Do you believe in an afterlife?

[benburch]

I don't. I believe that death ends everything.

What say you?

[porphyrian]

1. I firmly believe in afterbirth, however. - n/t

[Fridays Child]

193. It's what's for dinner...

We're havin' lasagna, placenta lasagna...

snippety snippers

Then comes the practice of placentophagia, eating the placenta, is also practiced in some parts of the world. There are even meal like recipes for cooking placentas, including placenta stew, placenta lasagna, power drinks with blended placenta and others. Though some mothers have been reported to eat placenta raw.

There are many reasons listed for eating the placenta, including it helping stem postpartum depression and it supposedly helps to contract the uterus after the birth. We know that many animals eat their own placenta, including as a means to hide the scent from predators.

In our modern world this may seem barbaric and some have even said that this could spread HIV/AIDS or Hepatitis. While this is very true if people other than the mother consume the placenta, normally it is only the mother partaking of the placenta.

[99Pancakes]

2. How does life seem to you?

Doesn't your life seem empty with that belief? Maybe you can elaborate.

[benburch]

7. Not empty at all!

Makes me want to live every day I have and take joy in it.

[damntexdem]

11. Wishing doesn't make things so.

Should we adopt beliefs not because we think they're true but solely because they make life seem 'less empty'?

I'd certainly prefer that there is an afterlife, but I just don't know. As Michael Shermer used to respond when asked about his position on the afterlife: "I'm in favor of it."

[Ladyhawk]

148. Beware of that which you want to believe. n/t

[heidler1]

26. I've had a full life without believing in myths.

Of course if you grow up believing in some God's promise of eternal life, then the thought of losing eternal life would be troubling. The question is: are say Buddhists who IMO do not believe in life eternal happier or less happy than say a Christian who does believe in life eternal. I'd bet the Buddists are more happy because Nirvana is provable.

[Qibing Zero]

29. No, but I think it would seem empty if I forced that kind of belief.

I sometimes wonder if this is the real reason religion is so prominent. Do people really need this feeling so they can go on with their daily lives?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. Human beings

are the only species who ponder about their impending death. (or at least the other species haven't mentioned it yet)

I am conflicted as to whether belief in an afterlife is a genetic programmed kind of thing that we just sense or "know" because it is real, or a result of knowing we will die.

I am very interested in NDE's, however. Are they a glimpse into something else?

[Greyhound]

136. I believe it must be cultural as I appear to be

of very good genetic stock and have had 2 NDE's, but still have no urge to believe in an afterlife, at least as the various religions describe it. I was born into the Greek Orthodox Church (got kicked 'cause I asked too many questions), looked at the Roman's, Episcopalians, and Unitarians, none of them took either. I think the Wiccan's might be on to something, but the anthropomorphism doesn't make any sense to me.
I do think it was an outcome of our fore-knowledge of our inevitable demise.

[Dem Agog]

62. "Religion is the opiate of the masses"

You ask: Do people really need this feeling so they can go on with their daily lives?

Answer? ABSOLUTELY!

Religion was borne out of a crisis of self-awareness. We're the only creatures on this earth that are aware that we will not go every day like the one before it.

We are the only creatures who know we will die. Your dog has no clue. Your cat has no clue. The bird out your window has no clue.

How do you cope with that?

For many people, it's religion. As I wrote in another post here, I believe that western religion is an attempt to market spirituality in nice, plastic packaging that's palatable to everyone: infants, toddlers, adults... The less people think and just accept their pretty package of spirituality the more viable the product is.

The problem comes when people start introducing logic into the equation. Those people (like me, I was baptized in a Christian church at 10, but I am not religious) sometimes step back and then realize that they weren't sold the "real thing".

I believe that reality is that there is no afterlife. I believe that spirituality, and working to be a better person and to connect with the world and our universe is the only legitimate "divinity" out there. Everything else in the US at least, is as marketed and marked up for profit as McDonalds happy meals.

[dannofoot]

107. My dog has no clue?

You deign to speak for my dog? For all cats and birds as well? Somewhat presumptuous, IMHO.

I believe that every being knows, inately, that it is made up of swirling atoms held together by the energy of belief in its corporeal form. How it integrates its perception of that condition varies greatly...

...but in the end, we are all just energy. And energy doesn't go away; laws of thermodynamics teach us that. It changes, but it does not stop.

Neither do we.

[Qibing Zero]

119. Correct - we go on forever.

Our consciousness, on the other hand, most likely does not. :D

[grannylib]

178. Cheap consumer goods are the opiate of the masses, at least these days

Facism is pretty effective in its way...
scary and wrong and horrific, but effective...

[Zenlitened]

197. "... working to be a better person and to connect with the world..."

...working to be a better person and to connect with the world and our universe is the only legitimate "divinity" out there.

Well said. :)

[400Years]

41. why would it seem empty?

It is more full if you actually have the desire to live this life to the fullest instead of waiting for some glorius afterlife that doesn't exist.

[99Pancakes]

57. I'm not "waiting"

You assume I live a wretched life and wait for glory like the typical Christian. My life is full and happy. It is richer knowing that "existence" (IMHO) has many levels, even after we pass on. I am not a church-goer folllowing any gospel.

Just my take on things.

[soothsayer]

63. Exactly! Life without death would have no meaning whatsoever.

Immortals never need to question what their lives are for.

[NYC Liberal]

47. My life is just perfectly fine.

I don't believe things because I want them to be true, as you seem to. I don't believe in Zeus or Poseidon or Neptune, nor do I believe in the realm of Hades or the Elysian Fields and my life isn't empty without THOSE.

[Dem Agog]

59. Why would it make life seem empty?

I would like to believe in an afterlife, because I think it does make our existence an easier one to bear. But there's no way my logical mind buys it.

Regardless, it doesn't make my life seem "empty". I don't need a religious figure to make me feel happy, or "full", just as I don't need a religious organization and/or a set of "commandments" to teach me how to behave like a decent human being.

As a person who sees no evidence of an afterlife, I am still spiritually connected to this world. I believe in spirituality and in a more holistic view of the world around us. To me, religion is an attempt to wrap spirituality up in a plastic, easily marketable package. It might as well have "Made in China" stamped on it.

I live every day to its fullest, aware that my life is short and finite, but intending to make my mark in every way. I don't need to believe in a heaven or a hell for that, although I realize that some people do need an intricate framework of "afterlife" beliefs, just so they can wake up in the morning. It helps them get by.

I'm just not one of those people.

[Finder]

125. Rather be empty than full of it...

is the answer I give when I get the "Empty" question.

[Flying Dream Blues]

3. With all due respect to everyone's beliefs, for me there is no question

that we continue to live.

[welshTerrier2]

9. continue to live?

some apparently even continue to vote !!

[damntexdem]

14. In the hope that their votes will continue to be counted ...

or in some states, that they will once again be counted.

[SidDithers]

49. With all due respect to your beliefs, for me there is no question...

that we don't.

Sid

[Flying Dream Blues]

95. I understand your position...it was once mine as well. nt

[Ex Lion Tamer]

127. Me too.

Glad I changed it!

But understand the opposite view.

[mondo joe]

103. You may have no question - but there is plenty of question. Especially

since there is no evidence whatsoever to support your belief.

[dchill]

161. If there were a nail, would you hit it...

on the head? I believe you just did. ;)

[Beaverhausen]

4. I believe in reincarnation

I don't believe in "heaven"

[AlienGirl]

32. Same here...Bad people get re-born in Florida

(Just kidding, Floridians.)

Tucker

[William769]

33. & here I thought it was Washington.

:shrug:

[Qibing Zero]

35. Most of us here would probably agree with that!

Those of us who weren't actually born here but have lived here too long, at least. ;)

[UncleSepp]

43. Nah... Some of us just move there (n/t)

[mccoyn]

164. Thats retirement, not reincarnation!

I'm sorry. It was just too easy, I couldn't resist.

[raccoon]

133. I did once, too, but not any more.

I don't think there is an afterlife.

[damntexdem]

5. "I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell."

Or not, as the case may be.

[wtmusic]

6. You'll be back

The fact that you're living now is proof that it's possible. Since it's possible, and time is endless, at some point your life will happen again.

Just probability.

[damntexdem]

17. But if there is no continuity in between, will that really be me ...

or simply someone identical to me?

[benburch]

36. Good point.

I wonder the same thing when I wake up in the morning.

All-in-all, though, if there were a means of making a backup copy of my mind, I wouldn't have a problem with a continued mechanical existence, given my doubts about the sleep state to begin with.

