Pilots Refuse to Fly Atheist Banners

[n2doc]

Posted on: July 8, 2011 12:00 PM, by Ed Brayton

American Atheists contracted with a company that does aerial advertising to have them drag banners at various places around the country that said things like "Atheism is Patriotic," but 80% of the pilots for the company refused to fly the planes with those messages.


The planes were supposed to fly in 27 locations. However, the Fly Signs Aerial Advertising company reports four in five pilots, including some avowed atheists, have refused to tow those banners. As of last week, only 17 pilots in 85 signed on.


This may well be a violation of federal law, which forbids discrimination on the grounds of religion. If the tables were turned and people were refusing to fly Christian banners, you can be sure there would be a federal case made out of it.

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2011/07/pilots_refuse_to_fly_atheist_b.php

[and-justice-for-all]

1. Why the refusal?

Do they not believe in the freedom of speech?

[sharp_stick]

2. Because they're afraid

the sky-wizard will smite them out of the sky.

[Mariana]

7. If some of them are afraid

I bet it's not the sky-wizard that they're afraid of, but the sky-wizard's worshippers. They are real and some of them are dangerous, for sure.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

4. Because the followers of "Christ" might bash their head in with a brick?

:shrug:

[RZM]

9. I doubt they are worried about that at all

They are probably worried that it would cost them business.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

14. Ah! The blessed boycott mentioned in the Sermon on The Mount.

[RZM]

18. If you are an atheist and living in fear of being attacked, you are probably paranoid

I've been one my entire adult life. Never tried to hide it. I've never once had any sort of negative consequence . . . not even so much as a negative comment or a dirty look.

However, if I were a business owner, I don't think I would want to advertise my atheism because there are lots of believers out there and I would want their money. That was the point is was trying to make.

[dmallind]

20. Yeah Larry Hooper thought so too. nt

[RZM]

23. Larry Hooper of Lawrence Welk fame?

Not sure I follow. What does he have to do with this?

[dmallind]

31. which shows what you know I guess.

Everybody has heard of Matthew Shepard, nobody cares about Larry Hooper. Par for the course I suppose...

[RZM]

37. Still not following you n/t

[dmallind]

42. if you gave a rat's ass a ten second google would work. n/t

[RZM]

44. Well that's too bad. But I don't think that it happens often

One such murder in a population of hundreds of millions isn't exactly cause for alarm.

[dmallind]

91. Does it happen the other way round? Even with many times more believers?

Can you find one (and Hooper is not the only atheist killed because of his atheism) Christian murdered because of their beliefs by US atheists? Should be at least ten times as many if it's "no cause for concern", right?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

22. I agree with you.

[lazarus]

33. I've lost a job and been physically threatened due to my atheism

so, no, I'm not paranoid.

And the fact you admit a business owner couldn't reveal his atheism for fear of loss of business speaks volumes about the culture we live in.

[RZM]

43. I don't think it says much about our culture at all

Maybe if you're the only game in town you could do that, but consumers have a lot of options out there. Does it say something about our society that you might lose business if you hang a Confederate flag in Portland or a 'No more immigration' sign in South Texas or a 'Jesus is the Answer' sign in Crown Heights? Because all of those places contain lots of people who would probably prefer not to give their money to a business owner that does those things.

Same thing with atheism. There are a lot of believers out there and they don't have to give you their money if they don't want to. Doesn't mean you need to have a cross on the wall, but if you want to maximize profits, you might not want to put your different beliefs in their face.

Sorry you suffered negative consequences. That's not a good thing, but I don't think it happens all that often.

[lazarus]

52. some areas it's worse

I used to run a retail store in the deep south, and was constantly being asked by customers which church I attended. I had to do a lot of dissembling to avoid losing my customer base. It wasn't as blatant on my part as hanging a rebel flag.

[RZM]

53. Can't argue with that n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

74. I find it a lot more revealing about your attitude in comparing atheism to bigotry.

:puke:

[JoeyT]

75. Depends on where you live.

There are lots of places where a Darwin fish or the wrong t-shirt will get your car vandalized and score you some death threats at the very least. It might actually get you beaten, cut, or shot without any kind of warning at all. The guys from Top Gear almost got killed about 80 miles from my parent's house and all they were doing was making fun of NASCAR and country music.

They probably are afraid of having their head bashed in with a brick. In fact, if you go back to the original article, that's *exactly* what they're afraid of.

"I've been in this business for 20 years and I've never run into so much resistance on people flying," Jaye said. "I've had pilots who are actual atheists who said, 'Justin, I am an atheist and I won't fly it because I can't wear a bulletproof vest.'"

(excerpt from: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/30/atheists-flying-ad-campaign-meets-strong-resistance/

[RZM]

16. Delete. Wrong spot n/t

[Canuckistanian]

12. Small arms fire

It's not good for critical engine parts and hydraulics.

