I went to church(Catholic) on Sunday...a divisive issue came up..

[Green_Lantern]

Yep...churchgoers were invited to join "40 Days of Life" which included activities like "holding a vigil outside the Planned Parent abortion clinic" and other things not mentioned.

Then they went on to say this will help women in crisis pregnancies and promote "life."

Oddly this wasn't a fiery speech or anything just a guy reading announcement of monthly activities. I'm sure it was something handed down by the bishops.

The part that really bothers me is how they can expect people to want to church when they bring up such a divisive and uncomfortable issue. It's almost like they want to fuel animosity.

I was raised to believe a church should promote unity.

Another example is this ultra-conservative guy at church was selected to give a talk about faith to 8th grade school kids and he launched into a speech about abortion and how his son faced persecution because he was arrested for blocking a clinic.

I'm tired of that self righteous nuttiness.

[virgogal]

1. I dropped out over 40 years ago because of the birth control issue.

Find another church.

[Green_Lantern]

5. I like the individual church...

Just not the hierarchy. I don't donate to any collection for the diocese when asked.

[cbdo2007]

15. As long as your priest isn't going on and on about it.....

it's probably not worth getting too worked up over.

That's what I like about the Priest where we normally go to church, also a Catholic church. He NEVER brings up any of the political issues and the particular church itself is actually mostly liberal...so it's one of those pick and choose your battles things.

Your right it was probably just passed down for him to read off and if you like the rest of the church then I wouldn't worry about it.

[PassingFair]

133. Speak out against it.

Start your own "choice" group.

[Bigmack]

112. I dropped out about 55 years ago...

because I hit puberty.

Church .... "Sex bad"

Me.... "Sex good"

Bu-bye church...

[SharonAnn]

They're all wrong on the "Pelvic Issues" as historian Gary Wills says.

[defendandprotect]

2. How does a male-supremacist church support "unity" . . . ???

I was raised to believe a church should promote unity.

And how does a church which is male-supremacist and which preaches intolerance for

homosexuals create "unity"?

[Green_Lantern]

3. well that's my point...

But they don't discuss gay rights issues the way they do at Catholic Churches.

[defendandprotect]

16. So if they don't remind you that they're anti-homosexual, then it doesn't bother you?

If they don't remind you that they're male-supremacist, then it doesn't bother you?

If they don't remind you that they're anti-reproductive freedom, then it doesn't bother you?

Your very presence in the church supports their agenda --

[piratefish08]

27. Bravo for this post.

[Green_Lantern]

28. That's not what I meant...

The Bishops speak out on same sex marriage propositions but they don't send announcements to individual churches rallying people to act against it. They do with abortion.

[defendandprotect]

70. I think I understood what you meant -- but was trying to bring this to you

from a higher prospective --

You do know when you are supporting male-supremacist religion, right?

How could that be a good idea?

From the highest perspective the Vatican is anti-female and anti-homosexual --

whether they are "rallying" members by announcements to individual churches or not --

their position is concrete . . . is it not?

And in regard to their anti-abortion activities, they are not only now "rallying" people

or trying to -- but there is every reason to believe that they have been supporting various

VIOLENT elements in the anti-abortion wars.

Again -- your simple presence in any Catholic Church is an encouragment of their agenda.

[Green_Lantern]

86. they don't support violence against clinics

I've seen no evidence of that. I'm not sure it's necessarily male supremacist, maybe some within it are but all organizations have their nuts.

[defendandprotect]

106. You're not sure that the Vatican is male-supremacist . . . . ????

Obviously you've read nothing that I've posted to you --

What do you think is going on when the Vatican denies full personhood to females --

denies them a role in ritual and authority within the church?

Do you think that's a celebration of womanhood?


I doubt that the Vatican would be announcing that they were financing violence at

women's clinics -- but there seems to be evidence of those connections.

Unfortunately, our FBI hasn't been investigating these events as "domestic violence."

The Catholic and Mormon Churches, however, did use tax exempt dollars to defeat the

ERA amendment - quite successfully.

Certainly a church which supported their own priest pedophiles by not reporting them

and moving them from parish to parish can be relied upon for moral responsibility!



These two churches are notorious for their church schools run at the behest of our

government in its efforts to destroy the native American. These were prior examples

of abuse of young children -- sexual abuse, violence, hangings, beatings, torture.


You're not sure that the Vatican is male-supremacist . . . . ????



:eyes:


:rofl:

[Green_Lantern]

135. the Catholic church doesn't teach that women are...

Inferior to men. Married men aren't ordained as priests either so does that mean the Church hates married men?

[Tailormyst]

153. They absolutely are.

A married man can indeed become a priest. A man who is ALREADY a priest cannot marry. There are also male Deacons who are married.

Females are relegated to become nuns. Teachers and servants to the diosese.

If you are going to defend your church, at least know what the hell you are talking about.

You are a member so you OWN IT, good and bad.

[Green_Lantern]

155. that's not true at all...

Every single member of a group isn't responsible for the bad elements of the group.

[Tailormyst]

156. So, although the KKK is a bad group overall and who's views are racist and bigotted

The INDIVIDUAL klan folks really aren't. Again, if you are going to defend the catholic church, you can at least OWN IT. You are a member of a bigoted organization. OWN IT. Don't tap dance around the horseshit pretending to only see the flowers.

You are a member of an organization who is openly anti-gay and anti-woman.

If you don't like hearing the truth then I suggest you put us "fanatical, leftie radicals" on ignore.

[Green_Lantern]

160. apples to oranges...

Are there individual KKK members that aren't bigots and racist?

There are plenty of Catholics who don't dislike gay people.

THE TRUTH isn't that all catholics are bad....

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

167. This reply comes close to answering the question . . .

of whether you're trying to fool us or fool yourself -- !!

Yes, of course "individual KKK members are bigots and racist" --

why do you think they're there? Or do you imagine they are all FBI

agents checking up on the KKK?

Evidently, another large part of your confusion is in not understanding

that criticism of the church is directed at the church and its leaders --

the hierarchy of the church -- those who set church doctrine --

And no one here criticizing the church has any problems with the members who

simply follow those teachings.

Granted, we are asking that those members exercise some of their gray matter

and give this all some thought rather than being obedient servants of the church.

A boo now and then when anti-gay or anti-abortion or anti-female rhetoric bounces

down from the altar would be encouraging!!

[Green_Lantern]

180. I agree with everything you said...

Which is why I am pro-choice and support same sex marriage. I have no problem criticizing the hierarchy myself but like my priest and church.

[defendandprotect]

169. It is true . . . while you don't set church policy, by being there you support it --

and therefore you "own" it --

[Green_Lantern]

158. a married man cannot become a priest in most cases...

The Pope has to give express authorization in some limited cases to ministers of other faiths who join Catholicism and wish to be ordained yet already have families.

Married men can become deacons but if a single man is ordained he cannot be married.

Funny, the nuns I know don't feel "relegated" to it, they feel like it's their purpose in life.

[Tailormyst]

163. Yes, because even if they did I am sure they would just chat you up about it.

There are some good books out there written by former nuns. Given the choice I would dare say most would have chosen to become priests.

[defendandprotect]

170. Most of the nuns left the church . . . that's why the Catholic schools were in such dire

straights -- !!

The nuns were the ones who ran the schools!



AND, most of the priests have left the church --

and that's why so many parishes have had to import priests from other

countries -- and/or run without a parish priest.

