The War Against Islam

[catbert836]

I've been perusing other message boards like this one lately, and I've found a disturbing hatred of Islam and Muslims in many of them. This is what I'd expect from fundies posting on the board, but there are some liberals as well who have said that "Islam is a religion of hate" and other things like that. When the word "Islam" is mentioned, many of these "liberals" will shout about it exactly like the ultra-RW fundies. One of my freinds (an atheist, I might add) even suggested that Islam deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth because Muslims have a higher risk of being fundie terrorists. This is a person who has a general antipathy to all religion, but he thinks that Islam is somehow "worse" than, say Christianity. I think this represents a growing problem in our society. So, is there anyone who thinks they know why this happens? I look forward to responses.

[Vincardog]

1. You can not live in a racist society and not be affected

Blame the Whores running the propaganda machine

[forgethell]

2. It may

have something to do with terrorism. There is an awful lot of it in Muslim nations, for reasons that have nothing to do with Iraq.

Just a thought. Nobody is saying all Muslims are terrorists, but by far the overwhelming majority of terrorists in the world seem to be Muslims. Except maybe for some of the extreme Greens.




:think:

[Astarho]

4. I don't think so

but by far the overwhelming majority of terrorists in the world seem to be Muslims.

I think we just see more of it on our corporate media.

[catbert836]

6. That, and

the high level of poverty in many Muslim countries contributes to terrorism.

[Igel]

22. There are poorer countries with lower levels of terrorism.

One study, maybe lib, maybe conservative, found that terrorism overall had less to do with poverty (little correlation) and more to do with freedom. Absolute tyrannies didn't allow terrorism: you'd get caught, you and your family killed, before you'd get very far. Democracies muffle it: you kill lots of people, but you don't change minds, by and large, to get your way, because most people like the way it is, or at the very least most people don't seriously object.

The result that it was transitional societies that had terrorism isn't new, just newly analyzed. Most of the problems happen in societies where the lid's been taken off totalitarianism, or the screws are being tightened.

The correlation isn't absolute: people still blow up police stations and the like in spite of the fact that it's a fairly free society, either because they refuse to let their ethnicity be yoked with another (ETA), or they perceive things differently from the rest (McVeigh).

And people usually still need a belief system that licenses terrorism. Whether Islam and killing the infidels and Jews, or some form of communism where class warfare can be bloody (or fascism, where killing the dirty commies is perfectly fine).

[forgethell]

14. Well, then, do you

have some counter-examples that you thnik might compare with 9/11, or the slaughter of Jews in Israel. There's the Basques, the IRA, but they are clearly not in the same league as Hamas or al-qaeda, IMO.

[Solon]

20. Your right, the IRA, the Basques etc...

can't compare with Palenstinian nationalists, many of whom are Christian, nor with Al Queda, but the ones that have them all beat, yes including OBL, are the death squads of Central and South America. With our support, they have killed more people than any of the groups mentioned above, and they used the exact same tactics. So the only conclusion I can come to is that most terrorists in the world, by your definition, are Latino Catholics. Controversial enough for ya?

[Djinn]

29. how 'bout

the slaughter of Palestinians? you do know that the death toll for the intifada has 3 dead Palestinians for every one Israeli right??

9/11 killed 3000, Iraq's invasion many many more.

Do you beleive that state's can not be guilty of terrorism?

[Az]

5. Terror is relative

For a poor people individuals and secret groups are the tools of terror. For a rich nation tanks and armies are the tools of terror. Do you think a people watching a column of tanks enter their nation are not terrified?

[forgethell]

15. Terror is an emotion, bu

terrorism is an act, or series of acts, deliberately targeting innocent civilians. this is morally quite different from an army killing opposing soldiers.

[Dead_Parrot]

7. Only at the moment

Muslim terrorism has been making the news for the last few years, but before that most of the terrorism had nationalist roots - the IRA, ETA, the Tamil Tigers... Kashir and Palestine are 50/50 religion and nationalism (IMHO).

