I am sick and tired of having Christianity shoved in my face.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

I live in rural Texas and I get people inviting me to church. I say I'm not interested and they are stunned.

I've been told I'm going to hell, by one idiot who told me I would not get to heaven "worshiping Buddha and meditating". I told him "You don't know what you are talking about. Buddha is NOT worshiped as a God; he was an enlightened person. It's a philosophy".
This arrogant fuckstick who was explaining "Gawd's Law" to me said "ohhhhhhh".

He was horrified when I told him I had taken religion courses at a Presbyterian university (courses he couldn't pass) and I told him the Bible was translated through four or five languages, chopped up and edited to consolidate Constantine's political power, and he looked horrified when I told him that. Then he told me that "my problem" was that I took those courses, and "studied too much". I told him, "NO, knowledge is always a good thing. You spout off about the Bible and refuse to find out where it came from?" He doesn't want his kids to read books. I told him it was evil to crush a child's spirit by stopping them from learning. He got a grimace on his face when I said that too. He is literally in pain when I tell him stuff and correct his FOX news spewing. I have had to sneak books to his kids. I guess he thinks they should all be ditch-diggers.


I can't explain my beliefs because they refuse to listen. All they know is what some half-assed preacher tells them, which is ignorant spew. Like the idiot neighbor who said "Buddhism is VOODOO!" and crossed her arms in front of her like she was raising a cross to prevent Oriental cooties. After that I stopped speaking to her and put up a fence. I gave her a five minute speech about how Buddhism was an ancient and dignified religion, but she didn't hear me. But then I don't have a six foot tall instrument of torture in my front yard that's decorated with white Xmas lights (I kid you not). Maybe I should ask her when she will put in an electric chair? Or a gallows? Or an Iron Maiden? Or a Catherine Wheel?

You can't have a social life here unless you go to high school football games and church.

The white folks also hate Obama because he's black.

Christianity did not work for me and I think it's childish and illogical. It's also abusive since their starting idea is that you are a worthless P.O.S. because a couple of fruit-chomping idiots in a fairy tale ate of the Tree of Knowledge, and KNOWLEDGE IS BAD!!! Therefore you are going to hell unless you accept Jesus!! Faulty starting premise, faulty solution to non-existent made-up problem (original sin). Very sick and pernicious and evil idea. It's like God is a crooked prosecutor who files an indictment against you even though you are innocent. Not my idea of a just and fair God.

These are stories written to explain why things are the way they are -- like the archetypes Jung talked about, and Joseph Campbell even more in The Hero With a Thousand Faces. They should not be taken as fact, which unfortunately they are. The writings of Rudolf Bultmann are very interesting!!

I see no reason why we should follow the morality of a bunch of Bronze Age nomads, since they knew nothing about science and thought the earth was flat, and demons caused physical and mental illness.

There is nothing unique about Christianity or the idea of the Golden Rule. Jesus is not known to have existed outside of the gospels. Jesus was also into violence, mass murder, condoning the mass murders that God commits in the OT, and generally being illogical and damning people to hell all the time. None of the Gospels are contemporaneous with him. Lots of other gods have the same qualities he does -- Mithra, Tammuz, Apollo, Osiris. It's a syncretic religion based on other pagan myths.

Christians just can't leave me alone. They refuse to believe that it did not work for me and that I have other philosophies I study.

I see no difference between prayer and magic spells. They are both an attempt to change reality. And as far as I can tell neither one works.

/RANT OFF

[Radical Activist]

1. Their pushiness comes from insecurity and doubt.

They need to have their faith confirmed by having other people agree with them.
Good luck surviving in Texas!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. I'm a native Texan. Lived here my whole life.

Don't know where else I'd go.

It's tough being a liberal third generation Democrat. It was good in Houston, I could find friends but here in the boonies, where my Congress-Cretin is Joe Barton, it's tough.

[BurtWorm]

27. Oh my godlessness!

Are you stuck there? Can't you move? I know, why should you? Well, how about this for a reason: there's nothing there worth staying for? Or is there?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

117. Don't have anyplace to go.

Retired. Inherited the house. Trying to rent the house in Houston that I own, which has been vacant for several months and has been sucking money for repairs. The rental market has absolutely dropped out totally. The only substantial assets I have are the two houses.

I have no income, other than what I would get if the house was rented or sold. Dear Hubby gets some social security.

The only direct family member I have is my grown daughter who lives in Houston. My parents and sister are dead.

I've been trying to get my friends to visit on weekends from Houston and Dallas, but I think they are all so busy slaving at their jobs that they don't have time to come see me. They act like 150 miles is a long way, but in Texas that's not very far to drive, since Texas is so big and the big cities are so far apart.

[AmBlue]

51. No... they are being "fishers of men" as commanded.

It is one of the most annoying things that Christians are compelled by the Bible to do: proselytize. Sadly, most Christians can't proselytize without a bad case of holier-than-thou and a firm belief that they have a God-given right to stand in judgment of their fellow humans. Taken altogether, it's just a nasty, repulsive combination. They are America's Taliban and they will never stop trying to force their beliefs on their fellow citizens. I know because I was a Christian not too long ago-- born and raised-- but the politicization of the Christian faith and their offensive pushiness and radical beliefs drove me away. I don't want to stereotype as all Christians are not this bad, but it is is increasingly prevalent.

In the decade since the 2000 election until now, I've so resented the hijacking of that religion by political radicals and their blind followers that I just cannot in good conscience have any part of it any longer. Unfortunately, the blanketing of our airwaves with the Rushes and the Becks and Faux Noise has fanned the flames of their insanity and I am alarmed at the escalation of their rhetoric and how "wrapped in the flag" it has all become.

[grantcart]

Well they don't ask me twice

I invite them in and bring out my Oxford annotated bible and start asking them questions.



Who wrote Genesis?

Why are there two creation stories?

and so on.

Shock them with the very poor support for Virgin Birth and if they are obstinate go to the 'added' ending of Mark pointing out that the original version of the earliest Gospel had no resurrection appearences.


When they have said "I don't know" 9-10 times I tell them if they practiced medicine as poorly as they practiced religion they would be sued for malpractice and their license would be taken away.


