Jesus Christ on the Nat Prayer Breakfast.

[Bluenorthwest]

Although the question of what would Jesus eat for breakfast is a matter for the purest speculation, he had a few things to say about public displays of piousness. Here is what he had to say about such things:
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites ; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." From the 6th Chapter of the Gospel known as Matthew's.

So what should be made of that? Jesus himself said to pray in private, doors closed. Said hypocrisy is in fact the Prayer Breakfast of Champions.
According to Jesus, called the Christ, the man the Breakfast Club says is God, only hypocrites have Prayer Breakfasts. One has to wonder why the Breakfast Club is so quick to reject the teachings of the very man they claim died for them.

[Ian David]

1. ...

[DrDan]

2. I was disappointed to hear that Mark Kelly (Gifford's husband) would speak at the Prayer B-fast

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Hey, 'tis showbiz! I mean politics. Tragedy is just another

opportunity. Gets his face out there.

[polmaven]

Please tell me

you are not insinuating that Mark Kelly is using this tragedy and attack on his wife to further his own political agenda. :thumbsdown:

[myrna minx]

3. Thank you. K&R n/t

[The_Commonist]

4. "Hypocrisy is the Prayer Breakfast of Champions"

That made me smile.

[DesertRat]

5. My opinion

Taken in context, I think that Jesus was teaching that our personal prayer life is not to be displayed in public. He was not teaching that there was never an occasion for public prayer.
Most of our personal prayers are done in private, not for display. However, they are many examples of public prayer in the bible. There are proper times for a person to lead public prayer and there are also proper times for people to pray together.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Jesus never lead a public prayer. And the actual context of that

passage is as clear as the teaching itself. That passage ends with the Lord's Prayer, it is a specific lesson on how to pray. It says to pray in private, not in public as hypocrites do. No asterisk, no exceptions.
How is it that you are allowed to turn that teaching upside down, but Paul's few words against gay people are hyped to the point of pogroms? Seems Jesus words are rejected because they do not fit with what folks want to do. He said never, they say oh yes we will, and on TV as well, with a political agenda to boot.
What examples of public prayer can you offer in the Bible? NT of course. After the teaching was given. Odd that you say there are 'many' but fail to cite even one in a thread like this one.

[DesertRat]

10. I'm not here to argue, but here's the followup you asked for

I believe that in the teaching about public prayer, Jesus was dealing with a particular practice of the Pharisees. They made a big show out of praying so everyone would be amazed at how spiritual they were. They were very ostentatious in their prayers so that others would see that.
This is akin to those today who continually brag about how much time they spend in prayer. Christ was teaching us that our personal prayer life is not to be displayed in public. I understand your point. I'm just saying that I don't think that Jesus was teaching that there was *never* an occasion for public prayer. And I don't think that the national prayer breakfast is intended to be a big show of spirituality.

Here are some examples of public prayer that I can think of right now. Jesus prayed publicly before he raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:41-42 as well as on other occasions. Paul kneeled and prayed publically with the Ephesian elders before he left them (Acts 20:36) "And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all."

I'm sure there are more, but I don't have time to research it and I'm off to work. And BTW, I agree with you about how some people try to use the bible against gay people and use the bible to promote a political agenda. It drives me crazy. Peace.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. So the words of Jesus are open for great interperatation

But the words of Paul about gay people mean business?
So Jesus said never make a display of prayer, what would you consider a display if not an open gathering which is televised?

[RainDog]

20. And who were the Pharisees? Religious leaders who played political games.

And Jesus found them repulsive.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. In the story of Lazurus, when told of the death Jesus remains

away for two days. The prayer he says, one of thanks, not of entreaty, he actually notes that he said it out loud so that others could hear, which is what he says about public prayer in the other passage. He says he said it out loud for their sake, and this was prior to a resurrection, not a short stack. The only time he prayed in front of people, he said he did so intentionally for them to hear, and that God had no need for the words. He said that. Very consistent. Note that he did not 'join' with the others, nor lead them in prayer, he spoke to God and let them listen, with note that he made exception for their sake.
And anytime one of the Breakfast Club raises the dead, I will accept their public prayer as being in line with the teachings they claim. I would not expect them to be honest like Jesus and say that the out loud praying was a show for the other people. Which is what he says in the Gospel of John.
He did not pray out loud without noting that he had done so for the sake of men. Which is what he said all public prayer was for, the ears of men. He was very clear about it.

