Atheists too seek apology from Kentucky politician on Hindu ceremony remarks

[rug]

November 6, 2011 – 12:15 pm By News Desk

Nevada (US), Nov 6 (ANI): Even atheists have come out saying that Kentucky (USA) gubernatorial candidate David Williams “should be ashamed of, and apologize for his recent comments” criticizing rival candidate Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear for his attendance at a Hindu blessing ceremony.

Jon Eric Johnson, an atheist thinker, in a statement, said: Governor Beshear has shown himself to be a class act in the finest of American traditions of tolerance, respect and inclusion; whereas Mr. Williams’ pathetic and desperate attempt at divisiveness for political gain makes him a disgrace to his faith, his state, our country and humans in general. He should immediately retract, and apologize for, his remarks.

As an atheist I reject and do not share the belief in anyone’s god or gods; yet…I have very often stood and bowed my head during Christian ceremonies – not because I believe in God or Jesus but to show respect to and help provide comfort for fellow Americans that I value and care about, Johnson pointed out.

Annabelle Younger, a representative of International Society for Krishna Consciousness whose husband is a Church of Christ preacher, in a statement stressed that Supreme Being existed in the heart of every living entity. She urged Williams to broaden his knowledge of “Hinduism” and recant and refrain from blaspheming this third largest world faith

http://truthdive.com/2011/11/06/Atheists-too-seek-apology-from-Kentucky-politician-on-Hindu-ceremony-remarks.html

[MarkCharles]

1. Atheists have a thing about intolerance, and actions of government officials and

candidates that employ fear, ignorance, and their own religion as a means of gaining votes.

Christian politicians? Not so much do they have a thing about intolerance, nor about invoking fear to gain some votes!

Does the phrase "Ground Zero Mosque" come to mind? It was neither at ground zero, nor simply a mosque, but dozens of right wing politicians, and Christian and Jewish religious folks, many not from NYC, and Fox News idiots, all made this a national issue.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dmallind]

3. Poor Hindus - their PR appeal just dropped a few rungs.

The last thing a beleaguered and marginalized minority needs os an even more reviled group saying "us too - we stand together!" when the first lot are pointing out an injustice. Getting atheists on your side in a public dispute in the Bible Belt is like applying for a job at DU with a reference from Goldman Sachs.

[Jim Lane]

4. Alas, you make a good point.

Suppose that a bunch of us atheists/agnostics had issued a joint statement condemning Hinduism as archaic superstition. Suppose further that a Democratic politician had responded by attending a Hindu ceremony, and affirming his or her solidarity with the Hindus in the face of this attack by the irreligious. The net result would have been a boost for the Democrat and for the cause of religious pluralism.

So, should we be organizing a War on Diwali for Falafel Boy to denounce? It's too late for this year but November 13, 2012 gives us plenty of time to prepare.

[Vehl]

5. Quick heads up, Atheism has always been/is an accepted philosophical tradition in Hinduism

Some of the most respected Hindus have been atheists, even from the most ancient of times.


Thanks to half baked(usually colored by colonial-era literature about Hinduism..often written by Missionaries!) notions about Hinduism prevalent in the west; most do not realize that Atheism has been and is one of the philosophical schools of Hinduism.


Some quotes from Hinduism.

That 'nothing' is the essence from which that tree grew. That essence is the very self of this world, and 'That' you are.
Chandogya Upanishad, 6-12 • 500 BCE, India

Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
~Rig veda 1500 BCE

Fate or divine dispensation is merely a convention which has come to be regarded as truth by being repeatedly declared to be true. If this god is truly the ordainer of everything in this world, of what meaning is any action, and whom should one teach at all?
The Concise Yoga Vasistha, Translated by Swami Venkatesananda • State University of New York Press, 1984


Wisdom is born of knowledge and discernment. From wisdom arises an auspicious dispassion, the ability to calmly see things as they are and not to rush towards or away from things. This is superior to dispassion born of a circumstantial cause or an utter disgust. • The Concise Yoga Vasistha, Translated by Swami Venkatesananda; State University of New York Press, 1984

Here is a part of an interesting conversation between Rama, and his Guru Vashishta(considered one of the greatest sages of Hinduism...Hinduism has no founder nor central texts). Rama is the hero of the Indian Epic Ramayan.

Fortune or God is merely a convention which has come to be regarded as truth by being repeatedly declared to be true. If this God or fate is truly the ordainer of everything in this world, of what meaning is any action? The simpleminded who believe in God might well jump into a fire, trusting in God's grace to keep them safe. God will make us bathe, give to the poor and do our spiritual practices. What is the use of the exhortations of the scriptures if God will do everything? In this world, excepting a corpse, everything is active and such activity yields its appropriate result. In this world no one sees God, but we do see mind and intelligence. There are not two things, intelligence and God. Only intelligence is. If between two people of the same intelligence one fails and the other succeeds, God is not the cause, but laziness and effort are. If one thinks God is the director and doer of all things, let this whole world sleep, God will do everything. This may be a consoling outlook, but in truth, there is no God. It was foolish ones who created God. The followers of God will perish. The sages became so by individual effort. Please tell me why the heroic men of valor, the wise and the learned should wait for God? If astrologers predict that a certain man will become wise and he does so without ever studying - - then I will accept that God is great.