BTW I went to Whitworth what Presbyterian University did you go to?

[BurtWorm]

28. Have you deconverted anyone? Or just made a lot of ignorant people angry with you?

[grantcart]

34. I don't try to 'deconvert' anybody but I have an impact

They always come in twos, and what usually happens is that the leader will fall back on the "your obvious intelligent but we rely on our faith and prayer" and I close looking at the 'trainee' with something like;


"When you leave your trainer is going to tell you that you cannot rely on your intelligence but rely only on faith and prayer. I am here to tell you that I have been to India and there are Hindu believers that pray harder and have more faith than you, I have seen them walk on hot coals because they have meditated to such a point that they can overcome pain. I know that you are doing this because you want your parents to have a good opinion of you but at some point in the future you are going to face a tragedy and at that time go to mainline Protestant or Catholic Church and talk honestly about your faith and they will help you move to a religious life that is based on both reason and faith."

By this time the trainee is looking at me with a stunned look and tears are in his/her eyes.

The trainer is looking at me equally stunned and realizes that when they go back to the meeting this guy is not only going to be talking the group but the other trainees.

They mark down my name and address and they don't come back, except I changed condos a couple of years ago and they skipped my old address and I got the new trainer and trainee from the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses and the local fundie Church except the trainer for the JW figured it out and actually asked "Did you move from next door?"

I don't think any one of them changed the next day but I know that I gave a foundation to the doubts that they already had and it will have an impact in the future.



edited to add:

I take great care when talking to someone on a one on one basis and they start talking about their faith not to use my good fortune to go to Seminary to go over their head and undermine their faith. I usually just listen and try to find something I agree with. I only bring out the big guns when people go door to door. And I really am not against their religious beliefs but I am angry about how intellectually lazy these people are. They want to 'sell' a religion that they haven't bothered to really investigate.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

56. You are too cool!

I love it :thumbsup:

[grantcart]

2. dupe

[Hepburn]

3. I hear you!!!!!!!

A-FUCKING-MEN!!!!

I live in a "seniors" development...and the RW old fundies are all the hell around me. I am Wiccan. I am told and my friends are told by the RW fundies that: I am "evil"; that I "worship the devil"; that I "do voodoo"; that I "hex people..." I am soooooooooooooo sick of this crap I could SCREAM!!! One of these days, I am gonna caste a spell and turn all of those mouthy old RW fundies into fricking toads!

:evilgrin:

[hyphenate]

10. Tell them that Satan is a Christian construct

and they'll wonder what the hell that is. Say that Wiccans don't believe in a devil per se, that Satanists must believe in God, or they wouldn't believe in the Devil.

You can also point out that Wiccans and Druids, and any other religious folks predate Xtianity, and that creation myths go back to the Sumerians, the Babylonians, and just about any other thriving civilizations. And you can spring the big one on them: tell them that most Xtian holidays actually fall on old pagan holidays, because it was too difficult to separate the "new" Xtian ones.

[Hepburn]

26. I have told them that I do not believe in the Devil and...

...the little darlings say that I must believe in him because as a Wiccan, I worship him.

I gave up on these idiots long ago. They are just ugly fundies. What I have found also is that the practicing Catholics seem to be the worst of the offenders along with the fundies. It's like they fear voodoo rather than think that they are safe because they are believers. Real interesting to watch. I have NO fear of them and what they do or the devil that they believe in ~~ wonder why they fear a belief system that relies on such things as the Rule of Three and protecting Mother Nature. Such hateful people, too. Not all of them ~~ but the vast majority of them. While I make sure that those who are ill get to the doctor, have food in the house, meals perpared, these idiots sit on their hands and go to those I aid and tell them I am evil because I do not believe as they do.

Weirdos, those believers. Hateful weirdos in fact.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

57. ohhh don't do that!!!

Toads are sweet, gentle, funny little creatures. Plus, they're fat and lumpy. What's not to love?

What's something repulsive without any redeeming qualities whatsoever?

hmmm....

hoo-ee, that's a toughy...hmm *scratch head*...

hrrmmm......
.
.
.
.
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:

Republicans!

[RandomThoughts]

4. I think prayer is more for learning.

Although I have seen reality change.

:shrug:

Although I still don't have beer and travel money, heh, and some people actually pray that I don't have those things. So does prayer work, and should it be used for beer and travel money, and should it be used to try and stop someone from having those choices in life.


Although I will have beer and travel money, and many experiences.


Who's line is it anyways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWk2W2lv1Q0


A little humor. That is so funny.


Squirel!!!!!!

[pnwmom]

5. What you are describing is fundamentalist or evangelical Christianity.

Not all Christians behave this way, although probably the vast majority in places like rural Texas do.

[Sherman A1]

6. What was the bible passage about

public worship? Something along the lines that your prayers were to be in private, etc.

Use that one and Tell them you are just following the bible, because public displays and worship are against the teachings of the bible itself.

Game Over.

[hyphenate]

7. I consider myself an atheist

and wish more people were, too, but I can't say I don't like some Xtians, at least the more enlightened ones.

Yes, there is a decidedly miserable bunch of people who are literalists of the bibble, and who hold all kinds of nastiness in their beliefs, but there are also progressive Xtians who don't believe everything in the bibble is to be interpreted as fact, who do understand that the earth is well over 14 billion years old, and that the rapture stems from an idiot in the 19th century.

These people tend to accept the message that whether there was a savior or not, the actions of peace, goodwill and tolerance of all faiths is integral to being a follower of Christ.

People can worship in whatever fashion they wish, as long as they aren't proselytizing others. Some of the good ones hate the radical religious right as much as I do, or close to it, at least.

Let's face it: people have been intolerant bigots for far longer than two millennia, but they have never been the majority--they just know how to scream louder and longer than the rest of us.

[BurtWorm]

29. I'm sure you're well meaning, but I doubt this helps

someone who has the other kind in her face as much as she does. It wouldn't help me to know that somewhere beyond my daily existence there are people who call themselves Christians who don't buy all that dumb Christian shit, just the good parts.

