Catholic Scholars To Boehner: Your Agenda Defies ‘Church’s Mo Ancient Moral Teachings’ On Helping

[cleanhippie]

Catholic Scholars To Boehner: Your Agenda Defies ‘Church’s Most Ancient Moral Teachings’ On Helping Poor

“Mr. Speaker, your voting record is at variance from one of the Church’s most ancient moral teachings” of caring for the poor, they write:

Your record in support of legislation to address the desperate needs of the poor is among the worst in Congress. This fundamental concern should have great urgency for Catholic policy makers. Yet, even now, you work in opposition to it.

The 2012 budget you shepherded to passage in the House of Representatives guts long-established protections for the most vulnerable members of society. It is particularly cruel to pregnant women and children, gutting Maternal and Child Health grants and slashing $500 million from the highly successful Women Infants and Children nutrition program. When they graduate from WIC at age 5, these children will face a 20% cut in food stamps. The House budget radically cuts Medicaid and effectively ends Medicare. It invokes the deficit to justify visiting such hardship upon the vulnerable, while it carves out $3 trillion in new tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/11/catholic-scholars-letter-boehner/

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I'm glad to see that these Catholics are calling BS. Good for them.

[cleanhippie]

1. Looks like someone beat me to it in LBN.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4847565

[indepat]

2. Surprised these scholars noticed this little wart when boucoup fundamentalist Christians see

nary a wart in the whole of the pubs' depraved agenda, mantra, and actions. :patriot:

[cleanhippie]

3. I know, but consistency has never been religions strong suit. But it is better than nothing.

[skepticscott]

4. This was a relatively safe way

for these scholars to appear to be taking a stand on something. While letting far more egregious conduct by other prominent Catholics and the hierarchy of their own church pass without comment on a regular basis.

[AlecBGreen]

5. thank you for recognizing that not all Catholics/believers are evil

It sometimes feels like many here in R/T think that belief in God is wholly without good fruit. I think this is one instance of believers standing up for social justice, which is a good thing. Thanks for sharing this. :hi:

[Warpy]

6. Most of us recognize that

and that most Catholics tend to be more liberal than their Protestant brethren.

We probably won't stop bagging on the church hierarchy, though, since those are the guys with the big ethical problems and the unfortunate proclivity of sticking their noses where they don't belong.

[AlecBGreen]

7. "We probably won't stop bagging on the church hierarchy"

Please do! If something bad is going down, we all should call them out and prosecute if necessary. NO ONE should get special treatment before the law just because they are a bishop, cardinal, pope, etc. In fact, they should be held to higher standards.

[cleanhippie]

8. No one ever said anyone was evil.

I have yet, though, to see anyone NEEDING religion to be or do good.

[AlecBGreen]

20. yes you are correct

I cant recall anyone saying that Catholics/believers are evil. It was a poor choice of words on my part.

The sentiment I was trying to convey was this: some here frequently post threads or make comments highlighting examples of how wicked the Catholic church and its leaders/followers are yet seem reluctant to admit that the Church and its members can be forces of good.

"I have yet, though, to see anyone NEEDING religion to be or do good. Its hard for me to speak of others 'need' of religion to perform good acts. I can only speak from my experience, which is, my belief has motivated me to do good things I had not yet previously chosen to do. Would I have done these things without my belief? I do not know. I only know that I didnt before, but I now do.

[darkstar3]

21. We always have trouble picturing what we would do if something big in our lives were different.

Take it from someone who went the other way: You would have done those good things without having come to your current set of beliefs. I do more "good things" now than I ever did as a fundy. As backward as it may sound right now, and I'm sure it does, your beliefs are informed by your morals, not the other way 'round. It's when you let it go the other way 'round that things get ugly.

[AlecBGreen]

23. that is an intriguing thought

your beliefs are informed by your morals

I see what you mean by the nastiness that can occur when it is reversed. For me and my recent life as a believer, it has been all positive so far, at least IMHO. My beliefs call me to always be on the side of the oppressed, the marginalized, the poor, those seeking justice.

On that note, I was thinking about you (DS3) today as I drove to dinner. I saw a sign out front of a church that said "Mothers are a gift from God." My initial reaction was "They sure are!" quickly followed by the thought "How offensive must that statement be to a nonbeliever?!" I imagined how offended some here (maybe you?) might become that churches inject their beliefs into EVERY corner of our culture. Even mother's day isnt left alone. I thought about how frustrating it must be to have others beliefs shoved in your face in this way. While I understand the church's desire in posting that sign, I also felt the discomfort, the anger, the multitude of emotions that that sign could evoke in someone who doesnt believe in God. Anyway, no real point to this, just thought I'd share. Someone in VA is thinking about you :hi:

[darkstar3]

25. Aw, I have impact.

:toast:

[trotsky]

9. Who ever said all believers are evil?

Or that "belief in God is wholly without good fruit"? Those are mighty inflammatory claims to make - you should back them up with citations, or retract them.

