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Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-11 10:22 PM
Original message
The New Philistinism
Sarcasm and smart-assery are no replacement for actually knowing what you're talking about.


I once heard a fundamentalist preacher “refute” Darwin by asking rhetorically: “What came first, the chicken or the egg?” He didn’t elaborate. But he did chuckle disdainfully, and since his audience of fellow believers did the same, no elaboration was necessary. They all “knew” that he had just posed a challenge no Darwinian could possibly answer, and that was enough. None of them had ever actually read anything any Darwinian had written—and I highly doubt the preacher had either—but never mind.

Oddly, the rhetoric of the New Atheist writers—Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens among the most prominent—sounds much more like that of a fundamentalist preacher than like anything I read during my atheist days. Like the preacher, they are supremely self-confident in their ability to dispatch their opponents with a sarcastic quip or two. And, like the preacher, they show no evidence whatsoever of knowing what they are talking about.

Take Daniel Dennett. (Please.) In his book, Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon, he assures us that: “The Cosmological Argument … in its simplest form states that since everything must have a cause the universe must have a cause—namely God”; he then briskly refutes the argument by asking: “What caused God?"

In fact, not one of the best-known defenders of the Cosmological Argument in the history of philosophy ever gave this stupid “everything has a cause” argument—not Plato, not Aristotle, not al-Ghazali, not Maimonides, not Thomas Aquinas, not John Duns Scotus, not G.W. Leibniz, not Samuel Clarke, not Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, not Mortimer Adler, not William Lane Craig, not Richard Swinburne.

The New Philistinism


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Dawson Leery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-11 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. "The American Enterprise Institute"
-1
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-11 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. atrociously illogical and right-wing article. Unrec.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-11 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ho hum, courtier's reply.
It's so crass to say the Emperor is naked! What about all the clothiers who have written countless volumes on the exquisite detail of the Emperor's new clothes?

And what do you know? The right-wing gasbag who wrote this dreck refutes the notion of the Courtier's reply by saying that it's wrong. Sorry Sal, the point of the Courtier's reply is that the so-called sophisticated theological responses to Dawkins et al. are all simply begging the question. There's no proof for God; rebutting that by saying "but look at what so-and-so says" doesn't change that.

I'll admit, it's better than that time you posted a three-year-old already debunked quote-mine, but really. If you need to go to a conservative think-tank to find something you agree with, well...I'll just stop there.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Indeed.
First let's establish that the emperor is actually wearing clothes. Then we can discuss the delicate interwoven gold threads and impeccable tailoring. This is the essence of why "Courtier's Reply" is all that needs to be said.
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Leontius Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. How ironic.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. Great right-wing source there, Sal.
I guess anti-atheist hatred makes stranger bedfellows than politics.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Looks like a hit-and-run too.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. His specialty, sadly. n/t
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Can anyone distill the cosmological argument in a way that does NOT rely on necessary causation? nt
Edited on Fri Aug-26-11 08:17 AM by dmallind
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. My understanding of the cosmological argument is that some form of necessary being is the gist of it
The Kalam Cosmological argument does not use that terminology - it states that everything that begins to exist has a cause. That implies that something exists that did not have a beginning. That may be subtly different from a necessary being.

I don't remember seeing anything in the essay that contradicted that a necessary being is the basis of the cosmological argument.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Huh, I didn't even notice how old this article was until just now.
Devastating replies to it are plentiful. Here's a very succinct one:

http://kelosophy.blogspot.com/2010/04/courtiers-reply.html
The false equivalence in the analogy Feser draws is he's comparing a discipline where understanding the fine details is central to being able to refute that to a discipline which is contended it is not important to understand those central details. That is the essence of The Courtier's Reply. The question is whether the notion of God falls into the category of valid arguments.
...
The argument is that the whole premise is faulty, much like astrology. One doesn't need to learn its inner workings when the basic ideas behind it are untenable. The job for the astrologer is to show that there is validity to the concept to warrant looking at it internally, and I would say that theists have the same burden. Why should concepts like theodicy or questions regarding the afterlife be taken seriously? Until that is adequately answered, there's always The Courtier's Reply.