[sweetloukillbot]

129. As a progressive Christian, I appreciate what you are saying.

I certainly have more in common with atheists than with funamentalists, but too often I see my beliefs belittled or lumped in with those of the religious right.

I'm not out to convert people, and I would never condemn anyone's belief or non-belief. I don't know the answers, I have faith that my path is the right one and I trust at some point I'll find out if I'm correct.

And honestly, the religious right dislike progressive Christians as much as atheists - we're all the same to them. I've been told by several that my baptism "doesn't count" and I need to accept Jesus into my heart. Sorry, he's been there as long as I can remember and you can tell by my work with the poor, the afflicted and the oppressed.

[Goblinmonger]

130. Studies would show that they don't hate you as much as atheists.

We're at the bottom. They may think you are going to hell, but they know that it is just a difference in interpretation. Atheists present a much different mental challenge and extreme cognitive dissonance.

[sweetloukillbot]

131. "Atheists present a much different mental challenge and extreme cognitive dissonance."

Ha! I can almost see some of their heads exploding at the concept! You're right, we progressive christians are treated more like Jews or Muslims - we're either to be patronized or condemned. But our existence won't cause an aneurysm.

[dimbear]

134. An interesting phenomenon. Many believers prefer you to

believe in a god, any god, no matter how ridiculous, than none. I suspect they would prefer you to believe ardently in Chthulhu or the FSM over none at all.

Probably even Satan Himself.

Headscratcher.

[Better Today]

9. I see your specific problem with the Bible Belt Christians, but to be totally

honest for my part (used to live in Texas so I get what you're talking about), I get tired of religions of all walks. As you say, Buddism is a philosophy not a religion. Actual worship-style religions of all stripes seem to require too much ignorance, too much blind faith, and too much unwillingness to see reality to be of any use to me, or imo to the world at large. Seems that they all cause more harm, more wars, more intolerance, more sexism, ... y'know I can't think of a good thing that comes from religion that couldn't be just as useful as a philosophy without all the dogma and "my religion is better than your's" BS.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

11. Hinduism and Buddhism make far more sense to me.

And they WANT you to use your brains. The Indus Valley civilizations did some advanced science thousands of years ago. They also thought in huge spans of time, like millions of years (yugas or ages). Carl Sagan talks about this in the "Cosmos" TV series.

I also find it telling that the Hindus did not fight the Buddhists. Siddhartha Gautama was a Hindu in Northern India. What did they do? They just added Buddha to their pantheon and said he was the ninth incarnation of Vishnu. When the tenth incarnation of Vishnu shows up, then the shit will hit the fan and it will be the Kali Yuga, the terrible age!!

Kali Durga is known for kicking ass and taking names.

I find it interesting that Buddhism is a condensed form of Hinduism, without all the gods but keeping karma, dharma and reincarnaton intact.

Whereas the Abrahamic religions each say they are the chosen true religion, and then xtianity and islam keep adding stuff, and expanding instead of distilling.


/Comparative religion rant/ OFF/

[Riktor]

13. The differences are superficial

When all is said and done Hinduism and Buddhism are still faiths, ideas independent of observable fact. Perhaps we find them more tolerable because they lack a formal hierarchy and a central dogmatic text, or because winning converts is not part of their grand agenda, but at the end of the day, Hindus and Buddhists still display many of the more abhorrent qualities of the dogmatic.

That said, if your gripe with Christianity is its emphasis on winning converts, then I understand your preference for the Eastern religions.

[demwing]

19. While the rant against Christianity is understandable

the reliance on "Observable Fact" is limited. The tools we use to observe are limited, and so our observations are limited. The more advanced our tools become, the closer the constructs of "observable fact" and Hinduism/Buddhism appear to come together.

[grantcart]

36. From a sociological point of view it is interesting to compare

Judaism/Christianity

and

Hinduism/Buddhism


Judaism and Hinduism were both well developed religions that were dependent on the ethnic stage that created them. Obviously the covenant with the Jews made them ethnic specific but also the caste system of India was also an integral part of Hinduism.

At certain parts of history empires were established and increased commerce brought new ideas and philosophies from other areas into juxtaposition and raised the question how can this be true here and not true everywhere.

In a sense both Christianity and Buddhism opened up their parent religion for the masses. Christ taught that everyone could be saved regardless of ethnic or national origin and Buddha taught that all could achieve Nirvana regardless of class or ethnic origin.

It is interesting that Buddha lived at the same time as the School of Second Isaiah which also was the time that Jews started to understand their covenant as not being for just them but as a 'suffering servant' to the whole world.

[Skittles]

12. GET WITH THE PROGRAM, Manifestor_of_Light

Don't you know that those ignorant sanctimonious asshats are "REAL AMERICA" ???

[Festivito]

14. If people invite you to eat sushi, and you don't like sushi, is that a shove in your face?

Stunned at your no, or stunned at how you said no, is what I would wonder. Sick and tired? I wonder. I think you relish the idea of showing your prowess to unsuspecting folk.

Look, Christians should be voting with Democrats, but many don't or won't in part of divisive rants.

Well, that divisiveness needs to take a hike, or seek some therapy.

[meow mix]

15. people dont usually tell me i have to be tortured in HELL.. for not eating sushi lol

i really hate these christians myself, and i never used to care that much but they have forced me to hate them.

[Festivito]

53. That shows my point. Your hatred needs to take a hike or get therapy.

You blind yourself. Note that bad sushi and hell do go together.

[Goblinmonger]

60. Do you think that doesn't happen?

I've been told on numerous occasions that I am going to hell for my non-belief. Should I just shrug that off and think that person is otherwise a good old Joe even though they just damned me in their mind to an eternity of pain and suffering just because I don't believe what they believe? Should they be the ones to take the hike or get therapy?

[Festivito]

66. Do you just randomly pick posts for response other than your own?

And, if you're taking the notions of painful eternity seriously, maybe you should be more serious about it.

[Goblinmonger]

78. Yes, I roll 2 10-sided dice and respond to the post number that comes up.

So you want to run the rules of which posts I can respond to by me so I don't offend again in the future.

