Why God Doesn’t Listen To Your Prayers

[unhappycamper]

Why God Doesn’t Listen To Your Prayers
Posted by Tikkun Daily at 12:49 pm
June 23, 2010

God does not answer prayer.

There, I’ve said it. I know for some my assertion is scandalous, while for others it is mere common sense. But before you summon the inquisitor to prepare the rack or brand me a heretic or rush to my defense, hear me out.

I used to believe that God answered prayer. Being raised a Christian I was taught that I had an invisible, magical and wish-granting friend named Jesus who cared about all of my problems, however big or small. All I had to do was pray in his name. And if I didn’t get what I asked for there was a good chance it was because I wasn’t praying hard enough. This idea was so central to the Christian faith I was taught that never was I allowed to question the presupposition that God played favorites via a divine competition for “his” attention.

It took many years before I began wondering about the implications of God intervening in the world to answer prayer. I must admit, however, that in my youth I never had made an earnest effort to understand the logic behind prayer. Like many Christians I had a superficial understanding of my religion. I never read the Bible or studied the history of my tradition. And in high school I was too busy skipping Sunday school and getting high behind the Church to care about theology. One of the few times I did attend I remember listening to former WWF wrestler Jake the Snake Roberts with boa constrictor in hand give his testimony about how Jesus saved him. With an old spandex clad wrestler as a primary source of my understanding about the Christian faith I definitely had some learning to do.

As a result of my superficial upbringing as a Christian I was ignorant, Biblically illiterate and theologically naive. Rather than thinking for myself I simply accepted what I was told; God answers my prayers, Jesus saves and that all of those non-Christians are damned (among many other doctrines). This ignorance and obedience to Church leaders (most always men) is commonplace in conservative Christianity. Less than 10% of Christians have read the entire Bible and a large amount have never read any of it. Many still believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (despite his description of his own death) and that we descended from Adam and Eve. Most have no idea that for much of Christian history common people never read the Bible. In fact the Church authorities either killed or persecuted those who first translated the Bible into vernacular. But looking back I now realize that maintaining this ignorance was all part of the agenda. Most conservative Christians despise theology and refuse to teach it to their members. Questions are dangerous. History is suppressed and lies are told about other religions. The hypocrisy here is glaring as the leaders of any given Church have probably gone through seminary and have read theology, studied some philosophy and know the complex history of Christianity. But the same process of investigating and doubting is readily denied to lay people by conservative Christians. Worse yet it is often framed as the work of the devil. Much can be said about the ignorance of Christians and need for more thorough education but this essay is about prayer so I digress.

[quaker bill]

1. If you read the whole article

it is actually pretty good, and not inconsistent with the approach taken by many Quakers.

[sendero]

2. Because he doesn't exist..

.. at least not in the form cited by organized religion.

[Scuba]

3. If He/She did....

...the home team would win every game.

...everyone would be healthy.

...there would be a lot more "snow days".

...there would be World Peace.

[Stevenmarc]

4. You mean God's not a magical, wish granting, micro manager

[gratuitous]

11. Well, now that you've turned 10 . . .

Perhaps it's time to develop a slightly more, shall we say, mature :shrug: understanding of faith? Yes, it's always gratifying to watch the transition from child to young adult. For most folks, those are called the teen-age years. For other folks (and I don't have anyone specific in mind *cough*CaribouBarbie*cough*), it's called menopause.

[Stevenmarc]

26. It's called

Sarcasm, you might get that once your stick is removed, we'll simply have to have faith that it will.

[hobbit709]

5. My favorite quote.

"Pray, v. : To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy." ~ Ambrose Bierce

[burnsei sensei]

6. But isn't the real point of

monotheism that God stands apart from the creation. And if he stands apart, can he not just as easily stand away from the creation?
If it is perfect, why should he intervene?
A stance like that grants humanism more space, and humanity much more responsibility for what happens to it.