And the writer of your article, Catholic apologist Edward Feser, has also written screeds against homosexuality and all kinds of liberal principles. I'm quite proud to be an object of his disdain.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. Interesting essay. Thanks for posting. - n/t
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. Do you know who Edward Feser is?
Edited on Fri Aug-26-11 09:03 AM by LeftishBrit
OK, neither did I until I did a bit of Googling. But the fact that this was on the American Enterprise Institute site could have given a clue.

He is a conservative professor of philosophy at Pasadena, and he has a blog, 'What's Wrong with the World', which he introduces as follows:

'What’s Wrong with the World is dedicated to the defense of what remains of Christendom, the civilization made by the men of the Cross of Christ. Athwart two hostile Powers we stand: The Jihad and Liberalism.

We are happy warriors, for our defense is motivated primarily by gratitude for what our ancestors bequeathed to us. We are hardly what the world calls “optimists,” for our sense of the crisis of our age is robust indeed; but despair is among the more fashionable sins today, and our hostility to it, too, is implacable. We put not our trust in princes, but stand on the Solid Rock, against which neither the tyranny of the Crescent nor the blank negations of Liberalism shall prevail.

Jihad is the Islamic doctrine of aggressive war waged with the purpose of subjugating all non-Islamic peoples to the political and legal authority of Islam. It covers virtually all manner of crime with the shield of piety by blessing massacre, plunder, enslavement and treachery if these are judged necessary in the cause of Allah. There is nothing like it in Christian civilization. Its roots lie in the very antiquity of Islamic civilization, and though it is surely true that not all Muslims have committed themselves to Jihad, it is also true that the doctrine is at least latent in all Islamic societies. As such, it stands as an inevitable threat.

Liberalism is a more obscure doctrine to define. Its grounding, we believe, lies in the assertion of Man’s sovereignty over his own nature and destiny, his brazen defiance of God. In political philosophy its mark is the reduction of all things to some strictly materialist standard, whether openly atheistic or more subtly economic. It collapses the mystery of Man’s dualistic nature. Christianity has taught us, in the common maxim, that man is in the world but not of it. Liberalism posits that he is emphatically of it; and by its logic even the worth of human life is made subject to the whims and calculations of worldly interest. The reductionism also issues in a deep antipathy for natural distinctions of any kind; Liberalism in the end renders men incapable of judgment.'

He wrote in August 2010 about a judge's ruling against Proposition 8:

. Judge Walker’s decision, he tells us, is based on the principle that the state ought not to “enforce ‘profound and deep convictions accepted as ethical and moral principles’” or to “mandate own moral code.” But that is, of course, precisely what Walker himself has done. His position rests on the question-begging assumption that “same-sex marriages” are no less true marriages than heterosexual ones are, and that the only remaining question is whether to allow them legally. But of course, whether “same-sex marriages” really can even in principle be “marriages” in the first place is part of what is at issue in the dispute. The traditional, natural law view is that marriage is heterosexual of metaphysical necessity. Rather than staying neutral between competing moral views, then, Walker has simply declared that the state should stop imposing one moral view – the one he doesn’t like – and should instead impose another, rival moral view – the one he does like.


What we’re seeing here is just one more application of the fraudulent principle of “liberal neutrality,” by which the conceit that liberal policy is neutral between the moral and metaphysical views competing within a pluralistic society provides a smokescreen for the imposition of a substantive liberal moral worldview, on all citizens, by force. (Of course, liberals typically qualify their position by saying that their conception of justice only claims to be neutral between “reasonable” competing moral and metaphysical views, but “reasonable” always ends up meaning something like “willing to submit to a liberal conception of justice.”)...


All of this would be bad enough if the policy in question were a result of a popular vote, but Walker has essentially imposed his will on the people of California by sheer judicial fiat. Pope Benedict XVI has famously spoken of a “dictatorship of relativism.” But I think that that is not quite right. Most liberals are not the least bit relativistic about their own convictions. A more accurate epithet would have been “dictatorship of liberalism,” and in Judge Walker that dictatorship has taken on concrete form.



2. As with other issues, what will decide the “same-sex marriage” controversy in the long run are the attitudes that prevail in society at large, not this or that judicial decision, ballot measure, or piece of legislation. If a solid majority of citizens continue to oppose “same-sex marriage,” then it can be stopped and liberal advances can be turned back. If not, then conservative efforts will inevitably fail in the long run. So, if they are to have a chance of succeeding, conservatives must work to shore up popular opposition to the idea of “same-sex marriage.”