[Az]

8. Anywhere you look

There are poor individuals struggling for something they believe in. Not having the resources to wage "civiliized" warfare they turn to the tools they do have. An army is not going to be turned back by a bunch of rabble with sticks.

[Igel]

23. Let us not forget that the Muslim Brotherhood is as

surpremacist organization (with geographical restrictions) as they come: Arab Nationalism.

And most of the Islamists could be accused of Ummah-ism. The Ummah is oppressed, Arabia trodden by the Crusaders, yada-yada. Assuming they can actually say what they mean. But that really blurs the religion/nationalism line. The Ahmadiya are traitors to the Ummah.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. "appears"

I think one reason one hears so much about Muslim terrorists is because the media in this nation is bent on demonizing Islam. How much coverage have the white extremists in this nation been getting (I think there was one group uncovered in TX recently-only read about it here on DU)?

[Djinn]

28. really?

how many people have fundie muslim maddies killed in the last year - how many were slaughtered by US/UK and Aust Christians??

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. and what percentage of Muslims

make up your 'fundie muslim maddies'? The way many people talk, ALL Muslims are terrorists and should be round up and shot.

If one looks at the murder rates in UK/Australia, I'd say a goodly number of murders were Christians. And what about the IRA? Seems to me that in years past they have been known to do in quite a few people,including Lord Mountbatten.

Does this mean I condemn all Christians, or all Irish, because of the work of a few?

It has gotten to be very difficult to have any sort of interfaith dialog on the internet because of the hatred expressed against Muslims. And this is sad, because there ARE Muslim groups that are reaching out, trying to make a difference in this debate. But when moderate Muslim voices are drowned out by people condemning all Islam, it only makes the case for those radicals who would not have peace.

[Djinn]

37. there is a difference also

in terrorism/crime/violence committed by muslims and MUSLIM terrorism

When someone detonates a bomb with the aim of furthering the establishment of an Islamic state THAT is "muslim" terrorism if someone does something crimal for OTHER reason they just HAPPEN to be Muslim.

The resistance/insurgents in Iraq are NOT trying to establish a caliphate, Palestinians are not either (yes there are no doubt SOME Iraqi/Palestinians who would like that it is not the ultimate aim) and is no more Muslim/Islamic terrorism than McVeigh's bomb was Christian terrorism.

You also hear the "moderate muslims should speak out" line all the time - it doesn't matter that thousands of Imans and leaders within Muslim communities HAVE, people don't hear that (partly to do with there being no obvious "talking head" that represents the entire faith like the Pope/Archbishop) so they assume it hasn't happened.

The amount of ignorance towards Islam is astounding, and it's almost as high amongst "progressive" and intelligent groups of people.

[Az]

3. All religions become creations of humans

Thus they exhibit all the range of emotions humans are capable of.

Whether the impetus of a religion is a real mystical event or not the propogation of the claims are undertaken by humans. There does not seem to be a major religion existant today where the supreme godhead continues to announce exactly what it is up to.

Thus religion is in the care of humans. And humans make of it everything they can. Sometimes great. Sometimes horrendous.

[housewolf]

9. Well this may be a simplistic answer...

But even liberals are suject to being influenced by what is broadcast day in and day out on the media and if you pay attention there, you will notice that message pouring forth over the tv and radio airwaves and the cable lines.

Most Americans were pretty ignorant about Muslims and Islam until the past few years. Most know little to nothing about the teachings of Islam. It takes an interest, time and energy to educate oneself about an unfamiliar field of knowledge. I suspect few Americans have made much of an effort to learn about Islam and its followers. I suspect that whay most Americans know is what has been presented to them by tv, radio and, to a much lesser extent, the print media.

The current administration has not helped to educate the nation either, with their presentation of Islamacists.

