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Christians: If Paul had accepted Zoaster or Mani instead of Jesus on the way to Damascus

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 03:09 PM
Original message
Christians: If Paul had accepted Zoaster or Mani instead of Jesus on the way to Damascus
Would you still be Christians?

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. according to that naked archaeologist guy...
the land of Galilee had more than one miracle man. in fact there`s a few people who believe that another guy is the real miracle man.

hell who knows, the other guy could have been the rock star.

i think by the time paul was around both mani and zoaster was pretty much a forgotten characters
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Actually they were both pretty big
Zoatrianism lasted in Persia until the age of Mohammed

And Manicheanism and Christianity shared adherents. So much that Christians and Manicheans often worshiped together, and even shared some scriptures (all gnostic stuff)
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. thanks...
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Actually, I think he did accept Zoaster as well, but it only inspired him to a new way to bake bread
Thus the Zoaster oven. ;-)

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. And the doctrine's spread to Gaul
is why we have French Zoast.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. If Richard Dawkins were a sexist pig
Would you still be an atheist?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Ah but we are talking about two completely different scenarios
BTW, we have no knowledge whether Dawkins is a sexist pig or not. Yes, he made some sexist comments, and he has not apologized for them. Does that make him a sexist pig? Hard to say.

But back to the issue at hand - Paul of Tarsus was, as you know, responsible for the spread of Christianity across Europe. If he hadn't spread it - there is a chance that it would have remained an obscure Jewish sect. Of course, someone else could have spread it throughout Europe.

It's like (and if you say Godwin I will HURT you) Hitler and the Nazis. If we go back in time, and kill Corporal Adolf Hitler in World War I - does that mean the Holocaust has been prevented? I would argue no, being that Ernst Röhm was popular as well, and neither said anything that wasn't validated in the minds of many Germans at that time. Thus, he probably would have done exactly what Hitler did - the result being that no one is named Ernst for generations to come.

Going back to Paul - there is a good chance, however, that Christianity might not have taken off if not spread to Europe, and Paul was a person that was in the perfect position to bring it there. Jewish man working for Rome, access to all spots in the Empire. Sure, there may have been many Jews who worked for Rome, but with the exact circumstances that led to Paul's conversion?

Let's just say that before Ananias could reach Paul, someone else did - one who was a follower of Zoaster or Mani?

This means that Christianity does not spread to Europe, and instead either Zoastrianism, Manichianism or some third religion that we weren't expecting.

So - if Christianity wasn't the dominant religion of your nation, and your parents weren't Christians - would YOU still be a Christian?

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Paul worked for the Sanhedrin, not Rome.
n/t
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. OK he worked for the Sanhedrin
You're throwing up distractions yet again....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Deleted message
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Now THAT is a provocative question!
But I think the answer lay later in history, circa 5th Century AD, when the "synoptic" gospels were assembled and all other gospels and Christian beliefs were suppressed, in the context of creation of a monolithic and decidedly patriarchal church structure wedded to state power. The "authorized" scriptures were highly selective, as well as subjected to editing then and later, to serve monolithic power (including creating a historical narrative that served the powerful).

I do think that there is a core of brilliant enlightenment in the 4 selected gospels--very simple, "love they neighbor"--that real Christians today identify with, and that survived almost miraculously, given the history of these documents, not to mention the horrendous behavior of those who claimed to believe in that message. I'm not sure that I would say, "Yes, I am Christian," because of this horrendous legacy and its rancid impacts even today. I believe I am but I would hesitate to say so--because, to so many people--especially to powermongers--it means repression, hatred of women, hatred of the Earth, killing Arabs, "We're No. 1!," greed, selfishness, predatory capitalism and brainwashing. And as to brainwashing, "Paul," whoever he was, is the first of a very long list of woman-haters and powermongers who have forced their views on others in the name of Jesus.

I don't know about Zoastrianism or Manicheism. I tend to sympathize with the Pelagians--Christian lovers of nature, who were likely the models for the ancient folk tradition of wizards and healers who lived among the people in England, Ireland and Wales. (They were in other places, too, initially, but were pushed into, and fled to, those islands when the powermongers began to build a monolithic institution in Rome.) I believe that Pelagius and others like him saw no conflict between "love thy neighbor" and the neo-platonic "Pagan" beliefs current in the late Roman Empire, embodied by teachers such as Hypatia, and I think in fact that a synthesis of "Pagan" and Christian beliefs was in the works. There were Christian bishops during Hypatia's time (5th century) who revered Hypatia, the last neoplatonic philosopher and head of the Alexandria Library. They were her pupils. I've read the letters of one of them--Sinesius--to Hypatia. Her letters and all of her works and even her name were very nearly obliterated from history. She was a mathematician, and, above all, a believer in education. She was, in a sense, the best of the Roman Empire (which had a widespread educational system).