[olegramps]

215. Also if your wife dies and you are a deacon you can't remarry.

These people are paranoid when it comes to sex.

[defendandprotect]

166. Unfortunately, the church does teach the inferiority of females . . .

and long taught that they should be beaten --

As I mentioned before -- but I'll repeat it for you . . .

"The Vatican continues to refuse to acknowledge the full personhood of females

as it confirms the full personhood of males."

Further -- barring women from ritual and authority within the church is a strong

statement that women are "less" not only in the eyes of church leadership, but in

the eyes of its "god."

The fact that married men are not ordained means nothing except that the church

wants to escape inheritance claims they once suffered. It is also a further signal

of distrust of relationships with females.

How's your gray matter doing these days?

[movonne]

4. I think maybe the new pope made this stuff the important things,,and

I think it will bite him one of these days...most people are not as rigid as he is trying to make it..before he was make pope I don't remember so much controversy...

[Green_Lantern]

6. I think Vatican 2 is being chipped away...

Individual churches have less autonomy.

[defendandprotect]

18. There was an immediate coup on Vatican II . . . it's dangerous stuff --

it's what's all of patriarchy is underepinned by . . .

Rejection of patriarchy's all male god!

Putting a compassionate and humane face on the church!

Acknowledging the right to freedom of conscience -- even in regard to making up

one's own mind about birth control!

Kicked Papal "infallibility" in the ass!!

The right wing CIA Pope ended Liberation Thelology!!

Brought Opus Dei back in!!

[olegramps]

216. You are addressing issues that the vast majority of Catholics know nothing about.

[burrowowl]

22. Vatican 2 and John XXIII

and Liberation Theology, etc. being vanished.
John Paul II sanctifies the Fascist Founder of Opus Dei, an organization John XXIII distrusted and rightly so.
Is the Church being backed by Corpofascists?
YES!

[defendandprotect]

71. Agree . . . "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are

licenses to permit exploitation of the planet -- nature, natural resources, animal-life --

and even other human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."

Capitalism was invented by the Vatican when their Feudalism proved insufficient to run

their Papal States!

Male-supremacist religion is the underpinning for patriarchy and capitalism!!

:)

[Green_Lantern]

84. that's inaccurate....

Adam Smith created capitalism, not the Vatican.

Secondly the Pope recently called for environmental responsibility:

"Nevertheless, in this moment, I would like to underline the importance of the choices of individuals, families and local administrations in preserving the environment," the Pope told the thousands of faithful gathered in St. Peter's Square.

"An objective shared by all, an indispensable condition for peace, is that of overseeing the earth's natural resources with justice and wisdom."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6000G220100101

[defendandprotect]

105. Vatican invented capitalism . . .

And . . .

The Vatican remains responsible for their FULL and TOTAL history . . .

not simply what they did yesterday -- !!

"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" still stand --

And not so long ago one of the Popes was telling us that the Elites are "good guys"!

Pope before this one made an appearance before Italian government and told them they

should make Italian women have more babies -- for the sake of economic growth!

The church is speaking out of both sides of its mouth on many issues -- from war to the

economy. One of the main stresses on the planet is overpopulation which the Vatican

ignores -- in their own self interest. Which is why they continue to endeavor to regain

control over women and reproduction and deny their members the right to their own personal

conscience even the most private of issues -- birth control!

You can't be wearing satin pumps and embroidered garments and getting carried

around on a throne while the Vatican is worth billions - if not trillions --

and tell me that you're concerned about the poor, the homeless or the planet!

This, more than the usual misattribution of the word ‘capitalism’ to Adam Smith, when, of course, the word itself was first used in English in 1854 in a novel, The Newcomes, written by William M. Thackeray, and Smith died in 1790.

http://adamsmithslostlegacy.com/2009/05/adam-smith-and-capitalism.html



The Catholic Roots of Capitalism
From the desk of The Brussels Journal on Fri, 2005-12-16 10:58
A quote from David Brooks in The New York Times, 15 December 2005

In his new book, '”The Victory of Reason,” the Baylor sociologist Rodney Stark argues that the West grew rich because it invented capitalism. That’s not new. What’s unusual is his description of how capitalism developed. The conventional view, embraced by most of his fellow cultural determinists, is that during the Renaissance and Reformation, Europeans shook off the authority of the Catholic Church. When a secular world was created alongside the sacred one, when intellectual freedom replaced obedience to authority, capitalism and scientific advances were the result. <…>

But the more we learn, the more we realize that most of the progress we link to the Renaissance or later years actually happened during the Middle Ages. <…>

Five hundred years before Adam Smith, St. Albertus Magnus explained the price mechanism as what “'goods are worth according to the estimate of the market at the time of sale.” Catholic monasteries emerged as capitalist enterprises, serving not only as manufacturing and trading centers, but also as investment houses.

<…> These innovations and discoveries, Stark argues, were not made by the newly secular, but by people who had a distinctly Christian sense of the sacred. Catholic theology had taught them that God had created the universe according to universal laws that reason could discover. It taught that knowledge and history move forward progressively, so people should look to the future, not the past.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/578

[liberal_at_heart]

13. The last pope was pretty good at reaching out to diverse groups

He was too old and sick to properly do his job which in my opinion is why the child molestation cases weren't delt with but he was good at reaching out to different religions and cultures. He did believe in unity. He was not a divisive leader. This new pope is very divisive. He wants to put the Catholic church in a place of power and control like they had back in the Middle Ages of Europe.

[defendandprotect]

19. How is it not "divisive" to base a church on male-supremacy . . . ???

How is it not "divisive" to teach intolerance for homosexuals?

How is it not "divisve" for the church/Vatican to refuse to acknowledge the

full personhood of females as it acknowledges the full personhood of males?

How is it not "divisive" to be anti-democracy and equality for all?

[Green_Lantern]

29. I wasn't saying it's not divisive...

But I think it's more prevalent now.

[defendandprotect]

72. My response was to liberal_at_heart -- however . . .

The Vatican has always been male-supremacist --

it's what patriarchy and capitalism are based upon -- it's the underpinning for those systems.

Being anti-female is nothing "new" for the church --

Nor is being anti-democracy anything "new" for the church --

It has always been a system of male-supremacy!!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

88. You're right, NOT JUST THE CATHOLICS, ALL CHRISTIANS

are patriarchal and male supremacist--even if they ordain women.

WHY? because the trinity is all male, the father, son and holy ghost are ALL MALE. No place for females in that. Now if anyone has seen a Christian church that teaches that the holy trinity is female in any way, I would like to know about it. It does not exist.

I'm not counting Unitarian Universalists. They are not explicitly Christian, they use teachings from many different traditions. I've been a UU for thirty years and refuse to go to any other church.

[Green_Lantern]

89. well the Catholic church

Teaches that Mary was the mother of God. Male supremacy is a fact of history. Thankfully we're past that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

100. I don't think we're past male supremacy, not by a long shot.

Men are not superior, they just think they are superior to women.

Referring to Mary does not answer the question. Mary is not part of the Holy Trinity, when I last checked.

In fact, the Protestants think it's horrible that Mary is revered and prayed to as an intercessor.
I think the Prots and Catholics are both a bunch of woman-dissing misogynists.

Goddess worship had to be assimilated into Catholicism, because the native religions believed in male and female gods both, so Mary is revered.

