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The Jesus Dynasty (A look at who Jesus really was)

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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:38 AM
Original message
The Jesus Dynasty (A look at who Jesus really was)
Edited on Thu Mar-09-06 10:51 AM by moobu2
This should be a fascinating book, cant wait to read it.

I’ve always been curious about who Jesus really was, not the Jesus taught in churches everywhere, you know, the myth that Paul help create, then Constantine and others helped elaborate on and so forth, but the real person. Not the made up character we’ve all come to know.

It should be interesting. Here's somewhat of a synopsis.

Based on a careful analysis of the earliest Christian documents and recent archeological discoveries, The Jesus Dynasty offers a bold new interpretation of the life of Jesus and the origins of Christianity.


In The Jesus Dynasty biblical scholar James Tabor brings us closer than ever to the historical Jesus. Jesus, as we know, was the son of Mary, a young woman who became pregnant before her marriage to a man named Joseph. The gospels tell us that Jesus had four brothers and two sisters, all of whom probably had a different father from him. He joined a messianic movement begun by his relative John the Baptizer, whom he regarded as his teacher and as a great prophet. John and Jesus together filled the roles of the Two Messiahs who were expected at the time, John as a priestly descendant of Aaron and Jesus as a royal descendant of David. Together they preached the coming of the Kingdom of God. Theirs was an apocalyptic movement that expected God to establish his kingdom on earth, as described by the prophets. The two messiahs lived in a time of turmoil as the historical land of Israel was dominated by the powerful Roman empire. Fierce Jewish rebellions against Rome occurred during Jesus's lifetime.


John and Jesus preached adherence to the Torah, or the Jewish Law. But their mission was changed dramatically when John was arrested and then killed. After a period of uncertainty, Jesus began preaching anew in Galilee and challenged the Roman authorities and their Jewish collaborators in Jerusalem. He appointed a Council of Twelve to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, among whom he included his four brothers. After he was crucified by the Romans, his brother James – the “Beloved Disciple” – took over leadership of the Jesus Dynasty.


James, like John and Jesus before him, saw himself as a faithful Jew. None of them believed that their movement was a new religion. It was Paul who transformed Jesus and his message through his ministry to the gentiles, breaking with James and the followers of Jesus in Jerusalem, preaching a message based on his own revelations that would become Christianity. Jesus became a figure whose humanity was obscured; John became merely a forerunner of Jesus; and James and the others were all but forgotten.


James Tabor has studied the earliest surviving documents of Christianity for more than thirty years and has participated in important archeological excavations in Israel. Drawing on this background, Tabor reconstructs for us the movement that sought the spiritual, social, and political redemption of the Jews, a movement led by one family. The Jesus Dynasty offers an alternative version of Christian origins, one that takes us closer than ever to Jesus and his family and followers. The story is surprising and controversial, but exciting as only a long-lost history can be when it is at last recovered.

The Jesus Dynasty
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. very cool
I don't know much about James Tabor but it sounds like he well versed(no pun intended) in the subject.

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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder if the Mary/Elizabeth connection is included.
Mary & Elizabeth were pregnant at the same time (Eliz.'s conception
was a few months earlier than Mary's). Elizabeth was
supposed to be barren, but God gave her a child... John the baptist.

With both women (I hesitate to use the phrase "claiming to be carrying") judged
to be carrying divine sons, it stands to reason that ministry would be the logical
career path for Jesus and John.

Don't flame me; I'm just regurgitating my own formal education here.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. That cousin-ship has always interested me
you wonder if they grew up together?

I also wonder if there is any historical references that mention his entrance into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday).

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. very way cool. Can you fix Mr. Link for us history buffs?
thanks!

So, mary was no virgin, jesus was no messiah, and his words were intended only for jews. I've read that in many other places, only to see the authors trashed and attacked for heretical, anti-christian, and devil-worshiping beliefs.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Fixed
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. A new twist, advancing the myth of a man who never existed.
Ho-hum.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. In your "opinion."
I'm looking forward to reading the results of thirty years of research.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Well said - LOL - for some "never existed Jesus" is dogma in their
Edited on Thu Mar-09-06 12:11 PM by papau
religion - but whatever floats their boat and doesn't bother me is fine with me!

But do not call their blind faith in their religion's dogma (the claim that their religion makes that Jesus never existed) a sign they have a religion, or they may get mad!

:toast:

:-)
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Do some research on the "historic" Jesus, then get back to me.
There's not a shred of "historic" evidence that the man existed while here's plenty of evidence that
all sections of the Jesus myth were lifted wholesale from already existing religions...not to mention
the misinterpretations of Biblical texts (like the misinterpreted "virgin" birth) that feed the
mythos in certain sects.



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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. This is a pretty inclusive link
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Quite a few shreds, actually. Nothing complete, from my readings.

Anybody who thinks they have the full low-down on the historical Jesus is kidding themselves, or every bit as delusional as any born-again tooth fairy believer.

so to speak...using DU lexicon
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. An excellent link to diverse-and varied - views on the historical evidence
Edited on Thu Mar-09-06 01:05 PM by papau
There is at least one book (since I own a copy) by the a similar title as the web site that has reproductions of "all" the documents of the Early Church from "zero" to about 150 - 200 AD - with translations ! The Virgina Seminary (Episcopal) was selling the book 25 years ago.

