people, and not for others.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn1.htm

Range of definitions of "Christian:
"There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian" (pronounced 'kristee`ân). Different people have defined a "Christian" as a person who has:

Heard the Gospel in a certain way, and accepted its message, or
Become "saved" -- i.e. they have trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior), or
Been baptized as an infant, or
Gone to church regularly, or
Recited and agreed with a specific church creed or creeds, or
Simply tried to understand and follow Jesus' teachings, or
Led a decent life.
Following these different definitions, the percentage of North American adults who are Christians currently ranges from less than 1% to about 75%.

[shain from kane]

4. Jerry Falwell is a Christian? You've got to be kidding. He's a used

car salesman, apologies to used car salesmen. If there was never a Christ, and no Christianity, what do you think that he would be doing?
He's also a fat pig. How does that square with keeping his body as a temple?
And rumor has it that he had sex with his mother in an outhouse.

[Proud_Democratt]

26. I thought it was Jerry's dad

that was having sex with Jerry?:rofl:

[trotsky]

5. Good luck getting an answer here.

Lots of Christians want to disown anyone bad from their club. Many do it because they just don't think a real Christian could ever do bad things on the level of Bush, Falwell, etc. Others I suspect have a political agenda, and want to exonerate their religion from ever having done anything bad, and instead blame people of other faiths, or with no faith for all the problems in the world.

If two Christians could ever sit down and be in complete agreement on EXACTLY what all the "teachings of Jesus" were, there might just be a way to figure out who's a "real" Christian. Since that's never happened, and never will, all we can go on is, does someone claim to be a Christian, and if so, they are.

[datasuspect]

9. kinda weird

i notice that with christians a lot. definitions change all the time. "well, it's not that, it's really this" kinda thing. then you have the ultimate escape valve of asking forgiveness.

from what i understand, you can lead a life of shit and simply ask jesus to forgive you. actually you were already forgiven before you were born. the price paid was supposedly jesus's blood.

there's ALWAYS an out. and god himself is the master. he gets all of the praise and none of the blame.

i suppose this means that i am mad at god and need to find some "real" christians to "learn" from.

[GreenArrow]

18. well, then any of us can claim to be anything

and then we are. Why, George W. Bush could call himself a 'compassionate conservative' and abracadbra, he is one! Since there can never be complete agreement on exactly what conservatism and compassion entail/require, any argument along those lines is moot.

[trotsky]

21. Depending on how one defines the words, sure!

But religion is where it gets even more tricky. There's so much more open to interpretation. At least in the dictionary, you won't find the same word defined in two different spots in completely opposite ways. However, you will find quite a few blatantly contradictory passages in the bible, so there you go.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

35. Deja vu all over again

[Finder]

6. I think there are religious christians and philosophical christians...

A religious christian believes in the resurection, and that there is no way to heaven for those who do not accept Jesus.

A philosophical christian on the other hand is not concerned with myths and doctrines but tries to love their neighbor, treat others as they want to be treated, help the sick and poor, etc...

Falwell does a lot of what the Jesus in scripture says not to do...Praying in public, judging others, refuses to remove the beam in his own eye...

[datasuspect]

11. i am not debating the veracity or authenticity of falwell as christian

i'm just saying, he claims it, he is it.

if you tell me you are a christian, i have to take you at your word. if you sin, i still have to love you. only god can judge.

[shain from kane]

13. By saying only god (sic) can judge, you are betraying yourself as

having Christian thoughts, yet you fail to capitalize Christian, God, and Falwell.
If a person is not a Christian, then what restrictions does he have on himself about his ability to judge? Christians mouth the platitude that "only God can judge", yet continue to judge and condemn people for many activities. Sometimes, that is all I think that Christians do --- Judge.
Nothing is given. You are saying that because he claims it, he is it. I'm saying he is a lying S.O.B.