[Bandit]

12. An excellent reason why prayer is absurd.

Humans are on their own.

[Obamanaut]

7. When we created god in our imagination, we failed to imagine him some ears. nt

[brooklynite]

8. Not that I particularly care (since I don't believe in God), but...

...the OP isn't very well edited. The title, and the subject matter of the source article is "Why God Doesn't listen to your Prayers", but the extract focuses on the personal history of the author and criticism about religious organizations, NOT about the flaws in people's understandings about prayer.

[Fumesucker]

9. God answers all prayers..

The answer is usually "No".

[Vinnie From Indy]

10. I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock)

Matthias: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah".
(Everyone gasps)
Jewish Official: You're only making it worse for yourself!
Matthias: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
Jewish Official: I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock) RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?
Stoners: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!
Jewish Official: Was it you?
Stoner: Yes.
Jewish Official: Right...
Stoner: Well you did say "Jehovah. "
(Crowd throws rocks at the stoner)
Jewish Official: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah. "

(Crowd stones the Jewish Official to death)

[sl8]

13. Satellites.

Report: 32% Of Prayers Deflected Off Passing Satellites

HOUSTON—According to an official NASA report released Saturday, nearly 32 percent of all prayers exiting Earth are deflected off satellites orbiting the planet—ultimately preventing the discharged requests for divine intervention from ever making it to the Gates of Heaven. "After impact with the satellite, these diverted prayers typically plummet back into the atmosphere, where they either burn up or eventually land, unanswered, in a body of water," the report read in part. "Of the remaining prayers, research confirms 64 percent fail to make it past the stratosphere because they aren't prayed hard enough, 94 percent of those with enough momentum are swallowed by a supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, and 43 percent are eaten by birds." The report concluded that, of the 170 billion prayers issued last month, one made it to God, whose reply was intercepted by a hurricane and incorrectly delivered to a Nigerian man who reportedly did not know what to do with his brand-new Bowflex machine.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-32-of-prayers-deflected-off-passing-satelli,6067/

[izquierdista]

14. Try Joe Pesci

Joe Pesci comes through on a few things that God has trouble with.

[uberllama42]

34. George Carlin FTW

He was my hero.

[struggle4progress]

15. "... Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other.

It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh. If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in ..."

- Abraham Lincoln, Saturday, 4 March 1865

These are scarcely new issues; they were not even new a century and half ago, or a millennium and a half ago

[darkstar3]

17. And there's the rub.

God hasn't been answering prayers for many centuries, which obviously leads to the usually galling question of "Where is your God?"

You and I most likely have differing views on the creation/first mover debate, but let me ask you a question that you or any believer can feel free to answer at your leisure: Putting aside the question of universal origin which neither of us can answer to the other's satisfaction, in what way would this world be different if there were no God?

[struggle4progress]

19. I rather doubt we even see the same text. From my point of view, you've staked out a little hilltop

to defend, and I say -- Keep it. You're welcome to it. Perhaps it has some interest to someone, but it has minimal interest to me

[darkstar3]

21. It was a simple question,

and it will be an interesting and enlightening intellectual exercise for you if you are brave enough to try and answer it.

[struggle4progress]

24. Your argument is with someone else or with a figment of your imagination: it is not a discussion

with me

As I find little evidence you understand my background or any of my views, I consider you ill-prepared to lecture me about what might be "brave" of me or what I should find "enlightening"

[darkstar3]

25. No, my argument was with you,

my comments stemming from your statement that these issues regarding unanswered prayers are older than most people suspect. Run away if you choose, as I care not, but the question I asked was pertinent to this thread and to your earlier statement.

[struggle4progress]

27. Since you harbor suspicions I secretly worship some Teutonic fertility goddess, I doubt

the usefulness of any other supposed "insights" you have into my religious views

[skepticscott]

28. Hope you're enjoying the 24th 1/2 century

You were definitely a worthy candidate for the Duck Dodgers Club.

