Is fighting our animal instincts, and losing the battle, the basis of SIN?

[heidler1]

I submit that sexual desire in humans is built into our genetic code. This desire is very similar to all other animals. However the Bonopos Chimpanzee are humans closest sexual behaviour match. Do they live in peace because they neve bought into the SIN/control BS.

REPRODUCTION:
The bonobo gives birth to a single offspring. During estrus the perineum of the female will swell up (Estes, 1991). The bonobo is the only primate besides man who engages in mating for other purposes than procreation. Mating is not only dorso-ventral, as it is in Pan troglodytes, but it is also ventro-ventral, or face-to-face (Nishida and Hiraiwa-Hasegawa, 1987). Amongst females genital-genital rubbing, or G-G rubbing, is common and serve to communicate reassurance (Nishida and Hiraiwa-Hasegawa, 1987). Females will lay on top of each other face-to-face and move their pelvises so that the clitoris of each rubs together. Also juvenile males will rub each others genitals and place their mouths on each others genitals. Young bonobos often join in with the adults when they are having intercourse. Both males and females solicit copulations (Nishida and Hiraiwa-Hasegawa, 1987). Generally most matings occur in the morning, with the second time period for occurance happening in the evening (Nishida and Hiraiwa-Hasegawa, 1987). MORE AT http://members.tripod.com/uakari/pan_paniscus.html

Peaceful and powered by females
... In contrast to the competitive, male-dominated culture of their close relative the chimpanzee, bonobo society is peaceful, matriarchal and more egalitarian. Bonobos live in large groups where harmonious coexistence is the norm. While in many ways, males and females have “separate but equal” roles, females carry the highest rank, and the sons of ranking females are the leaders among males. Females form close bonds and alliances, which is another way they maintain their power among males, who are larger and stronger physically. MORE AT
http://www.bonobo.org/whatisabonobo.html

[tocqueville]

1. well, you explain it with the description of chimp society

and those perverted bonobos are gay too :sarcasm:

[Lerkfish]

2. I don't think so. we're given instincts for a reason. Sin

involves the opposite of treating others as you would yourself.

animal instincts in and of themselves are not counter to God's purpose.

[400Years]

3. I don't believe in sin

[tocqueville]

4. Sin is a Judeo-Christian (Islamic) invention

it doesn't have the same meaning in Hindu-Buddhist religions (where it means creating bad karma) and aimed to give controll to priests in a theocratic society. What can be worse than go against the "will" of God (at least in the human translated version) ?

Sin doesn't exist

[carl_pwccaman]

5. Flesh is Flesh

It still seems to me that such a study is only concerning itself with behavior in this world of flesh.

Look at one human sub-group or another, still behavior in this world, in bodies of flesh.

Whatever the nature of the body really is, it isn't the nature of spirit and knowledge. Living beings here in this world, contend with flesh and ignorance.

To be bound by sexual and other desires, is bondage. To be bound by religious rules of abstinence of this kind or another, is bondage.

When someone discovers the fullness that humanity can be, within them, they are less bound, they begin to know something about themselves and about the silliness of these worldly and bodily conditions and worldly religious authorities, and they can see and know and act more in accord with that good and spiritual reality that can shine upon souls.

[Proud_Democratt]

7. I would agree..

with this, since there are no earlier records of sin than outlined in the Torah. The Bible is based and expanded on the first 4 books of the Torah.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

6. Sin is a nonsensical Judeo-Christian-Islamic invention.

There's no such thing--sin is used to further control the masses.

/conspiracy theorizing

:D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. Do you believe there is such a thing

as immorality, then? Forget the word "sin." Substitute "immorality."

How about that?

T-Grannie

[WritingIsMyReligion]

12. Certainly.

I would also argue, however, that some of the finer points--hell (no pun intended :D), even some of the largest ones--of morality are deeply subjective to one's worldview. Take "Thou shalt not murder"--it's in the Ten Commandments, and it's a pretty general moral point--don't kill other people. However, it seems to me that even this has caveats to it, depending upon one's worldview--radical Muslims would argue that it is essential to kill Western imperialists, while Christians have in the past (i.e. the Crusades) killed many, many people despite this Commandment, and generally people whose religious views differed from theirs.

So the concept of sin--of doing something that is objectively, across-the-board seen as bad, and needs to be repented and/or punished for--seems a little sketchy to me. If people even within the same faiths, the same denominations, cannot agree to their own ascribed moral points as one group, then who is a priest, etc. to be telling me what is right and what is wrong?