[lazarus]

107. See, that's just wrong

"Men are not superior, they just think they are superior to women."

That's a really broad brush, and as a man who freely admits his wife is superior to him, I'm offended.

[defendandprotect]

110. Evidently, you think you're patriarchy . . . ???

Unlikely -- unless you are in control of much more than your keyboard!

Males as well as females are exploited and abused by patriarchy --

[lazarus]

111. You didn't make that distinction

"Men are not superior, they just think they are superior to women."

Not "some men," not "patriarchal men." Thanks for the clarification.

[defendandprotect]

125. Nor did I say that --

another poster did --

Rather, I'd suggest that male-supremacists understand that when women are

equal, they are superior.

[lazarus]

130. sorry, misread who was responding

But that poster did not make a distinction, painted all men as thinking we're superior.

[defendandprotect]

131. I think that's kinda the way you understood it --

some males do play the patriarchal game of superiority --

some don't -- many here don't -- some do --

[defendandprotect]

109. True . . that's how Ireland was finally "converted" ---

though much of these conversions "introduced the sword with the cross" --

but Bridget was one of the most popular Irish goddesses, if I remember correctly.

They told them that the "Virgin Mary" was Bridget --

[defendandprotect]

108. You think "Mary" is part of the "Holy Trinity" . . . ???

We are not past patriarchy -- it is very much with us --

And the Vatican is part of the underpinning for patriarchy and its violence --

[Tailormyst]

150. You don't understand church teaching then

Mary is just a mere mortal. A vessel. Nothing more. her value is only in that she gave birth. The Trinity is the Father, the Son and NO, not the Mother, but the "holy spirit". The female has little place beyond servant and mother within the church. They cannot hold a place of power. Mary is not a Goddess.

[defendandprotect]

168. And remember, Mary's importance was also based on her virginity -- !!!

The "virgin" birth -- !!!

:evilgrin:

The church also in a further insult to womanhood developed a sacrament of

"candling" which purified them after having given birth!!!

[Green_Lantern]

188. there is no sacrament of "candling"

Prove it

[Tailormyst]

151. dupe

[defendandprotect]

104. You might remember that . . .

the beloved Pope John XXIII -- began talking of a male-female god --

that was within his other cmpassionate and humane teachings in Vatican II --

Personally, I think they got rid of him and one or two of the next Popes!

Recovering Catholic here -- !!

That was the 60's and youth revolution, JFK, Krushchev, and Pope John XXIII all

seemed to be working it out -- then BANG!

[ButterflyBlood]

179. Some Christian groups do treat the Holy Spirit as feminine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_the_Holy_Spirit

[defendandprotect]

185. The gods and goddesses who preceded the "one all male god" . . .

were in some part carried over into the patriarchal teachings -- they could not

be immediately dismissed.

The Irish goddess, Bridget, was given to be the Blessed Virgin in "converting" the Irish,

for one.

In all of the major patriarchal religions you will find references to female goddesses still.

As all pagan holidays were incorporated into the new patriarchy, so were female goddesses

when they could not be immediately dropped. Many were disguised, many were dropped later.

All history is corrupted by patriarchy -- either immediately or later --

In the case of Mary Magdalene, we see that she was made into a prostitute!

Pope John XXIII began the open and clear discussions of a male/female god --

and that period was very quickly followed by a right wing coup from within the Vatican.

The next two Popes were possibly killed --

And one wonders if, in fact, Pope John XXIII died of natural causes?

[Green_Lantern]

190. there is only speculation that St. Bridget...

Was just a myth based on the pagan goddess Brigid.

[defendandprotect]

193. No . .. it's the other way around . . .

The Irish didn't want to give up their goddess -- who was called Brigid/or Bridget --

Therefore they were told that the Virgin Mary was their goddess/Bridget --

Needless to say most conversions were based on violence --

i.e., "Introducing the Cross with the Sword."

[Green_Lantern]

197. that's inaccurate....

Brigid wasn't replaced by the Virgin Mary, the legend is that she became St. Bridget.

[defendandprotect]

199. You do recognize that there was an Irish goddess . . . adored and worshipped in Ireland?

You do recognize that the Irish resisted "conversion" -- ?

The deal that was made was that the Irish could consider the Virgin Mary as

their goddess.

Granted, somewhere along the way, there was a St. Bridget.

THAT was how the gods/goddesses of the natural religions were moved into the

new male-supremacist -- "one all male god" -- religion.

The gods and goddesses could not be immediately disappeared --

And they had to be acknowledged in patriarchal writings -- though over centuries

they were defamed and/or written out of patriarchal history.

Evidence of these goddesses are still buried in Muslim, Jewish and Catholic

history.




old but interesting - Non-Confrontational Pagans - Care2.com
The Goddess Bridget or Bride was so important, the Christians could not dismiss her, so she lives on in ... Bridget Midwife to the Virgin Mary, and ofcourse every woman becomes ...
www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=3188&pst=132792 - 63k - Cached


February
The Virgin Mary myth may have been a way of incorporating a Pagan Roman Goddess into ... and this idea is where the mythologies of Brighid and Mary become fused. ...
www.doveslightcoven.com/Seasonal/february.html - 110k - Cached


And re St. Bridget/Brigid -- there were probably many -- here's one --

Saint Brigid of Kildare or Brigid of Ireland (Brigit, Bridget, Bridgit,or Bríd) (Irish: Naomh Bríd) (c. 451–525) is one of Ireland's patron saints along with Saints Patrick and Columba. Her feast day is 1 February, the traditional first day of spring in Ireland. She is believed to have been an Irish Christian nun, abbess, and founder of several monasteries.

[Green_Lantern]

201. yep I do....

And the star of David is originally taken from combining the triangle symbols of male and female.

[defendandprotect]

205. Male/Female energy -- everyone should know its earlier origins . . .

The mandala of the hexagram, also known as the "Star of David" is much older than Judaism, older even than history! As an archetypal symbol for the sacred union of the opposite energies, it is the "yin-yang" of western civilization. Formed by the intertwining of the "fire" and "water" triangles (the male "blade" and the female "chalice") this symbiol represents the masculine and feminine principles in perfect union, the "sacred marriage" or "hieros gamous" of the ancient world. In India the symbol represents the "cosmic dance" of Shiva and Shakti, and the Jewish Kaballah suggests that the Ark of the Covenant contains, in addition to the tables of the Ten Commandments, "a regular hexagram representing a man and woman in intimate embrace,"


The Cross stands alone as the most controversial symbol in world history! Without question it has also been---and IS ABUSED, MISUSED AND WORSHIPED. To some it is a symbol of terror as used by the KKK and also by Christian crusaders against the Moslems in war. It has also been used in the Christian killing of Jews in the inquisition. It was carried by many slave traders and in the slaughter of Indians in the Americas. It was and is used even today in the religious wars in Europe between Protestants and Catholics. Some of the world's greatest abuse has been done in front of the Cross.

There is hardly a Pagan tribe where the cross has not been found. The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the incarnation and death of Christ.

It was originally a "T" symbolizing male/female -- and a symbol of the goddess Tiamat --


And, as the saying goes, the new church is buried upon the old church --

Anthropologists still find this is so and are still digging up the old goddess --


And what about the Pope covering up priest-pedophile abuse ?