Add to that the fact that it is human nature to find an enemy and demonize it. Islam has replaced commumism in that respect in American society.

I think a massive educational program is in order, but I doubt that there would be the will within this administration to do it. It is more in their interest to foster fear by misleading than to teach the truth.

I realize that I am just pointing the finger here, there and everywhere... but that's the way I see it, as a product of naive ignorance, lack of education, deliberate demonization and fear-mongering.

[Az]

10. I have debated many Islamic individuals and groups

And I have come away with the impression that they have the same range of reactions as any other large religion. There are those that exemplify the loving and caring aspects of the doctrine and there are those that are a bit more jumpy.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. Ignorance breeds hatred

Islam, which means surrender to God, and comes from the world 'peace', is not well known or understood in this country. So many people's knowledge of the religion is based on what they have seen from the terrorist's rantings.

My comment to those DUers here who make comments like you quote is this: what if the only thing you really knew about Christianity was Jim Jones? The only texts you have were the writings of someone like Bob Dobson, and the only translation of the Bible was from Jerry Falwell?

Most Muslims I know are very kind, generous people. I feel instantly at home when I am among Muslims, and not just Sufis. There are always exceptions to any generalizations, and I have met a few Muslims who were SOBs. But you can say this about any group of people.

[Az]

13. I have to concurr

And much of my exposure to them has been as an adversary(debates). Once our dialogs are set aside the people I have met have been perfectly decent individuals.

[forgethell]

16. I've been told that

G*B also has considerable personal charm. does that mean we should set aside our "dialogue" with him?

[Az]

17. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear

Aside from our debates about the nature of the universe they seemed to present no particular threat as a group. Their views politique were each their own. Some were conservative (whom I disagreed with) and other were liberal (whom I often did agree with).

We are not discussing whether we agree with Muslems on all things great and small. We are discussing the perception that they are an irrational bent on destroying Americans and infidels. I am both an American and an active infidels and I have dealt openly and pleasantly with Muslems. I am sure there are individuals and groups within the Muslem community that would like individuals like me silenced. But then George Bush Sr is noted for having said he doesn't think a person like me deserves to be a citizen. Thus I cannot place the blame for intolerance and hatred held by some Muslems on their faith alone.

[forgethell]

18. I too

have known Muslims. In fact, in grad school, I had two Muslim office mates along with a Hindu. They were fine enough as individuals.

Let me make mysllef clear. I don't believe all, or even most, Muslims are hell-bent on destroying America. However, enough of them are to be a threat to us all.

Their religion requires that they convert, by the seord if necessary, the earth to the worship of Allah. I'm sure that some of them take this more seriously than others.

But my original comment concerned why there seems to be soome anti-Islamic sentiment arising in the world. I don't think it's becasue of their religion. I think it's because of terrorism. Unfair to peaceful Muslims, perhaps. but that is the reason, as I see it.

As this does not seem to me to be an anti-Islamic statement, but only the statement of my opinion as to the reason for the observed sentiment, I hope that we can agree on it.

[Az]

19. That would be others perception of Islam

And on that I agree with you. Much like the religious right is seen by many as the active aspect of Christianity the terrorist branches of Islam create a problem for the more open minded followers of Islam.

Such discussions can be tricky. The semantics can make quite a difference. Its good to clear them up.

[Djinn]

30. try educating yourself

Their religion requires that they convert, by the seord if necessary, the earth to the worship of Allah. I'm sure that some of them take this more seriously than others.

actually the Koran expressly forbids forced or coerced conversion:

"Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (II:62). The Koran likewise speaks favorably of the "churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered."(XXII:40)

Second, all prophets are to be respected -- including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed: "We do not make any distinction between them." (II:136) "We make no difference between any of His apostles." (II:285) "Every one was of the good." (VI:85) "The Messiah, son of Mary is but an apostle" (V:73), yet God "put in the hearts of those who follow him kindness and mercy." (LVII:27) The Torah "in which there was guidance and light" is considered part "of the Book of Allah" (V:70), and so are the Bible and Koran (IX: 111).