[wtmusic]

66. There is a logical proof

that if you could create a molecule-for-molecule clone of yourself (possible, in theory) that that being would not only be identical but would BE you.

I have intuitive problems with it but I remember the site I read it on made a very convincing argument. Now I can't find it... :(

[jbnow]

67. The you that you are now

is the tip of the iceberg.

[manic expression]

163. There is continuity

Between lives. You simply take a new form, you don't really change in a deeper sense. It is as you change clothes.

[Dem Agog]

64. Now I like your logic!

wtmusic - your logic is intriguing... It's at least a new twist on the argument.

[wtmusic]

68. Not only that--you'll be "reborn" almost instantly after you die

from a perception standpoint (again, since the amount of time between "lives" is finite and time passes infinitely fast while you're dead).

[manic expression]

165. Perhaps

time is ultimately immaterial to a soul without a physical form. It depends on the individual and its situation as to when or how they will be reborn and what they will be reborn as. However, I agree that the state of an entity between lives is subliminal, like a dream.

What has influenced your beliefs?

[wtmusic]

180. Surgery

When I had surgery some years back I got general anaesthesia and the experience was this: I saw the ether mask coming down and closed my eyes, then opened them. When I looked at the clock I was amazed to see that 6 hours had passed in an instant.

Even when asleep IMO we have a general sense of the passage of time, but I had none. That led me to rationalize that the amount of time which passes after you die is irrelevant: time effectively stops, and uncalculable lengths of time can pass before pure chance reassembles you, and it will pass in the blink of an eye (of course "you" wouldn't remember anything about your past life).

Then again, maybe it's just wishful thinking :shrug:

[manic expression]

181. Time doesn't 'stop', IMO

but more or less fades away and becomes irrelevant. I've closed my eyes to go to sleep at night only to open them seemingly 6 seconds later to the afternoon, it is quite an experience.

I think one can remember things from a past life through certain circumstances. It can also be subliminal, like if you've ever had just a "bad feeling" about someone, perhaps you were at odds with them in a past life.

Just my opinion.

[wtmusic]

182. The idea of the persistence of a "soul"

after one dies, which can occupy many different bodies and times, is attractive--but I have never found it convincing. What has influenced your thought on this?

[manic expression]

184. That idea

is very convincing, IMO. It is backed up by the Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy. Energy and matter is not lost, but it is transfered to something else.

As a metaphor, picture a drop of water. It can occupy any body of water or even different states of matter (liquid, ice, gas) without changing, just as the individual soul does with physical manifestations.

Everything ends, but everything begins again. That which is constant through this cycle is the true self of the entity, which is connected with all and ultimately is the reality of all things.

That's just my opinion.

Hinduism has influenced my ideas.

[mondo joe]

108. No - even if you could manage to get all my dna together just so again,

that person who might look like me would not have the experiences that contribute to my identity so... wouldn't be me.

[wtmusic]

112. There'll be one of those too, if you wait long enough

and you'll have more time than you know what to do with

[manic expression]

168. It is not about identity in a physical sense

it is about the individual in the highest sense. When someone dies, they then take the form of a new thing in a new life. Superficial aspects have nothing to do with it. That which is eternal, the true individual, never really dies, it merely shifts its external body.

[mccoyn]

169. Not necisarrily.

The universe appears to be getting less dense. Entropy appears to be increasing. Background radiation is changing frequencies. The exact conditions that lead to me won't and can not ever exist again. Of course, they could exist somewhere else in the universe at the same time. As long as time is the universe is big.

[Walt Starr]

8. Law of conservation of energy and matter

Your mind is energy and that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes forms.

At the point of death, the energy of our mind changes forms. What form it takes after death is the only thing open to debate. I posit that the altered form is what we would refer to as the "afterlife".

[me b zola]

19. Yep...........n/t

[SidDithers]

54. Or, the energy dissipates into the atmosphere...

as heat, released when our bodies cool after death.

The second lay of thermodynamics doesn't really apply here.

Sid

[Walt Starr]

55. That argument can be made quite easily

Where does it go from there? What happens to it after it dissipates as heat?

You can't really answer that, nor can anybody.

Nobody has ever died, and I mean truly died, and come back to tell anybody about it.

[Bluerthanblue]

171. if they had

more people might take the 'fast track'-

A sensible reason for the mystery??

[Zenlitened]

227. Well, at one time, the energy now being disappeated as heat...

... was a coherent signal capable of conveying pictures as sound -- i.e., information.

Now the energy still exists, but the information has been lost, it seems to me.

So I'm not sure that laws of conservation really apply to the questions of what happens at death.

[Flying Dream Blues]

94. Absolutely right. I used that same argument with my son,

who was very scientific and rational, in the last conversation we had before he died. He made a point to come back and tell me, "You were right, Mom..." along with many other things. It was just so real. This and many other similar experiences have given me the belief that life continues for all of us, just in a different form.

[mondo joe]

101. Where does the energy from the TV go when it is turned off?

[laundry_queen]

167. Very close to my beliefs as well.

That along with the string theory (ies) and other parallel universe theories (and that certain types of energy, like gravity can trancend the barriers of this universe) sort of makes me think we just haven't discovered exactly where or what the afterlife is yet, but it's there.

[madinmaryland]

10. I would like to believe there is,

but is there any actual proof that there is any?

It's kind of like the saying, if there was no god, then someone would invent one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Only in the sense that nothing is destroyed in the universe.

Reincarnation, if you will. Though I think that one has more chances of "coming back" as manure is more likely than returning as movie star.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. well, returning as manure is

almost a sure thing!

[mduffy31]

13. I will say this

If heaven and hell are like some of the people that I work with, hell will be the way to go, all of the cool and interesting people are going there, besides all of the good girls are going to heaven anyway...:evilgrin: :spank:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. As Mark Twain said: "Heaven for the climate, Hell for the conversation".

[Flying Dream Blues]

96. I love that quote...Mark Twain was a national treasure. God he's funny!

[ms liberty]

15. There is life after death. There is reincarnation.

It's going to surprise some people in a big way, when their time comes.
I'd love to be the proverbial fly on the wall when Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell get there. Their fit-pitching will be a hilarious laugh riot. I'm sure Jesus and Mohammed will think so, too.

[TahitiNut]

16. As much as I believe in the "beforelife".

:shrug:

[KansDem]

20. There's gotta be one! I've got to keep working so I can pay off the debts

I accrued in my former life!

[Gronk Groks]

21. The reality is that I believe because I need to...

...if Death ends in nothingness then all I have striven for: Love,Beauty and Justice is all for naught and life itself is meaningless.

If there is a life after death then my life has had meaning. Regardless of the sacrifices I have endured for the 'Greater Good' of others,time lost for more pleasant pursuits; I will have found a satisfactory reward.

With that knowledge I shall not fear Death and if I am wrong I will not know it.

[AlienGirl]

30. Why can't Love, Beauty, and Justice be meaningful all by themselves?

I believe in reincarnation, but it doesn't make what I do now any more or less meaningful. The purpose of trying to make the world better is because the world needs it, not because it may be rewarded.

Tucker

[Gronk Groks]

71. Selfish ego I suppose...

...and maybe the hope of a higher purpose.

When it comes down to it; it is because I need it, not because it exists.

I just hope/believe it does...

[Mad_Dem_X]

159. Thank you, Gronk Groks

You've explained it very well; the need to know that it was all for *something*.

[Fox Mulder]

51. You're right.

If there is no afterlife, then everything we do, say, or feel is ultimately meaningless.

I really hope there is something beyond death. :scared:

[Norquist Nemesis]

22. If what we're living in now is Hell

Then there's hopefully a Heaven. :)

I still haven't decided, though. And I wonder how ghosts/spirits fit in to the 'afterlife' categories.

[connecticut yankee]

23. I do because

I can't conceive of not being.

However, I have no idea in what form I'll come back.

I also wonder what I was in a previous life (or lives).

Have any of you had past-life regression?

Are we given another chance to be better?

[UncleSepp]

42. I have had dreams and then regression

Some of this is stated rather strongly and directly. Please understand, this is my opinion and belief. I make no claim that it is objectively true, let alone that it is the only true explanation.

I have had many dreams of what appear to be two other lifetimes, roughly 1897-1945 and 1946-1969. Each set appears to be fairly internally consistent, and I have been able to verify some of the details. I have also done non-hypnotic regression with two different people. One was not very useful, as she attempted to guide the regression and determine its course. The other was much more useful, as I went into it with the goal of obtaining information that would be verifiable by a specific person, and the gentleman doing the regression allowed me to determine its course to achieve that goal. Sadly, the person I wanted to verify those details with died shortly thereafter, before I could work up the chutzpah to write her the letter and ask.

