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What Do The Scriptures Say About Conservative Politics?

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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 08:17 PM
Original message
What Do The Scriptures Say About Conservative Politics?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. The scriptures address neither consevative nor liberal politics
Rom 13:1-14 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, (4) for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. (5) Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. (7) Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (8) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. (9) For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (10) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (11) Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. (12) The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. (13) Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. (14) But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Jefferson speaks for me......
Paul was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus".
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. yes he was...paul had a lot of issues
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I may become a Forsterian Atheist, myself...
I do not believe in Belief. But this is an Age of Faith, and there are so many militant creeds that, in self defence, one has to formulate a creed of one's own.

Tolerance, good temper and sympathy are no longer enough in a world where ignorance rules, and Science, which ought to have ruled, plays the pimp.

Tolerance, good temper and sympathy — they are what matter really, and if the human race is not to collapse they must come to the front before long.


E.M. Forster, Two Cheers for Democracy
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. not politics per say...
...but the scriptures certainly address the issues. You, for instance, have chosen a favorite passage of right wingers. On the other hand, liberals like to point to Jesus telling us to "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and render unto God that which is God's." when we talk about seperation of Church and State. If I had to choose between the the words of Paul and those of Jesus when deciding which side of the discussion I land upon, I'll take the later.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. 'favorite passage of right wingers'
Edited on Sat Aug-14-10 07:39 AM by LARED
Really? I had no idea.

Also regarding

On the other hand, liberals like to point to Jesus telling us to "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and render unto God that which is God's." when we talk about separation of Church and State.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but there was practically no concept of a separation of Church and State in the culture and context of politics in Jesus' time.

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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. are you being intentionally obtuse?
Do you take everything literally? This is all symbolism. There was no USA in Jesus' time, there was no social security or firearms either. But the scriptures talk to the principles behind the issues being debated.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not at all
Scripture addresses many timeless issues and transcends politics. Using scripture to defend Liberal or Conservative political issues as defined today is simply self serving, and not not at all what Jesus taught.
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well, I hope you see the point of me and the article writer then,
in that the right's use of religion in politics is a disgrace. I'm not trying to use it to defend liberal politics. I'm simply pointing out the ridiculousness of the right doing so.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think the fact that most religionists are conservatives speaks mounds.
What is it about the Scriptures that leads most of them that way? Just like the liberals, they cherry-pick the Scriptures to support their point-of-view, while ignoring or coming up with excuses for those that don't. I suspect most of the major religions were crafted specifically in mind to encompass a wide variety of political thought, so as to be more attractive to more people. That way both liberals and conservatives can point to verses to justify their views, and it reinforces the religion as a side-effect.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. stoning, the last great liberal tradition lol nt
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Change the tense and you have a fun time!
:smoke:
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'd say the difference being...
...that if you were to count the references to liberal or "social justice" issues in the Bible - about 3,000 - versus conservative hot button issues, like homosexuality - about 5 -, or abortion - about 0 -, one can see a pattern.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. What on Earth would the Bible have to say on abortion?
It's a book of myths and embellished history mostly written over 2000 years ago. There was no such 'issue' of abortion.

The Bible does say quite a bit on women's rights however, and those passages are far from progressive.

When dining at a cafeteria, it's a good idea to know what other people are eating before declaring that only your choices are available.
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. au contrair, mon ami
abortion is older than you think. there are diffrent methods other than surgical, though I wouldn't rule that out 2000 years ago either.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I didn't say it didn't happen, just that it wasn't considered an issue.
The legalization of abortion made it a conservative rallying point. I don't recall political candidates and candidates for the judiciary being asked about their position on the issue until much more recently than 2000 years ago.

The Bible is silent on issues that weren't considered when it was written.

Equal rights, stem cells, health care, energy independence, etc. The only Biblical positions are those which can be interpreted from contradictory passages over other matters.

There's no transcendent truth to it's pages, just superstition and cruelty with a dash of decent morals.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. I would love to see documentation of those "about 3000" references.
Do you have any? Or did that number come out of your nether regions?

BTW, while you are counting up those 3000, let me know how many references there are in the bible that condemn slavery, or promote democracy. Thanks! :hi:
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. you can see the documentation any time you like
its called the bible. How many times does the bible mention the poor, and in what context? several of the references have been listed in the article provided in the post. Do you really want me to list the other 2,980 (or so)?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yes, I would like that list.
You said there were 3000 references. Your first attempt at backing off that claim is to say it's "2980 (or so)." We'll see how much farther down that number goes before you give up.

Also would like a count on those other two topics I mentioned, though I believe you will find that challenge much easier, since it only involves counting to zero.
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I wasn't backing off the claim at all...
... I said that there are several (about 20) references in the article that is posted. that is where the 2,980 number came from. There ARE over 3,000 references in the bible to the poor and how we as individuals and as a community should treat them. Get a scoffield reference and do the counting yourself.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Take a look at the Ananias/Sapphira business.
Edited on Sat Aug-14-10 04:19 PM by Igel
It's quoted as saying that it's bad to withhold money/assets from the common good.