[ironbark]

36. +1..........n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. The answer is simple actually

Ya see, God has gone on vacation for two weeks to Dollywood in TN and, sadly, will not be available for the next 1.8 million human years. As an added bummer, his email is full and won't accept new messages.

[struggle4progress]

18. While I agree with much of this piece, it is in many ways contaminated by ignorance, and it rambles

carelessly from one topic to another

Of course, a religion that promises some magical vending machine, into which one deposits some sort of token to receive some product in return, is not a particularly interesting or profound religion -- but most people in most of daily life don't behave as if they believe in such magic vending machines; for example, they don't expect basic necessities simply to fall like manna from heaven upon them

I personally think it's a mistake to engage in sweeping stereotypes: Most conservative Christians blah blah blah. It's a cheap pretense of knowledge; if you don't actually know "most conservative Christians," perhaps it's just dishonest to speak for them. The Jehovah's Witnesses usually drive me up the wall; I have little understanding of their views -- but when push-came-to-shove in Nazi Germany, the Witnesses (almost alone in the entire country) were willing to stand up and say, You can imprison me or kill me, but I won't give the Hitler salute. It's just a ugly habit to sneer at everyone we don't understand

History is not always transparent, and commonplace knowledge is often wrong. When the author says, And lets not forget about the close relationship between the Nazi Party and the Catholic Church, the author is simply being an ignorant asshole. It is, of course, true that some very conservative Catholics supported the Nazis. But it is also true that before the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, Catholics were considerably less likely to support that Nazis than most Germans were, and in a number of Catholic dioceses Nazi Party members were not permitted to take communion. Shortly after Hitler's appoint at Chancellor, the Reichstag burned and the next morning saw promulgation of the Emergency Decree; the Enabling Act was not far behind; competing political parties were outlawed; and the Hitler salute became mandatory. Before this period, the Catholic political parties and Catholic youth organizations had considerable influence; and the Nazis relentlessly set out to smash the those parties and organizations, with substantial violence and dishonest legalism. Catholic youth organization members were assaulted on the streets; the Catholic press was shut down, and its equipment was confiscated. Leading Catholics opponents of the Nazis were murdered on the Night on Long Knives, along with other persons regarded as threats to the Hitler government. As the Nazi consolidation of power continued in following years, substantial Church property was appropriated by the government. It is very easy to snicker seventy-five years later, when one hears no jackboots in the street outside and does not hear of friends vanishing in the middle of the night, that various people did not understand well what was happening nor do a good job of responding it. It's true the Catholic Church didn't do a particularly good job responding to the Nazis after 1933: unfortunately, by the way, neither did anybody else, as one sees from Chamberlain's sad "Peace in our time" capitulation or by examining US foreign policy towards the Nazis in mid-30s

[darkstar3]

20. Your own post is contradictory.

Allow me to illustrate:

Of course, a religion that promises some magical vending machine, into which one deposits some sort of token to receive some product in return, is not a particularly interesting or profound religion -- but most people in most of daily life don't behave as if they believe in such magic vending machines; for example, they don't expect basic necessities simply to fall like manna from heaven upon them

emphasis added

Contrast that statement with the one immediately following in the next paragraph:

I personally think it's a mistake to engage in sweeping stereotypes: Most conservative Christians blah blah blah. It's a cheap pretense of knowledge; if you don't actually know "most conservative Christians," perhaps it's just dishonest to speak for them.

Do you know "most people", or 3.4 billion individuals?

Aside from that glaring contradiction, there is also the fact that your claim about religion is simply counter to the experiences of other members of this board. I live in the bible belt, where the vast majority of religious adherents I've met are Christian, and the vast majority of those have indeed treated their god as a "magical vending machine", or if I could borrow from Semisonic, a "Secret Santa in the sky." Darkspouse's entire extended family, for example, fits this description so well it's almost creepy to watch. You may not view your god in that fashion, but that by no means precludes others from doing so.