Rama, this sage Vishvamitra became a Brahma-Rishi by self-effort; all of us Rishis have attained self-knowledge by self-effort alone. Hence, renounce the chimera of God's providence and apply yourself to self-effort.

II 9 Rama asked:

"Lord, you are indeed the knower of truth; is God (daivam) real or unreal? You say there is no God, but also say that past Karma is God. Does God really exist? Please clarify."

Vasishtha replied:

Rama, self-effort alone is real; it does everything. The fruition of self-effort by which one experiences the good and evil results of past action is called fate or God by people. People also regard that as fortune or God which characterises the good and evil nature of such results. When you see that "this plant grows out of this seed", it is unwisely regarded as an act of God. God is a mere figment of the imagination. For I feel that God is only a word for one's effort and the effect of one's effort, in this life or a past one.

Rama, listen carefully and you will understand that God is only a myth. In the mind of man are numerous latent desires or tendencies (vasanas), and these tendencies give rise, in this life or another, to various actions — physical, verbal and mental. Surely, one's actions are in strict accordance with these tendencies, it cannot be otherwise. Actions or karma are nothing but those latent desires manifested. Action is not different from the most potent latent tendencies, and these tendencies are not different from the mind and the man is not different from the mind! God is nothing but karma; karma is nothing but the mind. Therefore, there is nothing other than self-effort (purushartha); God is a fantasy. All results are achieved by self-effort and not by providence or God.

Btw, I'm a Hindu Atheist, as are millions of Hindus.

[laconicsax]

6. I think you broke some brains.

Especially the brains that believe that large numbers of atheists automatically lead to mass murders.

Edit: Oh, and the ones that think that atheism is a distinct religion in itself

[Vehl]

9. :)

I get slightlyannoyed every time people parrot the popular myth about Hinduism ( holy cow! godmen/fakir millions of gods) while ignoring how diverse it really is.

"I think I have understood Hinduism correctly when I say that it is eternal, all-embracing and flexible enough to suit all situations."
~Mahatma Gandhi, as quoted in Relentless Brush Strokes : A Memoir


Even one of the most ardent of Missionaries, one who wanted to convert all of Asia, Monier Williams had this to say about Hinduism

"has something to offer which is suited to all minds. Its very strength lies in its infinite adaptability to the infinite diversity of human characters and human tendencies"
~ Monier Williams

This is the reason, that even with nearly 3 centuries of dedicated conversion attempts, only 2% of Indians are Christians :)

[AsahinaKimi]

7. I always found Hinduism fascinating

Perhaps some of the very basic ideas came eventually to Buddhism..Also, I have though often talked to my friend who is native American (Lakota), and he informs me, that he is facinated by Shinto because it is often similar to Native American beiefs.

[Vehl]

8. imho there is Absolutely no diff between some of the Philosophical schools of Hinduism,Buddhism

If I remember correctly, there is a Japanese saying that translates roughly into something like this
"Every person has three hearts, one which he shows to the world, one which he only shows to his closest of friends/family, and yet another one which is known only to himself"

Similarly In Hinduism there are many schools/flavors. It caters to the wishes of the followers..and because it has no founder or central dogmatic text, people have; over millennia come to pick and choose, and even add/modify Hinduism into schools of thought they prefer.

1 There are gods and deities(even these are considered to be but pointers to a singular god/goddess) for the masses which need something to pray to/ask boons of

2 There are philosophical schools which posit that man and god are but the same

3 and Finally there are also philosophies which posit that even gods can be transcended (similar to Buddha nature in Buddhism).


In Buddhism one finds something Similar, As a Tibetan Lama recounts

The Buddha taught three different kinds of people.

1 He taught ordinary people who just wanted to get rid of their own problems, who just wanted to live better with less problems. He taught those about cause and effect.

2 Then other people have the need for a rich inner life. They want to feel something, they want something to happen inside. They can't just be satisfied with getting out of trouble; they want something meaningful inside. And those he taught about compassion and wisdom, how to develop these qualities.

3 And finally, then, there was a group of people who weren't able to see the Buddha as a person or a man or something out there, but as a mirror to their own face, something showing their own potential. And those he taught about their own Buddha mind, their timeless Buddha nature.

Even though later generations of Buddhists (Incidentally Buddha never claimed to be starting a new religion..the term "Buddhism" was coined by his followers maybe a few generations after his death)claimed to be separate from Hinduism, for those of the philosophical schools of the Dharmic ways (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism) there was no real difference.