[JerseygirlCT]

58. I think he was gifted with a personality that made him able

to reach out to people - unfortunately that was backed up by some pretty conservative theology. He wrapped things up prettily, but the package wasn't much different than Ratzinger's - after all, Ratzinger is pretty much JPII's hand-picked successor.

Ratzinger has no people skills whatsoever. It highlights his harsh and unyielding theology. But I do not believe they were very different in outlook.

[olegramps]

217. Pope John Paul II was dedicated to the destruction of Vatican II.

He totally ignored the concept of collegiality and believed that he was some kind of mystic. He was infatuated with St. John of the Cross and the other nitwits that believed that they could commune with the divine. He had far more in common with pagan Neo-Platonism than the teaching of Jesus. He even went to the extent of daily self-flagellation. At least John XXIII was sane and saw the need for the church to move out of the Dark Ages.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Green_Lantern]

10. that's a shining example of what I'm talking about...

No tolerance for differing views.

[defendandprotect]

113. You could say that about our Founders who experienced Church violence

and spilling of blood for conversions which soaked the soil of Europe --

THAT'S why our Founders separated Church & State --

Not Church & peanut butter -- but Church & State --

If that's "intolerance" give me more of it!!

What we do have is Vatican intolerance for democracy -- you should pay more

attention to that!!

[Green_Lantern]

136. when did our founders experience church violence?

nt

[defendandprotect]

171. If you didn't know, the answer was in the post --

"in Europe" . . . !!!

In debate, you are supposed to be thinking . . . thinking . .

The Vatican does NOT support democracy -- in fact it works against democracy --

Prop 8 is but one example of that.

Again -- our Founders experienced or understood the threat of church to state --

to secular govenment -- the nature of church dictatorship.

The Vatican has long been based on dictates --

granted, many these days ignore the church, but it took a long time to reach that point.

It took a long time during which citizens were permitted to use their own personal

conscience to make their own decisions -- including whether or not to follow church

dictates -- because of the protections of Separation of Church & State.

[virgogal]

11. Now you cut that out.

[LWolf]

8. That would really bother me, too.

Have you looked into the mar thoma catholic church as an alternative? I know little about them except for their presence in the city I lived in before changing states 5 years ago. The Bishop, now Archbishop, was a leader in the local interfaith council, which is where I first met him; at a Thanksgiving service.

He was the most open and accepting religious leader I'd ever met, regularly meeting with and supporting all faiths, including all non-traditional faiths, in our area.

I don't know if it was just him, or the mar thoma catholic church itself. :shrug:

[FreakinDJ]

9. Where is this church

Here the Catholic church refuses to get involved

[Green_Lantern]

14. St. Louis...

The diocese here is pretty controlling.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. Oh, your bishop is that doosy, yes?

The one so quick to denounce Dem politicians who have the temerity to think the law ought to grant women some right to control their own bodies?

[Green_Lantern]

66. well we just got a new bishop...

But he did the same thing at his previous diocese.

[defendandprotect]

20. But it's still a male-supremacist church/Vatican . . .

how do you put that aside?

[KonaKane]

12. Tax 'em. Tax 'em NOW.

They want to start getting involved in public policy? They can start paying taxes. I'd love to see what the IRS says about it.

[defendandprotect]

114. They've long been playing politics -- from financing anti-ERA campaigns to Prop 8 !!

Historically they have tried to control government --

That's why our Founders gave us Separation of Church & STate --

And, YES -- let's tax them --

not for their church & surrounding property or soup kitchens -- but on their stock

portfolios and real estate holdings!!

Decades ago Vatican was worth $50 Billion at best guess -- imagine what that figure

is now!!

[spanone]

17. churches are way to involved in politics imho

[Roon]

21. After my brother and I came out of the closet...

my Mother has stood up and walked out of a couple of churches when they started their anti-gay crap.

My Mother is a teabagging freeper, go figure.

[defendandprotect]

115. Good for her -- family first -- !!

:)

[Roon]

132. My Mother is so cool..

She's pretty liberal in some areas..but she IDs herself as a conservative.

[Green_Lantern]

143. Family first...

Unless you want to go to church to be with your family :sarcasm:

[WVRICK13]

23. I Have Recovered

from the cult known as the Catholic church and religion in general. I have a brain and choose to use it rather than let strangers tell me what to think while paying them for the privilege.

[Green_Lantern]

26. my family is relatively "religious"...

And certainly not just mindless drones. Many Catholics love the faith but despise the strict orthodoxy.

[Bucky]

24. If you really revere human life, why not hold a vigil or two outside Blue Cross, also?

[defendandprotect]

172. Great suggestion . . . !!!

[DFW]

25. My wife's family had been Catholic since the 15th century

She's from Germany, and has the family genealogy dating back to the year 1473.

She is the first of her family to have left the Catholic church for exactly those reasons.
Our children won't be joining, either. My mother-in-law has accepted it, even understands
why, although she is saddened by it. I don't even know if that makes her a good Catholic
or a bad one.

[Arugula Latte]

30. Simple solution. Stop going. Stop supporting them.

I don't know why some DUers continue to prop up these ass-backwards institutions.

[Green_Lantern]

31. because some of us...

Have families who want to participate in the Catholic faith and we go to be with them. Is that hard to understand?

[Arugula Latte]

32. Yes, it is hard to understand.

Why prop up a corrupt, medieval church that discriminates against women and gays? Why can't you be with your family outside of church?

[igfoth]

33. Get a New Family Then

I stopped going to the RC Church over 25 years ago and yes I have family still in the church and active, a priest and 2 nuns and I told them why I no longer go nor participate with the church. They accepted my choice and did not judge me for my decision.

When one goes to church you have to go for your own self, not just because others do it or it is what I do every Sunday.

The RC Church is not the same as I grew up in and I no longer like the direction the church is taken the last few decades so i basically stopped going.

If your family really loves you they would have no problem with you not going.

[Green_Lantern]

35. well I like the priest and my indvidual church..

So why should I run away from it? But I understand what you're saying.

[Tailormyst]

38. It comes down to this- You are supporting an anti-woman, anti- GBLT instituation

One that even tells poor people in aids infested areas of Africa NOT TO USE CONDOMS.

If that's your choice, OWN IT. Don't hide behind excuses.

I say this as someone raised in the catholic church, Irish, Boston, family. It wasn't easy to walk away.

[Green_Lantern]

42. just not going...

Would be pretty easy.

[Tailormyst]

45. Yup- it is that easy

Don't fill the pew, don't fill the coffers. The hard part is dealing with family. Especially older family members.

[Green_Lantern]

48. it's not that easy for me...

There are reasons I have little choice that are too personal to get into.

[Tailormyst]

51. Well then it is your choice to support the organization, so don't complain

Own it.

That's all I really have to say.

[Green_Lantern]

54. I do nothing to support the organization...

Don't give a dime.

[Tailormyst]

57. That's good!

[mmonk]

63. I understand. It's because you love your family.

The Church is secondary is that regard.

[Toasterlad]

92. If You Think Your Presence Isn't Support, You Better Think Again

Sure, first and foremost the church wants your money. That's what they're in business for. However, just you being there on Sunday enables them to speak for you, whether you like what they say or not. When the pope gets up and says, as the leader of the catholic church, that abortion and homosexuality are evil, he's speaking for you, and your visible support at church gives him the authority to do so.