[tritsofme]

38. Only the government can deny your freedom of speech.

You don't have freedom of speech in a message board like DU either.

They can refuse business for any reason they like.

[frogmarch]

48. Why the refusal? Probably

the same reason I don't put atheist bumper stickers on my vehicles. I fear attacks on my vehicles and my person by bible thumpers.

[Drale]

3. I keep hearing over and over that Atheism is not a religion

so how can it be discrimination based on religion?

[Bragi]

5. All aboard! Spiral down with us now!

[Glassunion]

6. Key words "discrimination on the grounds of religion"

this would include a lack thereof.

[edhopper]

8. Well they are refusing based on their religion.

But as a matter of law it might be a violation of freedom of speech.
Though atheism isn't a religion, it falls under the category of religious ideas, since that is what the disbelief is.
So for legal reasons it might fall under religious discrimination.
discrimination either way.

[and-justice-for-all]

10. being an Atheist, I find the semantics to add nothing but confusion

Atheist is not a religion at all, never has been nor will it ever be. It should say 'Discrimination of the bases of freedom of speech' and not on religion.

I am an Atheist, I am without the belief in any god(s) or the accompanying dogma that comes with it.

[misanthrope]

17. Atheism is the base point...

...I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand this. The onus is on proof of existence, not the inverse.

[21st Century FDR]

32. Some atheists can be "evangelists"

They might be evangelizing a non-belief as opposed to a belief, but it's proselytizing all the same.

[Fuzz]

49. Evangelizing and proselytizing? Religious terms, both of them so bullshit.

Second, I have yet to see a door to door atheist or a set group for atheists who must live by certain 'dogma' in order to be a proper atheist.

Quit defining atheism in religious terms. Doing so is like saying not playing baseball is a sport.

[21st Century FDR]

50. They're flying airplane banners attempting to convert others to atheism

What else would you call that?

[Fuzz]

60. "Atheism is Patriotic" is evangelizing?

I see it more as a defense and a quit using bullshit arguments against us.

[21st Century FDR]

65. Like any other demographic, there are good atheists and bad atheists

Bad atheists would include that self promoting douchebag Michael Newdow, and the idiots who produce syndicated radio shows that come off every bit as hateful as anything put out by Salem Broadcasting or CBN.

Believe - or don't - whatever you want. Hell, if we wanted to be intellectually honest about it, we'd all be agnostics anyway. Since the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven, anything else is an act of faith.

[Goblinmonger]

81. Newdow? Really?

So you are fine with the use of "under God" in the pledge and feel that students should have to say it?

[21st Century FDR]

86. I don't think students should have to take an oath to anything

Not to God OR to the flag. It's a ridiculous ritual either way. But I'm not trying to make money from saying so.

[Mariana]

63. Where does it say they're attempting to convert others?

They are making their existence and their opinions known. That is all. Please don't make things up.

[LeftishBrit]

72. I don't think they're trying to convert people to atheism

They are trying to convert people to a rejection of the idea that belief in God is part of citizenship, and that atheists are unpatriotic. It's rather different.

Not that there is *no one* who wishes to persuade others to be atheists; but I don't think this is what is happening here.

[alphafemale]

64. That was my thought. Evangelical Atheism.

What's next knocking on peoples doors on Saturday morning?

[GillesDeleuze]

11. facepalm.

case law is pretty clear on this. you can't give preferential treatment to members of a certain religion.

[AlabamaLibrul]

58. /facepalm

[undeterred]

13. Maybe they're afraid of those surface to air missiles they have

at some of those church picnics. :shrug:

[Erose999]

28. Well there is very little difference in the agendas of the Fundies and the Taliban... and some of

the stuff on the civilian market now like Barret .50's are pretty much AA artillery. Especially for the planes that pull banners... usually single engine Cessna's or similar.

[JoeyT]

76. Doesn't take a surface to air missle.

These planes fly pretty low...well within the range of a hunting rifle. And it only takes one dumbass with a hunting rifle feeling extra-Jesusy to poke a hole in the wrong part of the plane.

[stuckinarut]

15. Have no FEAR!

His noodly appendage will protect thy aeroplanes!!!

[MrDiaz]

19. one question

"This may well be a violation of federal law, which forbids discrimination on the grounds of religion."

Is Atheism a Religion?

[lunatica]

21. Good question

I've been thinking the same thing. Why not just be an atheist and let others be what they are?

I don't follow any religion because I believe religion is man made for the sole purpose of controlling people. But I also know that what I believe pertains only to me. Others believe what they believe and that's fine with me. None of us really knows, which is why it's a 'belief'.

[RebelOne]

24. Answer to question: Atheism is not a religion, It is a lack of religion. n/t

[lunatica]

25. So why do so many atheists try to cram their lack of religion on others?

It isn't like they know the answers any more than anyone else does. It's just as much a 'belief' as any religion is.