And thanks for the "sticks and stones" response. It's very helpful. And certainly gets to the heart of the attitude that comes along with those that damn atheists to hell. I'm sure those that lose their job because of their lack of belief will be happy to know that that particular attitude won't break their bones, though.

[Festivito]

81. I thought as much, and wasn't offended, just bemused.

The responses seem just as random. Except for your concern about hell. There you're consistent.

Let me get this straight. You're an atheist concerned about hell?

Not that I expect anything other than some random retort... anyway, good day.

[Goblinmonger]

82. Miss the point much?

I'm an atheist concerned with the fact that people in the position to impact my life think that I am an unworthy sinner damned to hell.

Also, I am an atheist who is supposed to just brush off the comments of many, many, many Christians on the hope that some aren't such big assholes.

[meow mix]

89. codemning me to hell is just one step away from burning me at the stake as a non-beleiever

thier statements prove this is the case.

[Goblinmonger]

93. Absolutely.

Many of them would burn the non-believers at the stake if that were still possible.

[Festivito]

90. I'm going to suggest that you try to find some commonality with these people.

For example, do you give to charities. Ask them which of those charities they prefer.

Or, perhaps, you do have nothing in common other than your work. So, talk about that.

There are many of religion who brush off comments all the time at work. What makes you so special that you should not have to as well.

[Goblinmonger]

92. It all goes to power. How is that not clear?

Christians have power in this country. They can make my life hell. They can get me fired. They can do any number of things that I can't. So when someone calls a black person a worthless nigger, should they tried to find some commonality with the bigot? Talk to them about if they like football? Certainly there bigots that brush off comments all the time, what makes the black person so damn special?

It's pretty easy from the side of power to say that the minority should just fuckin' deal with it.

[trotsky]

17. Here, let me translate your post.

"You non-believers need to accept your minority status and shut the fuck up or else you're going to scare away all the Christian voters!"

Christianity is indeed a religion of threats, not love, as you have further demonstrated.

[Festivito]

55. A friend says to stop drinking, and you can only shut up or berate your friend?

Those may be the only responses you can see. As for me, I'll entertain my friend with a: why is that? And, it had better be something good or I'm downing another!

And, you express a simpleton's understanding of love. Threats indeed. The only thing I threatened is therapy and hiking. Ooooooh!

[trotsky]

77. I think you've got that analogy reversed.

But good luck with that Christian love thing. You sure are full of it.

[Festivito]

80. I don't. Thanks for the wish of luck. And, I think you're full of it too.

I sense that we disagree at some fundamental level, but we're not moving closer to resolve at this point. So, I wish you well. Perhaps, some other day we'll learn from that difference. Good day.

[trotsky]

83. Yeah, we disagree at this level:

thinking that rude Christians proselytizing (and judging others) when it's not wanted is a bad thing. Clearly, it would seem, you have more in common with them than with this Jesus fellow you supposedly worship.

[Festivito]

88. We don't disagree on your first sentence. And your second depends on the first.

Maybe the disagreement is more fundamental, such as what is rude and what is not.

[grace0418]

18. You must not have ever experienced the kind of "christians" the OP is describing. It doesn't even

compare. I've been in many situations where someone in a group of friends/coworkers/neighbors suggested going out for sushi (or Korean bbq, or pho, or Ethopian food, etc.) and someone in the group says "I don't care for sushi/Korean bbq/pho/Ethiopian." The response is invariably "Oh, okay, how about ___________ then?"

There are no horrified gasps, or threats of damnation, or whispering behind your back, or continued and increasingly aggressive attempts to get you to "see the light". Heck, I've known people to get shunned by their entire block simply for not choosing to buy into RW Christian Fundamentalism.

I have a friend who got engaged and her fiance's family was from the rural south. Most of them couldn't make it to Chicago for the wedding so they threw a celebration for the couple a month or so before. Very sweet gesture right? My friend had met her future in-laws before, and they knew she was an atheist, but apparently they were too embarrassed to tell the rest of the family. At the party EVERY SINGLE person she met immediately asked her "Are you a Christian?" and when she said she wasn't, they turned and walked away. It didn't take long for this to get around the whole party so before they even sat down to eat, they'd completely dismissed her and didn't speak to her for the rest of the day. One of the two guests of honor and they acted like she wasn't there. WTF?

I have yet to meet anyone in Chicago who will ask your religious beliefs immediately after being introduced to you. But it happened every day when we visited Texas.

[jeepnstein]

22. I have met them.

I'm a Christian. Of the Evangelical persuasion. More specifically I'm part of the old Restoration Movement which has fallen from favor in the face of mega churches that stand for nothing. Some would call me very hard-nosed in my approach. If someone comes up to me and makes a claim about the Bible or Christianity I'll usually produce a copy of the Bible and say "show me where it says that". Most of the folks claiming to speak as an authority on scripture are not very well-versed in what the Bible actually says. I make no claim to be an authority, merely a student. I'm not sure I'll ever get this Christianity thing entirely right and the World sure wants to make sure I don't.

Many well-intentioned but misguided folks have done a great deal of damage to my Church. The folks who would turn my Church into a political party are especially harmful. Jesus wasn't interested in worldly power so why should Christians worry about it? I can't imagine turning my back on someone just because they aren't a believer. I never knew of anyone who converted because someone beat them over the head with the going to Hell issue.

If I meet someone who is a non-Christian, I'm usually quite interested. Don't expect me to attack your faith or lack of it, but I might very well ask you to tell me more about yourself. People are interesting. The trick in life is to learn something new everyday.

[Festivito]

59. I have met them also. And, I agree with you very much. /nt

[Festivito]

58. Well, the whispering behind your back can occur after suggesting Ethiopian food.

Whew, they serve a lot of food.

What happened to your engaged friend is a sad, even awful story. You cannot pick your family. But, what a shallow group! How embarrassed your friends must be.

I hope you all meet a better class of people.

And as for Texas, don't mess with Texas... they seem to mess themselves. 'nuff said.