Furthermore, let's step away from the petty, small, everyday "vending machine" prayers like "God, please let Johnny call in sick today so I don't have to put up with him," and step into the arena of OTHER unanswered prayers. That's what we're talking about here, just general unanswered prayers, not prayers of a specific kind that seem to be ignored. What about all the Christians who pray to God to protect this country and the men fighting overseas? In fact, what about all the prayers of protection offered all over the world that go unanswered and leave behind corpses, devastated families and swaths of destruction? A) You can't deny that thousands of these prayers, possibly millions, are offered up worldwide everyday, and B) the cold, hard fact is that the statistics of death and destruction would look exactly the same if these prayers were never given. God does not answer prayer, and it is up to each individual to decide why.

[struggle4progress]

22. This "vast majority of religious adherents" you know -- they mostly

work regular jobs, don't they? And when hungry, don't expect food to appear on the table from nowhere? And when they want to go somewhere, they get in their autos and drive there, rather than praying tio be transported there by magic? And most of them, when ill, buy medicines?

The simple fact is, that in almost all aspects of their daily lives, they do not act as if they believe in magic vending machines ...

[darkstar3]

23. Your hyperbole is ridiculous as usual, and your last sentence entirely wrong.

They DO act daily as if they believe in a magic vending machine. They pray to win the lottery, they pray for petty work related things, they pray for God to LITERALLY speak to them and tell them if they should take traffic route A or B to work today, they pray for all manner of things every single day that absolutely show they believe in a "Secret Santa in the sky."

ETA: No comment whatsoever about your glaring hypocrisy? No one can generalize about others except for you, I take it?

[onager]

30. Now why would they believe in a celestial vending machine...?

...but most people in most of daily life don't behave as if they believe in such magic vending machines; for example, they don't expect basic necessities simply to fall like manna from heaven upon them.

Bonus Irony Award: "manna from heaven" itself being one of those miracles that provided "basic necessities," of the sort that Gawd apparently stopped doing a few thousand years ago. As I remember from Sunday School, that story is pretty funny. Having narrowly survived starvation by the magic manna falling from the sky, the Israelites had the gall to bitch that they were getting tired of it. Then God Itself got irked and said, in God-Speak: "You ain't seen nothing yet. You ungrateful bastards are going to eat this crap till it comes out your noses."

Of course, modern believers know the Bible is allegorical most of the time except when it's literal, and in one of the real Biblical miracles, sometimes the same passage can be both simultaneously.

e.g., the following verses, which seem pretty unequivocal. Though I can't wait for the learned interpretations, explaining why they DON'T mean exactly what they say:

Matthew 7: 7 - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened...
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 11: 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened...
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15: 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

[trotsky]

31. Name-calling, insults, nasty attitude.

It is absolutely hilarious that you condemn these things in others yet you throw out a wretched post like this. Rather than prove any claims wrong, you merely insult the author, and then provide some counter-examples that don't disprove the claims at all. Kind of like me saying "The Bush Administration was incredibly cozy with the oil industry" and you countering by saying "Well there was this one inspection in 2004 that resulted in a fine against Exxon."

[laconicsax]

29. 'cause he wins either way.

If someone prays to God and things go how they want, who gets the credit? God.

If someone prays to God and things don't go well, who gets the blame? Not God.

Of course, all of this presupposes that there's a supernatural celestial dictator listening to your every thought, and making decisions based on your wishes.

[Vampire Knight]

32. Actually, I agree with a lot of this.

Don't know that it exactly answers the question originally posed so much, but many of the points have excellent merits.

"As a result of my superficial upbringing as a Christian I was ignorant, Biblically illiterate, and theologically naive".

You know, it was much easier for the church power structures to maintain this ignorance when books were few and expensive and translation of the Bible was disallowed. Now they have to work much harder to prevent people from educating and empowering themselves about their beliefs. It is a real testament (no pun intended) to people's faith in manmade institutions of superstition that many churches can still maintain this level of ignorance even with a Bible in your own language on nearly every bookshelf and in all libraries. It's spiritually and intellectually barbaric.