"Sin" also has inherently (and by this I mean by definition) negative connotations--it is obviously reminiscient of fire-and-brimstone sermons, Jonathan Edwards, etc. I dislike this--it isn't that I believe that the concept of "sin" is actually a positive one, but I object to the constant inferences people make of this, which is that humans are inherently bad. Faulted, yes, mortal, yes--but not bad. Different, unique, original--not bad.

In a nutshell, I guess one could say that I object to the classification of people as "sinful" or "virtuous"--those are terms for actions, not living, breathing beings. As a very nontraditional spiritualist, I also honestly believe that there is no supernatural force that extends beyond our natural world, and so everything in the world is of equal divinity--there is no being that humans should subjugate themselves to, for every human is as powerfully divine a being as one can hope for. "Worship inside--no one can change your life as quickly as you can" is a kind of mantra of mine.

:shrug:

[okasha]

16. Really?

The Egyptians had a pretty firm notion of sin a couple thousand years earlier than the Torah. Check out the "negative confession" made at the weighing of the heart.

[undergroundpanther]

8. Sin?

Our animal natures are of this world. It's sinful because this world is flawed.. Like the creator of materiality is flawed.
Sin as far as I can tell as a Gnostic, means KNOW yourself..don't let your own lust make you act like a repulsive lech, don't let the lust impulse in you be used by the world to use others ,Don't let lust convince you it is ok to disregard others dignity to ogle like a rabid dog at them to cause fear or shame, Don't let your lust urge you to become a rapist asshole. Don't Let the flesh dominate you to the point you lose your sense of empathy and senses of what is good and evil and the inner locus of control that ebnables humanss to live together ,All that is because of an effect of ignorance about the nature of evil or sin, caused by the condition of being spiritual being trapped in a material world.

Spiritual people struggle against sin not because spirit is evil by nature..It is because the world is evil. We sin because we are trapped in a corrupted substance (flesh)that is CONTRADICTORY to the nature of spirit.We struggle against the flesh,kick against the"pricks" and do what we most do NOT want to do,and sometimes we do it anyways. This is because spirit is trapped here in flesh in bodies with base urges built into it that the evil creator of the material world installed into our bodies to act as spiritual fetters and as our biological survival mechanisms to keep the body alive.(the Gnostic spirit is not the same as the "god creator of the world",it is a great unknowable.unnameable)Gnostics see there are two gods,two types of reality, two seperate principles in conflict.
See this to get a taste of the Gnosis view of the great mysterious beyond "god".
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/thunder.html

For Gnostic's Death of our flesh and the death of life in the world,and the force of entropy is what liberates our spirit from the evil material creator,it's world,the flesh and psyche holding us here,confusing us and hurting us sometimes through other people or through ourselves by trauma,or illness ..whatnot... A gnostic fights the seduction of materiality mainly to avoid causing more suffering than there is already here.Overcoming sin is not a self blame game or"sacrifice for repentance" routine for Gnostic's.It's about empathy,liberation and coping with the suffering while we are imprisoned here. For me because of the flesh's inclination to sin I do the best I can to stop abuses,lies or other things that may prevent a spirit from knowing itself and escaping flesh, I do not want to create more suffering here,more traps on spirit and the Gnosis process by my actions or words. It requires me to be sensitive cultivate empathy for myself and others and a willingness to listen and put my self aside. Sometimes it requires me to act in a violent way or speak and offend. It is a case by case judgment call I have to make.

I know I will get it wrong sometimes because I am a alien spirit stuck in a material and dying world full of delusions,confusion and pain.So I don't judge myself I learn from it and do not do it again.

There is no groveling to 'my creator' to'forgive me' . No cosmic scorekeeper adding up the tally of my 'karma" balance sheet'. No shame of making mistakes ,and no paying for it in suffering or rejection after death. No condemnation and guilt or self responsible over compensation as if it could erase the past.No prayer or rituals to please a hypocrite god. None of these traps about sin exist in the gnostic view of sin.

I just have to seek insight,deeper understanding of right from wrong recognize my spirit from my flesh,accept the fact I am trapped in flesh,weakened by biology,and I am imperfect because of this prison..forgive myself and don't do that way again if it caused suffering..And of course I ask for more wisdom to know myself better so I can further discern sin from spiritual and see the true source of my motives..I Discern within,I ask myself is this desire of flesh or spirit?