[MineralMan]

20. Yah...why won't you drink with me? Here,

have a drink...I insist. I can never trust a man who won't have a drink with me. No, there's no such thing as alcoholism. I've been a drinker all my life, and I'm no alcoholic. C'mon, pal, just have one so I'll know you're my buddy.

[Festivito]

61. You definitely need to associate with a better class of people.

Whether you invite me to eat sushi, drink, talk religion, attend your church, ... and I say no thank you, and then you continue on like that?

What do I have to do. Get a letter from my lawyer to have you cease and desist I guess.

I mean, what do you do if someone comes up to you and starts farting? And then, follows you wherever you go farting away. What do you do.

Them's bad peoples, I'z gunna run.

[cleanhippie]

30. If that was all it was, then no.

But if I say, no thank you , I don't like sushi, and then you tell me that unless I eat it, Im gonna burn in hell, then continue to pester me about day after day after day......


Well, I hope you get the point.

[Festivito]

65. Yeah, that can happen. That's in part why we have stalking laws.

But, if you're insisting that we should not talk with each other because someone might abuse the right, I can't agree.

It would be like saying that none of us can drive because someone might misuse the privilege.

[cleanhippie]

67. Wow, you git a lot more from my post than I intended.

Not really the point I was trying to make at all.

[Festivito]

68. If your subject isn't the point you wanted to make, hit edit near bottom right.

You can rewrite it to your hearts content.. for a half hour or so.

[cleanhippie]

98. Not sure how I could edit that to make it any clearer.

You jumped to a conclusion that I was not trying to make. Nonetheless, we understand each other now. Have a nice day.

[Goblinmonger]

32. But I don't like the back of the bus, Festivito.

So those Christians you speak of that somehow magically won't vote Democratic just because atheists actually have the balls to say what they think and stand up for what they (don't) believe can, frankly, shove it up their ass because they certainly aren't very progressive if they are running away from the mean old atheists that have, virtually, no power in this country.

[Festivito]

62. Go to DC, sit in front, but don't trip the people as they enter.

If you don't like them, leave them alone.

If they ask to sit next to you, say no thank you.

[darkstar3]

87. Talk about your all time examples of majority privilege.

Thanks to your membership in the Quaker anti-criticism club, you manage to accuse GM of tripping people as they enter the bus, but completely ignore the fact that so many of your fellows would gladly push him out of the seat if he didn't move willingly.

You're probably one of those people who think most slaves had happy relationships with their owners, too...

[ZombieHorde]

37. Family members don't quit talking to for not eating sushi.

People at the hospital don't become cold towards you when they find out you don't like sushi.

At least in the majority of places in the US.

[Festivito]

63. You ignore the question, and then overstretch the analogy. For what?

Just to talk, see yourself in print?

[ZombieHorde]

70. I answered the question, you big silly. I described the error of the analogy.

The invite is not what offends some people; the offense comes from the bigotry behind the invite.

[Festivito]

84. Alright, but I had already tried to address that in my first post.

That coldness, that sensed bigotry, might, MIGHT, come from the attitude of the speaker, rather than truly being the prejudice of the responder.

Oh, there are shallow bigoted Christians. There are also shallow bigoted atheists, DUers, and of course Freepers. One should not prejudge the whole based on a few, especially only its lowliest few.

Instead of seething with anger that spills into a rant like the OP's, why not just learn to change the subject -- nicely. I'd be glad to give some pointers.

[trotsky]

85. "One should not prejudge the whole based on a few, especially only its lowliest few."

Damn, there goes another irony meter.

[Festivito]

91. Perhaps, and ironically, I'm once again to deal with the round robin of the lowliest few.

That is, posters who jump into the middle of threads who seem unbothered by the concept of context.

[Goblinmonger]

94. Just to piss you off, I'll jump in.

So you can't keep your focus on the discussion with one person just because another decided to comment on what you said. You must be a joy to talk to at a party. Ever go to a friends house to watch a game? You must not be able to have any discussion while focused on the TV.

Context? What makes you think that the context isn't understood by trotsky or I?

[trotsky]

97. We all have our crosses to bear, don't we? n/t

[cleanhippie]

104. Lookut below, I'm jumping in!

I feel like I am dealing with "the lowliest few" right now.

[darkstar3]

86. Oh yes...

Change the subject, change the channel, look away, turn the other cheek...

You don't see the irony in your repeated passive aggressive posts in this thread, do you? It always amazes me how blind some people can be to double standards.

[ZombieHorde]

96. My wife and I are both college students. Yesterday, my wife told me the guys

on either side of her were discussing how much they hated atheists. She said they compared us to rats. She eventually asked them if they wanted to sit together, as opposed to either side of her.

About a month ago, my daughter's friend told her she could not play with her anymore because my daughter does not believe in god. She was sad, so we let her watch The Invention of Lying. I think that movie made her feel a little better.

About three months ago, my son's stool was really bloody. I got scared and took him to a nearby health clinic. They looked at his file and then informed us that his religious preference was marked as "None." I was then asked if I wanted to correct that. When I said we did not have a religious preference, the social treatment we received became very cold, until we saw the doctor, who was extremely cool. I did not say anything because I was so worried about my son. He is fine now. I was not anticipating the poor treatment, I figured they got all kinds of people, so I don't think this was projection on my part.

I know none of these events are traumatic, but they are regular. When people call me evil, I usually think it's cute, but I get a little sad when it happens to my wife and kids.

[Dorian Gray]

109. I don't know about that

I love sushi and I'm a Christian. I'd probably be more upset with you if you got in the way of my eating sushi than if you got in the way of my going to church.

Just saying.

I love me some sushi, damn it.

[laconicsax]

41. You're absolutely right!

Non-believers should be sensitive to the fact that some people are religious and just shut the hell up and play along.

Who gives a shit about what non-believers think? They're a minority! Minority groups should cower before the majority and do everything possible to never let their minority status be known! That kind of divisiveness has no place in a civilized society.

Right on Festivo! Way to assert majority privilege!

[Festivito]

64. Perhaps there is nothing between shut up and ranting insensitively. FOR YOU!

You must be ABSOLUTELY right.

It's either shut the hell up and play along, or cut down, berate, downgrade, and degrade. No inbetween. Nope.