Most of the stuff I know about theology is self-taught. I have shelves of books. No one helped me sort through it.



"This ignorance and obedience to Church leaders (most always men) is commonplace in conservative Christianity".

Which is why I won't go to most churches. As I mentioned in other threads, I am very much a feminist, so any time some man tells me that my God made him automatically superior because of his gift of outdoor plumbing, it makes me fly into a screaming rage.

My last church that I went to for any amount of time was in Dallas. They actually taught theology there, which is probably why I stayed for so long. But I got into it with the leadership because I wouldn't "submit" to the low-level bureaucrat of a women's leader that they thought I should obey. I'm not a girly girl, and I don't play ball with all the catty games that church women get into, so I essentially told her to keep her nose in her own business. They wanted to pry into every detail of my personal life, my friendships, my crushes, my enemies...I didn't give them anything, so I was pretty much disavowed. They even had late night "come to Jesus" meetings to try and break me. They wanted me to submit to "Christian counseling". I'm embarrassed that I put up with that shit for so long. It's glaringly obvious now that it was a cult. Eventually, I just walked out quietly and never went back.



"Most have no idea that for much of Christian history common people never read the Bible. In fact the Church authorities either killed or persecuted those who first translated the Bible into vernacular."

Indeed. I get so irritated with all of those "the King James Version is the only real, God-endorsed version of the Bible". They don't even know the history of the translation of the Bible. They don't know what the hell they're talking about and it's so irrational. I used to post in Christian forums. I'd post a verse to support or rebut a particular argument, and one of these idiots would come back with the King James translation of the same verse, telling me that I had erred because I didn't use the "real" translation. They won't even accept that the King James translation was based on a botched Latin translation. And don't get me started on the Catholics.



"The hypocrisy here is glaring as the leaders of any given Church have probably gone through seminary and have read theology, studied some philosophy and know the complex history of Christianity."

The really scary ones are often the ones that HAVEN'T gone through seminary... But then again, the ones that have are bad in their own ways. They're institutionalized, and dedicated to the hierarchy.





Perhaps the writer is saying that God did not answer his prayers because he didn't even know to what/Whom he was praying. I guess that would make sense. There are a lot of people who could be praying to Baal for all they know about their faith. I made a real effort to learn about what I was believing, and I still am learning. I have actualized my faith to my own research and experience, and that makes it all the stronger. Because my faith is my own, I am not truly welcome in most churches after they figure out what I am, nor can I adapt myself to fit their predetermined models. I've never overtly been asked to leave, but the message is always clear: get with the program, shut up, or get out. The first will gain you a modest (but never high) position with the leadership, if they make any allowances for female leadership. The second will get you cordiality. The last will preserve your sanity. Little wonder, I usually pre-emptively choose the latter.

[ironbark]

37. Enjoyed your post

Not often we get a considered response with as much meat on it.

In haste, don't have time to respond to much...

But this struck me-

"Perhaps the writer is saying that God did not answer his prayers because he didn't even know to what/Whom he was praying."

I find the different expectations and purposes of prayer intriguing…

Some/many seem to expect to >get< something- guidance, answers, assistance, money, shelter, healing, saved…..whatever.

There are of course many spiritual traditions that contain no such expectations of prayer and consciously reject such begging bowl approach.

For some the point and purpose of prayer is to direct attention and focus towards the divine…. asking nothing more than to draw nearer.

[Silent3]

33. I'm not sure which type of mental gymnastics is the most amazing:

1) The kind of mental gymnastics a born-again Christian like my sister, who prays to Sweet Jesus for things as trivial as parking spaces close to the entrance of the mall, have to perform in order to reconcile all of the unanswered prayers in this world for far more important things with thinking, at least when the convenient parking space does appear, that God Himself has orchestrated that supposed "miracle" on her behalf.

