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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:27 PM
Original message
The concept of "belief."
It is not true that all religions are based in belief; Buddhism for example, does not teach that belief is necessary.
Christianity makes "belief" central as a propostition central to its practice.
Belief can mean one has less than certain knowledge, but a lot of our ideas and concepts are of that nature.
In Christianity, the "believer" is called to belief as a first principle: Thus as a way to enforce its rule; Do you believe?
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe it is because
Christianity is based around the life of a man who is "believed" to have lived in real time and done a number of things that rather defy ordinary belief.
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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. "It is absurd, therefore I believe."
Old theological tenent.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Pretty much
because if it wasn't absurd, it wouldn't be miraculous.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've never understood the Christian obsession with 'correct' belief.
I think it much more important what one's commitments are. And we have such a shaky hold on 'truth.' After all, our best source of true information, science, has a method built on eluding falsification, or rather of falsifying what is not truth. But then I'm a UU, and so far it doesn't have a creed either.
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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Right.
I gave up on Christianity(and religion) when I realized they did not care what I thought, just my willingness to repeat dogma.
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dretceterini Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. If there is such a thing
as absolute truth, I don't think any of us will ever know what it is. Of course if you have a good PR campaign and billions to spend on advertising, you can sway 99.9% of the population to believe in anything...including the fact that Bush actually has a brain...
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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Same system.
Control the population. My rejoiner to Christian types is, "God doesn't want me to be stupid."
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I gave it up when...
... my Christian Sunday School teachers told me that the Greek gods were myths that were too incredible to possibly believe in, but Jesus (born without biology, walked on water, rose from the dead) was not only believable but must be worshiped.
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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Good point.
The older I get, the more sense those greek gods make.
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dretceterini Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I believe in Jesus
his last name is Gonzales. He is a hard worker and good guy. Lives just down the street...
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Only the very powerful get to change the Christian rules (like * and ID)
Much gas is passed about equality in Christianity, but it's an elite structure and unless you are an elite type no one will pay any heed to your view. Yours is to listen and learn the rules that the elite carve in stone or whatever. The real clinker is that these elite types don't even follow there own rules. Have you ever met someone that turned the other cheek? Who but a homosexual is not in danger going to Hell for looking at a woman with lust in his eyes (What about women?)
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Interesting
You are right, because Christianity has belief as a central tenet (the Nicene Creed, for example).

However, it is not so much belief itself as the idea that the act of believing is important to one's faith.

What examples can you specifically cite that deal with this (I'm curious)?
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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I think we are in perfect agreement.
You stated it exactly as I intended it.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yes, Christianity makes "'belief" central, as a proposition
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 03:53 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
central to its practice". But in Christ's description of the Last Judgment, he makes it clear that belief may be such that the believer is not even aware of his belief; in fact, observance of the Second Commandment, love of one's fellow man as an expression of the love (in spirit and in truth), however unconscious to the person concerned, of God (who, alone, inspires it), is pivotal to Judaeo-Christian belief qua religious faith - not conscious credence or adherence to a formal religious credo, desirable as this is, also, generally speaking, as a supplementary aid for the person in good faith.

I believe it is in St James' Epistle that we are reminded that the devils/fallen angels believe in God "and tremble". It is explicit in the accounts of Christ's exorcisms - the Gadarene swine story, for instance.

As sentient creatures, we live in a secular faith/knowledge continuum, a world in which there is a confusion of the concepts of secular faith(credence) and secular knowledge. I turn on a switch, and expect the sitting room light to come on. Though the bulb could have blown.

As human beings, we also inhabit a transcendental continuum of secular faith/knowledge-religious faith/knowledge. Even in physics, certainties are proper to the shallower, mechanistic, clockwork level. Although, apparently, even in physics, all knowledge that is not "a priori", is essentially statistical. And in the field of quantum physics, absurdities seem to proliferate the deeper it is penetrated. And why wouldn't it?

Einstein's discovery and proof that, uniquely in our universe, the speed of light is absolute, irrespective of the regular speed of the motion on the same path of the observer measuring it, indicates that light, unlike the rest of our universe of space-time, is a stand-alone reality, even as it penetrates our cosmos.

This, in turn indicates that, for example, all the raging arguments for and against Evolution, (in the latter case, to "prove" the sovereign status of secular science as the ultimate paradigm of all human knowledge), are a joke - since our wee universe is evidently a very subsidiary reality.

When even the wisest scientific thinkers identify what appears to them to be an absolute epistemological cul-de-sac, as far as the current development of their world view is concerned, they refrain from giving any further consideration to the matter, however perfunctory. It's normal.

But it does mean that lesser scientific thinkers will seek to defend the limited vision, which precludes considerations of the apparent implications of such a discovery as the sovereign stand-alone status of light, simply on the grounds, that they are very comfortable with the sovereign prestige they currently enjoy.

Although most of mankind keenly appreciates the benefits of science, it has learnt from bitter experience that it is never going to be the cure-all and substitute for religion as the respository of all truth that the worlds of business and politics, now so viciously entwined, would have them accept.

In the West, certainly, insofar as welfare states have been vitiated, science is prostituted to its pimp, big business, which allows its "faithful servants" to keep some of their earnings and share a little of their own status.

As regards light, many religions, from the earliest sun-worshippers to the mainstream religions of our day, have understood the pre-eminence of light in their faiths. Ironically, it was and is through the spiritual light of the Holy Spirit, which seems to be one of the poles of a "spiritual light/(quasi)material light" continuum, that its teachers were able to intuit it.

So, physical light/spiritual light acting in space/time informs our interacting secular faith/knowledge-spiritual faith/knowledge.

But in all considerations of knowledge and understanding, both spiritual and secular, the role played by the will of the human individual cannot be overstated (the functions of the human soul being memory, will and understanding). The deepest truths have to be taken on faith, if at all, whether it be secular or religious. And only in that way could God know the dispositions of our hearts. What does he care about a man's IQ! He knows that some of the biggest fools in creation are hot-shots at logic, but pitiful in their blindness to the fundamental truths, and hence the assumptions upon which they build their grand edifices.

In short religious devotees can no more prove the truth of their beliefs than secularists can disprove them; although Einstein's discovery of the stand-alone primacy of light over our universe of space-time and its contents, including the manifold interactions of light with and within in it, indicates that our secular knowledge doesn't amount to diddly squat, and it's high time the more benighted scientismificists piped down with their pet anti-religious manias, and gave some thought to the primacy of inductive reasoning over deductive reasoning - as the great innovative scientific thinkers acknowledged, and indeed were bound to. Certainly, Einstein and Newton.

The treatment of Galileo by the Roman Catholic Church of his day, was monstrous, as Pope John Paul II was pleased to publically acknowledge; yet ironically, in the final scheme of things, religious truths are sovereign (however frail the vessels to which they are, at least, in essence, entrusted), transcending secular knowledge/information, as the heavens above the earth.




















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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I can prove that "secular" is only used by Christians.
And prove it is a term of derision.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Well, it can be viewed as risible, I suppose,
in a rancorous kind of way, but I think, implicitly 'pejorative' would be more accurate. It's normally something we find sad, rather than risible. Not that I imagine you would take comfort from that, if you are anything like as angry and bitter as I was, as a young agnostic.
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jackthesprat Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. A personal attack.
How sweet. goodbye.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Good bye.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Don't take it to heart lad.
You'll find the world is full of disappointments, including some even that turn out to be blessings in disguise.
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