Are there atheists here who actually feel they're oppressed in America?

[DerekG]

In my four years here, I've read many accounts about atheists/agnostics who feel not only ostracized, but oppressed in America.

Forgive me, but when I think of victims of oppression, I conjure up images of those dejected souls on Indian reservations, the impoverished people in the ghettos (abandoned to torment and death in New Orleans), and the men and women who are subjected to sexual abuse in our prison-industrial complex.

Shouldn't we keep some perspective, here? I know atheists and agnostics are on the fringe, but what indignities do you guys suffer?

Should Amnesty International be involved here?

[ck4829]

1. Not an Atheist (Muslim), and I do think that Atheists are disadvantaged

There are still State Constitutions which forbid from running for political office.

[merwin]

9. Which state constitiutions prevent athiests from running?

That's against the country's constitution

[ck4829]

20. Here's something on it

http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm

[merwin]

57. That is seriously fucked up.

[tx_dem41]

63. It's a MOOT point. SCOTUS ruled in Torcaso v. Watkins (1961)...

that a state can't bar an Atheist from public office.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=367&invol=488


You can conjure up all the victimization you want. I, as an Atheist, won't participate.

BTW...this took one minute to google.

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. But people have had to go to court since then to get it enforced

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/silverman.htm

A decision in the South Carolina Supreme Court 4 years after the case started.

[beam me up scottie]

64. Not just excluded by laws, check this out:

A recent study on race and religion on race, religion intolerance and prejudice reports:

When questioned about what religious or nonreligious group doesn’t share their vision of American society, survey participants indicated that atheists — with 54 percent — provided the greatest threat, Hartmann said. Survey participants said Muslims create the second-highest threat.

“This result shows that religion is deeply intertwined with conceptions of American society,” he said. “The absence of faith, the belief in a higher being seems to be a major barrier between people in our society.”

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2004/04/27/9453#repeat

[Kolesar]

2. "atheists and agnostics are on the fringe"... better explain that one

Let's presume this isn't a flamebait thread.

[Taxloss]

12. "Well, you may get treated differently, but you ARE a minority ..." n/t

[Kolesar]

17. Counter culture?

[MalachiConstant]

36. are you quoting somebody else?

or is that your statement?

[Taxloss]

49. That was my statement.

I was attempting to de-eupemise the OP's "fringe" comment.

[DerekG]

19. Atheists and agnostics are a minority; that's what a fringe is.

Mind you, I don't care what a person believes or doesn't. This thread is concerned with slings and arrows.

[Kolesar]

23. Like redheads ... eom

[trotsky]

82. Slings and arrows, eh?

And you took it upon yourself to start firing.

[beam me up scottie]

3. Define oppressed.

nt

[DerekG]

13. I'll use the American Heritage Dictionary

oppress v. 1. To burden harshly, unjustly, or tyrannically. 2. To weigh heavily upon the mind or spirit.

[beam me up scottie]

21. To burden unjustly.

Yep.

[DerekG]

44. How?

I'd like to know (if this was serious, you could PM me).

[beam me up scottie]

47. Please.

Read the replies on this thread.

Your attempt to portray DU atheists as whiny martyrs is duly noted.

[kestrel91316]

53. I don't know about the atheist part, but

I certainly feel oppressed as a SINGLE PERSON, rather than part of a "sacred" FAMILY. I am sick unto death of this "family values" crap, which is a slap in the face and an implication that single folks DON'T have values.

I am not a Protestant fundamentalist, so I feel in the past 5 years that I have become part of an UNWANTED minority, but I know for a fact that the Christofascists are in the minority (they are just trying to force their views on the rest of us).

[LoKnLoD]

4. Well I just keep my mouth shut about it

I live in Utah and they would probably tar and feather me if I said I don't believe in the God Fairy tale.

[DemInDistress]

5. I don't believe Jesus was a Deity does that make me

an atheist? No I have not suffered any flack except from freepers whom
I argue with all the time.If Jesus was truly a God he would have smitten those Romans.Jesus died for my sins {lol} and the sins of mankind {lol}.Was God behind the Big Bang ? I can go for that....

[dogman]

6. I could not be elected to any high office.

But I wasn't planning on it anyway.

[Taxloss]

7. Atheists are barred from public office in several states.

You'll have to ask an American poster which ones, but I think that's shocking discrimination. The fact that God is on the money and in the pledge and oath is not exactly separate water fountains, but it is deeply exclusionary.