This is not to say that I am completely convinced that these represent memories of a past life. Reincarnation is one explanation, but there are other explanations. Frankly, I do not like the idea that these people were me. It isn't necessary, even given the idea of reincarnation, to say that those other people were "me". They were not me. They were them. Perhaps each one carries the memories of the ones who went before, and I carry them all now. To the extent that my memories of my present life affect who I am, those memories also affect who I am, but they do not define it. Human beings are not unchanging in the course of a single lifetime. I do not assume that human beings are unchanging across many.

If it is reincarnation, and if these dreams are dreams of a previous iteration of my consciousness in another body, then yes. We do most definitely have another chance to be better as people. We are not trapped by nor are we defined by our past. Even terrible actions with terrible consequences do not doom a person to a lifetime of terrible suffering. The universe doesn't seem to be keeping score. If any meaning is to be drawn from the experience of having "past life memories", it is that our destiny is in our own hands, and that we are who we choose to be.

This is the same lesson to be drawn from not believing in any afterlife. To me this makes sense: life is just life and death is just death. Whether these things happen once or repeatedly to the same consciousness does not change the nature of what life is or what death is. The universe works how it works because that's how it works. It does not revolve around the needs of Earth, humanity, or us as individual people. If part of how that works is that memories formed in one human mind end up in another through some as-yet-unexplained mechanism, fine. It's a bit weird, but even just our little world can be a very weird place.

If you are thinking about a past life regression, but you are not having problems that seem to stem from a past life (for example, recurring nightmares set in the past, panic attacks related to something in the past, intrusive thoughts of the past), my advice would be to leave it alone. Do not open that Pandora's box for the sake of curiosity. It's not worth it.

[0rganism]

24. I think a more detailed poll might be interesting

Along the lines of, if you do believe in an afterlife, what does it look like?

__ Full of Norse warriors in the great hall of Odin, who do battle daily and are ressurected unscathed to feast

__ You are ferried across the River of Forgetfullness, after which Hades decides whether you spend an eternity partying in the Elyssian Fields or pushing boulders up a hill in Tartarus

__ Paradise Theatre for the believers, Firey Hell for the unbelievers. Doubters beware!

__ You transition from life into an in-between state, whereupon you are confronted by spirit visions as your memories of this life fade away. If you can figure out that the visions are just another part of the material illusion, you don't have to do another life sentence here.

__ Consciousness re-enters universal communion with the oversoul

__ You awaken to see aliens congratulating you on passing the test

etc.

[benburch]

28. Feel free! nt

[Nia Zuri]

25. A few years ago, at age 3 or 4 my son used to say to me

When he got angry with me he used to say, "I knew I shouldn't have picked you for a mother!" Kind of freaked me out. Also said he remebers being inside me before birth, could feel me moving and could hear sounds.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

53. And then there is that story

(sorry no links) about a mother who heard her child (about four) whispering to the new baby "remind me what is is like there...I'm forgetting."



ooooohhhhhh

[jbnow]

65. That sounds funny but

I can believe it. Until my son was about 5 he'd periodically talk to me about this other world we lived in. He liked this world a lot but he was glad we'd be going back "home". He would compare and contrast them.

He was astounded that I didn't remember it, he didn't think it was possible. Sometimes he'd get mad, why was I pretending, of course I remembered. Sometimes he'd be baffled.
A couple times he enthusiastically greeted a stranger, just running to them and when sternly reminded not to talk to strangers he'd be disgusted with me. We knew them when they looked different, I didn't forget that too did I? I remember him telling one he liked the face they had now. Another he recalled use to rock and sing to him all the time when he was his mommy.

I was a happy super-logical, agnostic chemistry major in his early years, I encouraged none of this. I would try to shush him.

His dad died when he was 4 1/2. He started waking up and tell me about conversations with his dad. I'd nicely tell him he was dreaming, he denied that. He told me things about his dad's past that meant nothing to me, that neither of us knew, that turned out to be true.
One night I had a dream where his dad was telling me about the 7 levels of heaven. Long, intense dream. The next morning my son told me that daddy wanted him to remind me about the 7 levels of heaven.

I passed that off because my son often "read thoughts" in eerie ways, though in retrospect that's funny because I always tried to shrug that off too and deny it and shush him. But I guess it was easier for me to think he read my mind then that he could be communicating with a dead man.
I could tell many stories but since I experienced them first hand and they didn't change my mind they wouldn't change anyone else's. We don't need to change anyones mind.

I'm sure I was frustrating to him and he was discomfiting to me. When he neared his teens...I had my own experiences that changed me. He was a regular teen, the psychic things ended as he started school. Then he use to lecture me about not sounding "all metaphysical". I'd tell him turn about was fair play.
We would sometimes have dueling songfests when he thought I was getting too spiritual sounding. He'd sing at me "We are living in a material world and you are a material girl" and I'd sing back at him "We are spirit in a material world" Sweet revenge.

[northamericancitizen]

73. Thank you for sharing this.

It's quite interesting to read so many posts quoting children.
Are they closer to "the source" whatever it is?

[jbnow]

75. Not really closer to the source

then adults are, but simply less veiled from it.

We are never far from the source.

[Bluerthanblue]

130. for all in this string- it's hollywood, but

the movie "Baby Geniuses" addresses this in a way-
and i'm not unconvinced.

There is a wisdom in childhood that is systematically silenced, ignored and belittled. Because we are busy 'growing up' and facing 'reality'.

Why then, do we have to be taught to hate, fear, mistrust?

It is most often from unmet needs, that people become 'cruel'-
The need to be cherished, nurtured, valued, accepted, and the knowledge that we ALL should receive these basic necessities, NOT because 'we' are good- or deserving but because they are essential to life.

If ever the day comes when we are smart enough to understand this, the world will change profoundly-

[TallahasseeGrannie]

74. Wow. All I know for sure is that

I don't know for sure. There are certainly enough signs to keep us interested, however. Your son is one.

I was with my mother not long ago when she took her final breath. My face was next to her, and my hand was near her mouth and I just felt something escape her and then she was very still.

It is the final frontier, I guess. Perhaps it is not even metaphysical, but a result of natural laws we have not yet discovered. I'm sure the ancient Romans could never have conceived of radio waves.

I do know this much. The concept of living forever, in this body, is horrible. I would never want immortality on earth if it were presented to me. I relish the idea of leaving, whether it is to the big sleep or the big happy party in the sky. But not just yet.

[Flying Dream Blues]

100. I was with my grandmother when she died as well.

She had been "seeing" and talking to her mother and my grandfather (both dead) for a few days. When she left her body, all three of us in the room looked up and called to her. I can't say I "saw" anything, but it was certainly a real sensation that we all felt her leaving, in sort of a rush of air, upwards.

When I came home from her funeral, this old and sadly, not very well tended plant she had given me a few years before had this enormous bloom, like an orchid. It had never flowered before nor has it since.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

122. I love stories like this

there is an energy... there is something.

Bless the mystery of it all!

[shrike]

225. True story

In our local newspaper, Chicago area.

Family had a lemon tree they'd kept for years. Put it downstairs in the basement, so it would survive the cold winters. The tree always had lovely, fragrant blossoms, but never any fruit. Then, one of their six children died tragically. The next spring, the tree began to bear lemons -- six of them. Always six.

This had been going on for a while, and mom always used them to make a lemon meringue pie. Neighbors, disinterested others verified the story, and while academics and horticulturists said it was certainly possible that the old tree would suddenly start bearing again -- could be many factors, they said -- it was certainly unusual, especially the part about the six lemons.

The family decided not to speculate too much, because it gave them so much comfort to think that somehow their lost child was sending them a message from beyond the grace.

[Mad_Dem_X]

162. "The concept of living forever, in this body..."

That's one of my points in believing in an afterlife. For people who have known great pain and sadness, there just has to be something good that comes out of it for them.

[shrike]

226. Story my husband tells about his daughter (my stepdaughter)

One day, when she was playing, she looked up at him and her mother said, "Hey! What happened to my other mother?"

They were floored, of course. Then she said, "Never mind," and went back to playing.