Especially Zen Buddhism, and the non-dual schools of Hindu philosophy(Advaita Vedanta) are almost identical to the T.
As an Advaita Hindu, I practice Dhyan(Meditation)...the word Dhayan, when it came to China, morphed into Chan...and later into "Zen" in Japan. Bodhidharma , known as Damo and Daruma in China/Japan was a great proponent of Dhyan.

When you look at Buddhism today, you see the major groups..the Theravadins and the mahayanists...The Mahayanists have almost become indistinguishable from the hindu philosophies which deal with gods and deities.

The Theravadins are similar to the other Hindu philosophies.

The "nothingness" Buddha speaks of and other concepts are already to be found in the philosophical texts of Hinduism which predate him, but most people do not know about them cos for them Hinduism = many gods :)


As a Hindu, I am very interested in the religious and philosophical traditions of the world. The Hopi and other native American mythologies, and the Celtic ones are fascinating to me. And I see a lot of similarities between the Shinto religious deities(kami's) and many local Hindu/Buddhist deities.

The Mayan Maize god will not look out of place in any Hindu/Buddhist temple :D

Mayan Maize God (South/Central) America


Hindu/Buddhist deity Hanuman


The Similarities are so striking!

[AsahinaKimi]

10. ooo!

The Mayan Maize God photo, the positions of the hands of the statue are so similar to what I have seen in both Hindu and Buddhist art pieces.

[Vehl]

13. Yep, that posture is known as the Abhaya("fear not") Mudra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra#Abhaya_Mudr.C4.81

[rug]

11. Do atheist Hindus believe reincarnation occurs?

[Vehl]

12. Some do, Some dont, as Reincarnation does not require god

The rule that governs Reincarnation in Hinduism/Buddhism is Karma. It is not subject to the whims of gods or men. (except for a few Hindu sects, most agree that Karma is like a law..which happens without preference or bias). In fact the some of the main Hindu schools also teach that even "gods" are subject to the laws of Karma. Interestingly enough in Hinduism (again, excluding the views of some sects) even the "gods" are but temporary. "Godhood" is a "position"..like that of a president. It can be achieved by anyone who is willing to put in the effort.

In other words..no amount of "prayer" to "gods" can get rid of the bad Karma. One reaps which one sows.

Self-effort, Rama, is that mental, verbal and physical action which is in accordance with the instructions of a holy person well versed in the scriptures. This will reveal the moon of spiritual bliss beyond the dark clouds of mental impurities. Such effort, continuous and constant, gives good results, all the rest is sheer madness.

It is only by such effort that Indra became king of heaven, that Brahmaa became the creator, and Vishnu and Shiva earned their place.

In Hinduism there is even a story of a Human who wanted to be a a god..and when rejected by the god of the universe(yes..the god of the universe is a relatively minor "god" position in Hinduism..as there are infinite universes..and infinite cycles of creation and destruction)..a Yogi created a new universe for that Human, where he could reside as a god!(of that universe)

In Hindu mythology its not uncommon to find human or alien(I use the term Alien here to refer to people who live in other planets, as claimed in the Hindu epics) heroes to fight gods or demons and win. eg: The hero Megantha defeated the God of heaven and came to be known as "Indrajith" (defeater of indra) for eternity.

Thus the term "god" is a very nebulous one in Hinduism..so is heaven and hell. Even Reincarnation is considered but an "illusion" or rather a "convenient truth" which will be transcended when a person is enlightened. The enlightened person supposedly realized that even death/birth are but figments of the imagination, and nothing exists but the universe (here the "universe" is meant as the interconnected reality that is found connecting all things)

[rug]

14. Do you think the existence of Karma requires physical evidence of it?

[Vehl]

15. I do.

That is why I do not believe in reincarnation.

However, in light of your previous question, even those who believe in karma can still be Atheists, as there is no God involved.

[rug]

16. Let me ask you about this.

"That 'nothing' is the essence from which that tree grew. That essence is the very self of this world, and 'That' you are."

Does that mean the essence of everything is nothing?

On edit:

I found a different translation of the section in context/

"Section 11

"The next example given is of a tree. When a tree is cut at its roots, sap flows out of the wound, but the tree stays alive. The same thing happens when the tree is cut at the trunk or the top. Because the tree is pervaded by life, it stands tall, rejoicing. However, when all the life sap leaves the tree, the tree dies, even though the sap is still intact. Likewise, whenever the Jiva withdraws from a body, that body is dead. But the Jiva that has withdrawn is not dead. The teacher tells Svetaketu “That Sat, where everything comes from, and merges in is everything in the universe. That truth is all of us. That thou art, Svetaketu!” Svetaketu still needs further explanation."

http://www.chinmaya-sanjose.org/new/2008LaborDay_ChandogyaCh6.shtml

This Jiva, as I understand it, is the essence of a thing that survives physical death. Do you require physical evidence of that?