[datasuspect]

16. i don't capitalize because i am lazy

and i am not writing a term paper,

although i may not believe it (only god can judge (is there something even smaller than lowercase that i can use when i spell "god"?)), i often advocate many positions i disagree with online. but it's not fair, because i like to be more fundamentalist than many of the loons out there.

it isn't hard to learn about religions. there is no revealed knowledge about any of it that only "faith" or "prayerful reading of the bible" brings.

words mean what they mean.

they really do.

i mean what i say (IRL - online is a place for me to have fun). i hold other people to that. if you tell me you are a zoroastrian rosicrucian jew for jesus, i'm gonna take you at your word.

if someone claims it, i have to take them for that.

when you get into all the convoluted definition warping that is inherent in many people's personal practice of religion and spirituality, that is beyond the scope of what i want to deal with. that is between the individual and god, satan, the spaghetti creature, rah, what have you.

i am speaking merely of identification.

if you were a TRUE, REAL christian (and i am not saying you aren't) couldn't you do the most christlike thing you could do and actually forgive someone like falwell or (shudder) dubya?

i think jesus would. i think he would love them too.

[Theres-a]

17. You got me

f you were a TRUE, REAL christian (and i am not saying you aren't) couldn't you do the most christlike thing you could do and actually forgive someone like falwell or (shudder) dubya?


A friend of mine chewed me out because of my attitude towards bush and the other neocons.

Off topic:Good to see you,I enjoy your posts.

[GreenArrow]

19. I think there additionally people who call themselves

Christians because it provides them with a pious cloak with which to hide and disguise the nasty things they do. They know they are full of shit and they have contempt for what they profess. The same principle works with other labels as well; false patriots who wrap themselves in flags for example.

[bloom]

7. I have always figured that it isn't up to anyone

else to say if someone is or isn't a Christian - it's not up to others.

BUT - for the people who use the moniker for profit or some other thing - there are cases when I think it makes sense to question it.


If Christianity were NOT so seemingly prevalent among the population - there may be less reason to lie. As it is - there are many people who are not forthcoming about their lack of belief for various reasons - and many snake-oil salesmen. There is much opportunity for people to take advantage of others.

Actually - I think ANYONE trying to profit from it should be called out. No matter how established their religion is.


And then you have the questions about someone like Hitler - maybe he was at some times - but clearly rejected Christianity at other times. Just because he was at one time - doesn't mean he always was.

To say someone "Is a Christian" or "Was a Christian" is not precise enough to mean anything. A more meaningful question might be - like for Hitler - "Was he a Christian when he decided to have large numbers of people killed?" and even that might not tell us enough - maybe the question should be "Was being a Christian at anytime in his life a contributing factor in Hitler's desire to have large numbers of people killed?"

A question that we may never have the answers to. (Though some people may think that they do).

[WinkyDink]

8. Your capitalization of "IS" shows you DO know its usage.

That "I'm too lazy for the shift" is annoying to readers.

A Christian is one who follows the admonitions of the Sermon on the Mount and believes in the Resurrection.

Anything else is added-on options.

[BOHICA06]

10. I am a follower of Christ ....

he is my Lord an Savior.

Following Christ is not easy, as I have often fallen way behind him on the path and strayed to one wayward dead end or another. But he is most patient and when I want to return to that narrow highway - I find him there welcoming and saying, Glad to see you could join us again!" Never is there impatience or reproach, I bring enough with me.

There are lots of us walking the path and lots of us lost in dead ends trying to return. Something C.S. Lewis wrote might apply:

There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations–these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit–immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of the kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously–no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinners–no mere tolerance, or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment. Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbour, he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat, the glorifier and the glorified, Glory Himself, is truly hidden.

[Sinti]

12. I think you're right about the anyone who claims it

Strikes me that it's pretty much anyone who believes that Jesus was born the son of God to a virgin mother, and was murdered (nailed to a cross) so that God, his father, could forgive human kind for their sins... but only if they believe in him.

Further than that you get into the whole Jesus is God, God is Jesus... and the holy spirit stuff... too complex for my simple mind.

Deeds and religion have nothing to do with one another. Behavior does not follow belief, ever. There are as many moral atheists as there are moral Christians, only the atheists go to hell for all of eternity.

[datasuspect]

14. not to mention the whole transubstantiation/cannibalism thing

blood/wine

bread/flesh

icky!