The only metaphysical experience I've had is shortly after my dad died. My sibs and I were squabbling about the estate and I went to bed very angry with them. In my dream, I walked into a room and saw a man sitting at a table. He turned around and I saw that it was my father. He had that look on his face that I knew so well -- the one he wore when he was very pissed off at me. I woke up suddenly, and violently. Needless to say, I was on my best behavior with my sibs from then on. And everything worked out very well with the estate.

[OhioChick]

27. Yes........

I do believe in "Heaven."

[northamericancitizen]

37. Quotes from my son (at age 10)

"we live our life with our personality and in death we live with our conscience"

"While alive we live, when dead we listen"


Yes there is something going on when our body dies. What exactly, nobody knows.

[UncleSepp]

46. "That looks just like me when I was older"

My nephew, at about age 5, looking at a sketch I was making of a young man I saw in my dream the night before. This was the same kid who at about nine or ten described a trip to the airport to pick up a dark-haired uncle he doesn't have, at an airport none of us had been to. Imagine my surprise the day I walked into that airport :-)

[northamericancitizen]

52. I like to think that those kids are "old soul" nt

[KittyWampus]

31. I Know With Certitude That The Energy Animating My Body Is Immortal

that my body is but a vehicle and that I shed bodies much like hermit crabs shed their shells when they outgrow them.

Thanks for catching my error, Tucker!

[AlienGirl]

34. Snails don't shed their shells, though

Snails make their shells and continue to add new shell as they grow. The shell is with them till they die. Hermit crabs are the ones that outgrow (borrowed) snail shels and shed them.

Tucker

[KittyWampus]

40. Thanks Tucker, Gonna Change My Post In Your Honor!

:toast:

[mondo joe]

102. What energy is animating your body?

Do you mean the energy you generate through digesting food?

[Metta]

38. The straight Buddhist ticket.

nt.

[RethugAssKicker]

39. There is an afterlife... Its called your descendents....

You live through your children, friends, etc... it is what you pass on to the rest of the world... that allows you to continue to "live".

That is why it is so important to live a good, productive life...!

[scorpiogirl]

45. I think it's possible but how can we know?

I once, over 10 years ago, had my boyfriend's sister ask me if I thought there was an afterlife. I answered no. She then asked me what do I think happens after I die. I said that's it, you get buried in a box. I think she was shocked as she is a devout Catholic. My question is: what difference does it make? Living your life as though it's the only life you have doesn't make you less moral than someone who's trying to live their life as though someone (God?) is waiting to tell them whether they did a good job or not and will allow them to go to heaven or live forever.

I think no matter how I got here or how I leave, I still have to deal with what's happening today in this world. This is the only world I know for sure I have the ability to make decisions about.

[Fox Mulder]

48. I honestly can't give you a definitive answer.

I just don't know. I'm hoping there's one, but there's no real evidence of it. There's no evidence against it, either.

I label myself a "hopeful agnostic", meaning I hope there is some kind of afterlife/God, but I just don't know.

[maxsolomon]

56. i believe that whatever your conception of an afterlife is

it is most certainly incorrect.

every religion, EVERY SINGLE ONE, that believes in some form of afterlife, is just guessing.

[sinkingfeeling]

58. I voted 'no.' " Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. No hell

below us, above us only sky." Beautiful lyrics that sums it up...no sadness or misery about not believing.

[Der Blaue Engel]

79. When I first heard Imagine, I was 14

My mother had just died, and I was a firmly entrenched fundamentalist xian. I sobbed when I heard the song, because it sounded so wonderful, and I wanted to be free like that, free of feeling guilt of "disappointing God" and free of terror of demons and hell. It seemed like a dream that was off-limits for me, and I longed to be able to imagine.

I had forgotten about that until just now, when I read your post (and, once again, burst into tears). I've been an athiestic pagan for many years, but those fears are still down there hiding, and I thank you for reminding me that I now know how to imagine something more perfect and more beautiful than heaven. (And thank you, John Lennon.)

[sinkingfeeling]

81. I think that song says everything about my personal beliefs and

idealism. 'You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one.'

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

60. Without question I believe that the spirit lives on and that

reincarnation exists.

[Blue_In_AK]

61. I'm with you, Omm n/t

[I Have A Dream]

76. Ditto. n/t

[sendero]

69. I consider the question moot..

.... since we can't really know and there's no evidence that after we die we remember our life.

I assume that when it's over, it's over. I believe in "genetic memory" and that my children are my legacy - not a "reincarnation" or an "afterlife".

[UncleSepp]

137. People keep saying there's no evidence...

... and yet refusing to look at what evidence there is of, for example, reincarnation. There is evidence. It's not enough to undeniably prove that it occurs, and does not address how it occurs, but there is evidence. The work of Ian Stevenson is, I believe, the most well documented and properly gathered.

Why not just say that you do not believe in it because you do not want to believe in it? It doesn't make sense to you, you disagree. That's great. But why resort to saying there is no evidence, when there is?

[triguy46]

70. Regardless of the stridency that comes from both sides...

we'll never know for sure till we die. Or, perhaps, we'll either know or we won't know, that is really more accurate, IMHO. But we cannot know while living.

[PurityOfEssence]

72. Well, I hope the reactionaries see this

Much as I believe it's childish poppycock, I'm sick of having the left portrayed as a bunch of religion haters.

This should show that lefties aren't just a bunch of layabout god-haters.

(It's a ridiculous concept, though. I'm an agnostic, so I won't say that it isn't true; I just say that it makes no sense, doesn't feel as if it's true and smacks of nothing so much as wishful thinking.)

[karlrschneider]

77. I don't, but I'm willing to consider any evidence...

;-)

[AlienGirl]

78. Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation by Dr. Stevenson

Children's Past Lives by Carol Bowman
cases on http://www.reincarnationforum.com (there are some well-researched, well-documented cases there).

Tucker

[UncleSepp]

138. So much for "nobody ever came back and told about it" n/t

[Mnemosyne]

187. Excellent book AlienGirl!

I've read it several times. There is no way to argue with Stevenson's research I feel. His book convinced me of reincarnation. Too much there to be all just "coincidences" as some have tried to convince me in the past.

Thanks for the reminder of this amazing book! :)

Peace
V

[Lilith Velkor]

80. I don't know.

It doesn't really matter to me. It's a nice subject for talking bollocks on a Saturday night, but a lot of people take it way too seriously, and that's sad.

[Horse with no Name]

82. I used to live in this house

I loved the house. It was a beautiful 2000 sq. foot home in a desirable neighborhood. 3 bdrm, 2 bath. Manicured lawns. Custom through and through.
The master bedroom was at the end of a long hallway and for some reason there was only one light switch which was up by the living room.
So every night before going to bed, I had to walk down this dark hall.
Everytime I walked by the first bedroom on the right (which was unoccupied), I got chills and the hair on my arms would stand up.
It always felt like someone was following me down the hall. I always turned around but never saw anything.
I thought I was nuts. I never told a soul.
I went away for Christmas and had a friend come in and feed my cats every day.
When I got home, she told me to never ask her to do that again.
I thought the cats had shit on the floor or something because they were upset at being left alone, but she said that everytime she went to that area of the house, that it gave her the creeps because it felt like someone was there--but there wasn't. She had her boyfriend come with her after the first time she felt it--but he said he didn't feel it.
Sooo my next door neighbor was a dear little old lady. I sat down with her to find out about the house. She said several years before that a teenager that lived there had been killed in a motorcycle wreck.
She said the parents moved out not long after that and since then, nobody stayed longer than 6 months in this house.
I didn't share with her the "ghost story".
I can't say for sure it was a ghost, because I never SAW anything. Nothing was ever moved. Lights were never off and on. Never any temperature changes. None of the things you hear about it when there are ghosts.
But the feelings were very real and obviously felt by many people.
So..I guess my answer is yes, I do.

[Jose Diablo]

83. The part of us that is solipsism continues, the ego stays here

From the above link:

"In introducing 'methodic doubt' into philosophy, Descartes created the backdrop against which solipsism subsequently developed, and was made to seem, if not plausible, at least irrefutable. For the ego which is revealed by the cogito is, Descartes held, a solitary consciousness, a res cogitans which is not spatially extended, which, as such, is not necessarily located in any body, and which accordingly can be assured of its own existence exclusively as a conscious mind. (Discourse on Method and the Meditations). This view of the self is intrinsically solipsistic, and Descartes evades the solipsistic consequences of his method of doubt only by the rather desperate expedient of appealing to the benevolence of God. Since God is no deceiver, he argues, and since He has created man with an innate disposition to assume the existence of an external, public world corresponding to the private world of the 'ideas' which are the only immediate objects of consciousness, it follows that such a public world actually exists. (Sixth Meditation). Thus does God, in Descartes' philosophy, bridge the chasm between the solitary consciousness revealed by methodic doubt and the intersubjective world of public objects and other human beings. It should be clear that this particular evasion of solipsism cannot be availed of by a philosopher who at one and the same time accepts the Cartesian picture of consciousness and rejects the function attributed to God by Descartes - in view of this it is scarcely surprising that we should find the spectre of solipsism looming ever more threateningly in the works of Descartes' successors in the modern world, particularly in those of the British empiricist tradition.

