If religion went poof overnight and all the sudden no one believed in it,

[cali]

would the world be a better place? I have to argue no on this. The problem is humans not a specific manifestation of human imagination.

[The Magistrate]

1. True Enough, Ma'am: People would simply Create Fresh ways To Screw Themselves Up

As the engineers say: people are the problem.

[RandomThoughts]

2. Thats the nice thing about being due beer and travel money.

I don't have to do anything to earn it, and don't have to worry about screwing anything up, since I am not earning it, it is already due.

And actually when I think that playing a song is outside of the flow, but still funny, I don't mind playing it, since it is not about earning anything, I am already due beer and travel money.

[The Magistrate]

5. Incitatus Was Consul In 793, Sir

[RandomThoughts]

10. Not sure who that is.

But Google mentioned Caligula, and as far as I have heard, that guy had issues.

I don't like much of the Rome systems, and actually the lack of democracy is what allowed an unqualified person like Caligula to become an emporer.


I do like the Star Trek Episode Bread and Circuses.

And the Britney song Circus.


Britney Spears - Circus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhJ_A8XUgc




But not sure about the rest of that :)

[The Magistrate]

16. Surabaya, Johnny!

[RandomThoughts]

17. Could you add more to your post.

So I can know what you think, and not what some google search says about it.

[The Magistrate]

18. Cherrywood Has A Really Nice Tone To It, Sir: Just Looking At Some In The Sunlight

[RandomThoughts]

22. I am interested in what you think.

Are you able to speak plainly about your thoughts.

[The Magistrate]

25. Cooked Too Many Potatoes For the Pot-Roast Last Night, Sir; Probably Boil Some Eggs, Make A Salad

[RandomThoughts]

28. Ok then.

When asked why calling things by their right names was so important to good governance, the Master replied: "What a boor you are! When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."


You are in agreement that the Orwellian usage of naming, and marketing for purposes of misinforming society creates bad effects, accept that you may favor trying to confuse people and actually be defending misinformation.

Interestingly, the attempts to distort or confuse a society with marketing labels, or use of noun replacement is really old ideas.

So you are aware of marketing, and how it can create problems, but your use of phrasing does not seem to indicate you completely disagree with such usages.

Thanks for the thoughts. Although I would suggest adding weather you think that is bad or good for a society.

[The Magistrate]

29. Your Best Play Now, Sir, Is Blackwing --- Ghibli the Searing Wind

[RandomThoughts]

30. You shifted.

You changed to telling me what you think I should do, you were not happy with last comment, and felt it initiated some sequence.

Where before you were just posting without linkage, you now attempt to engage with tendency of control thought.

Thats enough, thanks for the conversation, have a good day :)

[The Magistrate]

33. And Shafted, Sir

"We can dig it!"

[SidDithers]

34. Brilliant subthread, good Sir...

:thumbsup:

Sid

[The Magistrate]

35. Thank You, Sir

"Don't try and out-weird me. I get weirder things than you for free in my breakfast cereal."

[quaker bill]

4. Well said sir.

Of course they already do, so the process would simply continue.

I hold the same argument with Libertarians about government: if it were all to disappear tomorrow, people would promptly begin to reinvent it.

These are both natural products of the human condition.

[The Magistrate]

7. Very True, Sir

And the people inventing it would not be of libertarian bent....

"This is the best world possible; everything in it is a necessary evil."

[quaker bill]

26. True sir

However, curiously the people reinventing it might well believe they were of a libertarian bent. Cognitive dissonance is a very real thing.

For a living, I answer to the calls of folks seeking government intervention and assistance. It is a source of constant amusement how many of them believe "government is not the answer" while at the same time calling on government for the answer. That people "should be able to do what they want on their own property", except for their neighbor....

We are not the people we often think we are.

[divvy]

3. If it is not practical to remove the "problem" (people)

Then why would it be improper to learn a new world view?

There is a difference between appetite and taste. You are arguing that there is nothing else able to satisfy (destructive) religious appetites. However, if we had an equally strong appetite and went to the tasty-freeze together, you might select the avocado-peach dole whip and I might choose the chuck wagon bronco burger.