Calling yourself a catholic, promoting the brand name, and continuing to go to mass despite not agreeing with what is said: you are supporting the catholic church and their hateful, bigoted policies.

[Green_Lantern]

95. no I don't

I don't support those policies by attending a church. The Church doesn't teach that homosexuality is evil.

[Toasterlad]

97. I Can Assure You That the Church DOES Teach That Homosexuality Is Evil

Your particular parish might not make an issue of it, but the official policy of the catholic church (to which you an your parish belong) is that homosexuality is evil.

I can also assure you that by attending a catholic church, you are supporting the church's policies, even the ones that your particular priest doesn't discuss.

[defendandprotect]

116. +1000% . . . . .

either we have some game-playing/leg pulling going on here --

or someone who has been so thoroughly brainwashed by religion that

he has no idea what's going on !! Which might it be?

[Green_Lantern]

138. Its not that it

Teaches that homosexuality is evil. Its a two-sided teaching where it calls it "disordered" and then calls for them to accepted with compassion. I can assure you only if I say I support this do I support this which I don't.

[Toasterlad]

145. I'm Sure a Catholic Could Understand Your Last Sentence.

As I am not a catholic, I do not.

As a former catholic and current gay person, I know much, much more about the catholic church's position on homosexuality than you ever did or will. If your ignorance of the subject helps you sleep at night, good for you. But you're lying to yourself. Just wanted you to know that.

[Green_Lantern]

148. I don't agree with the Church position..

On gays.

[defendandprotect]

173. It teaches intolerance for homosexuals and hatred for them in call them an "abomination" ...!!

You've never heard that from the pulpit?

Again -- if you're there -- you are supporting the church.

[Green_Lantern]

181. no, sorry only heard secular activists on tv...

Calling it an abomination.

[defendandprotect]

186. As they say, "You can't wake up a man pretending to be asleep" . . . !!

[Green_Lantern]

187. I've never had a priest even mention gay people..

Much less condemn it. Have you heard a priest do it?

[defendandprotect]

192. Yep . . .you must lead a very sheltered life . .. ???

Intolerance for homosexuals has often been preached from Catholic pulpits, in my experience --

And certainly part of Church dogma -- teachings!!

Now -- how about the priest-pedophiles . . . have you heard nothing about that either?

[Green_Lantern]

195. as for the first part...

Perhaps we're from different generations and when I grew up in the church our society was a bit more tolerant of gay people. I of course know about the abuse scandal and moving around of pedophiles.

[defendandprotect]

200. Unfortunately, the writings of the church remain . . . they stand . . .

Ask any priest if homosexuality is a "sin" and I think they will tell you

it is -- i.e., part of church teachings.

Good if you are in a church where you are not hearing that homosexuality is

an "abomination." But that doesn't change the reality of what the hierarchy teaches.

And, of course, the tolerance towards homosexuals came from outside the church where

citizens were exposed to the gay rights movement and the reality of homosexuality.

Also, I think the AIDS epidemic helped to enlighten people in regard to the numbers --

and made families less willing to continue to abandon and shun their own homosexual

children.

The Catholic Church has obviously also lost that battle.

Re the priest-pedophile abuse, you might be interested in this --

Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests'by EWAN FLETCHER
Last updated at 22:00 30 September 2006

save church at all costs....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407808/Pope-led-cover-child-abuse-priests.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=407808&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=

"What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.


The document . . .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...men_english.pdf

[Green_Lantern]

203. tolerance for gay people isn't a loss for Catholics...

I know a few gay Catholics who love the faith and are deeply hurt by the intolerance of them.

Also, if I asked my priest if being gay was a sin he'd probably say to worry about my own sins. He's not the type to look down on people.

[defendandprotect]

204. No . . . I said "intolerance" for gays is another lost argument for the Catholic Church . . .

Few support Church teachings on homosexuality -- only a few fanatics --

They've lost the argument on birth control -- they've lost the argument on

abortion --

and they've lost the argument against homosexuals --

If your priest is "not the type to look down on people" ... why would join a church

which does just that?

And, now, how do you like the Pope's policy on protecting priest-pedophiles --???

No comment?

Meanwhile, I've also read that evidently the American taxpayer money given to the

Catholic Church for their "faith-based" religions was to be investigated as it was

suspected that they used it to pay off their priest-pedophile law suits???!!!

[Green_Lantern]

208. why did my priest join the church?

I don't know I assume it's because there's more to the faith besides its position on gay people and abortion.

[defendandprotect]

74. Have you been active within the church to try to change it --???

[Green_Lantern]

81. yes...

I have done so.

[defendandprotect]

117. And . . . what ????

For instance, after your experience on Sunday did you relate your feelings to

the person who made the announcements/sermon?

Or to the pastor re the anti-abortion rally messages?

Or have you expressed your concerns re the violence of the anti-abortion movement?

[Toasterlad]

93. You Can't Change the Church.

The church is not a democracy. The church is an oligarchy. Parishoners have exactly zero say in the church's policies or practices. There is absolutely nothing any parishoner can do to change a fucking thing in the catholic church, except stop going. The only way the catholic church will change is if they lose enough money to force them to.

[defendandprotect]

118. Agree completely . . . however, booing them, or turning one's back to the altar

when some of these subjects come up might begin to get the message across?

What was really interesting was that Pope after Pope John XXIII had set up a panel

of Catholics to study birth control -- it was a beautiful, honest, compassionate

study as I recall reading some of it --

And the Pope was about to declare birth control a matter of personal conscience when

he . . . eh . . . died! Or was knocked off.

So -- you're right -- no one is about to change this male-supremacist church without

a complete revolution by parishioners --

but it would be great to hear some booing nonetheless!!

:evilgrin:

[Toasterlad]

134. To Me, It Is a Black And White Issue.

Frankly, I have more respect for catholics who believe whole-heartedly in their church and what it preaches than I do for cafeteria catholics who feign outrage over the church's homophobia and misogyny, and yet still put their money in the basket and/or show up every week. If you belong to an organization that preaches hate, you belong to a hate group, no matter how much you disagree with some of their policies.

The only moral choice is to leave the church. Staying with the catholic church is an explicit endorsement of its hateful message.

[Green_Lantern]

139. not really...

So people in the military are members of a hate group?

[Toasterlad]

144. Um...What?

The military is a TOOL. It is used by a country to defend a nation or to enforce a policy. The military does not have, in and of itself, an agenda.

The catholic church DOES, and it's one of misogyny and homophobia.

You can't rationalize your decision to remain, and it's stupid to try. You'd be more honest if you'd just admit that you care more about the church than you do about women and gays.

[Green_Lantern]

149. not really...I go because I want to go to church with

My family and they are Catholic. If the Bishops are bigots that's their problem.

[defendandprotect]

176. Why not take the family to brunch . . . ?

You can't speak with your family in a church --

Don't they do anything else but go to church?

Maybe visit a park - have a picnic?



If the Bishops are bigots that's their problem.

IF . . . ???

Amazing that you can't see that on your own . . .


However, it is a problem for all of us -- the church seeks not only to

influence and control all of society by spreading their hatreds, by also

by using their influence over governments to work for a church state.

In other words, a church dictatorship.

[defendandprotect]

175. Yes . . . however, they have no choice . . . by the time they realize it, it's too late ...

Think of Howard Zinn's tale of dropping bombs on a French town at the very end

of WWII when there was absolutely no necessity to do this --

NAPALM BOMBS!!! --

It was only afterwards that Zinn began to question and understand what he had

participated in.