Implicit in Descartes' account of the nature of mind is the view that the individual acquires such psychological concepts as he possesses 'from his own case', i.e. that each individual has a unique and privileged access to his own mind, which is denied to everyone else. Although this view utilises language and involves the employment of conceptual categories ('the individual', 'other minds', etc.) which are inimical to solipsism, it was nonetheless fundamentally conducive historically to the development of solipsistic patterns of thought. For on this view what I know immediately and with greatest certainty are the events which occur in my own mind - my thoughts, my emotions, my perceptions, my desires, etc. - and these are not known in this way by anyone else. By the same token, it follows that I do not know other minds in the way in which I know my own; indeed, if I am to be said to know other minds at all - that they exist, and that they have a particular nature - it can only be on the basis of certain inferences which I have made from what is directly accessible to me, namely, the behaviour of other human beings."

<cut>


So what I think is this, all of us are a single soul and that part continues. Yet our minds, our ego as it were, that exists within our individual brains, that ego doesn't persist when the body dies. Yet somehow, the memories of that ego, they are immortal as they are also with the soul (for lack of a more accurate word for whatever it is). Thus the conscience (the awareness of existence) of the ego, it also persists as the ego perishes at death.

Think of the ego as the awareness of this world and that is what dies with the body or the senses that create the ego. Or another way to put it, our perception of being an individual ends at death and we then see ourselves as a small part of something much larger. A hive mind would describe that soul I think.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

84. No, the end's the end.

"Well lets all pretend,
there's a happy end,
with religion football and sex."
-- The Tiger Lillies

[sweetheart]

85. yes

I remember past lives, and one day, this will be a past life.

I "know" that my spirit is not part of this body... and frankly,
death will be a happy thing, this body can rot, whilst a spirit
moves on to a new model. What a great celibration that death is,
a great life, and no regrets... bringing us to this moment now,
and everything that is real about life, and truth, is apparent
without conception, without self... and this non-ego centric awareness
of self transcends the body.

Another way of putting it, the awareness that listens to your life
stream of consciousness, that which listens to the inner dialog,
unjudging, just real and present... that core flame of your mind
is eternal. All ephemeral self and sensory-experience self is
an illusion... something that comes and goes. Truth is always
present, that which listens "now".

As people get older, they often remember past lives, and have
out of body experiences that lead them to become aware how the
awareness is not dependent on the body to exist. Then some people
change how they see life, based on empirical experience, that
all "experience" follows the cycle of life, birth, maturation and
death. What is aware of the experience, those central neurons
that listen to the neuron's neurons... in the center of the mind,
beyond senses, what is real?

If you can, you might try a float in a sensory isolation tank. It
can help you explore dependency of self on sensory feedback, and
what self remains without those inputs.
http://www.samadhitank.com/history.html

[Quixote1818]

86. Elenore Roosevelt said something to the effect that

it would not surprise her to wake after death and be in another life any more than she is surprised to be in this one. I thought while simple her words are very profound.

[graywarrior]

87. No. But I have a bad aftertaste from dinner.

[More Than A Feeling]

88. I believe in the Second Coming, so the answer is yes.

We'll all find out soon enough, though.

[donheld]

89. What we believe is illrelivant. Nobody can say for sure

what happens.

[really annoyed]

90. Don't Know

All I know is that I strive to be a decent human being.

Besides, I have a life NOW.

[Vinca]

91. No and I'm oddly comforted by the fact I'll someday

be part of the earth. Maybe DH will sprinkle me around the tomato plants or dump me in the compost pile. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust and all that.

[benburch]

93. Even better. You are part of the earth NOW.

The only difference is that you are a part of the earth that can contemplate that fact now.

We are the organs whereby the universe perceives itself.

[MadisonProgressive]

92. I don't believe in an afterlife.

But I hope there is one!

[DubyaSux]

97. I think I could prove it....

Seriously, if some person with tons of money (for salary and equipment) financed it, I think I could prove that there is not only life after death (not necessarily in the physical sense, yet very real), but could prove the probability of a heaven/hell type location.

In my opinion, narrow-mindedness does not allow for options outside of what we think we know. I believe we don't know 1 billionth of how all stuff works in our universe, but we are quick to point out the impossible or implausible. I'm not faulting anybody at all, but there are millions of things that go on in our universe our brains may not even have the capability to phathom. Personally, I think it's implausible to think that the balance of our planet/solar system and design of our bodies - along with our mental capabilities - is a natural result of mold and fungus. I believe that our energy does not die with our bodies. I can prove why people see ghosts, why there can be life after death, and why there can be a heaven/hell using scientific methods. Wouldn't it be something to keep in contact with our loved ones, great leaders, etc?

The chance that death ends everything is exactly the same chance that it doesn't. I prefer to be more open-minded.

[Raiden]

98. No

I think when we are dead, that's it


Grim but much more likely than Heaven or Hell

[hopeisaplace]

99. Believe in reincarnation until we get it right

IMO we're here to live,love,learn and go home..and come back again again and again if we so choose

[DainBramaged]

113. I agree, I think I'll be back again down the road

[Az]

104. No

Kinda makes doing the right thing with the life you have a bit more important to my thinking.

[Warren DeMontague]

105. Seems to me the most unlikely thing is coming here even once

after that, why not an infinite amount of times?

Or, let's put it this way; I think perception and reality are inextricably linked. For reality to take place, there has to be a first person perceiver. Namely, "Me", or more precisely "I". I think that the universal "I" will be around after my self dies, but the specific "me" won't.

Or something like that.

[Kazak]

106. We live on by passing our genetic information onto our children...

That is what I believe, scratch that, observe. That could be construed to be mean life after death, reincarnation, whatever you like... It's right there, before our very eyes...so simple, so obvious.

[mondo joe]

109. Indeed. And "we" will go on long after these vehicles we call bodies

and identities have rotted away.

[shanti]

110. i believe the spirit lives on after the body is finished

not necessarily in the same form, tho. guess that makes me a reincarnationist.

[Gregorian]

111. In the event that it does, I'm behaving myself.

Given the things that have happened, I believe there's more to life than meat.

[mondo joe]

114. As soon as someone demonstrates we are anything other than our bodies

and its chemical reactions, I'll consider it.

Until then, no, just like the TV doesn't play after it breaks beyond repair.

[AlienGirl]

115. But the shows continue to play on the channels

...even if your TV isn't picking them up. If consciousness is more information-like than matter-like, it may continue "playing" even if your individual body has broken down.

Tucker

[mondo joe]

126. The shows continue to play? Are you suggesting consciousness is

broadcast from somewhere outside our bodies the way TV signals are?

If so, can you demonstrate this?

[Bluerthanblue]

132. ah, but

was the TV ever ...alive?

Therein lies the rub- did it grow, replicate, change, shed, do anything without outside intervention- ?

Grass grows, it dies, it rots, and cells that were 'grass' become other things that grow.

The shell of an egg remains after the birth of a chick- The shell remains- the chick is what has become of the essence of life that the shell contained- While we can 'see' this transformation- I'm not arrogant, or ignorant enough to think, that because i- a mere human being cannot witness a change and 'prove' it- that it doesn't happen-

Columbus defied the notion that the world was 'flat'- Microscopes have expanded our ability to 'prove' that what cannot be seen with the naked eye does indeed 'exist'- Have we 'arrived' at the point where we know and understand all that may be? god i hope not- war has existed since the begining of time- and we still haven't figured out it doesn't solve anything in the long run- but that doesn't mean there isn't a REAL solution.

[mondo joe]

139. Your analogy assumes my body is just a lifeless shell containing

the truly "living" thing. But that has not been demonstrated in any way. Certainly no more than that Naiads or Draiads animate trees and rivers.

As far as anyonce can tell, we are our bodies and our lives are system of reactions. When our bodies die, so do our identities, and the materials that once composed us will go on to compose other things. But the grasses and other things that my current materials will one day be will not be me, any more than I am the chicken I ate last night.