"There is no compulsion in religion." (II:256) "You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (CIX: 6) "Be not unduly immoderate in your religion." (V:73)

true there aer passges that seem to contradict this but have you ever readthe Bible?, that's the problem with books written and re-written thousands of years ago and translated over and over again. do you know how many Christians beleive it's there duty to convert?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. don't know where you got your information on converting,

but it wasn't from any Sufi I know. Sufis don't proslytize. In fact, in my order, we honor ALL forms of religion in a Universal Worship Service. All messengers are honored in our daily prayers. I have never seen a Sufi, of whatever order, try to 'convert' someone to Islam or to Sufism.

So I guess what I'm saying is that Islam, like Christianity, has different sects and viewpoints, and they are not all the same.

[Igel]

24. We have different experiences.

I place Muslims that I've known into three categories.

1. Reasonable people. Regardless of flavor of Islam (but usually Sufi or not very observant). Not always nice, but with the same percentage of jerks as any other group. I suspect I've known Muslims in this category without knowing they were Muslim.

2. Caught up in ME squabbles and ethnic feuds. Me, a Xian Irish-American (who was sabbath-keeping in my undergrad days), one prof called a Jew and denied me a makeup exam (exam was scheduled for saturday). Others got one when they asked. I got one to, but first the provost had to kick his ass, but good.

3. Insufferable. It's all about their religion (or ethnicity, or both). No slight goes unnoticed, no wrong is too mild, and no setback too trivial to be anything less than a direct offense against the Allah and his people. This is, of course, an exaggeration in most cases: but the commonality is that they're convinced we non-Muslims are out to get them, no setback is their fault, and nothing we do that works against them is unintentional.

Invariably every one in (3) was in the Muslim Students Association.

[Selwynn]

27. Replace the word "Muslim" with "Christian" and it'd be exactly the same

[Igel]

34. I've met some sensitive Christians,

but nothing to come close to the attitude some of some MSA Muslims.

There was one (we served on a student committee together, food provided) that refused to so much as drink a glass of water sitting at table with us "racists", who presumed to expect him to let us know ahead of time that he'd miss each meeting for Friday prayers.

His attitude: We all knew that we were to be at prayers on Friday, and the only reason we had scheduled the meetings when we did was to be an affront to Allah and cause him to sin. He overlooked that the time of the meetings was suggested *before* he was appointed to the committee (it had been Friday afternoons for decades), and the meeting schedule was on the agenda to be approved *after* he was appointed. Fortunately, the university and the professors also hated Islam by actually requiring that he attend classes and do the work; he failed out in short order.

(Then there was one guy who insisted that all the people on a committee I chaired, and me in particular, were anti-Muslim bigots because we didn't appoint him. He yelled at me for 5 minutes by phone--me, turning the other cheek--before he finally asked what Christian we had appointed. The rest of the phone call lasted 5 seconds: I said "your brother" . Then he slammed down the phone.)

In 45 years, I've never met a Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, or atheist that weren't just sensitive, but openly hostile before I was even able to say a word. (The closest was a student in a co-ed dorm who lectured me on the blatant racism of describing the day that Lennon was killed as a "black day"; it was, actually, the day Lennon was killed.)

I don't think that Xianity as a whole is waging war on Islam. I believe that some varieties of Islam are waging war on Xianity (etc.--it's not like Xianity sticks out especially in this regard). Any time I see Americans generically referred to as Crusaders, I put that in the same category as "anglo", kike, fag, and other kinds of hate speech.

[Selwynn]

35. Well, you've apparently been much more sheltered than I.

"In 45 years, I've never met a Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, or atheist that weren't just sensitive, but openly hostile before I was even able to say a word."

Don't know where you're living, or why your experiences are so vastly different than mine, but I've met as many openly hostile professing Christians as have Muslims, in fact more.