And I agree - nothing complete is out there.

Each little village had a "church" which had it's own memory of the earliest years - it is amazing that they all more or less agree so well!.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Personally
I am more impressed by the actual Gospels, some of which were written within a few decades of his death.

But now it is all "through a glass darkly" for sure!
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. As long as we're trading weblinks,
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

Also pretty inclusive. Not the final word, but...
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I can't get into it.
It opens but the screen stays blank.

I think I've been there before, though. Many interesting and valid points, in my opinion.

I did recently watch a DVD on the topic, from that point of view, but I'll be darned if I can remember the name of it.

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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Probably "The God Who Wasn't There"
I found that particular film not so effective. It took a pretty snarky tone. If you weren't predisposed to
its message I doubt if you'd watch past the first few minutes. Valid points were obscured by the
over-arching snarkiness.

That said, my 12-yr-old liked it alot. Outside of the Star Wars movies, it's the only
movie he's ever suggested we buy for our home library.

Here: http://www.thegodmovie.com/
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yep, that was it
I agree it was kind of smug, like "only idiots would believe this stuff" which goes a long way towards smashing any scholarly tone.

I have enormous respect for scholarly research, particularly that done over a period of years. A true scholar is open to any outcome.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. LOL...
Yeah I was thinking the same thing--new wine, old bottles, trendy label...

I guess Tabor, the Biblical scholar, found something the other million or so missed...
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. I look forward to reading this as well
do you think he used the gnostic gospels for his research as well?

I am sure that we humans have really skewed the story after 2K years. Look what happens when you play telephone with 10 people! (remember that old children's game?) 2K years must magnify the errors.

Thanks for posting this. I plan to order it.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. mel gibson's version is the real truth. just ask him and his followers nt
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Gibson's version is straight from the Gospels.
with a little added blood and gore. Actually, I don't know if it was "added" or not. I suppose scouring and crucifixion was pretty bloody. I just really didn't need to see every drop to "get the picture."
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Apparently much of Gibson's version
was lifted from records of "visions" of the crucifixion by a Romanian nun who lived in the 19th century. That's where most of the blood and gore came from.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. linky no workee
You'd be putting as much faith in this book's account as the bible's account.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Personally, I read them all
pros, cons, Bible... it is fascinating. I don't put "faith" in any one account.

My faith comes from inside, not a source.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
13. Ah, but what of the resurrection?
I mean, that is the central point of Christianity, no? What does the author say of that event?

In the end, you either believe in the resurrection or you don't. The rest is window dressing, IMHO.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Tabor claims that Jesus never
intended to start a new religion, which is a very “anti Christian” idea, if there ever was one. I’ve thought that for quite some time myself. The faith based Jesus we all know today was an invention of Paul (the Jesus character Mel Gibson portrayed in passion of the Christ for example).

Jesus thought of himself as a Jewish royal, directly descended from David and wanted to ascend the throne. He called himself “King of the Jews”. According to Dr. Tabor, Jesus was crucified for making that claim thus threatening the contemporary Jewish religious/ruling class and being a destabilizing force for the Roman occupation and so forth.

After Jesus was crucified, his brother took over his role as the King, after his brother was killed, the next brother assumed that position, and on and on down to the nephew of Jesus, hence the title of the book “The Jesus dynasty”. The resurrection myth was a much later invention


Dr. James Tabor isn’t towing the Christian line here at all.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. So the sect James led in Jerusalem was about restoring the Jesus Dynasty
Edited on Thu Mar-09-06 12:52 PM by papau
because that meant James would be King.

And Jesus called himself "King" and claimed a throne and was killed for this political act?

If that were the point of the book that would "interesting" - but it would also be a bunch of lies that demands you believe the early Christians/Apostles were all liars.

I look forward to reading the book if it ever makes it online or to my library or book store. Meanwhile here are a few thoughts by the author JD:

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/indexb.html

He seems to stick to the facts (facts that we all know -except for those who say Jesus did not exist and are assumed to not "know" these facts)
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I wonder how he deals with
"My kingdom is not of this world."

And the martyring of the apostles? My curiosity is killing me. When does it come out??
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Availability: This title will be released on April 4, 2006. (amazon.com)
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Tabor seems to stick to facts - Jesus never claimed to be the SON OF GOD
And Jesus was crucified for "making" the claim of "King of the Jews" - as IHS stands for on all the Crosses one sees - and thus threatening the contemporary Jewish religious/ruling class and being a destabilizing force for the Roman occupation and so forth.

But the "Jesus thought of himself as a Jewish royal, directly descended from David and wanted to ascend the throne" is at best very limted partial and misleading "truth" better thought of as pure speculation - not part of any "fact" that I am aware of.

I look forward to reading the book.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. "much later invention"?
I agree that it was invention, but Paul writes of it within "mere" decades of Christ's death, no?
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-09-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Oh, I just meant
Not contemporaneous to the life and death of Jesus etc.. Paul never met Jesus etc...


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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. 70 years after this Jesus died Paul invents a new story.
It is a great piece of fiction that millions love to believe as fact.
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