I am putting my FAITH in GOD, that he/she will

[peanutbrittle]

slowly and strategically allow the truth to be known to all.

The truth be known of the evil that has permeated our society through the evil greedy workings of the PNAC, the military industrial complex, the BFEE, the Straussian philosophy of fear, deception and perpetual war.

I am putting my FAITH in GOD, that he/she will reveal to the masses who have been deceived into believing that the war on terrorism is about good flag waving Protestants verses evil Muslims and that Armageddon is at hand, that it is their own evil leaders who are creating the instability and end time scenario in order to line their own pockets due to their evil greedy ways.

I am putting my FAITH in GOD, that he/she will help us to spread the word to the uninformed to understand that the globalists agenda doesn't care one ioda about America or Americans. They are only here to loot and control.

I am putting my FAITH in GOD that it is he/she who is behind the building of the prison camps by Halliburton and KBR to be utilized when the American people rise up and convict these criminals of their crimes against humanity. My hope is they are are being built to house them at their own demise.

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

I will pray this every night and pray for the ones who have been deceived as well.

[dalaigh lllama]

1. ok

Just remember that God helps those who help themselves.

[jwirr]

4. Bull! That is the most conservative right wing shit I have ever

seen here on the Duers. They would agree with you whole heartedly.

[SPKrazy]

7. How So?

My interpretation is that God isn't going to do for us what we can and should do for ourselves.

I didn't take it the way of right wing propaganda

although I can see how one might

[beam me up scottie]

10. I agree with your conclusion.

:wtf:

[jwirr]

22. I get angry every time I see that statement. I believe that God

gives help through people: doctors, nurses, government programs, neighbors, friends, etc. If I see someone in need and I have the means to help the I should. When you use the "help yourself" idea you are saying that God does not expect us to help each other - he leaves it all up to the individual in trouble. That in case no one realizes it is why *ss and his ilk think we should not have social programs. Because the people who do not "pull themselves up by the boot straps" do not deserve help in their opinion. Sorry for the rant but we often do not realize where some of our cliches come from.

[SPKrazy]

29. I Took It As The Collective "Themselves"

as in society

when it is used to tell someone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, it is done in a mean and hurtful way.

but when it is done to help someone learn that they have the power to change things that maybe they don't believe they can change themselves, then it is not used in the same way.

Here I interpreted it as meaning that collectively we as a society have to do it for ourselves

Because God isn't going to do for us what we can do for ourselves

[dalaigh lllama]

42. I see your point. I think we've just interpreted the cliche

differently. I've always taken the expression to mean what you just said: that we are God's instruments, and instead of waiting passively for the big guy to descend from a cloud and pull our sorry asses out of the fire, we, as God's instruments, have to actively do his work for him. I've never understood it to mean that we're on own, and hadn't realized the expression had been suborned by the right to mean that.

[peanutbrittle]

47. Well...actually I think most interpret it as

showing one's own initiative to God and he will help to pick up the slack if you ask him to do so.

For lack of a better phrasing

[dalaigh lllama]

52. Yeah. What you said.

:)

[SPKrazy]

50. It Just Goes To Show You How Anything Can Be Spun

to meet the needs of the spinner

[Random_Australian]

76. Well, may your faith keep you strong to the path of helping others. n/t

[Random_Australian]

77. Whoops! Wrong place!

[dalaigh lllama]

16. ?

Bull! That is the most conservative right wing shit I have ever seen here on the Duers. They would agree with you whole heartedly.

"God helps those who helps themselves" is conservative right wing bullshit??? How?

[jwirr]

Read my above post and think about the reason why rwers are

so eager to be rid of social programs.

[peanutbrittle]

17. Just a little Progressive Christianity :) n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

82. HUH???

[peanutbrittle]

5. true!..I am doing my part everyday....

I e-mail out pertinent articles to several who then pass them along. I make our stance known to others every chance I get.

[SPKrazy]

8. Good For You! n/t

[shadowknows69]

2. I think God is sitting this one out

We the people are the only ones with the future in our hands.