There is a strong cultural, time, and geographic component in religious affiliation. With a blank slate, maybe the menu could be re-written.

[Sky Masterson]

6. I think if people quit believing in an afterlife and realized

that they only had one shot on this planet that the world would be a better place.
Religion is just a control mechanism to me.
I never understood how suffering and sad people worship a god that allowed them to be sad and suffer.
I wish we could truly evolve as a people and stop believing in magic and cloud people

[Skittles]

8. the world would be a far, FAR better place

no question about it

[cali]

11. why? do you think human nature would be magically transformed?

[eqfan592]

40. No, but religion makes very bad use of....

...the mechanism that is human nature, but beyond that it encourages a suppression of critical thinking skills and rational thought. Removing these barriers would only be a positive.

[trotsky]

46. Best Post of the Thread.

This is exactly it. By encouraging - sometimes demanding - the suppression of critical analysis in one area, you enable it to be used in others.

[dmallind]

50. Not magically , but transformed yes

Religion is a subset, but by far the biggest subset, of a major contributor to one of the greatest evils of "human nature". Human nature of course is molded by experience, within the bounds of neurology and physiology. The problem of religion is not that it makes people able to be vicious or greedy or vain - atheists are just as prone to these attributes of humanity. The problem though is that it supplies a huge majority of the perception that something else/better is more important than humanity. Political causes and national/tribal identity can make people devalue others, but religion does so more effectively because it introduces an external and supernatural cause, and often a reward system too. Telling somebody to die or kill for humanism is unlikely to be too successful; telling them to kill for socialism is possible; but people are both willing to kill and die for religions, even more so when they are assured of rewards after death (whoever heard of an atheist martyr?)

Take away religion and there are no gods to say the Amelekites must die, and no paradise waiting for you they kill you first. You may still want to overthrow or subjugate Amelekites, but you will do so weighing the risks to your only life more severely, and more willing to consider what of value living Amelekites can provide even if you win.

Anything seen as more important than human life presents a great risk to it, depending on the interpretation of those who so value it.

[dimbear]

54. Whoever heard of an atheist martyr?

Socrates.

That was the crime of which he was accused and for which he was executed.

[dmallind]

58. ...and corruption of youth. In an unsubstantiated hagiographic tale. nt

[Deep13]

63. That's just it.

Human nature does not act in a vacuum. It does good and bad things in response to what people perceive around them. Religion is a powerful lever that makes people act the way those pressing the level want them to act. Think of all the shitty things people do to each other and to the world just because they think god wants them to do so. With that motivation removed, they would not act that way.

[ejpoeta]

9. since religion is a way to make sense out of a senseless world, then people

would just find another religion. that's just how it is. and there would be the people who know this about people and will use it to control people and get their money and to get power.

[cali]

12. yep.

[eqfan592]

41. Then explain non-religious people?

Clearly we manage to get through life making our own sense of this "senseless world" without religion. Is there some reason that others could not do the same if the indoctrination they experience through the formative years of their life were removed?

[ejpoeta]

43. we manage. people deal with things in different ways. some people

drink. some people go out and coach football. some people turn to religion. we all deal with things in different ways. we all have different coping mechanisms. i remember when i had my miscarriage. I went to the park with my kid and my niece and nephew and I think the worst part was having people know because then they try to help you feel better. The MOPS (mothers of preschoolers)moms met there once a week during the summer. So one of the moms tells me that maybe going to church would help me feel better. I said politely as I could, no it wouldn't but thank you very much. To me it was like if someone said, here have a drink of vodka to drown your pain. To me it is the same thing. Now, that may not be the case for all people who go to church and do the religion thing. But I think that is the case for at least some of them.

[eqfan592]

45. I can't disagree with what you are saying, but...

...the hypothetical offered up was religion suddenly going "poof" and no longer being an option, so to speak. My point was mainly that I believe people would find new ways to deal with things without religion and that religion is not a requirement.

But I do see what you are saying and agree completely. Honestly, sometimes I let my anger about religion get the best of me and go off the handle at people, but I'm very passionate about education and when I see what religion does to our science class rooms it makes me extremely angry. It's not something I'm proud of, but it is the truth. Something I have to work on.