The Alexandria Library was the center of learning in the ancient world, and home to scholars of all religions. It was an extraordinarily tolerant city. Jews, for instance--who had scholars at the Library--were protected in Alexandria. As one of the most important citizens of Alexandria, Hypatia would quite naturally be open-minded about religion and highly tolerant. And she had Christians, including Christian bishops, as her students. I think she was personally raised in the hybrid Greek/Roman/Egyptian worship of Serapis but she would have been well-educated about and well aware of ancient Goddess and Nature worship, and likely had some religious practices in that vein. It is also very likely that she was an initiate in Eleusinian Mysteries.

The awful fate that Hypatia suffered, and other events, pointed me to this guess: that a synthesis of Christian and "Pagan" beliefs was in the works, among Hypatia and her students and admirers, and including tolerant, open-minded Christians like the Pelagians (and also the Gnostics). The contrary strain among Christians, of a militant and monolithic religion, that anathematized dissent and variety of thought and that sought state power, was simultaneously active, at that time, in Alexandria. Its leader, Bishop Cyril of Alexandria, was into mob rule. Mobs of Nitrian monks under his control attacked the Roman Prefect of Alexandria (a friend of Hypatia), conducted pogroms against the Jews and set upon Hypatia, and skinned her alive. (It was a belief at that time that flaying prevented the soul from going to Heaven.) In short, they FEARED Hypatia. Why?

Another thing that was occurring in Alexandria at that time was suppression of the Gnostic gospels, and general suppressions and book-burnings against all alternative views. A cache of these alternative gospels was preserved in sealed jars in a cave Alexandria and not discovered until the mid-20th Century. Shepherds had burned a lot of them for fuel. Among those that survived is a gospel that clearly presents Mary Magdalen as the head of the Apostles and the closest, most knowledgeable friend of Jesus. (It is the oldest gospel.) In general, the Gnostics worshiped both God the Mother and God the Father.

It was this more balanced view--of women, of Nature, of God--that was the specific target of the new "patriarchs" (a title coined by Cyril) who were gripped by a mania having to do with their own importance. And this was the poison infused into Christianity that is with us to this day. Male self-importance. This leads directly to the enforcement--often violent enforcement--of monolithic ideas by state power. State power requires a uniform set of beliefs by which people, land, resources and wealth are controlled.

So here is my answer to your question, as to labels anyway. I guess that what I am a Christian Pagan. I think there is no conflict between "love thy neighbor" and loving Nature. Indeed, the two have great affinity. To "love they neighbor" you must love diversity--all kinds of people. The great lesson of Nature is multiplicity--billions of species, innumerable plants, animals and insects here on earth alone, billions of galaxies, many kinds of humans. And that is the best practice in the intellectual world as well--love of diversity. Many ideas. Why should there be "one God," and "one 'authentic' Doctrine," and "one, 'Universal' Church"? This monolithic idea creates religious wars. ("We're No.1!") Could anything be more opposite to what Jesus said?

It's a very, very, VERY odd pairing--Christianity and war. It is a very great puzzle. I don't think it's easy to understand it. And I don't think that the powermongers and warmongers are all there is to it. There have been good Christians, including good churchmen. And there have been confused souls with mixed motives, like "Paul." Early on, there was quite a passion for EQUALITY--that is, opposing the late Roman Empire's hierarchical society and wealth-based power, and--most important--slavery. The earliest Christians were definitely inspired as to human rights and our brotherhood and sisterhood with each other. And there has most certainly been growth on this matter over the centuries. It was largely Christian-inspired people who eventually abolished slavery in our pre-modern era. But the poison also got infused, early on, that it is okay to kill and oppress and lie--and create a vast empire--to enforce this view. We see this TODAY--in the utter hypocrisy of our leaders when they claim to be bringing "freedom and democracy" to other people, by slaughtering a hundred thousand of them with "shock and awe" bombing. The Romans didn't engage in that kind of sophistry. Our leaders can't tell the truth, though, because too many of our people are actually the better kind of Christian and wouldn't approve of pure secular greed and "might makes right." They want our country, as a collective entity, to be better than that. Why? Because somehow--despite everything--they have gotten the message that what we, as human beings, should be doing, is "love thy neighbor"--and somehow that message survived "Paul"'s wrongness and all the wrongness that came after him.