[SPKrazy]

9. I Think That This Is True

and has always been true for the most part.

Our understanding of life as we know it can't be the same as the big picture

We are but grains of sand on the largest beach in comparison to the universe.

Our lives are what we make of them, and when we help each other we can make society better.

[bdamomma]

13. I am tired of being treated as a fool and a doormat for

this wicked regime.

[beam me up scottie]

3. Well,

if I had faith in God, I would have expected him to step in a long time ago.

[SPKrazy]

6. God Gives Humankind Free Will

and I'm afraid that people have been lulled to sleep.

It's up to US to wake them the hell up!

[bdamomma]

11. karma

for all those who believe in this, I hope bush gets repaid quickly.

[SPKrazy]

14. What Goes Around, Comes Around!

same idea

[dysfunctional press]

12. that's one of the biggest problem with society-

people depending on their god to "do the right thing".

it never happens.
because those gods don't exist.

until people can get past superstitions and mythology, and realize that THEY/WE are responsible for our own lives, planet and problems, civilization will never make meaningful progress.

[bdamomma]

15. to put it simply

we have to save our own country and our a$$e$.

[SPKrazy]

19. Whether They Exist Or Not

your basic thesis about us being responsible is true for either case.

If you believe the bible then one would say God gave us responsibility for this planet and her creatures, and we have done a shitty job of taking care of it.

If you don't believe in the bible but believe in a deity, then I'd think you would come to a similar conclusion, we have done a shitty job taking care of our habitat.

If you don't believe in the supernatural, deities, etc. then you still come to the same conclusion don't you, we've done a shitty job taking care of our habitat.

We have to do what is in front of us to do.

I don't personally know anyone that is waiting for "God" to take care of things in a literal sense.

I do keep waiting to some extent for people to come to their senses.

But when propaganda is being run saying global warming is false, that the "liberal media" is lying about Iraq, etc.

There is obviously a percentage of the public that believes it hook line and sinker. Then there is a percentage that don't believe it, but feel powerless to do anything about it. Then there are those who think someone else will take care of it for them. Then there are those of us who know we have to do it. It's our planet, our nation, our illegal war, our illegal president.

It's not "them", it's us!!!

and it is indeed an overwhelming task to say the least, but each day, like water on stone, we wear away at the fabric of lies, and deceits that have taken over and we prevail! One small battle at a time.

[beam me up scottie]

35. Yep.

We have done a shitty job.

I don't have much faith that people will come to their senses anytime soon, though.

How long ago did Rachel Carson write Silent Spring?

[SPKrazy]

38. 1962

had to google it

[beam me up scottie]

46. And we're still listening to people who tell us nothing's wrong.

We have our heads buried in the sand.

How long before tigers become extinct?

Pandas?

Polar bears?

It makes me sick to even think about how many species we've already doomed.

[SPKrazy]

57. Yes, I Forget How Many Species Disappear Every Day!

whatever the number was, it was ASTOUNDING!

Species just gone, no longer a part of our planet.

Sure, that might happen in the course of normal evolution, but we are accelerating that tremendously by our poor stewardship of this planet.

Have you ever read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn?

It is a strange book, but fascinating. About a Gorilla that can communicate with some people.

And he knows the key to saving the planet.

There's like at least one yahoo e-group that discusses it.

It's definitely worth a look, even though it's subtitle is "an adventure of mind and spirit" I don't recall it being anything that was particularly aligned with a spiritual belief.

(Now if you read it and find otherwise, I apologize, it's just been a while since I read it.

[beam me up scottie]

61. No, but I'll definitely look it up.

Thanks for the heads up, and I'm not allergic to spirituality at all.

I love good fiction, movies and art.

The only thing that gives me hives is bible thumpers and their dogma.

I am genuinely curious about all different religions but I get so worn down from living and working with fundies, sometimes I forget that there are all kinds of believers out there.

[SPKrazy]

63. Well, I Can Guarantee That

any spirituality in the book is way far away from fundie type stuff.

Peace

gotta go

[beam me up scottie]

67. Excellent!

Take care, Southpaw.