[asthmaticeog]

15. Your quest, young Hobbitt, begins in Tennessee.

:hi:

[Taxloss]

25. Thanks, Gandalf!

:hi:

[Ian David]

8. Absolutely YES! I don't have time to go into it right now. But...

The question isn't, "Are they rounding you up into concentration camps. The question is, would they if they could."

I'm summarizing a quote from somewhere or other.

[bahrbearian]

34. The anwser is , Hell yes!

[lizerdbits]

10. I certainly don't feel oppressed

Sure I'm annoyed by the fundies and their school prayer and ID pushes but that definitely isn't oppression. Most religious people I know don't want the fundies to succeed either. Oppression would be being threatened to be fired, denied the ability to run for some office if I wanted to or being prohibited from doing something because of my lack of belief. I have never experienced this.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Do you doubt that others have experienced it?

Or that you can be prevented from holding public office because you're an atheist?

[lizerdbits]

40. Not at all

I've never tried to run for an office so I couldn't have experienced it. Even if theism isn't a written requirement if you said you were atheist/agnostic you would never win. I was just talking about my personal experience, not that I think it never happens.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Actually, several states have such requirements written into their

constitutions.

[lizerdbits]

43. That's very scary

And certainly is oppression.

[beam me up scottie]

45. Yeah, before I came out of the "atheist" closet,

that fact totally blew me away.

It's one of the reasons (along with the current administration's efforts to turn this into a theocracy) why I did come out.

[lizerdbits]

51. I guess I'm lucky I didn't have to "come out"

to my immediate family. My parents describe themselves as Catholic school survivors and never took my sister and I to church. We did Christmas but it was mostly santa-oriented although they always had a manger scene. I guess the best description would be agnostic for them (or maybe Diests) although their siblings and parents are fairly religious. I only see the relatives about once a year and I just never 'go there' while visiting.

[beam me up scottie]

55. I never had to tell my family, they aren't christian.

It's more of a decision to change the stereotype by not avoiding confrontation when the subject of religion was brought up.

One coworker, who was fairly well educated and traveled, loudly proclaimed to another employee that the only atheists he had ever met thought that they were god.

It was a real pleasure to tell him. :evilgrin:

[asthmaticeog]

11. Um, just because it's not as bad as the worst oppression ever

doesn't mean it's not oppression. Try professing atheism and running for office. Or a judgeship. Only recently did some states let atheists testify in court.

[lizerdbits]

22. Atheist weren't allowed to testify?

Damn, I had no idea. That's certainly edging towards oppression.

[asthmaticeog]

28. Edging towards? That's FULL-BORE disenfranchisement from the legal system.

Imagine being forbidden from swearing in - and you're the defendant.

[lizerdbits]

42. In that case oppression would be the only word for it. n/t

[Kolesar]

14. I'll turn this back on you-what do Christians mean when they say "freedom"

They always talk about that they don't have freedom.

[DerekG]

37. Your guess is as good as mine

The Christian reactionaries are certifiable.

[Kolesar]

39. Apparently, they feel oppressed .... eom

[vi5]

16. I've never heard us referred to as "oppressed"...

As usual with these "some people say" type threads, if you could point to a link that would be helpful rather than just throwing vague bombs out there.

And if someone did use that term it would be fucking stupid because true oprression is poverty, is discrimitation, is being totally fucking destitute because of something you are powerless to change.

That being said I would say beyond the shadow of a doubt that atheists are completely and 100% marginalized. Other than maybe the ACLU there are no major groups or organizations looking out for atheists. Even dems fall all over themselves to show how god fearing they are.

[melody]

18. trolling today, Derek?

There are all kinds of prejudice. Some of it is small but cumulative and amounts over time.

>atheists and agnostics are on the fringe

No, we're not. I'm an agnostic - I admire you theists and atheists who've managed to figure out the huge confusing puzzle of reality. Really, my hat's off to you. I can't even figure out whether we should renovate or buy a new house. Decoding the secrets of the universe? Well, like I said, I'm amazed.