[RZM]

27. Some do, but most don't

I certainly don't. I respect the beliefs of others and I try not to denigrate other religions because I think that's bad form. Not all atheists would agree with me, but most that I know do.

[seabeyond]

45. that was my experience with atheism, until i came to du. nt

[RZM]

46. I've seen some intolerant atheists here, but I think most of them are just showboating

It is a web forum, after all. Many of those people would probably hold their tongues in different circumstances. I'm still confident most atheists are more tolerant :)

[seabeyond]

51. i have never felt the need

for someone to hold their tongues.... really, honestly. my kids were in a christian private and after a couple years the school became fundamentalist, angry, loud. my kids would often, consistently disagree adn discuss, but always respectfully and with love. so though they were different.... they were appreciated and valued and respected. which is a pretty good lesson for kids so young.

i am all for atheist and their right to speak out. i dont believe in not expressing.

but i value respect. not ugly

[LeftishBrit]

87. I think DU includes people who are understandably bitter because of the influence of the

religious right in their areas, and are therefore indiscriminately against all religion.

But it's not just one way. I had rarely been directly exposed to such hatred of atheists as I have observed in a few people on DU.

As I have said, I have no problem with religious people, of any religion - I do have a problem with religious right-wingers and political anti-secularists.

[Fumesucker]

62. Atheism can be either belief or a lack of belief..

The distinction can be a little difficult to get for some, "I believe there is no god" is a belief, "I do not believe in god" is a lack of belief.

The first is a gnostic position while the second is an agnostic one, atheists come in those two basic flavors.

[Humanist_Activist]

73. Question, in what way are we "cramming" our lack of religion on others?

All we are doing is trying to show religious people that we don't grow horns or have a fucking tail. In some cases, we simply reach out to "in the closet" atheists that they aren't alone, and for some reason religious people have a problem with that.

[Mariana]

84. By talking about it publicly.

Atheists who make their existence and their opinions known are cramming their lack of religion on others. Of course, all the countless thouands upon thousands of billboards, signs, bumper stickers, T-shirts, radio and TV spots, etc. that carry religious messages and church ads are not cramming anything on anybody.

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

[LeftishBrit]

80. Most don't.

There are people who are aggressive and bigoted in promoting anything, including atheism. But often when people are accused of pushing atheism, what they're really pushing is church/state separation.

[Mariana]

66. How, exactly does displaying an ad

stop others from being what they are?

[JoeyT]

77. The same way legalizing gay marriage will destroy straight marriage.

When a minority is allowed any freedom whatsoever, it automatically destroys all freedoms for the majority.
Because we all know freedom and rights are a zero sum game.

[Hosnon]

26. I don't think Atheism has to be a religion to qualify.

Likely just "on-topic", which it certainly is.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. "discrimination ON THE GROUNDS OF religion" is not "discrimination OF religion". -nt

[sudopod]

56. It is

when you're trying to convince an Atheist to love Jesus using pedantic word play.

It is not when the Atheists try to assert their civil rights.

[TheManInTheMac]

29. Some people claiming to be atheists feel the need

to form a congregation and raise money to spread their message to people who couldn't care less? Only a matter of time before they start going door to door handing out pamphlets, I suppose.

And who's the fool that came up with "Atheism is patriotic"? That's just nonsense.

[struggle4progress]

30. This is silly, from beginning to end: it's a silly waste of money to promote a vague message

like this, though of course American Atheists has every right to spend their money to do so; it's silly for pilots to refuse to tow the banners, though of course the pilots can certainly refuse to do so if they wish; and it's silly to claim this is a violation of federal law, though of course anyone who wants to make that ignorant and erroneous claim also has every right to do so

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. Bar owner: ''I won't serve Jews.''

Is that legal too?

[tritsofme]

41. It doesn't say he would refuse to fly a "50% Off Matresses" banner for an atheist customer

Just one promoting a message he disagrees with. The pilot would be similarly in the right by refusing to fly a banner with Jewish or any other political/religious/any message he did not wish to endorse.

[struggle4progress]

47. The answer is probably: it depends. Your analogy is not on-point. I further consider it

rather insensitive, given 20th century history

And I expect you would probably recognize the flaw in your legal theory, if you remembered some of the threads here from time to time about media refusing to carry advertisements

[JoeyT]

78. It's not silly for them to not tow the banners.

They don't want to get shot out of the sky by some redneck, and I don't blame them.

If I were one of the pilots I wouldn't fly that banner either. I'm an atheist, but I also like having my internal organs on the inside of my body and uncooked.

It doesn't help that I don't care that much about the messages either. The only one so far that I've liked is the "You Are Not Alone" one. At least that had a point.