[peanutbrittle]

68. I find hitting them over the head with the

Sermon on the Mount works pretty well. Just make the off hand comment that you believe some good Christians need to go back and re-read the liberal views of Jesus in his most important speech in the Bible the "Sermon on the Mount"

Shuts them up pretty quick

[beam me up scottie]

70. Sounds fun!

I might just have to try that out tomorrow. :D

How much did you say it weighs?

[greyl]

62. Ishmael is one that everybody should read.

(plus at least the two "sequels": My Ishmael and The Story of B.

"What I said in Ishmael stands: There is no One Right Way to live. What we find among Leaver peoples is that each has a way that works well for them. We may not like one particular way, we may think it atrocious and cruel, but it's their way, not ours, and the most murderous culture in human history is hardly in a position to set itself up as the moral policeman of the world. -from Quinn's Providence

http://www.ishmael.org/welcome.cfm

edit: To relate this to the OP, Quinn would not approve giving the responsibility to Gods to fix things.

[SPKrazy]

65. I Haven't Had A Chance To Read The Sequels

but I will likely do that in the near future

Ishmael was a great read though.

On edit: you are right, Quinn would say we had to fix it.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Thanks!

ARgh...my reading list is so long I'm ashamed to even look at it.:blush:

[catbert836]

98. Well, I'd try to bump "Ishmael" up a couple of places.

It's one of those change-your-life kinda books, and on top of that, it takes only 3-4 hours to read.

[greyl]

107. Have you read The Story of B yet?

Another excellent one.

[catbert836]

110. Yes, I have.

Overall, I didn't think it was as good as "Ishmael"- I thought the characters were kinda interchangeable, and the climax fell flat a little bit, but its ideas have the same value. Possibly the most chilling (or inspiring) line I've read from a book is "The contagion has spread. You are B."

I also read "My Ishmael", which is just as good or better than "B".

[greyl]

111. I thought it was a bit better

though I can never know how I'd feel if I weren't primed by Ishmael first.

I liked it more because it was a more direct attack.

[greyl]

112. Jesus failed to address that

as far as I know. He didn't champion saving the Barbary Lions or Dodo. (they're gone forever)

(btw, "an adventure of mind and spirit" was added by the publisher)

[dalaigh lllama]

49. Amen.

Whether or not one believes in a higher power, it's still up to us to do the butt-kicking.

[SPKrazy]

58. That's Right! n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

83. Of course we are responsible for ourselves

but I put forth that civilization has made very meaningful progress, even burdened as we are with "superstitions and mythology."

[Erika]

18. As the Pope asked, where was God during the holocaust?

He/She seems still be absent today.

[hlthe2b]

20. God gave us free will...

didn't he/she? Sort of falls to us to use it, I think...:shrug:

[SPKrazy]

23. God Didn't Cause The Holocaust

whether one believes in him/her or not, it is really hard to argue that God caused the holocaust.

And because God gives us free will, there will always be evil people that do the most horrendous things we can imagine.

But it is up to us to clean up our own side of the street. To speak out. To scream out if necessary. To fight the good fight!

God, or no God!

[Erika]

27. I thought it strange the Pope would ask that question

But I'm not Catholic.

[SPKrazy]

31. Yes It Was Strange

although someone in the R & T forum suggested that maybe he was asking the question that we all ask when horrendous and terrible things happen, Why?

i'm not Catholic either, and I'm not sure what he meant, but surely he wasn't asking it as a literal question

[Erika]

21. Who says God is a man? It appears to invent men & women

The person would have to be bisexual.

[SPKrazy]

26. I Would Think That God Is Sexless

spirit, otherworldly, or multidimensional.

Who the hell knows?

Just my thoughts

bisexual? maybe

[peanutbrittle]

28. per your observation...edited :) n/t

[Disturbed]

34. Human qualities are assigned to a god.

In my view there is no god that has anything to do with this planet. Blaming or praising a god is pure superstition. Expecting a god to intervene in any human endeavors or causing anything on this planet is pure fantasy.