[Selwynn]

36. Follow up-

Perhaps "sheltered" is the wrong word. My intention is not to be inflammatory - its been a long day. I just mean that my experiences are different. I haven't seen the striking contrasts between professing christians and practicing muslims that you have seen. Either one of us could have our perspectives skewed by our own context, obviously.

[Igel]

38. Baltimore, MD; Hoboken, NJ; Newark, DE; Eugene, OR:

Los Angeles, CA; Rochester, NY.

Sometimes I think I'm trying to see how many states I can rack up.

Most favorite: Eugene. Least favorite ... snow.

And I get out seldom in Houston.

[Selwynn]

39. Like I said in follow up -- I misspoke.

Please read that.
Thanks,
Sel

[Igel]

40. Sorry.

I didn't see your followup.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. I think anti-Muslim feeling is due partly to the rise in the number of

Muslim immigrants.

Seeing mosques going up in their neighborhoods or seeing women in hijab in the store arouses xenophobia among people who are prone to such feelings. It's the same type of thing that always happens when a new immigrant group with a culture sharply different from that of the mainstream moves in.

Add all the hype about terrorism to the mix, and you have a recipe for anti-Islamic bigotry.

[Djinn]

31. i agree

as well as the fear and loathing engendered by our wonderful leaders immigration and the increasin visibility of muslims in western countries probably amps up the bigotry.

In the 1950's/60's racism in AUstralia was generally concerned with "wogs" the Italian/Greek/Macedonian and Maltese immigrants who came following the war.

By the eighties the "wogs" were so ingrained that no-one really cared about them, instead they worried about the "ghettos" all the asian migrants were establishing, how they "never" learnt english blah blah blah

Then a decade later you'd hear "the asians were alright thety came to work hard and give their kids a better life, but these Mooslims..."

I always wonder who the next group will be and how long it'll be before I hear, "The Iraqi's and Afghans were just escaping fear and they'd every right to be here...but these XXX's just wanna bludge.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. I think some liberals go to far in defending Islam

but that that is better than the alternative. I like fundamentalist Islam even less than I like fundamentalist conservative Christianity, and an even higher proportion of muslims than christians are fundamentalist.

However, there are good and bad reasons for disapproving of Islam, and there are far more people who disapprove of it for the bad ones than the good.

There are 1.5 x 10 ^ 9 Muslims in the world. Even if there were one hundred and fifty thousand muslime terrorists, that would still only be one percent of one percent (disclaimer: I may well be out by a power of ten here), and the real number is probably less than that, depending on how it's defined. Yelling "terrorism" is a useful alternative to thinking, but not a good reason to condemn a religion, and *certainly* not a reason to condemn the adherents of that religion.

I think that most muslim teaching on women's rights, gay rights, punishment of crime, abortion and so on is mistaken ( I know there are liberal muslims, but they're a small minority, and I get the impression that they have less scriptural backing), but I think that many people are even more anti-Islam than those issues justify, and that they go from being anti-islam to being anti-muslim. I would be furious if someone held the fact that I was a liberal against me in any non-political context, and I think muslims would have every right to be if I held their religion against them in any context except one where it is strictly relevant.

Many people don't share this scruple, unfortunately.

[Selwynn]

26. It is just rampant ignorance, effecting even otherwise good people

My dad is such a wonderful man ... that's why it hurts my heart so much when he has so prejudicial attitudes towards muslim and Islam. Virtually every belief my dad has on the subject is based on fear, myth and stereotype.

It happens because of fear of the unknown. We've been hurt in the "name" of something we don't understand and seems utterly foreign to us, culturally speaking. That breeds a lot of distrust and even demonization. The reasons for it are really little different than the reasons for prejudice and bigotry anywhere - lack of empathy and lots of ignorance mixed with a little fear and anxiety for good measure - that's the recipe for prejudice.