Who gives a shit about what mealy mouthed graceful people think? They're inferior! Inferior groups should cower before the superior and do everything possible to never let their inferior status be known! That kind of divisiveness has no place in a civilized society.

Right on laconicsax! Way to assert superiority privilege!

Whatever.

[laconicsax]

71. Wow! You've got some issues.

Funny how you view mocking and polite refusal as arrogant and superior. Project much?

[Festivito]

79. Wow, same back at ya. /nt

[Festivito]

103. Not a single answer. I'm not surprised. /nt

[darkstar3]

107. You're kidding, right?

You dropped a turd of a post, started no less than 7 mini-flame subthreads, failed to answer any of the criticism presented in those subthreads, disappeared for nearly two days, and now you return and attempt to ignore all of that and claim some form of victory?

Whatever you're smoking, it's time to share with the rest of the board.

[ixion]

16. Ignorant people hold to rigid belief systems (no matter how ludicrous) because

it makes them feel like they're in control. They're not, really, of course. They're just ignorant idiots.

[formercia]

42. Not in control but on the winning side

"Submit!!" I heard one of these Reconstructionist preachers say umpteen times during his sermon. You must obey or burn in Hell. They have no control. So, out of fear of damnation, they go along with the program. The only difference between that sermon and some Witch Doctor was that he spoke English.

Ignorance is the key to their success.

[raccoon]

21. ITA with you about people who shove Xianity in your face, tell you you're going to hell if you don't

believe EXACTLY the way they do, and so on.

Unfortunately, this kind of bigoted loudmouth drowns out the Xians who put their energy into helping the homeless and other tasks that actually help people instead of harassing women going to abortion clinics or harassing homosexuals.

And someone trying to "save" me aggravates the piss out of me.

IMO, prayer doesn't change outward circumstances or other people. It can change my attitude or outlook but it won't help me get a certain job, a certain boyfriend, etc. It's kind of like meditation that way.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Loved your rant. I lived in Texas for a couple of years.

[aka-chmeee]

24. Was speaking to a family friend this weekend who we

don't frequently see and they mentioned putting their children in a new school because of the restrictive nature of the religious school they were in...No prom, no homecoming, etc. One daughter had got valentine's day cards for her classmates which featured a peace sign; had to be thrown away. Kindergarten kids are informed that there is no Santa Claus which seems harsh to me (Note my Avatar)and I am sure that I and my fellow Santas have messed up fewer kids than religion.

[DeSwiss]

25. K&R

"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing 'Yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen!' If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it." ~ Dan Barker

[CrispyQ]

31. I am a member of a Toastmaster chapter that is pretty conservative.

A couple of new members spoke about God in their speeches & now God speeches have become quite frequent. Too bad. It was close & early in the morning, but I am looking for a new chapter that is a more liberal & a lot less religious!

[jgraz]

33. Last time the Jay-dubs came to my door, I talked to them for 45 minutes.

Made one of them cry. :evilgrin:

Hang in there. The truth will eventually win out.

[dimbear]

50. Jehovah's Witnesses have the virtue that their beliefs are

unusual enough to be sort of interesting. Most Americans don't know them by heart, the way they know mainstream Christianity.

Explains why they are persecuted with so much enthusiam, BTW.

For some reason American soil is very fertile for unusual splinter sects.

Might have something to do with the Constitution and that separation thing.

[malmapus]

35. Grew up in Georgia, been living back here for 3 years now..

Get the same thing. When we first moved, all we would be asked was, "what church do you go to?"

I've decided my way of thinking is very close to Deism. People can't seem to understand it, my own grandfather told me that one of the reasons I've been having problems these past few years is because I don't attend church. So apparently to him, God takes roll and if you're absent hits the smite button. But yeah, my wife and I are pretty sick of it all. The hypocrisy is the worst.

[Permanut]

38. Usually when the Witlesses show up

I just invite them in to have a look at all the new and exciting Amway products.

[MadMaddie]

39. I took the same religion course at a Lutheran University

and that course was probably one of the most important classes I took.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

40. Nature and function of Religion really blew my mind.

It was the introductory course. Why is there religion? What is a ritual? What is a myth? Why do we have religion? What is holy? What psychological needs does religion serve? He told us the first flood story was the Epic of Gilgamesh. Long before Noah.

Very fundamental questions. The prof graduated from Princeton Theological seminary and he is the most brilliant linguist I have ever seen. First language was Spanish; knew Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Amharic, Aramaic, Linear B. Said that in seminary he had to read Thomas Aquinas in the original Medieval Latin. That blew my mind. I took Roman Latin in high school.

One day Dr. Garcia came in with a stack of Bibles in various languages and put them on the table, sat down, and said, "It is said in the Talmud, that there is a difference between a scholar, and an ass loaded down with books!"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I thought, "Good. Now I know what I am. I'm an ass loaded down with books."

[MadMaddie]

44. he..he.. I think the same would apply to me!!

[Odin2005]

47. OMG, you owe me a new monitor!!!

:rofl: :spray:

He sounds like a Jesuit.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

75. Presbyterian. Graduate of Princeton.

He drew the names of the 12 Tribes of Israel on the blackboard.

Then he starts: "Absalom got caught in a tree by his hair. Oh, Absalom, Absalom, my son".

Then makes a great big X over his name. :rofl: Like the Mafia rubbing people out.

Sometimes he was amusing in a dry sort of way.

And the Song of Solomon was "that book in the Bible you all read because somebody told you it was dirty."

:rofl:

[dimbear]

72. Just for trivia, medieval Latin, or church Latin is

much simpler than classical Latin.

[Hissyspit]

73. Tomoko Masuzawa "The Invention of World Religions"

http://www.amazon.com/Invention-World-Religions-Universalism-Preserved/dp/0226509893

[robertpaulsen]

43. Shove this in their faces!

[mike_c]

45. religion = mental illness, and by the way...

...what a most EXCELLENT rant!

See my sig line for explanation of the subject line.