It moves me now. "Love they neighbor as thyself." Has a better thing ever been spoken?

There are also Buddhists, and Jews, and Hindus, and Islamists, and many Indigenous worshipers of Mother Nature, and atheists and all sorts of people who believe in and act upon "love thy neighbor." I don't mean at all to claim that it is a unique teaching. But Christianity--the conveyor of this message to us-- is characteristic of the society that we inherited from England and Europe--by far the predominant religion there, and it still is here. It's part of our language, our history and our political discourse. And we have powermongers today claiming that, as a "Christian nation," we must do this and that. (Kill Arabs. Support corporate greed. Worship the wealthy. End Social Security.) (I mean it's just mindboggling how they use this word--"Christian.") What I'm saying is that I'm GLAD that there are still Christians around--real ones. There is something truly beautiful about the core message and about people who try to live it, for real. I'm glad that that message has survived its awful history at the hands of people who didn't really believe it. And I think it's time for the synthesis of the philosophies of "love they neighbor" that the truest of the early Christians dreamed of, that all real Christians have always dreamt of, that the early Alexandrian Pagans dreamt of, with their tolerance and their scholarly religious studies and their belief in education, and that ALL PEOPLE have dreamt of: a world infused with love, one for another.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks for the post!
I'm glad you took the time to not only think about it, but then articulate your thoughts in a clear response.

If I understand correctly, it really didn't matter who Paul followed, because when Constantine declared Rome Christian - he would have used ANY religion that would have suited him. Christianity just happened to be nearby and popular at the time. He could just as easily have chosen Zoastrianism and whittled it down to something that looked like the Early Catholic Church (which looked a lot like the Roman Pagan Church: Vestal Virgins, etc..)

I do wish more people, Christian, Atheist or whatnot, would pay attention - both to nature and to each other. But paying attention doesn't sell war.

I still remember an "argument," if you even want to call it that, with a neocon about the then-looming Iraq war.

I spelled out a very rational argument, showing how Sadaam Hussein could not have had WMDs, how the US is perfectly fine with brutal dictators like Charles Taylor of Liberia and how this was going to backfire.

Rather than respond to anything I said, he went right into a diatribe about "America, Mom and if you're not with us you're against us" several times saying jingoistic shit like "freedom isn't free" and he kept saying that, as a response, no matter what I said.

In short, he wasn't paying attention - to me or anything. He wanted war, he wanted death and nothing was going to deprive him of it.

This, sadly, is the problem we as a society face.

Despite our communication and our ability to take a picture of a birthmark on the head of a bald man from a satellite in space - we still do not LISTEN to each other. When we say we're listening, most of the time we are just thinking up what we're going to say.

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dimbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Very impressive piece of foresight on the part of Paul.
Accepting Mani who was going to be born almost two centuries later, in 216 CE, would have been impressive. Something akin to say Aaron Burr accepting Ronald Reagan.

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Leontius Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. If not Paul then someone else would have done his work
maybe not as well but it would still hvae been done.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. Unknowable.
Depends upon objective reality: If we're actually called by the Christians' God to be Xians then Paul wouldn't matter in the least. If it's just a nifty cultural thing and all random chance, probably not. You pick your assumptions and you get your answers.

But I think it unlikely that Paul would have accepted anything else. He was a Pharisee, trained in OT exegesis, and never left it. Xianity was an add-on, one that he took to be a direct fulfillment of the Scriptures he'd been trained in, but not a contradiction. The other religions would have meant actually abandoning his faith. (Yes, my impression is that Paul has been widely tampered with and he'd be rather pissed off at most people. I suspect he'd have some special ire for Constantine.)

You're right, in some ways. Paul had originally worked for the Sanhedrin, not Rome; fairly quickly, though, he stopped working for them and set up shop on his own. He had not so much use for Rome; his citizenship was handy, until it got him bundled off and out of circulation because, well, there wasn't much point in his case being resolved quickly.

