No True Scotsman

[rug]

Sal Bentivegna was an atheist, but Jesus answered his prayers and now he believes. He gave his mom a hard time about her faith, even mockingly prayed for her to win the $1 million in the New York Lottery. When his wish came true he changed his mind and highlighted a serious lack of critical thinking skills.mHere’s what happened,

"Sal Bentivegna, 28, who did not previously believe in God, had sarcastically asked his mother to ‘ask your God for a million dollars.'

* * *

"The following day his mother bought a ‘Lotto Tree’ of unscratched instant win tickets from her Church’s charity auction. Sal was then left absolutely stunned when he found out his mother had won a million."

* * *

People believe winning some money, having an illness healed, or getting a green light when they’re running late are signs of god’s miraculous favor in their lives. All the while people all over the world are suffering. There are many things a god could do to make this world a better place, but fails to do. Considering all the unanswered prayers in the world the type of faith that says, “Jesus gave my mom a million bucks so I would believe” is grotesque.

http://www.atheistunderworld.com/2011/05/28/former-atheist-claims-jesus-pays-out/

[ZombieHorde]

1. I am not sure what your subject line is about.

Are you claiming the No True Scotsman fallacy is demonstrated in the article by the author, the newly converted, DUers' response to this story, and/or the triple asterisks in your OP?

[Warpy]

2. Either he wasn't much of an atheist or it won't be much of a conversion

I still think most of this stuff is hard wired.

[dimbear]

9. A million bucks isn't what it used to be. They're not savvy investors or

they wouldn't be buying lottery tickets. I give him a year tops.

[InvisibleTouch]

3. What exactly IS the "No True Scotsman" fallacy?

I've heard the term for years, but never saw a definition of it.

I have my own ideas as to what generates a sudden influx of riches, healing, or green lights in a person's life, and it's not an externally-projected "god" - but I will leave it at that.

[Fumesucker]

5. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The term was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking: Do I sincerely want to be right?.<2>
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking

A simpler rendition would be:
Teacher: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Student: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Teacher: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.

When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A"

[InvisibleTouch]

6. Ah ... so if someone doesn't fit the mold...

...then they may be a Scotsman but not a TRUE Scotsman, according to the one passing the judgment?

Kinda like, "No REAL American would believe (fill in the blank)"...?


And yeah, I'm not sure how it relates to the OP, unless it's to say, "No true atheist would come to believe in god"?

[Fumesucker]

7. It was a remarked upon event because it's a fairly rare one..

IMO of course.

Yep, no _real_ American would...

No individual or group is perfect.

[struggle4progress]

13. It's, like, when Robert the Bruce said "Scotsmen always lie"

[cleanhippie]

4. Were you trying to make a point? What is it?

Unless you are in agreement that it is absurd to give god credit for the good stuff but not for the bad, than I don't see what your point is.

[darkstar3]

8. Would you care to elaborate on how you believe NTS applies in any form here?

[struggle4progress]

10. Clayton Morris Promotes Prayer As Way To Win Lottery

... Today, Fox & Friends went beyond the usual affirmation of faith by invoking what was presented by Clayton Morris as a "miracle" ... Morris reported that a "man's faith has been restored thanks to a dollar and a dream." He introduced his guests Sal Goodman and his million dollar lotto winning mother, Gloria Bentivegna ... Goodman said that before the lottery win, he .. told his mother that she should ask Jesus for a million dollars. When she said that it doesn't work like that, he said he would ask Jesus for a million dollars. Goodman noted that he was being "facetious" and not serious about praying ...
http://www.newshounds.us/2011/05/29/clayton_morris_promotes_prayer_as_way_to_win_lottery.php

You can pretty much count on Fox to run "stories" like this

[TrogL]

11. Wrong fallacy. This is "undivided middle"

[tiny elvis]

12. the first and last sentences

the rest is distracting
rug offers a conversion as a witness to holy things
that is the evangel's way
i think rug is trying to see nts in the criticism of a comic conversion
as if to turn the tables on someone
however, good rug,
the fael! in nts requires that the failer deny in practically so many words that the subject is authentic or a fellow
that is not what the writer did, nor did he mean that there are real christian conversions excluding this one
the scotsman is overused to the point of misuse on this board already


hie ye hence from me heath

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. I guess the lesson here is...

People who are atheists but are also idiots tend to not stay atheist for long.

[iris27]

15. Confirmation bias wins yet another soul for Jesus.

But I do not think NTS means what you think it means.

[rug]

16. Is that a variation of he wasn't a true atheist?

[iris27]

17. Is that what you were trying for?

I don't think anyone in this thread (with the possible exception of Warpy) has said anything like that, though, sorry.

[rug]

18. So he was a true atheist?

[darkstar3]

19. There's no such thing. Just like there's no true Christian, or true Scotsman.

"True" in this usage is an unqualified modifier that serves to render the phrase meaningless. He was an atheist. Now he is not.