Also, for what it's worth, you have my sympathies. My wife and I have gone through that twice now (once well before we were married and once very recently).

[ejpoeta]

48. oh, i know what you mean. i remember a kid i used to walk to school with when i was a senior in

high school. he kept inviting me to go to church with him and i politely would decline. Then one day he went off and had the temerity to ask me what it was that turned me away from god. I then in turn went off on him. I told him he was just a kid and didn't know what the hell he was talking about and that you can't truly believe until you have questioned those very beliefs. i think i he stopped asking me after that. lol.

i don't have problems with people believing. whatever it takes to get you through the day. the problem is that a lot of people aren't truly believers. they need to somehow put it on the rest of us to keep them honest or something. as if keeping those of us out here from having abortions somehow keeps them from doing it or keeping gays from being gay keeps them from doing it. i don't know. that has more to do with control than beliefs. true believers don't need YOU to believe for their salvation. they don't need to force it on everyone else. it's enough that they live it and believe it. in fact, they don't have to keep telling everyone all the time either. my feeling is that you have to keep telling everyone you are a christian, you aren't.

the crap they are pulling with science is the scariest thing because we are already hurting in the education department against the world. other countries are surpassing us on so many things and this is just one more nail in our coffin. And i have kids who are going to have to live in the world with the kids who are being taught this flat earth crap. the only hope we have is that these kids are going to see the falsehoods of it and it will open their minds... if this isn't true what else isn't true. i watched real time and dylan ratigan said when they can manipulate facts, then democracy is dead (i can't remember the exact words) but that is basically what he said and i think he is right.

[verdalaven]

13. Speaking as a former believer, current atheist

No.

True, many bad things have been perpetrated in the name of religion, but if religion wasn't a factor those same people would have used some other excuse to do bad things. People are people. The elimination of religion wouldn't change that.

[eqfan592]

42. Have to disagree.

Removing one of the bigger reasons why people tend to mistrust each other (different religions) could only be a positive. Sure some would find other reasons, and it wouldn't solve all of the worlds problems, but it would get rid of a good number of them.

[scheming daemons]

14. Watch the movie "the Invention of Lying".... great example of this idea

[dipsydoodle]

21. Thanks for that

I just watched the trailer and then ordered it through amazon.co.uk over here.

[scheming daemons]

15. "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him" - Voltaire

...

[mwb970]

19. All I know is....

When I hear someone say something stupid, cruel, and un-American, that person is virtually always (a) a "Christian", (b) a conservative, (c) a republican, (d) speaking in a thick rural drawl, or (e) all of the above!

This is just something I have observed.

[Kolesar]

20. The world would be "incrementally" better, but not perfect

If you want a glimpse of how it would trend, look at Britain or the Scandanavian countries where half the people are non-believers. I say "the trend is your friend".

[deacon]

23. it's not the cause. It's about convenience. Political ideologues looking for justification. n/t

[mmonk]

24. I don't think it's that easy. On the positive side, I think many people would find

being a good person isn't dependent on belief of a deity. I think they would discover a connection to others who are different and discover and develop a natural and true form of human empathy. They might also realize that fear of others and that the dehumanization of others which sometimes religion facilitates in its more fundamentalist form is counter productive to compassion and human advancement. It might provide a desire to improve the here and now while we go through life's journey. Things would not be as a tribal.

That said, religion brings organization. It's what is organized as to what is important to us all. If the religion in question is one that concentrates on being good through good works, it has a positive power.

[SidDithers]

27. Maybe. Maybe not....

but wouldn't it be nice to give it a try?

Sid

[YellowRubberDuckie]

31. I think there are people in the world who are too stupid to live without religion.

Or at the very least without someone to think they're answering to. Think about it. I live in Oklahoma, land of the Fundamentalist Douche Bag. Most of these people would cut you without a second thought. But they are "Christians" so they are just rude instead. I think religion actually keeps a lot of people from killing each other. It's a shame, because some people do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us. Religion gives people hope that this isn't all there is because this place sucks most of the time. I find it to be something invented to control people and keep them from killing themselves by eating raw pork and dirt.
Just some random thoughts.
Duckie

[BanzaiBonnie]

32. Although, "The Second Coming"

A British mini-series by Russel T. Davies, makes a good point for this. It's really worth watching. Brilliant!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(TV_serial)

[obxhead]

36. I think it would.

Part of the problem, especially with Christians, is that many believe that they can do whatever they want and as long as they repent everything is ok. They never suffer any true consequences in the God they worship.