I think we're (agnostics) actually the majority who suffer in silence from the loud-mouthed Alpha primates trying to bully others with their belief systems. Yes, agnostics and atheists are oppressed, actively and subjectively, in my experience, but then so are Muslims, Buddhists, free-thinking Christians - in essence, anyone who isn't one with the Christofascist mob, to say nothing of the much smaller but still vocal materialist absolutists (boy, what a day for ists).

[catnhatnh]

24. Wrong song dude...

...I am an atheist...not in any classicist mode that requires me to disprove or denigrate a god,but rather in the sense that I am simply not convinced of anything...As such I do indeed feel oppressed and highly so by all persons holding office who feel a need to profess and adhere to a belief system past "mere" rationality.....These people are on the scene and already cozening up to their old testament god...Would you feel oppressed if part of your ruling class declared devotion to precepts expressed in Mein Kamph or the Little Red Book.....OK...how about if the book was instead,to you,as apropos as a text by Theodore Geisel???

[Zenlitened]

26. Nope, everything's peachy...

...as long as we can point to someone else who has things worse.

:eyes:

[DerekG]

52. A lot worse.

I mean, I'm sure the socialites in Manhatten are slaves to fashion, but their situation isn't exactly comparable to the 4 million women and children who are used as sex slaves.

[Zenlitened]

59. That's some analogy. I mean, you even used the same word...

... in both sentences. Yer doin' a heck of a job!

:rofl:

[DerekG]

62. Thanks, I tried. Now get off the floor, and tell me your tale of woe

n/t

[beam me up scottie]

61. And you wanted me to PM you with my personal experiences?

So that you could use them in false analogies like that?

Trust me, you don't want me to send you a pm right now.

Or ever, actually.

[beam me up scottie]

27. " I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens,

nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

[Zenlitened]

33. Oh, but that's ancient history, isn't it? I mean, no one would say...

... such an ignorant thing here in our own time, would they?



:sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

35. No, of course not.

Don't be silly.

People are much too intelligent, educated and enlightened in this day and age.

I mean, it's not like history didn't teach us anything.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. A co-worker of mine once opined

That atheists should leave the country because it says "In God We Trust" on the money. Now I wouldn't say I'm oppressed as an atheist in a country full of people like her, but I do find the stupidity intolerable at times....

[stillcool]

30. Oh....we should wait...

until the theocracy manifests into physical retribution...for perspective.

[Kolesar]

32. When does the Steelers - Browns game start tonight?

[beam me up scottie]

38. Is the point of this to enforce your opinion based on narrow experiences

or to actually learn something?

[DerekG]

46. See #44

If you were/are on the receiving end of some *serious* bigotry, I would like to know. (Again, PM me if this was traumatic and you feel uncomfortable.)

[beam me up scottie]

48. This thread is flame bait.

You attempted to frame the debate by using your own narrow definition of what you think constitutes *serious* bigotry.

I've only been here just over a year and I'm sick of seeing this tactic.

[Bill McBlueState]

83. PM you?

Who on earth is going to PM you with a personal story, given the tone you've taken toward atheists in this thread? You'll just find a way to use it against us.

[Seansky]

50. You must be kidding, or are living in a very liberal area, for even

doubting that...

Believe, unless I know who I am talking to, I don't say that I am one...Not even to my mother and siblings, who happen to be Catholics...

Being Latina, I don't even there bring up to the public yet another reason to be outcasted...couldn't imagine what it would be like if I also were lesbian...

So, seems to me you might have little understanding of what you are talking about...

[ochazuke]

54. Answer: Ostracism

These days, I think it's worse than what people in wheelchairs suffer, but short of a lynching.


(at least until I posted this :) )

[beam me up scottie]

56. NOW you did it!

:evilgrin:

I live in the buy-bull belt, we're lower than even the French.

[Spinzonner]

58. Oh my God, yes

:-)

[tx_dem41]

60. Sorry. I'm an Atheist, and I'm not playing the victimization game. n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

66. When I was an atheist, I wasn't oppressed, but then I was also very young

so that might have had something to do with it. But still, my two best friends in junior high were a non-denominational Christian and a practicing Catholic. Even though I never stopped bothering them with questions about religion, they didn't stop being my friends or anything. I made no secret of the fact that I was an atheist for as long as I was one, and I was never on the receiving end of negative treatment for my atheism.

[WhollyHeretic]

67. I don't see the point of this thread since it's clear you've already

decided and don't even consider what anyone responds with. If I was a cynic I would say that you just started this thread to insult atheists but I'm sure that couldn't be...