I don't need to understand everything to say I will believe those things that have been evidenced.

[Bluerthanblue]

140. but do you need

evidence to believe what you say you understand?

Our bodies are far more than a system of reactions-
And we are more than our bodies-
You can keep a body alive artifically- but is the 'essence' of Mondo Joe still alive simply because your container is? If not where is it?
Where did it come from? Where does it go?
No proof exists on either side-
Just imaginings- something that cannot be 'proven'- (yet)

[mondo joe]

141. I need evidence to believe something, and no evidence results

in absence of belief.

You say our bodies are more than a system of reaction, and we are more than our bodies - but there is no evidence to support your claims.

I don't know of which "essence" you speak since it has never been identified, quantified or even demonstrated to exist.

As far as can be shown, my identity is simply the sum of the chemical reactions of my body. When the body malfunctions or is broken, those reactions alter or cease.

I don't need to prove that because I'm not claiming anything other than that which is already observed. If you want to me to open up to some claim something beyond that, you'll need some evidence.

[drfresh]

116. Recommended

There are a ton of thoughtful posts here! :)
For the record, I have faith in a cosmic Source that created this universe, and I do believe that our souls continue after our bodies fail.

[MojoXN]

117. I am a reincarnationist...

For two main reasons. Reason the first: Therodynamics, specifically the law of conservation of energy. Reason the Second: Why would God/The Universe waste resources when he/it could recycle? :)

Seriously though, there is enough anecdotal evidence for at least LIMITED reincarnation to convince me of its reality. Incidentally, I don't subscribe to any particular established faith, and I don't believe that humans are reborn into lower forms (i.e. animals). I guess that about covers it.

MojoXN

[pengu1n]

118. no way..

All religion is evil. There is no afterlife. "Heaven and hell" are here and now. This world can be magical and wonderful. We need no other.:evilgrin: :evilgrin:
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddists - believe what you want - good for you - I hope you are happy. Personally I think is stinks like shit - so don't try to force it down my throat.

[Douglas Carpenter]

120. I'm not certain there is an afterlife. But, I would definitely vote for

having it. Maybe, this should be a campaign issue

[Marr]

121. No offense to anyone here, but the idea of

an after-life seems awfully self-centered to me. All things change. All things end. The sun will end someday. This galaxy will end someday. To expect our own consciousness to continue on for eternity... I don't know. It's almost obscene somehow. It just doesn't fit.

I feel very fortunate to have been here, conscious and healthy, able to experience life- even if only for a brief instant. This consciousness will end someday, as all things end- but that doesn't make life any less meaningful.

Live it up while you can, dirtballs. You'll be back to unconscious, scattered matter before you know it. Someday the atoms that make up that frame of yours will be scattered into space again.

[Bluerthanblue]

129. end? or

change- be transformed into something that is different, yet still a 'part' of what came before?

It's only 'self-centered' if we don't acknowledge the interconnectedness of all things- Believing that 'we' are so unique, and finite seems more self centered (in my view) than believing we are a part of what was, and what my be someday- we are the sum of so many 'things'- we may indeed be 'some' of what may be... don't you think? perhaps?

[Marr]

131. I fully expect to change into something else: dust.

Perhaps a plant or two. I believe fully in the interconnectedness of all things. We're all part of the same soup, and we'll all go back into the brew when we die.

The argument for an after-life is one that says our consciousness will remain, that it will somehow esacape this process.

[Bluerthanblue]

135. and who is to say

what 'consciousness' does remain? Perhaps you can't hear the dust- does that mean it has no consciousness? We need to learn to think outside the box- Like Galileo, Columbus, Da Vinci, and perhaps the wisest humans of our time- the Native Americans.

If we limit ourselves to our own 'experiences'- (things we have already 'known' or 'lived') then we are already dead.

We humans are pretty ego-centric. And sadly 'prove-it' motivated.
That limits us tremendously- It is those who dream things that never were, who open up new understandings.

Waxing very philosophical, as i watch my existence in this 'dimension' grow closer to ending- and looking towards new frontiers.

[Marr]

142. I wish humanity was alot more "prove-it" minded, to be honest.

The people you mention certainly were. Galileo and Da Vinci most particularly. Does dust have a consciousness? I have no reason to think it does. I have no evidence that suggests such a thing.

I believe our consciousness is a result of our biological makeup, and a somewhat incidental part of it at that. We think it's the ultimate achievement of course, but then- we're conscious beings. Of course we think we're important.

[mondo joe]

143. Me too. The "just because you can't see it" arguments are a good

reason to believe in fairies, men on the moon and the easter bunny.

Just because you can't see it (read as: demonstrate it) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But it doesn't mean it does either.

[Bluerthanblue]

145. how sad

for those who only believe in what they can prove.
I've never seen many things- but I know they exist.

Just as I knew the children I carried in my womb existed- even before they made themselves manifest- Even before I had any reason to believe I was pregnant.

Not all things believed are real- but many things not proven right now, will be evidenced some day- wether we 'believe' or not.

[mondo joe]

146. How sad that I have no belief in Easter Bunnys or Gnomes?

I don't think so.

There's quite enough wonder in the known universe without getting attached to fancies and fantasies.

[Bluerthanblue]

150. no, not

whether you believe in fairies or gnomes Mondo Joe,( and we've danced this waltz of words before- you and I) But that you insist on proof or evidence to entertain any excitement or expectation of something which is not yet proven.

I ain't gonna change you- nor you me- and we'll both get our answers someday- if you are wrong, I for one promise not to 'rub your nose in it'- and if you are right, that'll be the end of it.

peace.

[mondo joe]

151. Oh I can be excited about things like hobbits, elves and ghosts.

Just don't ask me to believe they really exist.

[ComerPerro]

123. meh

[SmokingJacket]

124. Zombies!

We will all become zombies!



on edit: short answer is No

[Bluerthanblue]

128. we 'came' from something- we 'go' to something- it not necessarily

fact that seeing is believing- there is much i cannot see, yet not only believe but experience- Wind- fragrance- feelings- internal change- gravity- etc

Life in the womb for all of us, was an existence where we never before had drawn in a breath of air, experienced the brightness of the sun, the true full effects of gravity, or the intensity of touch -
The death to our existence in the womb, (called birth), changed our 'world' dramatically- the death of our existence in this body, i believe is simply another transformation.

A monarch Caterpillar moves around on legs, eats leaves and lives a far different existence than it does after it curls itself up in a milkweed leaf, becomes encrusted in a gold trimmed shell, and for all intents and purposes dies. What emerges from the 'dead' shell of the Caterpillar is a transformation of the original 'life'- one that we, with our limited ability to 'see' everything that may exist- are fortunate to witness. And the new 'container' for what was that Caterpillar, now does something beyond it's earlier imagining. It flies- free of the need to lumber about on the ground, and eats from flowers, drinking the nectar, not munching on leaves- We could look at the remains of the chrysalis mourning our Caterpillar, and miss seeing what the essence of that life has become- if we limit ourselves.

If we can witness that, and not believe that there is likely far more to 'life' than the shell that holds us- regardless of what our limited ability to 'see' may allow us- then we are blind indeed.

[Gregorian]

158. Blue!

I'm not stalking you. Trust me. I just started reading this post, and had really good feelings about it. Then when I looked at your username, I was surprised. It's really neat to keep seeing how similar we see things.

[Bluerthanblue]

170. you've got mail- !! n/t

[Zynx]

134. I believe in one. However, if there isn't I won't mind.

After all, if there isn't, I won't be around to bitch about it, will I?

[benburch]

144. It *would* be a delightful surprise.

And if so, I won't complain!

But, wow, would I have a LOT of questions!

[Bluerthanblue]

147. you think

alot like I do-(it sounds like) except deep down (at heart) I believe in many un-fathomable things- like miracles.

Saying that the worst will likely happen, is not actually being a pessimisist in its truest sense. Sometimes it is acting as a 'buffer' or a protection against the disapointment that comes if what we truly hope for doesn't 'appear' to come true.

One thing about the afterlife though- you may find that the questions don't matter once you are there. At least that's what I'm inclined to believe. Either they will be answered once and for all, or they will cease to hold any importance.

[mtnester]

149. I want to

don't know if I ever will be able to completely.

I mean, I want to be able to see my mom again, I try to picture her living in a wonderful Robin Williams "What Dreams Become" scenario, but somehow do not believe that exists.