[SPKrazy]

40. Human Features Are Assigned To A God

I think because we as humans have no other frame of reference

to each his own in the belief department

I do not think that God is going to intervene in what we are doing to our planet and habitat.

The planet will survive, we may not

[Erika]

41. But for the fantasy of an after life, belief is understandable

I can't quite do it though.

[SPKrazy]

44. You Know The Interesting Thing?

none of us know for sure

in fact, I doubt anyone knows beyond their own suspicions or beliefs

But it is a nice thought, and if it doesn't turn out to be true (afterlife) then I won't know the difference anyway, right?

:D

[Erika]

54. And I might be pleasantly surprised or horrified

if I'm wrong.

[Leber tsohG]

24. Yes...

I too have faith in God that he will bring justice to these bastards but God will not do it for us. God did not hand the Elite their power, the Elite worked hard and long for it by doing whatever was necessary.

how hard will the people work for their freedom?

[Erika]

30. Just sing those old Black slave spirituals

and talk about how hard the rich worked.

Swing high, Swing low, sweet chariot.

[omega minimo]

48. Jump down turn around

Give a pass to Enron
Jump down turn around
Bring on Judgement Day
:nuke:

[Erika]

55. Coming to carry me home n/t

[omega minimo]

60. I looked over yonder and what did I see?

Vermin squirmin under the Dome

[Erika]

64. Michael rode the boat ashore

Hallelujah

[stevedeshazer]

25. Pray, my friend

I don't share your faith, but I love your message,

[SidDithers]

32. Well, good luck with that...

but while you're praying, the rest of us will be getting to work.

Sid

[SPKrazy]

33. Pray, and Then Put Your Prayers Into Action

I think the old saying

"faith can move mountains but you better bring a shovel" is appropriate here.

Those who pray, should pray, but they should also pick up the shovel (so to speak) and not just pray.

[peanutbrittle]

39. I'm having lunch tomorrow with a progressive pastor......

Probably will be discussing some "current affairs". As bad as it is right now, I think I'll spring that one on him. "faith can move mountains but you better bring a shovel"

thanks for reminding me

[SPKrazy]

43. Shovel In Hand!

anytime

[peanutbrittle]

80. Sadly...Maybe an earthmover would be appropriate n/t

[Ilsa]

36. I was just watching Noam Chomsky on CSPAN 2 telling the USMA

on April 20 the truth about how we chummied up to Saddam Hussein and took him off our terrorism watch list back when Raygun was prez and Rumsfeld went to see hi. I wonder if they had even heard that in their modern history classes. I think it was Naval Academy; looked like midshipmen in white. Perhaps God or Goddess is using NC to get the truth out.

[SPKrazy]

45. What Other Tools Does he/she Really Have?

I mean burning bushes aside

we are the message

Noam Chomsky is the message

[dalaigh lllama]

56. I just have to say

I agree 100% with everything you've posted on this thread. Thanks for the input.

[SPKrazy]

59. Thanks

I appreciate that

[omega minimo]

37. After reading the entire thread

I have no idea what any of you are talking about :evilgrin: :hi:

[feduppuke]

51. I am putting my FAITH in GOD, that he/she will

Help me leg press 2,000 pounds? :)

[SPKrazy]

53. Maybe s/he will

but I bet you will have to start with what you can actually press first

and work your way up

(assuming you have he true desire to press 2000 lbs)

[feduppuke]

69. Sorry

Should have linked an explanation...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_re_us/robertson2000

[beam me up scottie]

71. I think we should try it out on Pat first.

:evilgrin:

[bluesbassman]

73. I'd even donate to his "ministry"...

to see him try! :eyes:

Although I might feel a little sorry for him when they take him away in the ambulance.

[beam me up scottie]

74. Well, for once he'd have to put his money where his

uh...mouth is.

:rofl:

[Proud_Democratt]

72. We've been waiting for 2000 years for Jesus to do something..

and 6000 for the Judaic God. When will the Western World wake up and create peace instead of creating war.