Mithraism was, by few accounts, a big deal in Rome. We actually know pretty much nothing about it except what it's conquerors said, and that's probably both unreliable as well as being scanty. Gnostic thought would have gotten there--all roads led to Rome, roads are travelled by people, and people tend to bear religion and language. Polyglot societies tend to quickly become monoglot, but a society can bear a fairly large number of religions for a while before they all merge. Various letters in the OT seem to be trying to resist that happening to Xianity, but there's no evidence that the writers got their way.

Constantine needed, however, a specific kind of religion, one that could be easily pulled together and be hierarchical, one that was widespread enough to quickly become nearly universal, and one that had a tradition buried in it that could be turned to license empire and war. Xianity would have spread to Rome in a variety of forms in any event, and there's no good evidence that Paul's variety was even dominant in the strain that Constantine adopted. We don't know enough about Mithraism to say much about it, but mystery religions were based on mysteries, not public pomp. A lot of other religions at the time formed poor bases for empire. Even Rome had caesar as god--with the syncretism that their religions allowed, with each local religion somehow being the local expression of the same gods in other religions there still wasn't anything really unifying.

It might still be that Constantine still would have been able to adopt the same syncretic Xianity, a mix of various kinds of religions all poured into a bag labelled "Xian" with Paul's forged signature and a picture labeled "Jesus" glued onto a bag.

That still assumes that somebody would have taken Xianity to Asia and the Balkans, and for that Paul's Roman citizenship didn't count for all that much. He spoke Greek in a Greek-speaking region. It probably would have happened, if the apocryphal accounts of the other apostles hold any water.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good book proposing similar questions
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 07:47 PM by onager
Well, good if you enjoy alternative history...

What If? #2

http://www.amazon.com/What-If-Eminent-Historians-Imagine/dp/042518613X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

The first What If? book dealt with military history. But the second one opened up the subject to general history.

A couple of on-topic articles in the book:

What if Pontius Pilate had pardoned Jesus Christ? (Which assumes more historicity for Jeebus than many of us are willing to grant, but it's fun to play along with this one.) In this scenario, Jesus lives to be over 90...long enough to see the religion he started split into numerous battling factions. Good thing that didn't really happen! :sarcasm:

Until the Roman Empire cracks down. The Empire LIKES Xianity - heck, the religion's own founder told people to pay their taxes and not make trouble.

The Roman Empire establishes the One True Roman Church and backs it up with strong military force dealt out by the combined Emperor/Pope. The army of the united Roman Church crushes all pagan resistance in Europe. A few centuries later, it quickly eliminates an upstart new religion in the Middle East, Islam. Eventually, the Papal Fleet discovers a whole new world it can evangelize, in the Americas...

What if Mark Antony and Cleopatra had won the battle of Actium? - Alexandria, Egypt becomes a power center equal to Rome. Cleopatra's son by Julius Caesar, following the Ptolemaic/Egyptian tradition, marries his half-sister Selene - the daughter of Cleopatra and Antony. That makes for one formidable ruling family.

With its long tradition of belief in an afterlife and god-men, Egypt is one of the first countries to embrace Xianity. (Which is historically true.) After which Egypt becomes the world headquarters for the First Church of Jesus Christ - Alexandria.

Other interesting chapters in the book: What if Socrates had been killed at the battle of Delium? and What if Pope Pius XII had condemned the Holocaust?
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tortoise1956 Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. Well,
Since I'm not really a Christian (big C), I'm not sure it would apply to me. I would hope, however, that I would still adhere to a moral code that recognizes the difference between right and wrong, and that guides me to treat others with dignity and respect (when it is deserved).

In any case, I don't think that any current organized religion is the correct answer. As soon as they tell me they are only true path, they have lost the battle. Face it, if there is a supreme being and he (or she) has provided a road to salvation, I doubt very much that it would be limited to one narrow footpath. As far as televangelists, they are the reason I hope there is a hell, because that is what they deserve for their unethical and immoral behavior. And don't even mention Pat Robertson!

BTW, thanks for posing this question. I don't think I would have ever even considered researching Manicheanism and its tenets, until I read some of the posts below and disappeared into the mists of the internet to find out more. (I sure wish the internet had been around when I was a kid...although I can't imagine what my teenage years would have been like if I could have surfed all the porn sites!)



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