[Sinti]

15. Creepy... I'm just not deep and abstract enough to get it I guess :) n/t

[Proud_Democratt]

20. IMO....a real Christian would tear Acts - Revelations out

of the New Testament and forget that Paul(of Sarsus) ever existed. He redefined what Jesus taught, creating what I would define as "Fundamentalism".

[SPKrazy]

24. Well, You Don't Throw The Baby Out With The Bathwater Do You?

some people look at Revelations as a piece of literature, well written, and not as a negative thing but a promise for the future

and Acts was written by Luke, what's wrong with Acts?

And Paul, like him or not was instrumental in Christianity.

I'm not a fan of Paul's ideas, but I admire his work and ability to carry the message.

Fundamentalism is a disease in and of itself. It is the product of people who have no ability to see shades of gray or have an open mind.

It is not the result of a book, but rather rigid upbringings where independent thought was likely punished.

either that or it is a genetic flaw?

[Proud_Democratt]

25. Paul (of Tarsus).

Why should their writings get more creedence than Jerry Falwell(an example)? Paul and Timothy spent alot of time together, but never knew Christ, in a physical sense.

[SPKrazy]

27. Well, It All Started Back Around The First Century

and the fact that these texts have stood the test of time (whereas I doubt Falwell's ideas will be remembered long after he's gone) and while those tests may not have all been fair (ie how the books of the bible got to be the books of the bible etc) they nevertheless are there.

While I am not a Paulist, and do not put his letters on the same level as the synoptic gospels, he had some things to say that were important to the early development of the Church. Things that I think one has to take in the context of the society and situations he was writing them in, but nonetheless important at that time. His letters are now usually taken out of context and used for the purposes of condemning gays, putting down women, etc. But I think originally he was fighting an uphill battle in the seeding of a new religion that he believed he had been chosen to speak for.

Now I think the discovery of "other gospels" (gnostic writings, etc) has launched the more liberal thinking theologians into taking a better look at what is said in the New Testament, how it got there, and what didn't get there. The "Church", which is the Catholic Church now, tried it's best to make sure that many of these writings didn't see the light of day. But obviously they didn't get to everything and now there is more to look at.



If anything, Falwell will (hopefully) be rememberd for being the guy who tried to sue Larry Flynt and lost!

Falwell gives us all something to think about. He is as far to the right as anyone I can think of on the religious right and while he calls himself a Christian, in my opinion he stretches the ideas of what Christ thought, taught, and did to a new dimension.

[beam me up scottie]

28. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!

Sorry, Southpaw, not laughing at you!
I googled old Larry to see what came up and look what I found on Wikipedia, the ad that done him in:

Text of the ad

Falwell: My first time was in an outhouse outside Lynchburg, Virginia

Interviewer: Wasn’t it a little cramped?

Falwell: Not after I kicked the goat out.

Interviewer: I see. You must tell me all about it.

Falwell: I never really expected to make it with Mom, but then after she showed all the other guys in town such a good time, I figured, "What the hell!"

Interviewer: But your Mom? Isn’t that a little odd?

Falwell: I don’t think so. Looks don’t mean that much to me in a woman.

Interviewer: Go on.

Falwell: Well, we were drunk off our God-fearing asses on Campari, ginger ale and soda—that’s called a Fire and Brimstone—at the time. And Mom looked better than a Baptist whore with a $100 donation

Interviewer: Campari in the crapper with Mom. how interesting.. .Well how was it?

Falwell: The Campari was great but mom passed out before I could come.

Interviewer: Did you ever try it again?

Falwell: Sure. Lots of times. But not in the outhouse. Between Mom and the shit, the flies were too much to bear.

Interviewer: We meant the Campari.

Falwell: Oh, yeah, I always get sloshed before I go to the pulpit. You don’t think I could lay down all that bullshit sober do you?

[SPKrazy]

40. Yeah, Strange As It Is, I Think Of Larry As A Hero Of The 1st Amendment!

I remember back when that ad was a controversy.