"When the fables end....peace will begin"

[bluesbassman]

75. The Jews spent 400 years in slavery to Egypt.

I think God works with a different "clock" than we do.:)

But you're right PD, we need to create peace instead of war. I just don't think the responsibility lays with one group, we're all responsible for whatever course mankind takes.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

84. I guess about the same time humanity evolves

away from the need to study war.

[Random_Australian]

78. Well, may your faith keep you strong to the path of helping others. n/t

[Strong Atheist]

79. Whatever.

:eyes:

[trotsky]

81. "Nothing fails like prayer."

Good luck with that.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

85. I get answers for my prayers

but unfortunately, the answer is often "no" or "not yet."

[cain_7777]

86. Another "faith" in god bullshitter!

I am sick of this crap. Go waist your time praying and beleiving that god will help while you sit on your fat ass. The rest of us actually take action to change our situatiuon for the better. You on the other hand would still be stuck in the dark ages if we didn't come around and enlighten the bible humpers.

[SPKrazy]

89. Kind Of Harsh

go "waist" your time somewhere else if you can't be civil in a civil discussion

[cain_7777]

93. Seriously though...

Become active if you don't like your situation because praying will never change anything like saying abra cadabra will will never make a rabbit pop out of a hat. Go to the polls, tell people that they are becoming disenfranchised, remind them what this country use to stand for and warn them about what it is becoming, or you can just have faith.

[beam me up scottie]

95. It was still a little harsh.

No, not a little, extremely harsh.


Do you convince many people to see things your way by acting like a jerk ?


Hmmm?

[cain_7777]

99. Religious people are like alcoholics in denial...

I can never convince a religious person not to believe in their superstitions because they are so lost from rational thought; however, discourse with people rooted in reality, yes, I can convince people too see things my way. To people who believe in superstition, I'm probably going to come off as a jerk because I think they need to connect a few more neurons.

[peanutbrittle]

100. Just curious...

Do you think that religion has added anything positive to the human race or experience since it's inception?

Is it something that has mostly had a negative effect on our evolution of existence? Or?

[cain_7777]

102. Organized religion as a whole has harmed society more...

than the good it has done. Religion has stifled free thought, massacred countless innocent people, burned libraries, and is the bane of humanity. There have been truly good religious people that have compassion but they are drowned out by the masses. I assume that you are a christian, and that you do not know that religion has evolved from man's own ignorance. It's funny that christians think Genesis is original to the bible, when in fact they plagiarized the stories from ancient Egyptian creation myths, and that even those stories were predated and ripped off from earlier stories and so on. Like language, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all come from the same root, split and evolved into what they are today. When I start to speak of the history involved with religion, people like you begin to squirm and change the subject to what the bible says, instead of what the bible means in context of history. Religious people are dangerous because they are irrational, choosing fantasy over reality, and ignorance over knowledge.

[peanutbrittle]

105. Well....

I attempt to live my life as close to the way Jesus wanted us to live our lives as human beings as imperfect as I may be at doing so, the basic moral values and love for creation are embedded in my heart.

When you think about it religion, in a more simplfied context, is at the very foundation and origin of mans existence. The very first being his inbred desire to discover and the primitive belief in natural wonders and mysteries.


P1132:5, 103:3.5 Man evolved through the superstitions of mana, magic, nature worship, spirit fear, and animal worship to the various ceremonials whereby the religious attitude of the individual became the group reactions of the clan. And then these ceremonies became focalized and crystallized into tribal beliefs, and eventually these fears and faiths became personalized into gods. But in all of this religious evolution the moral element was never wholly absent. The impulse of the God within man was always potent. And these powerful influences -- one human and the other divine -- insured the survival of religion throughout the vicissitudes of the ages and that notwithstanding it was so often threatened with extinction by a thousand subversive tendencies and hostile antagonisms. http://www.theoquest.com/ubcenter/ubook/103-3.cfm

And some more thoughts that express the issue much better than I could:

p1006:3 92:3.6 Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality nor ethics, no worth-while civilization. Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture: Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.
p1006:4 92:3.7But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be recorded that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death. Evolutionary religion, human religion, has indeed been guilty of all these and many more mistakes, errors, and blunders; nevertheless, it did maintain cultural ethics, civilized morality, and social coherence, and made it possible for later revealed religion to compensate for these many evolutionary shortcomings.