[beam me up scottie]

68. I think the op needs to take the MB challenge.

Wear a t-shirt proclaiming that you are an atheist for a weekend.

Preferably in a red state.

Funny how none of these guys ever took her up on it.

[WhollyHeretic]

69. That wouldn't even give the full experience, for me the biggest problems

I've had are work related or being a parent. You are evil incarnate if you have a child and are an atheist, corrupting that child's mind with all that reason and science.

[beam me up scottie]

70. This is true.

But don't forget those of us living in KKK country.

Half the time I'm expecting to look out the window and see the villagers headed up the hill with torches.

These people really believe we're responsible for killing god in Amerikkka.

I mean if the worst thing they can think of to call you is a godless liberal, what does that tell you?

[WhollyHeretic]

71. I feel for you, I've lived in the south and in the mid-west and will never

do so again. I'm an atheist of jewish descent which puts just about on par with satan in some places.

If the fundies come for you with torches just take a cue from The Life of Brian and claim you're the messiah:

Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, fuck off!

Arthur: How shall we fuck off, O Lord?

I just got that on DVD today, I just finished watching it.

[beam me up scottie]

72. I LOVE Life of Brian!

Matthias: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah".
(Everyone gasps)

Jewish Official: You're only making it worse for yourself!

Matthias: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!

Jewish Official: I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock)

RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?

Stoners: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!

Jewish Official: Was it you?

Stoner: Yes.

Jewish Official: Right...

Stoner: Well you did say "Jehovah. "
(Crowd throws rocks at the stoner)

Jewish Official: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah. "
(Crowd stones the Jewish Official to death)

:rofl:

[WhollyHeretic]

73. That's a great scene. At the video store today they had a special

edition of Life of Brian but it was $35 and I'm broke. However I was able to get used copies of Life of Brian and Evil Dead for $13 total.

[beam me up scottie]

74. An Evil Dead fan, too?

I wonder how much our taste in movies has to do with being atheists?

I gave up on the local video stores a long time ago.

The managers at two of them never even heard of Re-animator.

[WhollyHeretic]

75. Hmmm, could be, I've actually thought about that before

A number of my friends who are atheists have similar tastes in movies. Though I do have one good friend who is an atheist who will not watch horror movies at all.

Do you like MST3K? (Mystery Science Theater 3000)

[beam me up scottie]

76. Like ?

I was so severely addicted to it that when I moved out in the boondocks and didn't have cable, I had my best friend record it for me.

[WhollyHeretic]

77. I had a feeling you were a fan

A lot of times after watching an episode I am physically sore from laughing so much. A new DVD collection just came out this week, they are so expensive though.

[beam me up scottie]

78. Ever mess around with Bittorent?

I don't download movies but I do like to snatch old episodes of MST3K.

I don't do tv so I get most of my entertainment from the net.

[WhollyHeretic]

79. No, until very recently I had been on dial-up

I do have about 8 episodes on dvd. I had one collection of DVDs and a friend of mine just gave me a few single DVDs when she moved away.

OK, I've got to get up in less than 6 hours. I feel bad that we got off on a tangent and distracted from the honest discussion that the OP wanted to have :eyes:

Goodnight

[beam me up scottie]

80. Yeah, kind of ruined that whole red herring thingy...

Goodnight.

Ps check us out at Neural Gourmet.

I'd love to hear more of your fav shows and movies, it's very possible I'm missing out.

[trotsky]

81. Right, because as Democrats we should only be concerned about

SOME groups being marginalized. :eyes:

Some states have constitutional prohibitions against atheists running for higher office or serving on juries.

Surveys consistently show more people would rather vote for virtually any other type of group - even homosexuals - than atheists.

And good old George Herbert Herbert Bush even said that we shouldn't be considered patriots or even citizens.

Really though, that's spoken like someone who truly has no ability to think about what it must be like in someone else's shoes. Most Christians (and I do mean MOST), when they hear the word "atheist" immediately think "EVIL." Try "coming out" when you were brought up in a religious family. Atheists have to hide their lack of faith in workplace settings, from landlords, even sometimes in their own social circles, because CHRISTIANS prejudge them.

So anyway, thanks for the bash and the flamebait thread. I'm sure Jesus would approve.

[SteppingRazor]

84. Locking

flamebait