[Odin2005]

46. He doesn't want his kid reading books? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!?!

:wow:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

48. YES.

They were homeschooling the kids. He is abusive to the kids and the wife. She is about ready to leave him. He's totally negative and a control freak. The two older boys have threatened to whip his ass if he ever hits their mother again. They've gotten to where they laugh at him.

The kids are now, one in sixth grade, and two others in high school. The 18 year old is a year behind because they were homeschooled before that. That's a joke.

I had to buy the 12 year old a dictionary/thesaurus. They all SNEAK BOOKS.

[Odin2005]

49. Good for those kids!

[badgerpup]

52. Had 3 crises of faith in 3 different religions by the time I was 20...

...which was when I ran across the Nicheren Shoshu Buddhists.

Talk about satori...:wow:

It was freeing to learn that my life didn't have to be spent trying not to piss off a vengeful paranoid sky wizard who apparently had it in for EVERYONE...

but that I could make choices, take responsibility for them and evolve as a human and spiritual being. Nobody was gonna SMITE me; any smiting would be inherent in the choices I made. Do dumb, hurtful and malicious things to people and it would come right back on you in spades. Be kindly, and that too will come back on you...sometimes when you least expect it.

The Rule of Three and the law of karma are very real (and realistic) things.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

54. yes, putting your god (or Object of Worship) outside of yourself

puts you in a dependent position, and bottom line, robs you of your ability to see and change yourself.

Same thing for putting your Evils outside of yourself.

We have "30,000 worlds" of possibilities within us; we change from moment to moment, and the highest possibility lies within, as does the lowest, and the so-so as well.

If we shift responsibility for our lives, and by extension, our society and our world, outside of ourselves, we're hiding from our chance to change for the better.

Buddhism also teaches ultimate respect for others (Bodhissatvha Never Disparaging in the Lotus Sutra exemplifies the practice of respect for all others)--but I have to be honest, it's hard to do --- and, the idiocy of fundamentalist christians puts me in ranting mode too. It's really hard NOT to RANT at such obvious evil! (Well, the world of anger is part of our humanity too, so the challenge is, revealing the enlightened nature of Anger. Not easy! Especially when you SOOO want to pummel a few snouts!!!!!)

[glinda]

69. Am sick of local news always interviewing a person about a crime or something and the

quote is almost always something like " I just prayed to God and that was all I could do". Blech* I used to be "tolerant" and understanding about Christians and respectful.... now they make me disgusted for the most part.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

76. George Carlin talked about that.

Well, gee, it was a miracle that God saved me...but those 150 other people on the plane that died...well, I guess God didn't love them enough...they are fucked!"

:rofl:

[glinda]

100. I object to news interviews/clips acting like Christianity "promo" ads.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

101. I hate funerals that are commercials for Jeebus, too.

One of the TV stations around here has a "Power of Prayer" segment at ten o'clock.

PUKE.

[EvilAL]

132. A woman went missing

not far from here and they had a facebook page to help locate her. 90% of the posts were from people praying for her safe return. Only a handful of them offered to help in the search, the rest just said they would pray and have their congregations pray as well since the more prayers the better I guess. Well they found her murdered and her body dumped into a small river outside of town. All these people that prayed for her didn't say anything at all about their failed prayers, instead, they all decided to pray for her family. Wich would seem to be a bad thing considering the results of their last effort. I didn't say anything out of respect for her famly, but if it had been someone related to me I would have told them all to go fuck themselves..

[Manifestor_of_Light]

133. Sad situation.

When people say they will pray for me I always wonder if they are really saying "I'm gonna do something that I think will help but it might not do anything, so I can feel like I'm doing something positive."


:shrug:

[slay]

74. You're not the only one

*some* christians are like drug dealers/addicts and they are high on god - and they want you hooked right along with them

[Goblinmonger]

95. Here's a good example from Glee last night.

(love the show by the way). Gay guy's dad is in a coma. He comes out as an atheist. We get the following during the show:

1. Shock and dismay from his friends.
2. Friends do not know how to deal with him.
3. Friends go and pray over the dad and can't understand why the atheist is upset about that.
4. Generally comments that he has something missing because he is an atheist (which came during a complete bastardization of the song "Losing my Religion.")
5. He was only an atheist because he was mad at the church about the gay thing.
6. Bringing him to church to try and change his mind.
7. Telling him that he has to believe in something bigger than himself.

Now, in the end, I was OK with how it played out given my fears about where they were going (thought there would be a "yes I still love Jesus" moment at the end or have him pray to god to save his dad or some other drivel). He has a talk with his coma-Dad about how the dad was the thing bigger than himself that he believed in. Dad squeezed his hand at that point.

But, my point is, that even on a pretty liberally slanted show, the treatment of atheists was offensive at several levels.

[lib_wit_it]

99. I depise the idea that one *must* have an opinion on the existence of god. That very presumption is

extremely intrusive. On what other subject is one *required* to have and to declare an opinion?

Imagine the shock: "Hi. I'm Libby. Very nice to meet you. So, are you sexually active and if so what's your favorite position?"

I suppose people giving a shit about your sexual orientation is a similar intrusion.

[raccoon]

102. Great post. nt

[raccoon]

105. I think a lot of DU'ers have had similar experiences (I have) and that's why so many

get ticked off about when somebody survives a disaster and says, "God was looking out for me." Well, what about the ones who died, why WASN'T God looking out for them too?

And IME a lot of evangelizing Xians imply--some say--that if bad things happen to you, it's because you're "aren't right with God."

[trotsky]

106. Yep, that is a horrible mentality right there.

New-agey types are guilty of it too now with books like "The Secret" which basically takes the same idea - if bad things happen to you it's your own fault for not "visualizing" something better.

[laconicsax]

108. You mean like this?

http://betterbooktitles.com/post/1014395397/thepower

[dimbear]

110. That's where I bring up the San Francisco earthquake

which swept away so many churches and left liquor warehouses standing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

111. The Methodists here.

are the "society church" where the rich people go.

They have obnoxious billboards and bumper stickers proclaiming how much they love visitors.

I've seen cars with four or five of the stickers on them.

[hendo]

112. Buddha would not approve. NT

[Manifestor_of_Light]

113. I think I'm gonna send the kids magazine subscriptions.

The kids of Mr. Dumbass No-Books.