Social-scientific and pragmatic arguments have much intellectual value and some practical value in this connection. But where moral and social questions are concerned such arguments are never going to carry the day in a society whose moral and social trajectory is as firmly liberal as ours is. The advocates of “same-sex marriage” are motivated by a moralistic fervor, and their position rests (whether all of them realize this or not) on controversial metaphysical assumptions about human nature and the nature of value. If they are effectively to be rebutted, they must be met with equal and opposite moral and metaphysical force....



3. What this entails in the case at hand is that in order to challenge the legitimacy of “same-sex marriage,” conservatives have to be willing to challenge the moral legitimacy of homosexual behavior itself. To concede even for the sake of argument that such behavior is morally unobjectionable is effectively to concede the whole issue. Conservative moralists have always upheld the norm that sexual behavior and marriage ought to go together – both because sex naturally results in children and children need the stability of marriage, and because sexual passions are inherently unruly and need to be channeled in the socially constructive way marriage provides. To allow that sexual behavior need not be heterosexual is implicitly to allow that marriage too need not be heterosexual. Pragmatic social-scientific arguments about the possible negative long-range social effects of allowing “same-sex marriage” can only seem anticlimactic in the face of such a concession – heartless nitpicking at best, and the rationalization of prejudice at worst.'


And this from March 2010, about the healthcare bill:

...It has surely passed through the minds of many other Catholic politicians, particularly those who like to claim that their advocacy of socialized medicine and other left-wing causes shows them to be no less loyal to the teaching of the Church than Catholic pro-lifers are.



It is in any event important to remind ourselves of what the Church actually teaches, and what she teaches is not at all what such liberal Catholics think it is. To be sure, in line with statements made by popes John XXIII and John Paul II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does indeed speak of a “right to medical care” as among those the “political community” has a duty to uphold (2211). But does this entail that universal health care must be funded by and/or administered by the federal government, or indeed by any government? No, it doesn’t. Consider first that the same documents that affirm a “right” to medical care also affirm “rights” to “food, clothing, shelter” (John XXIII, Pacem in Terris 8) and “to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing” (the Catechism again). But no one claims that the Church teaches that governments have a duty to provide everyone with a government job, or free food, clothing, shelter, or other kinds of property at taxpayer expense, or a guarantee of entrepreneurial opportunities.



..This is especially so of something like a “right to medical care,” which, unlike such negative rights as the right of an innocent person not to be killed, involves a positive claim against others that a certain service be provided. Does the right to medical care entail that government itself must provide medical services? Or only that it provide citizens with the means to purchase such services? Must it provide them to all citizens, or only to those otherwise unable to afford them? What level of government is supposed to do this – municipal, state, or federal? Does it require government to force some individuals to become medical doctors, nurses, and the like so that the services can be provided? (They don’t grow on trees, after all.) Or is government involvement really necessary here at all? Is the right in question instead only a right that others provide those who need medical assistance with the means to do so in some way or other – through government if necessary, but through private means if possible? And if so, which persons in particular are supposed to provide this aid – family members and friends, churches and charities, or total strangers too? Merely noting that the Church teaches that people have a “right” to medical care (or to food, shelter, a job, etc.) answers none of these questions.



Now the Church definitely rejects the radical libertarian position that government can never, even in principle, justly intervene to help even the neediest citizens to acquire services of this sort. Catholic social teaching affirms the principle of solidarity, according to which we have, by nature, positive obligations to one another that we did not consent to and that the state as a natural institution can in principle step in to assist us in fulfilling when necessary. But the Church also firmly rejects the leftist tendency to regard governmental action as the preferred or even the only appropriate means of fulfilling our obligations to others. And she firmly rejects too the egalitarian tendency to regard our obligations as extending to all other human beings in an equal way. Contrary to what the libertarian supposes, the individual is not the basic unit of society; contrary to what socialists, communitarians, and many liberals suppose, “society” or “the community” as a whole is not the basic unit either. The family is the basic unit, and it is to our family members that our obligations are the strongest and most direct, with positive obligations to other human beings, though deriving from natural law rather than consent, becoming less strong and less direct the further they are from the family. Hence my obligations to the local community are stronger and more direct than they are to the nation as a whole; and my obligations to the nation as a whole are stronger and more direct than they are to the community of nations.