What most of us argue is that the "good fruit" would have probably come from the same people whether they believed in gods or not.

[darkstar3]

10. and that good fruit doesn't outweigh or excuse bad.

[trotsky]

12. True dat. n/t

[AlecBGreen]

24. IMO the good does outweigh the bad

but it never, never NEVER excuses the bad

[Ninjaneer]

27. Yes. In your "opinion".

The problem with a statement like this is the same thing that's wrong with saying "in my opinion, I am right".

You are entitled to your thoughts, but as far as the debate goes, we are still on square one.

[AlecBGreen]

29. I use the phrase IMO

because the affects of religion are tough to quantify. And ... (wait for it) ... because its my opinion.

[Ninjaneer]

30. I didn't ask why you used "IMO".

I know why you used it. Due to the fact that you have no evidence to back up a claim as ridiculous as "the good does outweigh the bad".

My point was, and I thought I had made it abundantly clear, that the debate is still where it was before you made that statement.

[AlecBGreen]

22. a few points

#1) I did not claim that cleanhippie or anyone else had labelled the Catholic church or its members as evil. I thanked him/her for choosing to focus on a positive thing the church has done. See my reply to him/her above.

#2) There are many ways to infer something without saying it. I believe that is often done here. It is my belief that, through sentiments expressed here in the R/T, there are posters who feel that belief in God in general, and the Church in particular, are worthless and bear no good fruit, i.e. the there is nothing good provided by belief/the church or the bad outweighs the good, and therefore we would be better off without them.

#3) I am glad you wish the R/T to be free of inflammatory statements. I look forward to your diligence in making this a reality.

#4) What most of us argue is that the "good fruit" would have probably come from the same people whether they believed in gods or not. In my reply to cleanhippie above, it is hard for me to judge whether 'good fruit' would come from believers if they were not believers. MLK Jr. being a good example. To me, his belief and his mission were so intertwined, how can we separate them? I applaud those nonbelievers who do good. I DO believe in God, and that belief has led me to do good things which I had never done before. That is all I can say with complete certainty. Beyond that point, it is strictly conjecture.

[trotsky]

28. A few responses.

1) You did not claim, but you implied. "thank you for recognizing that not all Catholics/believers are evil" How exactly should we read that so as NOT to get the message that at least some folks in here DO think "all Catholics/believers are evil"? I do not think it helps interaction in this forum to perpetuate a stereotype atheist character who hates religion and everyone who is religious.

2) Yeah, like you did in your quote addressed in #1, but also now in your explanation. "...and therefore we would be better off without them" What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you now insinuating that we want to go and kill believers?

3) See #1 and #2 please and get back to me about diligence.

4) "I DO believe in God, and that belief has led me to do good things which I had never done before. That is all I can say with complete certainty." But that's the thing - you CAN'T say it with certainty. You may have very well done the same things without belief in gods. It's conjecture on your part too.

[AlecBGreen]

11. To all who have replied to this post I just made

I have read your comments and I would like to respond but I am busy tonight and cannot set aside the necessary time to give yall thoughtful replies. Ill write tomorrow @ work during my break.

[trotsky]

16. Hi Alec,

Just wondering when you might have time to respond and address your insinuation that atheists think all believers are evil.

[skepticscott]

17. It's all of these demands

for stuff like evidence that has caused this forum to degenerate into a place where theists say they don't feel welcome any more. Shame on you.

[Ninjaneer]

18. + 1

Agreed. Its just hindering fruitful discourse.

[AlecBGreen]

26. see post #22

my purpose was not to "insinuat{e} that atheists think all believers are evil."

Here is what I DO believe: there are many people, including some here in R/T, who think belief in God and all that springs from such belief is foolishness, blind delusion, kindergarten theology, and a mental opiate. Furthermore, many suggest that nothing good comes from belief in God, and that the world would be a much better place if we believers would give up our irrational belief.

[skepticscott]

31. Nice job of slipping

your own projection in and putting words in other people's mouths. Can you cite even one example of anyone on DU saying that "all that springs from such belief is foolishness, blind delusion, kindergarten theology, and a mental opiate."?

And have people said that "nothing good comes from belief in God", or simply that nothing good comes from belief in god that could not possibly come without it?

[Deep13]

15. Most are not. nt

[cleanhippie]

19. No one has ever said believers are evil. Why would you say that?

[freshwest]

13. Now, that's more like it.

[Deep13]

14. When JC said "Suffer little children ...

..., and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven,"

he did not mean "make them suffer" you putrid cesspool of human garbage!

What is wrong with a man and a party who thinks the main problem in this world is that poor people have too much to eat and are too healthy?