Like Scientific Asparagus, Sky and Telescope, or some good liberal publications like The Atlantic and Harper's and Mother Jones. I got LOTS of old issues of the New Yorker laying around.

[DainBramaged]

114. I'm sick and tired of getting Atheism shoved in my face

Move. You live in a State where the extreme end of Christianity exists. There are lots of places around the Country where your sensibilities wont be offended.

[beam me up scottie]

115. Whoa, you're sneaking books to this guy's kids behind his back?

How would you like it if he gave religious propaganda to your children?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

116. I'm giving them FACTS. He's giving them belief.

Those are two different things. His children should not be deprived of an education in facts, just because of his determination to keep them from learning. They're already several years behind because he homeschooled them for a long time. Keeping a child from learning is criminal and evil, as far as I am concerned. My parents' highest values were honesty and education.

If he gave my child religious propaganda, she would look at it and throw it away. She's an agnostic.

I don't believe the sun will come up in the morning. I KNOW the sun will come up in the morning because that is a predictable FACT. There is a difference between facts and beliefs.

[beam me up scottie]

118. You're giving his children books that YOU want them to read without his permission.

Just because you hate the guy and his religion doesn't mean you have the right to proselytize your version of the "facts" to his kids. Like it or not, parents have the right to raise their children and yes, even indoctrinate them into their religion without your interference.

After reading your rants in this forum, I can honestly say you're one of the last people I would want influencing young children. You remind me of teachers who try to distribute creationist propaganda to their students in science class.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

121. So you're against OBJECTIVE EDUCATION IN FACTS???

:wtf:

I am giving them textbooks they could read in school, that would be on high school or college reading lists in a good curriculum.

Creationist propaganda is NOT FACTS. It is NOT SCIENCE.

You don't know the difference between facts and religion.

It is criminal for a child's mind to be wasted when I can do something about it.

And you don't even think a 12 year old should have a DICTIONARY so he can understand English????


WOW. Just WOW. :wtf: I cannot believe I am reading this on DU.

[beam me up scottie]

125. *snort* The last thing you are is objective.

You are hilarious.

:rofl:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

123. I have a duty to step in when potential violence is involved.

This guy is all about fear and control.

This guy pulled a shotgun on his wife a couple years ago and threatened to kill her. She told him that he could kill her and put her out of her misery, but either way, he was going to jail.

The kids have threatened to kill themselves, or kill him, if he ever assaults their mother.

The youngest kid is terrified to ask questions in school. The two older ones are big enough to beat the shit out of the dad if he assaults their mother.

This family is messed up. The kids need more positive influence in their lives so they don't kill themselves, because this guy is so negative. They have no respect for him and he won't change.

How do you think I would feel if one of the kids killed themselves because they believed all the negative shit the father criticizes them with constantly? When I could do something positive to encourage them to learn FACTS?


I have heard about kids who are raised in total fear of the outside world by fundies. You know what happens? Their parents keep them in fear, and sometimes they go off to college and say they can't cope, and come home and kill themselves.

There are millions of kids who get nothing but negative influence from their parents. Nobody tells them they are valuable, and they kill themselves because they believe that bullshit. The only positive feedback these kids get are from me and mom, and maybe occasionally a teacher.

I don't want these kids to waste their lives in fear and fundamentalism. They know there is another world out there and they are determined to get away.

[beam me up scottie]

126. Sure you do.

And you're a positive influence in their lives.

I'll bet you think you're calm and rational too.

:rofl:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

127. If you think it's ok to crush a child's spirit under the guise of beliefs, that is evil.

He's trying to control them under the rationale of "their own good". They need facts to deal with reality. They are gonna escape his influence because they've already figured out he's full of shit.

You know what kind of society you get when kids must be crushed and be totally obedient to all adults, because adults are automatically assumed to know better?

You get little Nazis whose defense at the Nuremberg trials is "I was only following orders".

Following orders was more important in German society than doing the right thing. This is called The "poisonous pedagogy".

Read some John Bradshaw (Healing the Shame that Binds You) and Alice Miller (The Drama of the Gifted Child) if you don't understand.

Oh I forgot, you like religious belief and don't like books, FACTS and SCIENCE and KNOWLEDGE.

Go back to your cave, please.

[beam me up scottie]

128. Well, you got me there, around these parts I'm known for my love of religious belief.

Just ask anyone in this forum.

More hyperbole, please, this soap opera just keeps getting better and better. :applause:

[PoppyAmelia]

119. I am new here. Learning the ropes.

I registered just so I could reply to this post. I live in East Texas. I do not like that is so Republican, but I knew what I was getting into when I chose to move here. When I met my neighbors here I was invited to their churches. So what!! I never had Christianity shoved in my face. The people I have met in my small town have been very nice. I was taken aback a bit by the racism here, but people are coming around and starting to reject what their daddy taught them. Some people here are beginning to understand the Republican Party is not exactly for the blue collar workers. They are beginning to become more "gay friendly". I have hope here. I do not challenge people's belief's here. I have actually seen a *Coexist* bumper sticker here! I wonder if the OP is looking for a fight in her corner of the world.

[beam me up scottie]

120. Welcome to DU!

I moved to Tennessee and have had some trouble with the locals, but like you I knew what I was getting into. Thankfully we're now way out in the boonies where nobody can bother us.
And I know exactly what you mean about the Coexist bumper sticker, we were in town the other day and I actually saw a Peace Frog decal on a pick-up, and it was a BIG one, it covered almost all of the rear window. My bf couldn't figure out why I was so tickled. I wouldn't dare put my Evolve Fish decal on my car but now I'm considering getting a bunch of PF stickers instead.

:hi:

[PoppyAmelia]

124. Thanks for the welcome, beam me up scottie!

Have not heard of Peace Frog before...going to look it up! I love Texas HS football!!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

122. No I am not looking for a fight.

I've had people get in my face.

I am NOT asserting my beliefs to anyone unless they bring it up.

There are very few white people here who like Obama or are Democrats.

I'm not interested in Christianity or football or Obama hating, so it's pretty bad.