And quite clear that was evil behavior by dark forces within our own government --

Troops in Vietnam figured it out AFTER they were there -- they were drafted ---

How many of our troops in Iraq or Afghanistan do you think would simply walk away from

the wars if they could? They they are worried about their families or about "terrorism"?

In order to send men to war you have to break the male bond with women and children.


YOU have a choice -- you are not being forced to participate.

[defendandprotect]

174. Agree . . . but "booing" could lead to some consciousness raising in the pews--!!!

Think of it as a first step --

[JerseygirlCT]

61. I don't think so

Personally, I'm now an Episcopalian - I could not take the misogyny any more. But my family is still Catholic. I'll attend church with my parents sometimes when I'm home.

[Green_Lantern]

64. Episcopalian church and UCC

Seem to be the most tolerant.

[JerseygirlCT]

68. Well, I have to admit, even w/in the Episcopal church

there are definitely parishes that wouldn't suit me at all - quite conservative. Some diocese still refuse to ordain women, though they're supposed to. But yes, all in all, the difference is about governance (we're a democratic - small d - church, organized similarly to the US gov't as it was shaped by some of the same people) and an outlook that is less about dogma and more about sharing worship. Much more room to think differently than the norm. I'm a known heretic myself, lol.

[defendandprotect]

73. Yes, it is ... if you care for democracy . . . which they oppose --

or if you have any females in your family -- the Vatican is anti-female in it's

outlook and teachings --

And, why support a male-supremacist church with an enemies list -- ??

Certainly homosexuals are on that list and intolerance is still preached by representatives

of the church!

Your presence supports their agenda --

[Green_Lantern]

87. the females in my family are more active in their parishes

Than the men.

[defendandprotect]

119. And what do you base that on . . .

self-hatred?

Or a lack of understanding of what the Vatican is all about?

HOWEVER, you are right, it has always been females who are more spiritual and

who are usually the spiritual leaders in any community.

Of course, no church -- nor middlemen -- are required for true spirituality --

no gods above --

no hell below --

[Green_Lantern]

140. I'm not sure why...

nt

[defendandprotect]

177. Why not ask them . . .

[liberal_at_heart]

127. I don't know your particular situation but I appreciate where you are coming from

My husband has always been agnostic. When I went to a Christian church he always went with me to support me. It never changed his beliefs but he went to support me. I always appreciated that he did that for me. Now that I'm Buddhist I try to go to Chenrazi service when I can but it is kind of far away so I don't really go on a regular basis. When I first started going there and taking classes my husband attended those with me as well. He's also attended a few testimonial services with our Mormon neighbor. He does actually enjoy learning about religion because he likes to learn and understand where people are coming from with their beliefs but he has always remained an agnostic. I think it is great you support your family. I don't think that attending the service with your family in any way deminishes your belief system. After all you can always actively support the things you beleive in by volunteering or donating. Just because you attend a church service that doesn't mean you have to actively support what they are preaching. Just because you go to a church service doesn't mean you have to show up to one of their protests at Planned Parenthood. In fact you could make a donation to Planned Parenthood to protest the church's protest.

[slackmaster]

137. Some people have boxed themselves into the notion that the RCC is a "hate group"

And that anyone who supports it is supporting hate-mongers who are on a par with the KKK and the Nazis.

(I don't see it that way BTW, just pointing out that there are some among us who do.)

[defendandprotect]

184. Fascism doesn't begin with the Nazis . . . which the Vatican, btw, supported . . .

Including Franco -- !!

It helps to know something of the history of your own church --

Like the Papal Bulls which pushed for the enslavement or death of the Native American

and the African enslaved here --

Like the Crusades and the Inquisition and the Hammer of Witches --

If these weren't evils, what is? That's why we call it the "Dark Ages" -- !!

[dugaresa]

34. and this surprises you? I was raised a Catholic and the anti-choice mantra is not going to change

and while I don't agree with it, it kind of makes sense that a religion would not condone abortion. I am not sure of any religion that condones abortion or even advocates it in any case.

The birth control issue is the only thing that doesn't make sense but then again if you want to have more followers you don't exactly want your parish cutting back on adding more members to fill the coffers.

Think of the religious societies of the 18th and 19th centuries that advocated abstinence, not many of them are around any more.

[Green_Lantern]

37. When couples get married in the Church..

They make a vow that they'll follow the guidelines on birth control. But when the priest at our church mentioned it it was almost like "wink wink...no one actually does this."

[Tailormyst]

39. The churches view on birth control are causing the deaths of millions in Africa.

[Green_Lantern]

44. US govt. policy does more in that realm..

Than any church.

[Tailormyst]

49. Actually the US Gov has tried to help stop aids in Africa.

it's the one rare good thing W did. The church warns that wearing condoms doesn't work and will sent the people to hell. The pope, in all his red Prada shoe glory, has massive blood on his hands.

[Green_Lantern]

56. Bush cut off funding..

For anything not involving abstinence.

[defendandprotect]

76. True . . . . but what influence has the Vatican had on those policies . . .???

not only re our own government/Bush -- but re the United Nations!!???

[dugaresa]

69. i remember when i went to marriage class before we got married in the church

and we all joked about the "birth control" class. the rhythm method was taught and we all said, "do you know what they call people who use this method? parents"

the kindly parish priest who married us was very rational and knew the difference between church doctrine and reality but not all are like that.

[defendandprotect]

120. Jewish faith supports abortion . . . as do many other faiths --

The Catholic Church on the other hand is anti-abortion and anti-birth control in their

own self-interest.

Considering the damage of overpopulation to the planet -- we might say their own

selfish interests?

And -- certainly they need the money for their pedophile lawsuits --

I understand the Catholic Church here is under investigation for having used funds given

to them for their "faith based" organizations to pay for pedophile lawsuits!

Heard that a few months ago -- !!

Certainly the Vatican is working in every way they can to regain control over women --

and reproduction.

HOWEVER, Catholics support abortion and birth control to an amazing degree!!

And Latino/Latina Catholics are even more supportive on these issues!!

JUST AS MANY CATHOLIC WOMEN AS ANY OTHER WOMEN HAVE ABORTIONS!!

***************************************************************



PS: Let's also keep in mind that a number of Popes who would have acknowledged members'

right to personal conscience in deciding whether or not to use artificial birth control --

as confirmed by Pope John XXIII in Vatican II -- were either coincidentally quickly dead

or knocked off.

[Tailormyst]

36. They stand a mile from my house every fucking day

And I flip them off, nuns and all, every damn day. I want more then anything to take a sledge hammer to their massive propaganda pictures of miscarried babies.

"pray for life" my ASS. They don't give a SHIT about life. If they did they would be working on poverty and education instead of trying to legislate away womens rights to make their own choices.

[Green_Lantern]

41. well my reaction isn't quite so violent

I'm just very uncomfortable with the issue and I have family members who participate in the Right to Life Marches, etc. The Catholic schools send kids to the marches and I have some young family members that went.

Thus I avoid the issue.

[Tailormyst]

47. I despise lies and propaganda 15 feet from a school bus stop every day

With Massive 12 x 10 pictures of bloody miscarried babies. Complements of the Boston Diocese.

[Green_Lantern]

52. call the city or police...

They aren't allowed that close to residential areas. Even here in Missouri they aren't.