[Obamanaut]

17. See post 16 for the answer to your question. -> link in msg block

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=337708&mesg_id=338150

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Since you did not offer citations I will say you offered your opinion

I offered Jesus's opinion. And my exact point is that his words mean zip compared to what people wish to do. When they want to couch it in 'context' they do. When they want to leave harsh Levitical or Pauline laws in our society, they deny that there is 'context' and claim that the verses must be followed exactly. Hypocrisy beyond all compare. Paul says bad things about gays, so we can not have equal rights. But Jesus goes on and on about how to pray, and y'all just rewrite it to fit your lifestyles. It is what it is.

[DesertRat]

12. Who did you mean by y'all?

"Paul says bad things about gays, so we can not have equal rights. But Jesus goes on and on about how to pray, and *y'all* just rewrite it to fit your lifestyles. It is what it is."

Are you accusing ME of rewriting to fit MY lifestyle? Don't lump me in with the bigots! You know nothing about me, but if you must know, I am a vocal supporter of LGBQ rights and of gay marriage. I supported Dennis Kucinich in the primary and am liberal as they come. Not every Christian (including Kucinich) is a bigot!!

Peace out.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. By y'all I mean those who do the Prayer Shows such as this

Of course, most of my loved ones are Christians, none of them are opposed to equal rights as Obama and others are, the Prayer Show set. Not one of them. And so of course I never said nor thought that 'all Christians' are anything. That is your trip. Your improvisation. My mother is a devout Christian, for example. So your words are out of bounds and unfounded.
My Christian family likes to cite the verse that says if you feel mocked or persecuted for the sake of the name of Jesus, you should rejoice. But some do not rejoice, they get hot under the collar. Again, the words of Jesus do not matter as much as the desires of his followers. There is the religion of Jesus, and the one about him. The one about him sucks eggs.

[n2doc]

6. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

- Mahatma Gandhi

[bullwinkle428]

11. "Who let that dirty hippie into our shiny new mega-church?? SECURITY!!!"

[DesertRat]

14. LOL. That's the truth! n/t

[LanternWaste]

13. I suppose I'm simply not surprised anymore...

I suppose I'm simply not surprised anymore that there are Biblical Literalists in all walks of life...

[Goblinmonger]

25. I would posit that nearly all Christians

are biblical literalists to some degree. They believe that Christ is the son of god which is nowhere but in the bible. They believe what Jesus told them to do. It just comes down to line drawing.

[bertman]

15. Thank you for spotlighting the hypocrisy, Bluenorthwest. Before I rejected

christianity I was a Southern Baptist raised in a church-going family. Even as a teen, I was constantly amazed at the mental and intellectual gymnastics some of the churchgoers would perform in order to justify what they WISHED Jesus meant, despite what he is alleged to have actually said. Of course, their "interpretation" always coincided with how THEY wanted to act, but not with what Jesus had said they should do.

P.S. when did that guy Paul ever gain such stature as to be able to dictate church doctrine? Doesn't it make any christians wonder how this guy who never even met Jesus got to be such an expert on what Jesus wanted? Reminds me of a situation where someone might allow Sarah Palin to interpret how the Founders wanted the Constitution interpreted.

REC.

[Obamanaut]

16. Some might say that a prayer breakfast is simply a group of people

getting together to eat and talk about the good things in their lives (blessings.) Gatherings with food are in fact mentioned in the NT, and thanks were given for blessings.

Others might say protesting any of this is much ado about nothing.



http://www.religioustolerance.org/prayer.htm

<snip> Jesus' message, displayed by his actions, appears to be that it is acceptable, perhaps even desirable to give thanks to God at important occasions. But prayer -- communion with God -- is to be performed privately, in complete isolation from other persons.


<snip> Mark 6:41: "And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all." 

Matthew 14:19: "...took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude." (KJV) 

Luke 9:16: "Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude." 

John 6:11: "And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would."

<more at link>

[Bluenorthwest]

21. So you are willing to equate the act of blessing by the Christ

to public prayer? Those verses say he did the blessing, not that he recited a prayer. It says he blessed. That is a verb.
Do you think the people at the Prayer Breakfast have the power to bless objects such as food, or do they have to entreat God to do so?
Not one of those verses says he prayed out loud. They say he blessed the food, with his divine power. Hence the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. Those who are doing the same would also be able to multiply the food, if they bless as Jesus blessed.
It does not say he asked for blessing, but that he imparted blessing.