And maybe it is helped by seeing the movie the "People vs.Larry Flynt" (I think)

but yeah, it was/is funny

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. I just saw The Last Temptation of Christ

and they did a great job with that concept. Paul says "I'm glad I met you, Jesus. Now I can forget about you."

I wonder where Christianity would have ended up were it not for Paul?

[Zhade]

22. Someone who professes to believe in Jesus Christ as their savior.

Since I can't read their mind, I have to take them at their word that they believe as such.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. Agreed. I add baptism to the definition

because I think it is a prerequisite in all denominations. You are either baptized as an infant, child, or declare your intentions and are baptized as an adult.

[SPKrazy]

23. Christian=Someone Who Follows Teachings Of Christ

simple as that

[trotsky]

29. OK, now define "teachings of Christ."

Otherwise your "simple" definition doesn't really tell us much.

[bloom]

31. There are the things

in the Bible (some Bibles have them in red print) that are the things that Jesus (supposedly ) said.

Some people just concern themselves with those things (like Thomas Jefferson who made a book of just those things) and just ignore Paul and what other people supposedly said.

Jesus (supposedly) said that "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love God with all your soul" are the only things that you really need to do.

So someone could follow those basic things and say that they are following the teachings of Jesus.

[trotsky]

36. As I have pointed out elsewhere,

What does it mean to love?

Who is your neighbor?

There are conflicting interpretations of both of those.

[bloom]

38. That is where

the larger gospel becomes useful. If you want to follow the teaching of Jesus - then you would see that he cared for the poor and the sick and hungry and strangers and people of other cultures and he treated women like people.

I think most reasonable people would be able to discern that love involves concern and acting on those concerns. In the case of God - One could be inclusive and include that which is known to exist - so at the very least - it would involve not causing harm to others or to the world - as much as one is able.

There are fundamentalists who if they want to make excuses for killing and hating others - take some weird passages out of Revelation to define love -and the only neighbors they care about are the people who agree with them.

That is the good thing about being a liberal - a person can take the good parts and try to make sense of them - and leave out that parts that don't make sense. And if other people want to take seriously all the crazy parts - then you can call them fundamentalists.

If atheists had definable factions - we would do the same - we could anyway. I would say that there are liberal atheists - who like liberally religious people try to practice the "golden rule" and fundamentalist atheists who can only take everything extremely literally - even when others do not - and make fun of anyone who is not like them - and who only care about the people who agree with them.

[trotsky]

39. Yeah, and he also told his mother to get bent.

And cursed a fig tree, and brought out a whip to beat the money changers out of the temple. Then there's the weeping and gnashing bits, too.

A person is cherry-picking if they think that Jesus was only about loving everyone and helping everyone and had rainbows and unicorns coming outta his ass.

Example: the difficulty in defining "love" comes in when the idea of "tough love" is brought up. There are some people who would be quite content living on handouts from their parents for life. Is it "love" to continue to enable them? Or do you show love by hurting them, making them struggle to make it on their own? Right-wing Christianity takes that attitude toward welfare and social programs, you know. They truly think they are showing Christ's love by helping people not be dependent on the government.

So you see it's not all that clear-cut.

[bloom]

41. Most (all) liberals

that I know of - would not say that the definition of love is absolute - none would say that anyone can define love absolutely for everyone else. Of course people define love differently - have a different concept based on their own experiences, etc. Heck there probably aren't even very many Republicans who would say the definition of love is absolute.

So it seems like a strawman to me - your argument.

Just because people can have different ideas of a thing does not mean that people don't have some commonalities in their concepts. Just the same as anything that we discuss. The words can mean different things.

Only someone who thinks completely literally would not be able to see that. Or perhaps - someone who just likes to argue - would argue it just for the hell of it.

[trotsky]

42. I don't think my argument hinges on anyone saying that love is absolute.

In fact, quite the opposite - it points out that differing interpretations of what "love" is, cause the differing interpretations of Christianity.

So indeed, it appears to be your strawman, because I'm not saying it. But do throw in another "literal thinker" slam, I just love those, since it's fun to point out it's usually the accuser doing the literal thinking.