p1006:5 92:3.8Evolutionary religion has been man's most expensive but incomparably effective institution. Human religion can be justified only in the light of evolutionary civilization. If man were not the ascendant product of animal evolution, then would such a course of religious development stand without justification.

p1006:6 92:3.9Religion facilitated the accumulation of capital; it fostered work of certain kinds; the leisure of the priests promoted art and knowledge; the race, in the end, gained much as a result of all these early errors in ethical technique. The shamans, honest and dishonest, were terribly expensive, but they were worth all they cost. The learned professions and science itself emerged from the parasitical priesthoods. Religion fostered civilization and provided societal continuity; it has been the moral police force of all time. Religion provided that human discipline and self-control which made wisdom possible. Religion is the efficient scourge of evolution which ruthlessly drives indolent and suffering humanity from its natural state of intellectual inertia forward and upward to the higher levels of reason and wisdom.
p1006:7 92:3.10And this sacred heritage of animal ascent, evolutionary religion, must ever continue to be refined and ennobled by the continuous censorship of revealed religion and by the fiery furnace of genuine science. http://www.truthbook.com/UrantiaBook/U92.htm

Which is why I believe the coupling of science and religion will bring man to it's next stage of development through both scientific revelation and divine revelation in knowledge and wisdom.

Just some thoughts

[beam me up scottie]

104. I hate bigots.

Of any kind.

And your pseudo-intellectual arrogance has convinced me all right.

I'll leave it up to your overactive imagination to figure out just what it is I'm convinced of. ;)

[Random_Australian]

109. You're going to come off as a jerk because you've not had any manners,

and if you want to reduce or remove religion, that is NOT the way to go about it.

[peanutbrittle]

96. Trust me.......I'm carrying my share of the water in more ways

than you may know. :)

[SPKrazy]

108. I Can Do Both

and you don't get to keep me from doing both

and you never know, I believe in prayer

[Dorian Gray]

113. This is kind of mean.

Some people do great things because of their faith in God. Some do may use it to justify their laziness. It's not "waist"ing time, though.

I think enough people here have come to the conclusions that we need to work our butts off to make a difference in this world. So, I don't see anyone here with a "fat ass."

[WritingIsMyReligion]

87. I'm putting my faith in myself.

After all, we can do things a hell of a lot more quickly than any god could.

When, o when, will people begin to take responsibility for their own actions?

:cry:

[Proud_Democratt]

88. Will you marry me? I like your outlook.

Just kidding....:)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

91. LOL...

Sorry, but that would be illegal, at least where I live. Age of Consent, and age to marry, and all that rot...

:D

:hi:

[Proud_Democratt]

92. Didn't realize your age....my bad.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

94. No problem.

:)

:hi:

[kwassa]

101. Is the age of consent in Pennsylvania still 14?

It used to be.

[Zhade]

90. I'd rather work against these things...

...than wait around for some unproven supernatural deity to 'save us from ourselves', personally.

Putting faith in gods to work it out seems so...so...apathetic to me.

[catbert836]

97. That's a pretty bad attitude, if you ask me.

Expecting God to solve all our problems for us is among the worst excuses there are for doing nothing. If the God you believe in exists, I'm sure he wouldn't want his followers to be sitting around, waiting for him to make everything right.

And, God has failed to stop numerous atrocities throughout history, what makes you think he'll be the one to pull the plug on Bush and his group?

[peanutbrittle]

103. For those who may think I'm sitting on my fat ass......

Just to clarify, I'm sending out at least 3-4 emails per day of articles which directly relate to our cause to 3-4 others who then are passing them on to others far and wide. As well as voicing my concerns on the streets to people I meet every chance I get.

because

"The revolution will not be televised"

The names have been wiped out to protect the innocent :)



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[catbert836]

106. I was just making sure.

I'm very sorry if I offended you in any way.

As long as you're doing something, there's no reason not to pray for God's help. It certainly can't hurt.