[WolverineDG]

26. A "blessing" is a form of prayer

Anyone who says Grace before eating is giving the blessing.

dg

[Obamanaut]

30. I am not equating anything with anything else. I am a non-believer, but

I think this is such a non-issue for so many panties to be so wadded up over. Some say it is all mythology, others disagree. If any of it gives comfort to those who believe, whom does it really hurt? You? Certainly not me.

A bunch of people gathering on their own time to talk about the good things in their lives, and/or in the lives of others. Don't you just hate it when people get along! :sarcasm:

[trotsky]

33. "The Family" is a right-wing, rabidly anti-gay political group.

This National Prayer Breakfast gives them legitimacy and support, and features top government officials promoting Christianity.

Crazy why some people get their "panties wadded up" over it. I just don't understand. We should really just say nothing when right-wing theocrats are influencing our government at the highest level. :sarcasm:

[Fumesucker]

22. Matthew 25:40

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

These are the people with the power in our society, that's why they are a subject of discussion on this thread.

And yet while these movers and shakers (aka Pharisees, Scribes) have their nice prayer breakfast there are American families living in their cars in sub zero weather.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. And that, my friend, is both the Law and the Prophets

The least among us is the Christ himself, living in a car with a family of four. Saw him yesterday with a sign, two little boys at his side. Security was making them move away so they could not be seen at the affluent market. They said hey, Jesus, move it along or we will call the cops.

[Obamanaut]

27. True that. And someone said 'charity begins at home', so while those

folks are sleeping in their cars, the US is sending foreign aid in huge amounts (one of Obama's campaign promises was to double the amount by 2012 to $50 billion), and from the photos of all those places receiving these billions, not much of it is going to the people.

I'd rather see those billions, and the billions spent on wars, being put to use here in the US.

[trotsky]

28. Some others might say that an official government-recognized prayer breakfast...

is an unnecessary entanglement of government and religion, serving to promote religion over non-religion, and thus fails the Lemon test and violates the Constitution.

But those folks are undoubtedly militant fundamentalist atheists who just want to round up believers and murder them, I'm sure. :sarcasm:

[WolverineDG]

29. if it takes place at a hotel

and before the working day starts when said government officials are "off the clock", please enlighten us as to how this is "an official government-recognized prayer breakfast."

dg

[trotsky]

31. Gee I dunno.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Prayer_Breakfast

The National Prayer Breakfast is hosted by members of the United States Congress and is organized on their behalf by The Fellowship Foundation, a conservative Christian organization more widely known as "The Family." Initially called the Presidential Prayer Breakfast, the name was changed in 1970 to the National Prayer Breakfast.

I know, as a non-believing American I should just accept my place as a despised minority and shut the fuck up when members of my government are promoting religion - one particular religion at that. I am sorry for stepping out of line, I hope you can forgive me.

[WolverineDG]

39. So just because someone gets elected to public office

they should be banned from practicing their religion? :eyes:

dg

[trotsky]

40. Did I say that? n/t

[WolverineDG]

42. yup

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=271010&mesg_id=271085

[trotsky]

44. Quote me.

Show EXACTLY where I said a government official "should be banned from practicing their religion."

You said it, now prove it.

I'm sure the right-wing Family group is glad to have you on their side bashing non-believers, though.

[skepticscott]

32. Well, tell us please

exactly when the president is "off the clock".

[Obamanaut]

35. Some said, even here, that the former president spent a lot of time

there (off the clock.) If that one was from time to time, can't the current one be as well?

[skepticscott]

45. What the president says

what he does, where he goes and who he supports by association always matters, and the time on the clock is irrelevant. The president is on the clock anytime he does anything publicly.

[WolverineDG]

41. when is anyone on salary "off the clock?"

normal working hours are M-F, 8 to 5. Anything outside those times is "off the clock."

dg

[trotsky]

43. So this breakfast was over before 8am?

Wow. Must have started around 4:00am then, huh?

[WolverineDG]

48. Schedule I saw yesterday said 6 a.m. to 8 a.m. nt

[trotsky]

49. I wonder where you saw that schedule.

Because the schedule released by the White House itself said the President's remarks would START at 8:00am.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2011/02/president_obama_official_sched_525.html

EST

7:00AM In-Town Travel Pool Call Time

8:00AM THE PRESIDENT delivers remarks at the National Prayer Breakfast; THE VICE PRESIDENT and THE FIRST LADY also attend
Washington Hilton
In-Town Travel Pool Coverage (Gather Time 7:25AM - North Doors of the Palm Room)

9:30AM THE PRESIDENT receives the Presidential Daily Briefing
Oval Office
Closed Press

Fascinating. Not that it would matter even if he did wrap up before 8am, because your silly point about 8-5 business hours is meaningless.