But in my perspective Sin is caused by the effects of a conflict with this material reality itself when it imposes traps upon spiritual beings..my imprisonment and life here has NOTHING to do with the spirit's quality inside me .Sin and materiality cannot corrupt my spirit,but it can hurt the body and the psyche and that causes the spirit to cry out for liberation that death can bring if said spirit understands the material world is trapping it, tormenting it,and spirit has already decided to let go of this world and reject the crazy demands and mind-games of the creator god(the false god)and all it's masks and deceptive marketing( as in false beliefs,dogmas,traditions etc.) .
Material reality and it's creator is responsible for all sins against spirit in bodies and the creator and it's spiritless humans the "the klippoth" are also responsible for tormenting and confusing spirit through the material bodies and minds holding it prisoner.The Creation of materiality by the false god and it's theft of spirit from the unnameable source is the original sin . This is why Jesus or Logos forgives OUR spirit's confusion and and does not forgive the sins IN our flesh..Jesus knows we are not of this world and we are victims of this world,spirits imprisoned in bodies made of sin.We ate fruit of the tree of wisdom to know good and evil,to know what we are from and escape the bondage from tyrant god of the garden..

Judgment comes to the creator of material reality all the time since we left eden because everything alive here changes,rots,corrodes or dies(impermanence).This is a gift for gnostic liberation. .To material fleshy beings without spirit inside them death is to be feared.To those with a spark or spirit sown inside them death is liberation from flesh,sin and the limits of materiality itself blaming it's sin on spirit.Death is not feared by Gnostic's..Torture however is worse than death because it is a SIN to torment a spirit through the flesh..So those of spirit know this difference and show it by enforcing boundaries within themselves and in relationships and by discerning good from evil and not mixing them or calling evil good and good evil.Gnostics are dualist's.We separate the spirit ,it originates from a different source from the evil source of flesh, psyche and materiality .

To see what sin is in the Gnostic sense one must be willing to reject being held hostage to the whims and demands of the creator of this world and it's various social and personal sock-puppets in us and all around us..One must be willing to let go of the idea of creating a utopia because this world will pass away. To accept the flawed existence of materiality itself as it is, is hard for people who are trapped and enchanted by this world.

To let go of this world,and fall out of love with it, realize this is not your home or your true nature.Gnostic's admit they are not from this world, alienated and we long for something better than this.Honestly looking at this sad situation we are in as it really IS, is beginning to see beyond the darkness,beyond beliefs, fear and death itself. Gnostic's lose the fear of death,they give up struggling for survival and they don't cherish self preservation as the spirit of Gnosis shows them what they really are and how they see life and their purpose here changes. Changing the world ,pleasing or hating the body,even concern over the god of this world stops being so damn important.

Freedom from sin in the gnostic sense does not mean the same sort of thing as buddhist detachment from clinging to existence,or ego or the concepts of right action or 'karma'..Buddhist detachment is a type of stoicism that is false and to do this requires belief in a false self responsibility for the sin of materiality. Many of typical orthodox christian teachings about sin and self responsibility and such do similar mental traps. Most belief systems attempt to spare the body,never totally reject the flesh and they make excuses about the evil of the creator of flesh. They do this by making the victim responsible for sin it did not create or cause(original sin)or(karma)and these sorts of beliefs too often justify abuses (sins)against the human spirit and the mind-games confuses and traps spirit from ever really being able to know itself without fear that orthodoxy exploits controlling it's searching for wisdom.

The Gnostic understanding of what sin is and the effects of sin,and whom the responsibility for sin rests with is very different than all other belief systems out there.

[JerseygirlCT]

10. Sin isn't about sex

Sin is literally missing the mark. It's whatever takes one away from God, away from a loving stance toward others.

It requires a free-will, which to me at least, means consciousness of the act (of the sin).

I think focusing strictly on sexual behavior is a limited way of looking at it.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Tell that to the fundies.

If they spent as much time doing it as they do obsessing about how others do it, the world would be a much better place.

So says BMUS.

[JerseygirlCT]

15. LOL! Probably -- see my response below. nt

[heidler1]

13. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

The point of my post was to question the way sex is controlled and put down by religion versus the sexual freedom of the Bonobo Chimps.
There is reason to believe that mankind would be happier if we practiced the Bonobo way. Sure there are other sins spelled out by some religions.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. And I guess my point is that the whole

obsession with sex as sin (and the related idea that anything NOT sex isn't) is a perversion of Christian beliefs. And yes, one that has been used forever by those in search of power -- political or religious.