[defendandprotect]

77. . . . but undeniably the "pro-life" movement has been violent - murderous . . . !!

Killing doctors is violence --

Bombing clinics and commiting other acts of terrorism is violence --

Certainly you've noticed this "pro-life" violence -- ???

[Green_Lantern]

82. of course...

But any political movement has their extremists. If they break the law they should be arrested.

[defendandprotect]

121. These would be "extremists" financed by the Church . . .

Certainly Randall Terry is making money --

and the most prominent of anti-abortion rhetoric comes from the Vatican/

Catholic Bishops. Any number of Catholics have been involved in these events --

either closely or indirectly. It is the Catholic Church which tells its members

that abortion is "murder" -- therefore "act like it!" --


Unfortunately, AFTER a clinic has suffered violence, or after a child has been

sexually abused, or after a doctor has been murdered by a "pro-life" fanatic --

the arrest supplies no remedy for those who have been harmed.

Nor does it necessary preclude any more violence since it is being encouraged by

those who teach male-supremacist theories.

[jtrockville]

40. So sad that they wouldn't try to provide assistance.

If they promoted health care and other assistance for financially strapped women, there would be far fewer abortions than if they try to block clinics.

[moc]

43. Wish you could have been at my Catholic mass on Sunday.

The focus of the priest's homily was on how we are called to live like Christ and serve the poor and the needy. How focusing on the surface aspects of our faith are a distraction from what made Christ the radical he was and how we are called to be radical too.

Yes, I love the social justice focus of my church community. That's why we drive further to attend mass there rather than the parishes closer to our house.

Sorry you had to deal with that. Having been in a similar anti-abortion obsessed parish prior to our current church, I understand fully how it can suck the faith out of you.

[Green_Lantern]

46. well our homily did mention..

How the Sermon on the Mount didn't promote dog eat dog capitalism. The RCC has its bad and good.

[moc]

53. Indeed. I'm sorry so many here have a knee-jerk reaction to any mention of the Catholic Church.

I'm not a big fan of our pope or the church hierarchy in general. However, those of us who are Catholic know well the strong tradition of social justice in the church. Those who think the entire Catholic church revolves around the anti-abortion movement and those right-wing conservative elements of the RCC ignore the rich diversity that is the modern Catholic church. Like you, I choose to focus on the good aspects, but the knee jerk negative reactions to the RCC around here get tiresome.

[AndrewP]

94. Well said.

[defendandprotect]

124. Evidently you don't know that one of the recent Popes BANNED Liberation Theology??

That the Vatican is anti-democracy and always has been?

And that that Pope also brought back Opus Dei -- banned by earlier Popes?

The "rich diversity" of the "modern Catholic Church" includes a right wing coup on

Vatican II and a long history of oppression of women and homosexuals!

Not to mention a long history of violence -- and "Introducing the sword with the cross."

Keep in mind that just as many Catholic women as any other women have abortions --

so it is clear that there is great support among members of the church for birth control,

personal conscience -- and abortion.

Clearly, the only way to defeat that support is to destroy women's clinics and their doctors.

What is tiresome is that so many supporters of male-supremacist religion don't seem to give

much thought to the Vatican agenda or what it is they are supporting with their money and

their time.

The priest-pedophile scandals woke up many Catholics -- but not enough.

[defendandprotect]

122. Unfortunately, one of the more recent Popes made a point of

publickly telling us that the "Elites are good guys!" --

Another of the more recent Popes -- one before this one -- appeared before a session

of the Italian government to demand that they make Italian women have more children!!

Was it for love of children? No, it was in looking out for the interests of future

economic expansion!!


This is a hierarchy of power which supports a vile agenda --

[JerseygirlCT]

62. That's closer to the sort of parish I was raised in

Made for a rough shock when I grew up and starting attending mass elsewhere... which moved me right to the Episcopal church!

[defendandprotect]

78. Great . . .

but how do you ignore that the Catholic Church is still a male-supremacist organization?

Or don't you care -- ?

How do you ignore that the Vatican still teaches intolerance and hatred for homosexuals?

Or don't you care -- ?

The Vatican continues to refuse to acknowledge the full personhood of females as it

acknowledges the full personhood of males --


And overall stands against democracy and the concept of "all created equal" --

Or don't you care -- ?

[Green_Lantern]

80. I care of course...

Hence the OP. But that's the Vatican, not my individual church. Do you not take part in a political system that refuses gay marriage? Did you support Obama?

[defendandprotect]

101. How would I possibly avoid my own government . . . which most of us are bashing

every day as fast as our fingers can move!

And that includes Obama and any corporatist/exploitive decision he's making -- anytime!

Your "individual church" is part of the Vatican --

And your attendance indicates support for their agenda --


And just how do you show that "you care" about their agenda?

Do you discuss these issues with leaders of the church?

Of the parish?

[Tsar_Bomba]

50. Fuck the Catholic Church

Why do you go. You know what they are about and they won't change so why keep trying? It's a dying institution anyway. Let it die and hopefully religion will die with it.

[Green_Lantern]

55. I am religiously tolerant...

I don't want religion to die, that's not a tolerant view in my opinion.

[defendandprotect]

79. There is a vast difference between organized patriarchal religion which

is male-supremacist and true spirituality which comes from within --

and does not require middlemen --

Which are you after?

[Toasterlad]

96. Please Explain In What Respect the Catholic Church Deserves Tolerance?

[Green_Lantern]

141. because people have every right

To be Catholic.

[Toasterlad]

146. But Not, According to the Catholic Church, To Marry or Have an Abortion

I'll start tolerating catholics when they start tolerating my rights.

[Green_Lantern]

152. how do you know which Catholics are not tolerating your...

Rights? Everyone has a right to their opinion according to the Bill of Rights.

[Tailormyst]

157. Tolerating? Tolerating?

At least now they don't burn us right? We should be fucking grateful they let us LIVE.

Well that says it all.

[Green_Lantern]

161. those were your words

"Tolerating your rights". I respect the rights of all people.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

178. Then presumably you should disrespect the history of the RCC . .. ???

[Green_Lantern]

182. by the way thanks...

I was confused about whether or not to stop going to church but after talking to you I've decided to stick with it. See when someone tells me not to do something then I find myself doing it out of spite.

Also, I'm choosing to trust in my own faith and not just be a cynic.

[defendandprotect]

183. We used to call that . . .

"cutting off your nose to spite your face" . . .

Anyone who supports democracy and equality for all would be misguided if not

disingenuouss in supporting the Vatican agenda --

if not puerile --

Let's see now, in the OP you were going to keep your family company --

now you're going because of your "trust in your own faith" . . .

seems to be a different story than originally heard.

Yes, I'm sure that everyone who opposes The Crusades/Inquisition and Papal infallibility and

a male-supremacist agenda is a "cynic" -- !!


:eyes:

Bye --

[Green_Lantern]

189. you've convinced me to go to my church..

And not let the political bs bother me, the problem is the people running it from above and not the entire faith.

The cynical thing would be leaving a faith just because some in it have a political agenda.

[defendandprotect]

194. The "political" effects your life every moment of your life . . .

The hierarchy directs the church and its teachings -- influences its members --

and seeks to influence our own government --

Remember the US Catholic Bishops recently trying to prevent birth control being paid

for by government health care -- or even private insurances companies which would be

paid for by citizens?