[struggle4progress]

83. Most people don't shoot at folk they disagree with, and most of those who do shoot

only do so after working themselves up to the act by long morose contemplations

[MineralMan]

34. A company that has planes that fly advertising around

can discriminate like this all they want. There's no federal law requiring companies to advertise a cause with which they disagree. It's stupid of them to do so, since it will cost them money, but federal laws do not apply to this.

It's amazing how few people understand this. Truly amazing.

[tritsofme]

35. Sounds like the First Amendment working perfectly to me.

An atheist can make any banner he likes, but the pilot is under no obligation to do business with you or make a spectacle of his company in such a way.

One individual's freedom of speech does not hinder the business owner's freedom to associate and contract.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. See #39. -nt

[mn9driver]

54. Newspapers, magazines, billboards and TV discriminate all the time

They don't accept all kinds of advertising. Their business, their choice. Since an individual pilot is required in order to present this message, that individual is free to refuse the job and it is up to their employer to decide whether to fire them for it or not.

Take the case of pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions. Unless they go way over the line and refuse to get another pharmacist or even transfer the prescription to another store, they face no consequences except from their employer. If they engage in abusive behavior directly related to their professional responsibility, then they will in most cases answer to their professional state board.

A pilot's refusal to fly a particular banner has no direct relationship to his professional responsibilities.

[lynne]

55. Is Atheism a religion? They'd have to prove it was a religion -

- to make this stick. And if atheism is a religion then I'm guessing that they're not really atheist, are they? LOL!! :crazy:

I got no problem with people sticking up for and acting on their beliefs and that extends to the atheist who want to make their opinion known as well as to those who are refusing on religious grounds to do so.

Definition of "religion" - noun: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
noun: institution to express belief in a divine power

[sudopod]

57. Oh god that's so clever.

it is on par with this brilliant argument from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

Regarding the Babelfish:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".

"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

[lynne]

68. If you can disprove my point, then do it. Otherwise, don't litter the board.

If you're going to argue that it was illegal for pilots to not fly the banner as it infringed on the atheist religious rights, then you need to show how atheism is a religion. Based on what religion is defined as, I don't see how that dog is gonna' hunt.

I'd also be interested to know when language no longer had any relevance to legal matters or to interpretation of the law. Pop us a URL to prove that point while you're at it.

BTW, great copy and paste. Bet your parents are proud.

[sudopod]

69. Here's the thing:

Merriam Webster does not get the last say in determining what words mean for legal purposes.

Also, though there is no rigid legal definition of what religion is that I can find as a layman perusing Google, there are several instances where people who lack of belief are specifically listed as a protected minority. For example, in an eariler thread about Abercrombie and Fitch getting sued for firing a Muslim woman due to her hijab, this bit from EEOC.gov describing Title VII in the Civil Rights Act came up:

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/qanda_religion.html

=====
Title VII’s prohibition against disparate (different) treatment based on religion generally functions like its prohibition against disparate treatment based on race, color, sex, or national origin. Disparate treatment violates the statute whether the difference is motivated by bias against or preference toward an applicant or employee due to his religious beliefs, practices, or observances – or lack thereof. For example, except to the extent permitted by the religious organization or ministerial exceptions:
=====

Koresh help us the day we start revoking people's rights based on some half-assed pedantic wordplay.

It's not even funny.

[AlabamaLibrul]

59. "discrimination on the grounds of religion" != "discrimination against the 'religion' of atheism"

n/t

[sudopod]

61. No man, we lost. She used definitions! We can't stand against that!

She threw the book at us! IT'S IN THE DICTIONARY, MAN!

[octothorpe]

67. I'm sure another business will happily take their money...

I wouldn't be angry if a company refused to fly a religious message, so I can't be angry about this.

Guess we'll see what the court decides.

[dimbear]

70. Google 'advertising plane crashes towing banner'

to see how risky this occupation is, then factor in crazies. Crazies with lasers, rifles, and Bibles.

[onager]

71. Wow. Lots of Rectal-Milliners spouting off on this one.

So here's another on-topic thread about the banners that all you atheist-bashers should enjoy. In fact, some of the posts above sound like they were lifted verbatim from this link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2744217/posts

[sudopod]

79. lol nt

[humblebum]

82. Depending on the part of the country, for instance Bible belt vs. the Northwest,

it could cost the pilot a lot of business. I'm guessing that's one big, and understandable reason. Little doubt that a confirmed atheist pilot would have trouble advertising a religious message.

[cleanhippie]

85. "Little doubt that a confirmed atheist pilot would have trouble advertising a religious message."

Prove it.

[humblebum]

88. I'll see if American Atheists have a plane and pilot they'll loan me

to fly a banner with John 3:16 over a population center. That should do it.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

90. So, no, you cannot prove it, you just made that up.

Thanks for your honesty.

[dimbear]

92. If you ever have a chance, don't miss out on an atheist confirmation.

Beautiful ceremony. Love the costumes.