[bloom]

43. You're the one who made the argument

"So you see it's not all that clear-cut".... etc. (go back and read it if you don't remember)

....as if that invalidated anyone who tries to "follow the teachings of Jesus" - because "of course" - if people didn't know EXACTLY what he or anyone else meant than "of course" nobody can follow anything. Which could be said of any idea at any time.

That's how your argument sounds to me.

[trotsky]

44. Wow, talk about a total misrepresentation of what I said.

We're talking about how to identify a "real" or "true" Christian. Many people offer up that it's someone who follows the teachings of Christ. The natural question that arises from that is, what are those teachings? Well, the bible doesn't exactly lay it out perfectly clear. Someone coming at it from a liberal perspective will pick out the liberal bits. Vice-versa for a conservative.

That's the point. That's MY point. And since there have been umpteen thousand different sects and cults that consider themselves to be Christians (and usually consider everyone else taking the name to be wrong), I think my point is pretty valid.

Unless you can find me two Christians who agree on everything Jesus supposedly taught.

[bloom]

45. "Someone coming at it from a liberal perspective will pick out the liberal

etc.


That's what I said. Actually I said, "That is the good thing about being a liberal - a person can take the good parts and try to make sense of them - and leave out that parts that don't make sense. And if other people want to take seriously all the crazy parts - then you can call them fundamentalists."

So we are in agreement then. So what exactly are you arguing?


That they are not "true Christians" or "real Christians" unless they meet someone else's crazy definition? That's just nonsense.

Southpawkicker wrote:

23. Christian=Someone Who Follows Teachings Of Christ


You asked what they were - and I told you and as far as some people are concerned the concepts of "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love God with all your soul" is all they need to embrace. And you wanted to make it an argument about what love means and what neighbor means. Which really doesn't have anything to to with it. If someone wants to think that they are a Christian because they "Follow Teachings Of Christ" - such as I put forth THAT is ALL that is necessary. If someone else wants to make more of it - then that's their problem.

[trotsky]

46. If you really believe what you are saying,

namely:

If someone wants to think that they are a Christian because they "Follow Teachings Of Christ" - such as I put forth THAT is ALL that is necessary.

Then we are indeed in complete agreement. Bush, Falwell, et al I have no doubt believe that they are following the teachings of Jesus, and are therefore Christians.

[bloom]

47. Some Christians have

different definitions for Christians than others. So there is that.

And someone could make the argument that Bush, esp. is not following the most basic elements - which as I stated are considered to be "Love your neighbor as yourself" (the most obvious) and "Love God with all your soul".

You can see how people would have their doubts about someone following the most basic elements when for example Bush refused help to the people of New Orleans and when he was so obviously callous about the Tucker woman and when he basically doesn't care about anyone but the "have-mores".

And while most Christians are taught to not expect others or even themselves to be perfect - I think it stands to reason that Christians (just like atheists or anyone else) would like to distance themselves from homicidal maniacs.


And just like people have done throughout history - some people try to make people of other religions sound like nuts - to make their own group seem better.

[Dorian Gray]

48. I am stating my own belief,

and I know your argument and don't disagree with you (otherwise there would be no religious strife), but I thought that the roots of the word Love, as used in the Bible, usually was the same as the root of the word for Charity. So, charity is born out of love and love is born out of charity. They are one and the same.

I understand that there are many people who would not see it that way, though.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. I guess I would consider

the teachings of Christ to be the words attributed to him in the Gospel. Some are as inscrutable as zen koans, however.

[trotsky]

37. Exactly the point, T-Grannie.

You know the drill.

[Dorian Gray]

30. My definition of a true Christian...

and this is just my definition... my opinion... is someone who can recite the Nicene Creed and pretty much believes all that is in the Nicene Creed.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.




Of course, definitions may vary, but those are held up to be the most central tenants of believe in the Christian world. I know many people who claim Catholicism, though they don't particularly beleive in God anymore. So, sometimes being a "Christian" is more about a cultural identification (sort of like Judaism may be) rather than a religious or spiritual identification. But, if one claims to be Christian, I would suspect that the Nicene Creed would be the foundation of their theological beliefs.