The US Catholic Bishops are influencing Congress to STOP a universal health care plan.

Meanwhile, a huge percentage -- 73%/83% if you include Latinos/Latinas -- of Catholics

support universal health care -- single payer - Medicare for all!!

That seems rather "cynical" of the Bishops -- !!

And, Catholics also support having birth control and abortion covered by a large majority

in any government or private health care plan!

[Green_Lantern]

196. well the solution to that is to not elect..

Politicians who'll be influenced by orthodox Catholic bishops. I'm not sure the politicians who vote against reproductive rights are doing that just because bishops say so or it's based on their own views.

[defendandprotect]

198. The "orthodoxy" -- the dictates -- begin at the TOP of the hierarchy - the Vatican . . .

US Catholic Bishops are simply carrying out the dirty work --

But -- great idea -- let's also use your "solution" and NOT elect politicians who are

influenced by the oil industry, nuke industry -- and let's rid all of Congress of Catholics!!

We can conclude that many Catholics entered politics to move the Democratic Party to the right.


And if the US Catholic Bishops push against MEDICARE FOR ALL, then I guess that's how it

will be?

[Green_Lantern]

202. you can't ban Catholics from running for office...

Let's put all Catholics in concentration camps :sarcasm:

Attacking Catholics sure stopped Guy Fawkes :sarcasm:

I know more right-wingers who aren't religious anyway.

[defendandprotect]

206. Wasn't your suggestion to NOT vote for those who support church teachings?

Wasn't that your "solution" . . . ??

If we don't want the nation governed by Church,

if we want to support Separation of Church & State --

then let's not vote for those who support the Vatican -- !!???

The right wing may claim to be "religious" but in reality what they live is

anti-spirituality -- anti-life-affirming convictions.

[Green_Lantern]

209. no I said don't vote for people who...

Want to restrict gay rights or reproductive rights. But they have the right to run for office.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alp227]

65. "a church should promote unity"? Yeah right

Listen to all the divisive stuff that Pat Robertson, Rick Warren, etc. have been saying. And then there's all this creationist/anti-science movement that's taken over religion and even public schools. I'm sure you can find another church that does promote unity (there's one with that word in the title, hint hint).

If religion never existed, I'd think that the people of the world would be so much more united and tolerant of each other.

[Green_Lantern]

67. I've never heard the priest at my church

Say anything divisive.

[Lance_Boyle]

75. Your RC church doesn't preach that nonbelievers go to Hell?

That bit seems rather divisive to me. Pretty straightforward "yer either with us or agin' us" kinda stuff...

But then "selective reason" is popular with the mentally-intact religious.

[Green_Lantern]

83. no...I've never heard...

A priest or nun say nonbelievers go to hell.

[CatholicEdHead]

103. In most Churches that is the case

but go online (e.g. Catholic Answers Forms) and you will find a growing movement about the Catholic Church being the only way to salvation becoming stronger bit by bit. :puke: :crazy:

[rug]

85. It doesn't.

[Toasterlad]

90. "I'm tired of that self righteous nuttiness."

If you were really tired of it, you'd stop going.

[Green_Lantern]

91. not really....

If I avoided self-righteousness I'd have to live on a deserted island.

[Toasterlad]

98. So You Have a Problem With the Church's Self-Righteousness, But You See It Everywhere

Why did you even bother to post? You are perfectly willing to rationalize your affiliation with this hate group. Why bother us with your pretend outrage over their policies, which clearly don't bother you enough to leave?

[riderinthestorm]

123. Sheesh, exactly. Why post an OP rant about the church and then post 100x saying it's all ok? nt

[Green_Lantern]

142. no I meant I see self righteousness

Everywhere, not just in the church.

[Toasterlad]

147. I Know What You Meant.

There is no point to your post. You're a catholic who pretends to be disgusted by the position of the catholic church, but you REMAIN a catholic.

You have zero credibility.

[Green_Lantern]

154. I'm not sure I'd be considered Catholic..

As I've said repeatedly, I attend with family.

[PassingFair]

165. Here's what I would do:

Nail 'em!!

[upi402]

99. yeah I try to report a story about the church and get reminded

that there is some good done by Jesuits and others. true, but the church meddles in government and law and needs it's tax exempt status revoked. and criminality must be pursued. religion gets favored even in immigration laws here, and it needs to stop.

[defendandprotect]

102. They announced an investigation into Catholic Church and possibility they used $$$ from

taxpayers given to them for "faith-based" organization to pay off their

pedophile lawsuits!!

Heard that a few months ago!

[begin_within]

126. God hates religion.

And I say that as a recovered Catholic myself.

[defendandprotect]

128. I bet she does -- !!!

[begin_within]

129. Reminds me of Helen Reddy's acceptance speech.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

191. What you need is a label maker.

Then, you could type in "I like to bitch" and stick it to your own forehead.

(Disclaimer: There are times when I need that label too...)

I'm having trouble understanding why you posted this. Were you spoiling for a fight, or do you just "like to bitch"? You throw down fire on the Catholic Church for what you consider to be "self-righteous nuttiness," and then when people start agreeing with you on just how nutty the Catholic Church really is, you spend post after post defending the Church to the hilt.

It doesn't make sense.

Oh, and for the record, if you're interested, there isn't a single regimented religion on earth that promotes unity. Every one of them espouses and exacerbates an "in-group/out-group" mentality that serves only to divide.

[ZombieHorde]

207. You went to a hate group meeting and was surprised by divisiveness and fueling animosity?

Is this a joke thread?

[Green_Lantern]

210. that's silly...

Hate group meeting implies the members are all hateful bigots. The church I go to has never even mentioned gay people.

[darkstar3]

211. Please...

That they hate while smiling and shaking hands makes them no different than when others hate while toting torches.

They hate women, and they hate gays, even if they refuse to talk about it. The Christian Church, Catholic or otherwise, has always been a bastion of misogyny, and this more than anything else is what homophobia is rooted in. You saw this, which is why you posted your OP rant to begin with, so don't try to turn it around now when the proper label is applied.

[Green_Lantern]

212. who is they?

I never said anything about hate, I said divisive. By the way I also think labeling people who disagree with you on social issues as "haters" is divisive.

I think calling every Catholic Church a hate group meeting is extremely divisive.

[darkstar3]

213. Well, I'm sorry Rodney,

but we really CAN'T all just get along. Diversity is the cornerstone of human existence.

You say that ZH's statement is divisive, and that my support of it is as well, and you say this as if it were a derogatory remark. However, I have no problem with the word divisive. It's a great adjective to use in this case, and I will look upon it with pride. It says that I wish to divide those who believe that women are property in at least some way from the rest of the population. So be it. Women are not property, and anyone who believes that they are is a hateful, misogynistic ass who doesn't deserve the time of day.

[Green_Lantern]

214. as I said calling it a hate group is disengenuous

Since that would mean everyone attending espouses hate. It's pretty ironic, intolerance of Catholics in the name of tolerance.

[ZombieHorde]

218. The Catholic Church is a hate group.

The leaders are clearly anti-gay and anti-women. The Catholic Church spends a portion of its money on suppressing the rights of gays and women. Anyone who gives the Catholic Church money is helping the Church to spread their message of hate.

Since that would mean everyone attending espouses hate.

If they give money to the Catholic Church they are espousing hate.

[darkstar3]

219. Ding Ding Ding!

Well said.