...or...

2) The kind of mental gymnastics needed by someone who fully recognizes that no one is out there answering prayers, but desperately wants to save the notion of "prayer" as some vaguely special and mystical activity which goes through supernatural contortions to come out at a place for which nothing mystical or supernatural is required.

[trotsky]

39. No offense to your sister, of course...

but I think I'm more impressed by #2, since the people in that position tend to be those who have thought about their beliefs more, and who are in general intellectually deeper than the people described by #1. They're oh-so-close to accepting reality as it is, but just can't leave the old security blanket behind.

[tinrobot]

35. I always viewed prayer as a form of meditation.

Sure, 7 year olds and people who support Sarah Palin might expect a "vending machine in the sky" when they pray. But that juvenile definition of prayer is simply a way to stack the deck in favor of the author's thesis.

People who pursue a spiritual path beyond those trivialities don't pray for things, they pray for guidance and insight.

One way to get guidance and insight is to clear one's head of extraneous thoughts so one's intuitive side can speak. It's not so much asking God to listen, but rather the other way around. The person praying is listening to the silence (or what some call God.) Christians may call it praying to God, but in essence, it's a form of meditation.

In that light, prayer can have great value and power, as can any form of meditation - religious or secular.

[ironbark]

38. Didn't see your post untill I had posted #37

Seems to me to be along the same lines.

And fully agree-
"In that light, prayer can have great value and power, as can any form of meditation - religious or secular."

[skepticscott]

40. So in other words

you're not doing anything that requires a "god" to pray TO. All of the actions and the results of prayer are exactly as you would expect if there is no "god". So why do you even need a religion to embed prayer in?

[tinrobot]

41. You certainly don't need religion to meditate/pray

But that wasn't really the point. Just because someone prays or meditates in a religious context does not mean that their practice is less or more powerful than someone who does it in a non-religious context.

Some people learn to meditate at their therapist's office, some learn it as prayer in a church or temple, some learn to meditate in an ashram. I personally learned to meditate with a bunch of Sikhs. It doesn't mean I'm going to start wearing turbans and grow out my beard, but the meditations themselves are very beneficial for me. They work quite well. In fact, lot of these ancient teachings are still around simply because they do work. If they didn't resonate with people on some level, they would have faded away a long time ago.

[skepticscott]

42. The point is

that whether you call it "meditation" or "prayer" or "hiking the Appalachian Trail", why clutter the process up with non-existent god-beings? The point is that many people's prayers ARE about asking a god-being for stuff they want and can't get or achieve themselves. The point is that the reason most of those requests go unanswered is that there is no one listening and answering. The point is that whatever good the process and ritual may do for someone, the results that ARE achieved look exactly like what you'd expect if there were no gods. Just as everything else in the world does.

[tinrobot]

43. In some ways, I agree with you...

"The point is that many people's prayers ARE about asking a god-being for stuff they want and can't get or achieve themselves. The point is that the reason most of those requests go unanswered is that there is no one listening and answering. "

I totally agree. Like I said in my original post, 7 year olds and people who support Sarah Palin expect a "vending machine in the sky" when they pray. They do not go very deep into the spiritual practices they preach. They look outside themselves for that which their own religion tells them is to be found within. Sadly, they also tend to be the loudest, angriest, and most evangelical.

But those people are certainly not everyone.

I disagree in that the concept of 'god' clutters things up. The concept of "god" varies on a religion by religion, sect by sect basis, so there is no fixed concept of "god." It may clutter it up for you because of your vantage point, but not for others who have a different perspective.

I try to have tolerance for those with different perspectives. If the concept of "god" helps someone to find deep inner peace and happiness, then I can only see that as a good thing.

[darkstar3]

44. That's a big if,

and it's heavily dependent on your definition of the terms "deep inner peace" and "happiness".