I read the Five People You Meet in Heaven, and cry, and think maybe this is what it is all about...I guess for me that comes closest to what I can imagine anyway.

I am just too unsure myself.

I more believe we all revert back to one energy, but cannot image what that is like either.

So call me adrift spiritually.

[Cleita]

152. I'm undecided.

I wonder if it can be proved scientifically though one of these days. There is that unexplained phenomena in quantum physics, gravity. There is also the possibility of other dimensions besides the four we live in. What if we really live in five dimensions, the fifth being the life force or spiritual dimension. Since gravity seems to occupy other dimensions other than the ones we exist in, could it be possible that when our material selves cease to function, gravity will pull our spirit selves into the fifth dimension?

Just wondering. My head starts hurting when I try to understand quantum physics.

[Greyhound]

153. What is the point...

of debating an issue that we will all find the answer to, and won't be able to report back on?

[aikoaiko]

154. Christ, no! nt.

[Xenotime]

155. Huh?

[aikoaiko]

176. I was using Christ as an gramatical ejaculation, and No means no! ;-)

nt

[ProfessorGAC]

156. Not Really. Here's My Take. A Little Out There!

As the scientists here know, the universe can neither lose energy or mass, nor can it gain it. However, since it's continuously expanding, the threshhold continues to rise. So, the energy that makes up a human life goes somewhere else in the universe.

However, the ordering of the electronic signals we call the mind, is an indeterminate form of energy. It takes the standard EM force and orders it properly so that we can be who we are, and unlike the guy or gal next door.

That unique ordering is a very sophisticated form of energy capture and when someone dies, that entire ordering, which cannot be detected aside from personality, is lost. What i'd like to believe is that the "energy" that creates that order moves on, perhaps to other people, perhaps in combination with a million other folks' cerebral order on a higher plain of existence. However, the knowledge of that place is beyond the recollection of the "recipient" or beyond the capability of a single mind to recognize ahead of time.

How's that for out there?
The Professor

[Mad_Dem_X]

157. I refuse to believe that this is IT

I refuse to believe that I will NEVER see my family or my husband EVER again. IMO, what's the point of developing close, loving relationships if in the end it means *nothing*? That you could be Mother Teresa or Hitler, and in the end, same thing happens, regardless of how well or badly you lived your life?

Also, what about people (esp. children) whose entire lives are nothing but pain, hunger, suffering, abuse, etc.? I refuse to believe that that is all they will know. "Sorry your life was so horrible, but--oops!--there's nothing else for you."

Maybe I am wrong (and I'm sure lots of you here believe I am), but I would rather believe what I believe--regardless, I will find out the truth when I die.

[dchill]

160. No. But I'd sure like to...

Then I could be all giddy and righteous and judgemental and just plain mental. Oh, wait, that just probably means THEY don't really believe it, either.

[sepia_steel]

166. Yes. :) nt

[kskiska]

172. No, but as Woody Allen says…

I'm bringing along a change of underwear just in case.

[BurtWorm]

173. Decomposition or scattering ashes.

That's what I'm expecting.

[insanity]

174. I do.

If there isn't, oh well, it doesn't change my religion. Religion is not about beliving something to get payment.

[mnhtnbb]

175. You have to believe Bush is going to pay

I think a good punishment would be for him to spend eternity in Jimmy Carter's heavenly Sunday school class.

[grannylib]

177. I do; I believe I have gotten some messages from loved ones, and I am

NOT into that kind of thing (that TV show with that fruitloop on it who tries to contact people from beyond the grave and all that shit...)

Maybe it's the way I was raised, and of course, being a Christian, I believe in an afterlife, but as I said, I seriously believe that both my dad and my daughter have sent me messages, so yeah, I do...

[Bluerthanblue]

179. maybe a better question is "do you believe in death"?

or do you believe that everything that constitutes 'us' ceases to be in any form after we no longer occupy our human form.

we die a thousand deaths before our body stops performing-
As babies, we all need to learn that 'out of sight' doesn't mean gone forever- it's called object permenance.

Who is to say that we as adults have yet to 'grasp' that there is another 'sight' that we don't have at present, but that we will 'get' when we need it- that is when the next step of cognitive devolopment begins-

Who can 'see' or 'prove' the notion of 'thought'- yet, if it doesn't exist, neither does DU.- eh?

[MarsThe Cat]

183. since time is infinite, i look at it this way-

BANG!
the universe is 'born'...galaxies begin to swirl, solar systems develop, planets form...life evolves...we live...we die...life goes on...stars die...the universe collapses into a giant black hole...and-

BANG!
the whole thing starts again.

and we each get one life in each cycle-
be it as a human, an insect, or a butt-head from talos IV.

since time is infinite, the number of "BANG!'s" is infinite, and therefore the number of lives we live is infinite.

[laureloak]

185. At some points it my life God was all I had.

So lay off. Faith is important to a lot of people here on DU and I, for one, am tired of ignoramouses dragging it through the mud trying to be cute. If you really want to learn about Christianity why don't you visit a church and have a heart to heart with a minister.

[MarsThe Cat]

186. ignoramouses?

that's funny(even without the irony of calling other people "ignoramuses", and misspelling it), somebody who believes in fairy tale cloud beings- trying to comment on the intelligence of others.

:eyes:
whoo-boy....

[laureloak]

189. Not a fairy tale, it's just beyond you comprehension.

I didn't intend to comment on your intelligence, but about your total lack of understanding faith. Go to church and learn about what you are so quick to criticize. You might even be "saved".

[MarsThe Cat]

191. first of all- your original comment wasn't directed at me...

i was just commenting on the sweet irony of your post.

as to going to church- no thank you- been there, done that...I was raised in a church-going family, i went to parochial school all the way from k-12, and bought the whole spiel hook, line, and sinker.
fortunately, your god gave me enough intelligence to see thru the web of lies that men have woven to control the minds and actions of others.

the sooner you see the light- the better off you're going to be.

[laureloak]

192. Then you haven't had enough life experiences to understand.

Eventually it will happen.

[MarsThe Cat]

195. i've had plenty of life experience(s), and i DO understand-

those who choose to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient deity are generally missing...something- in their lives, in their minds, in their self-confidence or self-esteem, and they try to use god to plug the hole.

I have seen the light, and it's coming from the yellow star at the center of our solar system...not from any imaginary deity.

[BiggJawn]

188. I agree with you, Ben.

This. Is. It.

[mtnsnake]

190. No, but I'd love to back in 50 years and change my vote n/t

[ShrewdLiberal]

194. I'm not a substance dualist, I'm a property dualist, i.e., materialist

I believe that the mind is the same thing as the body, and that the mental properties superviene on the physical. When the body with all its physical properties dies, therefore, so goes the mental properties. I can't for the life of me understand the connotations of the concept of substance dualism.

How in Sam hell can two substances in humans be understood let alone be actualized, and explained semantically or syntactically? That our conscious experiences are a golden mean between polarity, one physical and one nonphysical? I highly doubt that farfetched senario of monistic hedonism, or general mysticism. The notion of nonphysical spirits seems implausible on its face, especially spirits that carry on after their vehicles perish. Mysticism seems blatantly fallacious, and especially Neoplatonic Catholic mysticism. I was baptized into the Catholic faith, but I've completely divorced myself from it.

I'm an evolutionary theist.

[CStrick20]

196. I am shocked that there are so many stupid people

kj

[Az]

198. Um... just gonna drop that little bomb and run?

No details? Not even an indicator as to who you are proclaiming stupid? I am reminded of a quote by Twain. It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

[beam me up scottie]

199. Sometimes I think they're little Tony clones

sent here to frame DU atheists.

[CStrick20]

200. Faith Belief in the afterlife and so on

Its pretty sad when people honestly will sit back and think there is a god and an afterlife cuase some little fictional book says so. Really, people need to do some investagation on their own and come up with their own views rather than following what their parents told them or parents believed, Considering you wanted to quote Twain here is another. In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.
Mark Twain

If people wanted to take an honest and real look into religion Christianity (murders) and the like maybe they should look at all the errors in the bible.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Friedrich Nietzsche,

[Az]

201. Sad? Because of a book?

Belief in such things predate that little book. Any competent sociologist or anthropologist will tell you that such beliefs are very common place. It is more notable when they are missing than when they are present. Just because some of us have struggled free of such beliefs does not mean they are stupid beliefs. Who knows. Perhaps we atheists are the result of a neurological anomaly and we are the freaks. There are studies to suggest such things.