ByIt is important to emphasize that this is not a mere pragmatic consideration. For a central government, or any level of government, to intervene when it is unnecessary for it to do so is not merely not required. It is not merely unwise. It is, in the words of Pius XI, nothing less than an “injustice,”“gravely wrong,” a “grave evil and disturbance of right order.” It is disturbing, then, that the USCCB does not balance its emphasis on the Church’s teaching about the “right to medical care” with equal emphasis on the principle of subsidiarity ....

In particular, it is disturbing that no consideration of subsidiarity or the rights of the family seems to have informed the USCCB position on the health care bill, which, as I have noted already, seems to allow that the bill is acceptable or even required by Catholic teaching apart from the elements concerning abortion and coverage of illegal immigrants. How does respect for a “right to medical care” justify the federal government forcing every citizen to buy insurance, of a kind the government (rather than parents or individuals generally) decides the citizen needs? How does it justify increasing government power to determine for citizens what sorts of treatments are worth paying for? How does it justify moving towards a de facto monopoly as health insurance companies are transformed into heavily regulated government contractors? How does it justify the bill’s “marriage penalties”? Even apart from considerations of subsidiarity and the independence of the family, it is hard to see how such policies could be justified; in light of those considerations the policies seem positively immoral. Add to that the bill’s staggering increase to the already crushing debt we are facing, the dubious constitutionality of some of its components, the rushed and irresponsible way a transformation of one-sixth of the economy was cobbled together for political reasons without sufficient attention to unforeseen consequences, and the bill’s Rube Goldberg system of bribes and special breaks – as well as the USCCB letter’s admission that the bishops are “not politicians, policy experts or legislative tacticians” and thus without any special competence vis-à-vis the practical side of health care policy – and it becomes mystifying why the USCCB should think that, apart from the matter of abortion, the bill is something to “applaud” (as Cardinal George put it).'



Anyone who implies that government provision of healthcare and 'socialized medicine' is in any way morally wrong is a MONSTER OF PURE INDESCRIBABLE EVIL!!!!!

This is not the sort of person who should be quoted for support on a liberal site, regardless of anyone's views on religion.





On a more trivial level, there's a bit of irony is his complaining 'Like the preacher, they are supremely self-confident in their ability to dispatch their opponents with a sarcastic quip or two.' and then a couple of sentences later, indulging in the not-very-original sarcastic quip: 'Take Daniel Dennett. (Please.)'

I think that quite generally speaking there is a tendency for writers to indulge in sarcastic 'wit' rather than clear argument. It is not new, and is predominantly a feature of the 'clever' journalist, writing to a deadline on a topic about which they know rather little. Even scientists, novelists, etc., who can do a lot better, often imitate this style in debate. It may originate with undergraduate debating societies and the like. Certainly, it's not specific to atheists or religious people.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. I have to modify this to some degree. The blog is not *just* his
He did not create the blog, but he does contribute extensively to it, which is bad enough.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-11 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. So one of the propaganda organs, for the free-market ideologues, is flinging monkey-poo
at the new atheists, who themselves are flinging monkey-poo in the general direction of anybody religious, because (having, I suppose, misplaced their glasses) they are unable to distinguish any difference between the religious fundamentalists and everybody else

At this point, if I were a fan of monkey-poo-flinging fests, I might hope the circle could be closed by a barrage of monkey-poo aimed squarely from the religious side at the free-market ideologues. That would at least have some symmetry to it, and we could all watch the poo go round and round the circle

But the real question, to ask, is: why has this rightwing propaganda organ, for the free-market ideologues, chosen to take this particular stance at this particular time? AEI is not known for its careful philosophical analyses: it is known for its constant efforts to bolster a certain anti-regulatory agenda, that serves corporate interests. So one expects AEI has a particular concrete political objective here, and perhaps it is worthwhile trying to discern what that objective is



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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. The article was published March 2010. Feser's book (paperback edition), December 2010.
Edited on Sat Aug-27-11 07:09 AM by Jim__
My guess is that the article is more related to Feser's book than to anything on AEI's plate.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I do not know what connection, if any, Feser has to the AEI...
but it is very clear from his own site that he is a right-winger.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. And ...? The article linked to in the OP does not concern a left/right issue.
The article's main contention is that if you want to refute an argument, you first have to know what that argument states. That's not a left/right issue. That's basic common sense.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Well, that's *part* of what he says
He also claims that 'New Atheists' (all of them?) 'don't know what they're talking about'; etc. And this is in service of his defense of a Christian Right viewpoint, including religiously-based opposition to healthcare, etc.