I remember an older Simpsons episode where they ask Bart what religion he would choose if forced to choose one. He answers I would be a Catholic. Why? Because I can do whatever I want my whole life as long as I apologize for it just before I die.

[Evoman]

37. Dunno. Can we try it to find out?

[dimbear]

38. Check out the few historical examples where this was tried.

Aftermath of the French revolution of 1793, aftermath of the Russian revolution of 1917. Result: temporary abeyance.

Religion is part of human psychology, getting rid of it is a little like a lobotomy. It makes you happy at first.

[struggle4progress]

39. It has been the work of millennia, to exorcise spirits from the world, by recognizing

that we projected ourselves, good or evil, into our perceptions of things. But it is not a finished work, and we will not finish it

We think we can easily banish our demons, but we cannot. Instead, we lie to ourselves that we have no demons, even while we unavoidably turn our desires into heartless stone-cold fetishes that blind us as we worship them. None of us ever actually frees himself or herself from all our idiotic idolatries -- though we often pretend that we have done so

[ZombieHorde]

44. Wouldn't be a perfect world, but it would be a better world.

Especially for homosexuals, women, atheists, and scientists. Those who are all four would definitely have reason to rejoice.

The environment would get more attention because the end of the world wouldn't be just about to happen. I have an in-law who says environmental laws are not needed because God would not allow the Earth to perish. God will heal the Earth.

Atheists commit less crimes than theists, so crime would decrease.

The world would definitely be a better place without religion.

[PassingFair]

61. Especially in the middle east , India and Africa.

Real damage done in those countries due entirely to religion.

[toddaa]

47. I'm too much of a pessimist to say yes

But getting rid of religion, especially the organized, top down, monotheistic ones, would be a nice start. I have a soft spot for pagans and occultists, so I think I can be open to those who practice in private. Even Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have mystical sides, that can be practiced in private, or in voluntary community, without crossing into the public sphere. I guess my hardcore, militant atheism isn't very pure.

Any religions willing to accept scientific knowledge, and change in light of evidence is fine, but that is something that most religion refuses to give ground on.

[Iggo]

49. Perfect? No. Better? Obviously. (n/t)

[Deep13]

51. Yes. nt

[Nihil]

52. Different? Yes. Better? Not convinced.

> The problem is humans not a specific manifestation of human imagination.

I'm with you on this.

If there was no religion to get worked up about, there would still be
something else to provide arbitrary distinctions between groups and,
although there would be tolerant & accepting members of society across
the spectrum of the other arbitrary distinctions, the response/reaction
from the extreme ends would be every bit as bad as when the "arbitrary
distinction of choice" is religion.

:shrug:

[grasswire]

53. this is an amazing random thoughts exchange with the magistrate

Ping

Pong

Ping

Pong

[sudopod]

55. Middle East suddenly has nothing to fight over.

PROBLEM SOLVED

[okasha]

57. Nothing except oil, territory and cultural differences.

Which is what they're fighting over now.

[cleanhippie]

59. Correct. But they would no longer be able to hide behind religion as the excuse.

Which is the reason they are using now.

[sudopod]

60. Well, it surely wouldn't solve the problem of godless suicide bombers. nt

[trotsky]

65. Ah yes.

The vast reserves of oil underneath Israeli territory. I had forgotten about that!

[LAGC]

56. I can think of one place where getting rid of religion might not be such a good idea.

Prisons.

Especially people who are serving Life sentences or are condemned on Death Row and have nothing left to look forward to in life. Just day after day of boredom and no fun until their bodies slowly deteriorate and eventually fail them.

For many of them, faith is all they have to cling on to, to provide hope and justify their continued existence.

I seem to recall a study in one of my early college sociology classes that argued that prisons facilitating religious services helped pacify and quell violence levels in prison environments. That could be why most modern prisons have chapels, but most jails (which only hold inmates for short-term) do not.