The focus on sex removes the focus on other things that harm people or our relationship with God. Sometimes sex is harmful -- to others, to ourselves. But often there are other things -- pride, anger, violence... that do much more harm and are ignored, b/c they're not the big, bad sex thing.

IOW, I think we're agreeing, essentially.

[trotsky]

17. Nice choice of words. :-)

sex as sin ... is a perversion of Christian beliefs

But you do know that it's not so much a perversion as just a different interpretation. Go back and read Paul's letters and see how friendly he is to the idea of sex. And not just harmful sex - ANY sex. His grandstanding about how it's best to be celibate like him, etc.

Attitudes about sex being bad are certainly well-grounded in Christianity.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Have to put Paul in some context, though

He really, truly, thought the end was near. Like tomorrow near. In that mindset, sex was a diversion from the burning issue at hand, you know? Anything that took his attention away from preparing for Christ's imminent return just wasn't within his realm of understanding.

So, yeah, he didn't see the point, I suppose. It was all about focus for him.

Not that the rest of Christian theology and history ought to therefore be based on him, however. I do understand that particularly today's fundie Protestants have a real Paul thing -- more than a Jesus thing, IMO.

[heidler1]

19. IMO part of the blame for the Catholic Priest's preying on alter boys goes

to Paul's attitudes, that are in the Bible, about sex. Also IMO even with good intentions putting religious barriers up to prevent normal sex tends to cause people to resort to perverted sex. I'm sure that other things also cause perverted sex.

[carl_pwccaman]

22. ? Paul didn't make a Pedophile or Ephebiphile that way...

Someone is either a Pedophile, that is, ready, willing, able, and interested in having sex with pre-pubescent children, or not. A lot of it has to do with power, apparently.

Someone is either an Ephebiphile, that is, ready, willing, able, and interested in having sex with an adolescent, or not, and they are either willing/able to force the issue or manipulate or take advantage of such adolescents, or not.

Paul didn't make them that way, that's for sure. I wouldn't blame celibacy itself, since if attempts at abstinence from masturbation, sexual thoughts, sexual activity, etc., caused it, then why is it so many people are able to successfully deny themselves, without raping someone, without taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable or subordinate position, without molesting a minor, etc. Lots of people don't have dates, and think it is a sin to masturbate.

Lots of teenagers have the self-discipline to refrain from raping or sexually harassing someone, and look at the sex drive pressures they are under. Some of them avoid masturbation successfully, too.

Now, if such teenagers can do it, and such adults do not, that tells you something. Something about lack of character, about their will, about their desire, about their power games or sadism and excuses, or about their perversion.

I do think that certain conditions in the Catholic priesthood are mind-bending, for certain people especially, and the pressures can be high, and people can be confused.

But I don't think you can explain things so easily as to say celibacy is the reason, and it seems to me frankly, that predators seek positions where they can take advantage, and they are good at lying and conning people, they pass unnoticed.

[heidler1]

24. It's all in the genes, but genes generally only prove susceptibility.

You wrote, "But I don't think you can explain things so easily as to say celibacy is the reason, and it seems to me frankly, that predators seek positions where they can take advantage, and they are good at lying and conning people, they pass unnoticed."

I wrote, "IMO part of the blame for the Catholic Priest's preying on alter boys goes to Paul's attitudes, that are in the Bible, about sex. Also IMO even with good intentions putting religious barriers up to prevent normal sex tends to cause people to resort to perverted sex. I'm sure that other things also cause perverted sex."

Please note that I said that PART of the blame was Paul's.

I really doubt that what we should consider normal sexual preference a black and white issue because many men and women like sex with both. The Bonobo's commonly like both. Dogs and even cattle are observed being ready to mount other than the opposite sex. You can train a BULL to like sex with a machine so you can collect sperm and artificially breed more cows than the old fashion way.

I suspect that it's a availability compromise at least some of the time.

I agree that those who are drawn into the Priesthood probably have a stronger desire for being pedophiles.

[carl_pwccaman]

23. Fundies have not enough of a Paul thing, on some things...

Few seem to understand Galatians 5, or 1 Cor 13.

[catbert836]

20. There's a well-developed theory

that Paul was a repressed homosexual. Now, I don't really know of any direct evidence for this claim, but it certainly would explain his attitudes about sex, his ultra-chauvanistic views of women, and why he always talked about what a terrible sinner he was. Will look for more info.

[trotsky]

21. I've heard that theory.

And it does seem to fit with the evidence.