People believe in gods. Sometimes brilliant people believe in gods. I find the notion that just because a person believes in gods they must be stupid to itself be a foolish position. I have watched too many brilliant theist debaters eat alive an atheist that presumed they knew more than the theist.

[beam me up scottie]

202. Oh great.

Just what we need.

Faith isn't about people wanting to "take an honest and real look into religion".

It's about belief.

And attacking people for their beliefs is arrogant and completely self serving.

It accomplishes nothing except to further divide the posters in this forum.

[CStrick20]

203. Its not about beliefs Its about facts

There is no god, making an outragious claim such as their being a higher power, the burden of proof is on the theist. Good luck finding anything close to proof of god. So until you can prove that there is god. Its factual information that god isnt real...

[beam me up scottie]

204. Ah, a real live dictionary atheist.

You're a rare breed.

Too bad you don't know what you're talking about.

Go stand over there in the corner with the other logic-challenged posters in this forum.

You might be lonely though, most of them are dogmatic in their belief that atheists are completely wrong.

[CStrick20]

206. I really dont care what people think

The fact remains that everyone who follows these books of fiction that they call religion are responsible for the death's of millions of people. The blood is on their hands. Also 99.9% of Theists dont even know enough about their own religion and only bother to get their information from their parents, who get their information from their parents and so on and all that is traced back to a time where you were presecuted, or murdered for not believing, it goes back to a time where Christians were going around the world and forcing other cultures to believe in their nonsense. Its sad that people are so weak that they have to rely on some magical being for support. JESUS NEEDS YOUR MONEY.

[beam me up scottie]

209. No, actually, the Talibornagain needs enraged and uninformed people

like you in order to stay in power.

Don't worry, they'll send flowers with a card thanking you for helping them vilify atheists.

I wasn't sure at first, but now I can safely say you're definitely not on our team.

[Az]

205. Really?

Yes, the burden of proof is on the theist. They have the positive claim. But that does not mean we get to run away claiming victory just because they have not come forward with evidence for god.

Science and logic simply do not work that way. Lack of evidence is not proof on nonexistance.

A fact would be that I do not believe in god. A fact would be that there is insufficient evidence to compell all atheists to accept the claim of god's existance. But we simply do not have evidence of god's nonexistance. We cannot prove negatives such as this. It's why we don't use the word proof in science (if we are using terms properly).

Science is an evidentiary process. It can only really chip away at things it finds to be false and promote theories about what it suspects is true. This creates a couple of problems. It can never prove anything in the absolute and it cannot prove a negative. We can provide ample evidence that there are no smurfs in the universe but unless we can search all of the universe in it's entirety in one moment we simply cannot come up with evidence of the nonexistance of smurfs.

Science and reason give us tools to increase our certainty of things. But they cannot give us absolute certainty. It is deliberately an open ended process. We must always remain open to new evidence that may overturn our conclusions. No matter how certain we are of them there is always a possibility that we got it wrong. This is the very thing that drives science and gives it it's credibility. It is self correcting. It can admit when it is wrong. But the price is never being absolutely certain.

[CStrick20]

207. As Long as you realize that the Christian God is as real as

Smurfs, i'll accept that. Atleast they know they are stupid for believing in nonsense.

[Az]

208. Ok, Why is it nonsense

See the problem you are running into here is that you are making declaritive statements with no evidence backing them up. As such they are just emotional outbursts. Such things have no place in a reasoned discussion and on their own carry no weight to convince anyone else of your position. In a word it is childish.

If you have an argument that specific beliefs are stupid or nonsense be prepared to defend the statements. Show your evidence. Make your case. Leave the emotional grandstanding outside though. It simply doesn't work.

[CStrick20]

210. You make no points

You say that there is a god because some book says so. Guess what, i am going to write a book right now, its going be about some magically pixies, created a snow globe, and our universe is located inside this snow globe, and we are all nothing but video games and being controled by a higher power, we are advanced video games. That right there has as much value as the HOLY BOOK. Infact that right there is significantly better because it doesnt ok slavery, degrade woman and tell people to murder people who dont believe. To argue the point it stupid. There is no god, there is absolutely no evidence of god or god like powers, everything that is in the bible has been wrong. Thats just how it is.

[Az]

214. I say there is a god?

Don't recall saying that. For the record I am an atheist.

Now why do you assume that individuals that believe in god do so because of some book? There are an aweful lot of beliefs out there. Not all of them recognise the book you are talking about as valid. Some even consider it a work of evil.

[salvorhardin]

215. You do realize you're arguing with two atheists (now three)?

Az is not proclaiming the existence of a god regardless of what any book says. He is merely pointing out that your statements are little more than emotional outbursts which do not do any of us any good. I'm pretty damn sure there are no gods whatsoever. However, I can not advance the position "It is fact there are no gods". Can't be done. I may have solid evidence for the lack of existence of certain gods, but I can never be sure that there isn't a god of which I am not aware.

[CStrick20]

216. Then you are Agnostic

Ive been able to come to the conclusion that there is no god, just like ive come to the conclusion that there is Gravity... also known as the "THEORY OF GRAVITY" because it there might be something else (Smurfs perhaps) but i accept gravity as fact, just like i accept that there is no god as a FACT. The Burden of proof is the Theist's who make outragious claims to prove those games... just like it would be up to the Gravity Smurfs.

[salvorhardin]

219. OK, we've played this game with papau and kwaasa

I'm not going to play it with you.

Gnosticism and Agnoticsim are related to knowledge (or a belief in knowledge).

Atheism and Theism are related to belief.

Whether a person is gnostic or agnostic says nothing about whether they are theistic or atheistic.

[Az]

220. I am quite certain I know what I believe or don't believe

I know I do not believe in any gods. I am without a belief in god.

As to agnostics. I challenge you to find someone that has sufficient knowledge of the universe to claim they know there is no god or there is a god. Do not confuse confidence for knowledge. They are drastically different.

I am very confident there is no god. But I cannot make a claim of absolute knowledge of this universe (or multiverse). You have a faith that there is no gods.

The claim that there are no gods reverses the issue of who has burden of proof. You are now making the assertive claim. And with that comes burden of proof. And now here is your problem. You have to prove that all possible claims for god are impossible. This includes claims for god you have never heard or could possibly not even imagine. You now have the burden of trying to prove a negative.

I am an atheist in that I do not believe in god(s). I am also an agnostic in that I do not have absolute knowledge of the matter. I do not bare the burden of proof because I do not claim there are no gods. I merely report the fact that I do have knowledge of which is that I do not believe in any gods.

[beam me up scottie]

218. Told ya.

Dicktionary atheist.

oops, that darn spell check must not be working.

[Zenlitened]

211. Smurfs?

:wow:

[CStrick20]

212. HEY!!!

HOW CAN YOU DARE SAY SMURFS ARENT REALY, THEY ARE MY GODS, MY SAVIORS, AND WHEN I DIE I WILL GO TO THE LAND OF SMURFS' IN A MAGICALLY GARDEN, IF I KILL SOMEONE IN THE NAME OF SMURFDOM, I GET 41 VIRGIN SMURFS...



haha religion and the belief in god is so stupid

[Zenlitened]

217. Subtlety not a strong point, eh?

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

213. Don't bloody your knuckles.

[salvorhardin]

221. So, was that Sifl or Olly? n/t

[Az]

222. Was gonna post a Sifl & Olly pic

But the dictionary quest tied me down.

[beam me up scottie]

223. I couldn't FIND one!

Of course, I was spelling Sifl wrong...

[catbert836]

224. I suppose it's different for each person.

The afterlife, I mean.
To some extent, I believe in reincarnation, and learning the lessons of life on this world- or others.
To some extent, I believe in the Tao, the source from which all life springs, which we go back to after death.
To some extent, I believe in nirvana, the place of eternal bliss where we go when we're ready, whenever that is.
To some extent, I believe in the fact that we continue to "live" here after our natural death until none of the living remember us.
To some extent, I believe in the kind of "natural" reincarnation, that the matter that makes us up will go on and contniue in many different living things.
To some extent, I believe we are all spirits living inside our temporary shells, which we call bodies.

I wonder if that means anything.

[Zenlitened]

228. Kind of a faith-based framing of the question, no?

I'd prefer to say we don't have conclusive evidence of an afterlife.

Kind of like extraterrestrials. They're either out there or they're not, so it's more a matter of evidence than belief.

[Odin2005]

229. There is no afterlife

The self is the result of brain activity, when the brain dies, the self goes with it. There is no soul, no inner essence pulling the strings.