[Deep13]

62. Yes, because it would turn off a powerful engine of division and hate.

There would no longer be divine approval for immoral, destruction action. To take an extreme example, 9/11 would have gone from destroying God's enemies and winning a martyr's reward to being simply murder. Children would no longer lie awake at night worried that they were going to hell for thinking the wrong thing. There would no longer be a justification for slavery or the extreme oppression of women in the Muslim world. There would be no Brahmans or untouchables. And there would be no more Creationist school agenda or opposition to gay rights.

[Douglas Carpenter]

64. some would argue that nationalism became the new religion in most of the world over the last couple

hundred years. Most so-called religious wars in the last few hundred years are deeply wrapped up in nationalist sentiment or involve conflicting claims of nationalist movements where religions role is that of legitimizing nationalist movements or nation-states.

In the western world few people kill for God anymore. Far fewer would consider it acceptable. Even outside of the West - killing or dying for God is rarely considered acceptable except in support of a nationalist movement or under orders of a nation-state. Both inside and out side the West, religion may at times help legitimize violence - but usually in the context of violence carried out under the cause of country, homeland or "ones people".

In most of the world it is nationalism not religion that is the far, far greater suppressor of critical thinking and silencer of voices of dissent. The fear of being labeled unpatriotic or disloyal is far more apt to shut people up and switch off peoples' critical faculties.

The question of how to get people to behave themselves is something the state alone cannot do. It does not appear that that social evolution has engineered the human condition to the point where reason alone can successfully achieve that either. Why should a person be kind or compassionate? Why a should a person restrain themselves from selfish undertakings in situations where they are unlikely to get caught or at least suffer censor? Religion has generally been the force that provided those restraints - even if it also included a fair amount of repression along with necessary moral guidance. To remove from the human condition this force might very well produce some very unfortunate consequences. Perhaps even misguided values founded on an illusion are a lesser evil than no values.

[LiberalAndProud]

66. How can we know?

There are some aspects of the Christian faith that are troublesome.

The belief that I find most troubling is the idea that God will take care of everything. Global warming? No worries. Judgment day is nigh and God is going to provide us with a whole new, entirely perfect world. It is foolish to struggle to protect this one.

Our understanding of the universe in which we live has been hobbled and continues to be hindered by disbelief in science that so many Christians are prone to. They cannot reconcile the two, so science, not religion, must be at odds with the truth.

The idea that those living with injustice, poverty and oppression here and now will be rewarded and comforted in the next life tends to make people passive in the face of injustice, poverty and oppression. We will be rewarded for our troubles in heaven. No worries.

Biblical teaching has contributed to oppression over and over in our history. It has been used to justify slavery, torture, war and murder. Today we find many Christian people who believe that gay people should not have rights, that God requires that we must kill Muslims in our holy crusades. Immoral acts are justified by God, and it makes me ill.

I haven't mentioned the role that religion plays in the lives of women. I believe we women have internalized the second class status prescribed for us. The wicked Eve has consigned us to an eternity of subservience to men.

Yet, I know a good many Christians who don't believe this way. They believe that the prophets and Christ exhort us to create a better society. And these individuals and their organizations work for many good causes and strive to improve our world in very important ways.

Do the various belief systems that are called Christianity balance each other out? I cannot say.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. There are many other things to kill one another for

1. Political differences: The aftermath of the Russian revolution, for example, or the Chinese Cultural Revolution

2. Ethnic differences: Darfur, where both sides are Muslim, or the Basque separatist movement, where both sides are Catholic

3. Language differences: India had language riots when the government tried to make Hindi the sole official language and remove English. (India has two main language families. One consists of Hindi and other languages of northern India, and the other consists of Tamil and other languages of southern India. Having Hindi as the sole official language would put southern India at a disadvantage, while English is foreign to everyone.) Belgium had language riots in the past.

4. Natural resources: During the Vietnam War, there were persistent stories of oil reserves in the Gulf of Tonkin, but the mainstream dismissed them. Years later, it was revealed that there is indeed oil around the Spratly Islands off the coast of Vietnam.

5. Lust for power: Why did Alexander the Great try to conquer the known world? Because he wanted to.