But the conclusion is the opposite: It's wrong to pledge money and then withhold it. It's perfectly okay to not pledge it. The collective had no demand on their private assets, and yet they could have remained part of the collective.

The Bible is clear on preserving the rights of the poor. There are a number of them. You cannot take a poor man's garment as collateral for a loan, for example. I think that saying this is a bedrock foundation of liberalism is setting the bar awfully low--few would say that a poor man wouldn't be allowed to keep a blanket when evicted from his house. In fact, few people, conservatives or liberals, would take a man's coat as collateral in the first place. Perhaps pawnbrokers, but I don't think of them as either particularly conservative or liberal. Just scuzzy. Otherwise, the assumption seems to be that conservatives take away the rights--as defined in the Bible--of the poor.

Another "right" is fair judgment. You shouldn't look at a person's wealth or poverty when deciding a court case. It's immaterial: A righteous verdict is righteous, it's one that looks at the facts, the law, and renders a verdict irrespective of who's in front of the judge. Anything else is deemed unrighteous, wresting judgment. This is justice, the following of the laws. I can't properly want the judge to decide my case independent of the facts or the law if I'm better off than the person I'm suing and therefore can't want anything less if I'm poorer than the person suing me. In fact, it specifically says *not* to consider a man's poverty.

There is no "social justice" in the OT and none in the NT; these are foreign concepts. There is merely personal justice between people. The poor may be poor, but laws protect them--and only those laws protect them. The law may say that they need to sell themselves into slavery to pay their bills. The law says that slavery is of short duration. The law says that land belongs to tribes and families and cannot be sold in perpetuity. It's a rather different sort of justice. But it defines justice. We don't get to, even if we try really, really hard.

However, there's more to it. I may have a right to sue my neighbor for every last penny and take it, if my neighbor's wronged me. Even if I'm rich and he's poor, if he stole $100 I have a right to have him repay the $100 and pay me a fine of an additional $100. Righteousness would demand this. (It works the same if he's a spoiled rich kid--the fine's the same.) However, it's unmerciful and harsh for me to demand this if it would constitute a hardship. How merciful I'm to be isn't well defined. But I have no right to expect more mercy than I've shown. I'm to love my neighbor as myself. It may be that my neighbor is poor. It may be that he has $23 billion in the bank. He might be the guy mowing my yard or the owner of the bank I keep my money in. He might be an arch-liberal, he might be Rush Limbaugh. "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Welcome to a tough row to hoe.

One problem--and this is a structural and systemic one--is that the 'state' in OT law is different from the modern state. There's essentially religious law--some of which explicitly allows mercy, some of which doesn't but permitted it. In many cases the religious law had a two-tiered system of offerings or sacrifices, one for the poor and one for everybody else. But criminal law usually was interpersonal: the judge would issue a verdict, but in most cases fines (etc.) were paid between the victimizer and the victim. The judge had no business engaging in mercy in these cases: He was just the judge. The wronged could engage in showing mercy. Now, if I'm wronged as the result of some crime I'm left wronged and the state inflicts any fine or penalty. Just as the state was different (notice that this is utterly different from Babylon or Assyria, as well) under OT law, the community structure was assumed to be different. There was no real jail: The perp's community would ensure that the verdict was carried out. Enforcement would be by the perp's peers, as required by the victim.

Many conservatives I know would fail to worry about mercy as much as I think appropriate. Many progressives I know would exult in having judgment wrested so that mercy was always shown to the "proper" person, no less a problem. The first only look at following the rules. The other believes that the rules are to be disposed of when it gets in the way of what they think should be, that their compassion overwhelms anybody else's right to justice. From Genesis to the Pauline epistles, the balance is the same: Be clear about what's right and what's wrong, but temper justice with mercy. Both liberals and conservatives are just as vindictive when they feel wronged, and both squirm when discussing justice and mercy.

At least a number of liberal Protestant groups don't echo Luther's "sola scriptura," instead looking to tradition and "inspiration" as well to interpret Scripture. As the KJV translators were told to hew to the Bishop's Bible except when the text wouldn't allow it, so many denominations hew to tradition except when they can't find a way to interpret scripture to allow it. Even then . . .


As for the use of the word "liberal" in the KJV, it just means "generous." If you look at personal giving to non-profits that serve the poor (as opposed to museums or colleges) liberals aren't all that liberal. Conservatives give more to churches, but after factoring out churches and large institutions, they're more liberal than liberals in absolute dollar amounts, even if their family income is less. The blogger is apparently in need of a decent English language dictionary, hoist on his own petard like that. I only have one English-English dictionary and use it in my work. Perhaps somebody else could donate one to him, or perhaps just email him the link to dictionary.com. At least he didn't claim intelligence.

On edit: Hope your sabbath is going well.
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-10 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. This is why the nutjobs over at conservapedia are rewriting the bible
To get rid of that touchy-feely, love-your-enemy, golden-rule crap...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/conservapdia_has_a_new_project.php

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dimbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. The bible that's not cleaned and oiled is the bible
that's most likely to jam. The bible is your friend.
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