It is indeed common sense that ideally people should know what an argument states before they refute it - so why do we need to go to right wing bloggers for that viewpoint?

I also think that even in these arguments he is somewhat hypocritical; e.g. he complains (rightly, but it applies to many people) that 'New Atheists' sometimes engage in sarcastic quips rather than addressing the issues. But he does the same thing, both in this article and in others.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. But AEI is a rightwing thinktank, which predominately exists to push a certain
rightwing corporate agenda through the Republican party

For the most part, mere philosophy has little interest in political circles: it becomes of interest, when it shows promise of being politically useful. Duns Scotus, for example, cannot have any immediate relevance to politico-economic struggles in the modern US

But the AEI is ALL about propaganda in a politico-economic struggle for rightwing corporate dominance

The rightwing Republicans have found it useful to support ideologies, such as "Christianity supports the free-market" through groups such as "the Family," and it is well-known that the current Republican coalition has required fundamentalist votes to succeed in recent years

So here is the rub: I can agree with the rightwing author of the piece that the "New Atheists" such as Dawkins or Harris or Hitchens are shallow in their philosophical experience and thought. And yet I can simultaneously suspect less than pure motives on the part of the author, suspecting especially that his piece is appearing on the AEI website precisely in hopes that it will help put theological garb on rightwing market ideology and so help consolidate the existing coalition of religious fundamentalists and free-market fundamentalists, to advance Republican fortunes; that is, I can think the author attacks atheist fundamentalists to keep religious fundamentalists in the Republican orbit -- a common and crass use of "religion" in support of a certain status quo
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Excellent points
'suspecting especially that his piece is appearing on the AEI website precisely in hopes that it will help put theological garb on rightwing market ideology and so help consolidate the existing coalition of religious fundamentalists and free-market fundamentalists, to advance Republican fortunes; that is, I can think the author attacks atheist fundamentalists to keep religious fundamentalists in the Republican orbit -- a common and crass use of "religion" in support of a certain status quo '

Though I'm a strong atheist, I think we agree on much more than we disagree!


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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Various other R/T regulars will not be so approving, I think, since my post pushes
"reading in context," a stance frequently and roundly jeered here
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Come on s4p, "reading in context" is only jeered when applied to unsubstantiated "holy texts"
that are full of contradictions, fallacies, and falsehoods.


Reading in context is very important, and in this case, you are correct.


Try not to use that broad brush so much, and I will do the same. Deal?
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Using this essay as an attempt to appeal to fundamentalists makes no sense.
Edited on Sun Aug-28-11 01:15 PM by Jim__
The opening paragraph of the essay refutes any supposition that this is the intent. The essay opens with an attack on the rhetoric of a Christian fundamentalist preacher. I doubt any fundamentalists reading the essay would get further than that paragraph. The attack on the preacher's rhetoric is not at all necessary to the point the essay is making; and another rhetorical example could easily serve as the foil.

Then, while still on the opening paragraph, the author identifies himself as an observant Roman Catholic. Hardly the stuff that funamentalists find attractive. AEI could easily have used a non-Catholic Christian philosopher to write a similar essay with much more appeal to fundamentalists.




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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said "rightwing religious" instead of "fundamentalist."
In any case, the question, that I asked earlier, remains: why is this on the AEI website? what purpose is it serving?

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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. We can speculate about why its on the AEI site; I doubt we can know.
The day before they published this article, they published an article, The Creedalists, on the influence that the Texas School Board exercises over text books. Should we question why they published that? Can we just accept that the thrust of the article, that the influence is not exercised with good judgement, is accurate?

The article, The New Philistinism, seems to me to stand on its own merits.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Actually, we can be reasonably certain that anything on the AEI website serves a propaganda purpose
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. ...
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -Thomas Jefferson
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. Pages of ad hom, desperate to attack the attitude of prominent atheist writers
because there are still, after centuries, no answers to the points made by atheists.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. Hey Sal, it looks like this didn't go over quite the way you had hoped, or prayed, huh?
Epic. Fail.
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