Also, your post sounds highly disdainful of adults who pray for material things, making it clear that you see them as immature and uneducated. I have to wonder, would you take offense if the same level of criticism were thrown at believers by an atheist such as myself or skepticscott?

[tinrobot]

46. I'm not disdainful

Maybe it read that way, but I would not look down upon someone praying for food, for example.

However, in my opinion, the prayer that would have the most realizable effect would be prayer for insight, guidance, enlightenment, and so on. So, while prayer won't make food materialize out of thin air, it may help someone gain some sort of insight or change of attitude that could lead to a meal.

"I have to wonder, would you take offense if the same level of criticism were thrown at believers by an atheist such as myself or skepticscott?

I don't usually take offense. I also don't place all believers in one category, so for me, any level of criticism should be nuanced. There's certainly plenty room for criticism, there are a lot of hypocrites in the world. But painting with broad strokes never does much good, no matter what your perspective.

[skepticscott]

50. You seem to be saying that

the prayers most likely to be answered are those which the person doing the praying was capable of answering for themselves all along, which was pretty much the point of the OP. What most heavily indoctrinated religionists fail to realize is that they have the capacity within themselves to accomplish many of the things they expect and hope for from a non-existent god, if only they could rid themselves of the clutter of a god concept. And it IS clutter, btw, since it isn't remotely necessary for explaining or achieving anything.

[ironbark]

52. Out of the “clutter”

“And it IS clutter, btw, since it isn't remotely necessary for explaining or achieving anything.”

Hmmmm…from the clutter of religious belief nothing was achieved.

No moral or legal code advancement…
No art, music or architecture inspired…
No ‘civilizations’ that might be referred to as Hindu or Islamic…
No resulting flowering or fruits for humanity in medicine, mathematics, astronomy…

And Christmas isn’t even fun for the kids.

[skepticscott]

53. None of which

couldn't have been and hasn't been achieved without the necessity of delusions of a supernatural sky daddy. An autocratic European church simply made it virtually impossible for centuries for anyone not cowtowing to them to have a seat at the table, and scared or strong-armed people out of the money they used for their own agrandizement. And let's not forget the grotesque impediments to scientific progress that offended or didn't conform to religious doctrine (impediments which still exist today, btw), as well as heavy censorship of artistic expression for the same reasons.

Try again, and devote a little thought this time. Understand the concept of "necessity" before you weary us with more of the same.

[tinrobot]

54. Religion is a double edged sword.

There are concepts in religious texts that can benefit people.

The flip side is that organized religion has been used as a way to control people and ideas.

When someone talks about the former, you bring up the latter. Your points are valid, but I'm not sure if there's much point in repeating this pattern.

[ironbark]

45. Also agreed

“But those people are certainly not everyone.”

But they make a good target if the concept of religion is to be kept shallow, narrow and simplistic ;-)

“I try to have tolerance for those with different perspectives. If the concept of "god" helps someone to find deep inner peace and happiness, then I can only see that as a good thing.”

I can only add to this that the “deep inner peace and happiness” found needs (for me) to find tangible expression. If it’s just sitting round and feeling good/spiritual I’m left wondering what value it is to the individual/community/world.
There is also “the concept of "god" helps someone to find” the deep desire for justice/social justice/aid and service….and I’m often uncertain as to what degree people so motivated are inspired by “deep inner peace and happiness” ;-)

Sometime it appears to be raging righteous anger….and sometimes rightly so.


The Housemartins- ‘Get up off your knees to pray’

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MJVcD7JNOU

;-)

[tinrobot]

47. Righteous anger certainly has it's place

The civil rights movement was driven by righteous anger.

The key word here is "righteous" - guided by divine or moral law. Finding that divine guidance is the trick.

[ironbark]

48. You mentioned the Sikhs.in #41....

Is there a particular tradition that you embrace or find guidance in?

(Curious agnostic with broad interest, currently in Islam/Baha'i.)