[WolverineDG]

50. Well then, I guess he had to use up some annual or personal leave nt then

[trotsky]

51. Amazing.

You'd rather side with the foulest of Christians than with a non-believer trying to defend the separation of church and state.

[WolverineDG]

52. Changing tactics?

Surprise surprise.

There are 2 parts to the First Amendment, in case you forgot. As a private citizen, Obama can go wherever he wants & worship (or not) with whomever he wants. The fact that he appeared at the National Prayer Breakfast is not a violation of the "separation of church & state," no matter how badly you try to twist it.

dg

[trotsky]

53. Nope, just amazed.

You're the one who has done nothing but shift from excuse to excuse this whole thread to justify this abuse of the separation of church and state. But at least The Family has an ally in you.

[skepticscott]

55. And as a "private citizen"

Obama has the right of freedom of association, so he could also have breakfast with Osama Bin Laden and act like he supported what he stood for, as long as he was done eating before we went "on the clock" at 8 AM. Right? And no matter what the president does when he's "off the clock" it's a good idea and represents the county appropriately. Right?

Apparently you don't have any grasp of how ridiculous your argument is, but keep trying to make sense. If you can't be rational, at least be amusing.

[darkstar3]

54. What country are you from?

The Presidency isn't just a job, it's a governmental, political, and social position. The President is "on the clock" all day, every day. Just because he takes a "vacation" to Hawaii doesn't mean he's off the clock. He still has protection, he still gets briefings, he still makes phone calls to officials and dignitaries, and most importantly, he still represents the USA.

And to expound on this point regarding something else you said below, you are no longer a "private citizen" when you get elected President. You're the President 24/7, and there is no "your time", and we all recognize this or else no one would ever have given a shit about "the 3am call".

So since the POTUS was representing the USA at an evangelical event sponsored by a right-wing hate group, it was the wrong thing to do. There was a time when Presidents understood the concept of impropriety even in the face of majority consent.

As for you, well, he kissed your ass and that of all your friends, and you have no right to be angry about the fact that people who don't believe like you are offended. Stating that the President is violating the spirit if not the letter of the 1st Amendment when he attends such events doesn't even begin to qualify as persecution or any kind of attack on Christianity. (<<and that's not just for you.)

(BTW: That very same persecution angle is what right-wing apologists use when we stop them from legalizing things like gay-hate. You should be careful of your tactics.)

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skepticscott]

34. And those of us who are familiar

with the hate-mongering group that sponsors the National Prayer Breakfast and uses it to increase their influence in government would say that your characterization is hopelessly naive, if not downright dishonest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=327867

[Obamanaut]

36. Looking at a list of keynote speakers, we find a whole bunch of

notables, among them Mother Teresa in 1994. Maybe attendance does not necessarily mean endorsement of policies/beliefs that are at odds with yours.

[trotsky]

38. Mother Teresa, being a Catholic, was anti-choice and anti-homosexual.

So it's not like her beliefs were completely at odds with The Family's.

[trotsky]

37. Incredible, isn't it...

that on a site full of people claiming to be progressive, they'll get more upset with people who don't like this event being held, than they will with the people who are organizing it AND fighting the progressive agenda tooth and nail?

[Igel]

47. "that they may be seen by men"

In telling a man he healed to present a dove as thanksgiving sacrifice he was telling him to do what was required. This was a public act, and one of piety.

On the other hand, it would also be possible to perform the same act for the purpose of being seen to be offering a sacrifice. Not out of piety but out of vanity.

Intent matters.

There's precious little need to stand on a street corner by yourself and loudly pray. But when you start having groups formed the public/private distinction falters. Did Jesus pray in public at the last supper? Would his reading in the synagogue have been a public or private act (along with any prayers that would have been uttered, as well)?

In some cases, collective prayer, like collective worship, is to be seen. In other cases, being seen is merely a result of the worship or prayer's being collective. Jesus slighted public worship and prayer in his preaching; on the other hand, he also failed to really define what righteousness was. Still, these were very much present in the socio-religious context of the day. He spoke not directly to us (assuming he was, and he spoke) but to people living at the time. Just as "Get that spot out" differs in meaning if you think the person who said it is standing next to the washing machine or next to a muddy dog and the speaker almost certainly meant either one or the other and not both or whichever one the listener wanted to interpret him to be saying, you really have to know the context of the NT.

[provis99]

56. Christians don't give a shit about Jesus or Christianity.

they do what they want, and don't do what they don't want, regardless of what religion says.