[tinrobot]

56. I wouldn't use the word "guidance"

Since I don't really "follow." I think the more precise term would be "resonate"

I usually do Kundalini Yoga, which involves a lot of mantra and meditation. It was brought here by a Sikh, and so a lot of the mantras are taken from Sikh prayers. Like I said, I don't follow the religion, but the meditations work quite well and resonate with me.

I also spent some time in a Buddhist temple, learning to mediate. I like the philosophy.

Sometimes I just find a quiet space and focus on my breath.

It all works.

[skepticscott]

51. "Divine" guidance isn't necessary

assuming you can even provide a remotely concrete definition of what that means. Humans are quite capable of reasoning about right and wrong and acting on their conclusions without supernatural assistance, if they care to take the trouble.

[tinrobot]

55. Very true

People don't need to have faith to find a moral center.

For some, however, it helps considerably.

Whatever works is fine in my book.

[skepticscott]

59. I might agree with you if it weren't for

all of the hatred, divisiveness and other baggage that religiously based morality (or religiously based anything) inevitably brings with it. There is nothing good to be accomplished by religion that cannot be accomplished without it.

[tinrobot]

60. Inevitably?

I don't agree with that. You're painting with a very broad brush.

[skepticscott]

61. Can you name a time

when absolutism has not existed in Christianity? When religion has not been a force for censorship and repression in some form or another? When different religions have not been in conflict, often violent, murderous conflict, over differences in faith and practice? The fact that these things may not have been happening at every moment in every possible religious setting does not mean that they are not inevitable. Hardly a broad brush to point out what is so very common.

[tinrobot]

62. I never said anything about Christianity.

Obviously you're projecting your own views/biases into my posts, so there's not much point in continuing this discussion.

Peace.

[skepticscott]

63. And I only used Christianity as one familiar example, but

I didn't limit my questions to Christianity now, did I? So why are you using that excuse to dodge them?

And yes, you're right, there's not much point in continuing this discussion, since you seem to have no hard facts to present, only your need to project a sense of feel-goodiness about "religion", "faith" or "belief" in some form or other. A very old story on this board, but not one that carries any weight.

[skepticscott]

49. Well, not if their concept of god

induces them to find deep inner peace and happiness by flying airplanes into buildings. Or by hating and slaughtering anyone else with a different concept of "god". Not such a good thing in those cases, wouldn't you agree? And especially tragic when all of those gods were imaginary to begin with. Not something that any sensible person's concept of "tolerance" should extend to.

[tinrobot]

57. But when a war is waged...

...in the name of a religious text that advocates peace, is that fault of the religious text or those waging war in the name of the text?

When a teabagger holds up the Constitution and says that it doesn't allow people to be taxed or some other nonsense, is that the fault of the Constitution or the person wrapping themselves up in it?

People will always find some way to justify their insanity. Holding up a respected document and claiming it as justification is just one of many ways to do it.

[skepticscott]

58. Except that this is not about religious texts that supposedly have

a single, unambiguous meaning, now is it? You said yourself: "I try to have tolerance for those with different perspectives", but now you seem to be rejecting out of hand other people's interpretations of religious texts that don't square with yours, as if you had a deeper and more accurate insight into what "god" wanted or intended than those "other people". For every passage from the Bible or the Koran that you might cite as advocating peace, others can cite passages advocating something quite different. Hatred of gays is very easy to justify by quoting the Bible, and has been, as have all manner of atrocities perpetrated on one flavor of Xstian by another, all in the name of preserving the "true" version of the faith. Where is your tolerance for those different perspectives? Or is your tolerance in the end just as conditional as mine is, despite your attempts to be wishy-squishy about it?

[Deep13]

64. These are the kind of mental gymnastics I went through...

...before concluding that religion--not most of it, but all of it--was nonsense. The inescapable fact is that the only point of view that explains irreconcilable contradictions of theology is that there is no god or controlling divinity in the universe. With that realization, there is no reason to explain theodicy because it is no longer a contradiction.