Why do Christians get away with murder?

[LAGC]

I was just talking to a friend of mine who volunteers for a legal internship with the ACLU, and as part of her job she goes inside prisons and interviews prisoners. One colorful inmate she just interviewed recently is serving a Life sentence for murdering a state cop. Now, the discussion was supposed to be about prison conditions and how inmates are being treated in there, but during his interview this particular inmate confided in my friend that "I'm not worried about what happens in here, because I've been saved, I'm going to heaven after this life is over."

Now, I can understand how those who have nothing left to look forward to in life would want there to be something better afterwards... but the thing that struck her was that this inmate almost seemed to express glee that he had "gotten away with it", gotten away with murder. After all, all you have to do according to Christian theology is commit a heinous crime then simply ask Jesus for forgiveness, accept him into your heart, "become saved", and then suddenly no matter what you've done, you've just gotten away with (in this case) murder!

How is that fair, that someone who lives their life doing good and never harming another individual goes to hell, yet someone who murders, rapes, child molests, etc. gets to go to heaven simply because he mumbles a few words under his breath to a make-believe deity after the fact? Some religions I will never understand...

[stopschoolpaddling]

1. You got me, I've never been able to figure that one out either.

[stray cat]

2. If you don't believe in heaven then you don't believe they do

[damntexdem]

15. I know there ain't no heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell.

But I'll never know by livin'; only my dyin' will tell.

- Blood, Sweat, and Tears (at least they covered it, if not wrote it)

[Raspberry]

3. Well, considering he's sitting in prison--

--means he DIDN'T get away with murder. He is serving human justice. Divine justice is something totally different, and I don't think we're necessarily supposed to understand it, or think it's fair (in human terms.)

[timeforpeace]

14. No shit. Thanks for injecting some rationality into this.

[damntexdem]

16. Why shouldn't we be able to understand it?

Why do we have brains otherwise?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. "Divine justice is something totally different" - yup, that is correct. It is.

It's the fabrication of psychopaths. At least, the fundagelical heaven-and-hell flavor, which is what's in discussion here, is. There's as many "divine justices" as there are religious denominations. Some are even quite merciful and reasonable, like many which are based on reincarnation. Doesn't make them any more true, though.

Whereas human justice, in the more civilized countries, is a flawed but honest attempt at establishing a saner, happier society.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DesertFlower]

5. i think that's what draws so many to

"born again" movement.

i met a woman years ago who had been a catholic. she got divorced and re-married. she left the catholic church and became a born again so she could be "saved".

[rd_kent]

6. Becasue its all a bunch of made up, hypocritical BS!

That guy is not going to heaven because there IS NO HEAVEN.

[blueworld]

7. Forgive me for being simplistic, but it isn't fair & it's rather delusional

Most Christians, I think, believe in "faith and works", not simply faith and "whatever I do I'm off the hook". At least that's my spiritual belief. I also think it's really unfair to lump all Christians in with that bunch. But, whatever, I certainly understand your position & agree with it.

[rd_kent]

9. This is not a dig on YOU, personally....

But until christians like yourself and others that describe themselves like you do, STAND UP AND GET VOCAL about crap like this, you will continue to be "lumped in" with all christians. Silence is the same as approval.

[blueworld]

11. I understand that & thank you for your kind words

But your question seemed to ask why "Christians" get away with murder. Apparently you & I believe the same - they don't, no matter what the fundie preachers may say. IMHO, all of us who consider ourselves "Christian" are not in the same league.

And for myself, I do get tired of "Christians" being lambasted for the stupid crap that other "Christians" spend TV time blathering about. We're not all the same. "They" get their jollies waving around a cross & beating others over the head with it. I figure the idea is for me to pick the thing up & carry it on my own back. That's my point.

I pray for those who think they can murder, confess & "get to heaven" (whatever the hell that means, pun intended).

[Goblinmonger]

29. So most Christians are Catholics?

I don't get that impression especially from people on here. The "faith and works" concept is one that has heaped a lot of grief on the Catholics from the Protestant religions which primarily base salvation on faith alone. I agree that Catholic may be the single largest sect in the US but I don't think it would be bigger than the Protestant sects put together.

[rug]

35. It's pretty close.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#largest

RCC: 69,000,000
Nexr 24 denominations combined: 80,000,000

[Goblinmonger]

37. Closer than I thought it would be

but the theological point is still made. Most Christian denominations in the US do not believe in "faith and works" nor do the majority of Christians (unless they are self-identifying with a sect that doesn't represent their beliefs but I'm just going with the numbers as they stand).

[billymike]

8. words

Many evangelical revisions of the Bible--which itself has been revised so often to meet political/governmental specifications--have changed "kill" in the ten commandments to "murder," "thou shalt not murder", which allows for "killing" the enemy du jour. They parse words, every one of them, it's a deflection tactic, justifying the absolute break from the core of Jesus' worldview, war is truly and explicitly the opposite pole. Sorta anti-Christ, if you ask me.

[Ozymanithrax]

10. Because they are forgiven...

The rule, as I was told in my Oklahoma childhood, is that if you ask God to forgive and give your life to Christ, everything is forgiven and you get a free ticket to heaven. It doesn't matter what your did.

Now, you can even do this at the very last second of your life, so this is a possibility. Adolph Hitler puts a bullet in his brain, but his aim is lousy and he can live whole minutes. So in his pain and terror in those last seconds of life the thinks, "Jesus Forgive me" and good old Adolph has a seat next to God, above the Salt, where he can sing Seig Heil Jesus for all of eternity. Forgiveness is absolute and complete. The 20+ million people he sent to hell have no say in the matter.

The people a murderer sins against, don't matter, especially if he killed them quick and the died out of grace. A person who lives his entire life for others, sacrifices everything he has for other people, lives as perfect a life as possible, has one harmless fantasy about seeing his neighbors wife naked, but doesn't ask for forgiveness from God will roast in the fire next to Satan. Hell, a person coud live without a single sin, but because of original sin, that person will go to hell. People are born with sin and babies that die without forgivness go to hell.

Of course, I'm not a Christian...I don't think highly of certain aspects of doctrine.

[Laura902]

12. If that person shows no remorse

then they would not be forgiven if there was an omnipotent god

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. And that is the correct theological position

True remorse and repentance are necessary conditions for forgiveness.

When I was growing up, one of our neighbor kids got the idea that it was OK to hit someone if you said "I'm sorry" immediately afterward.

The fundies' approach is like that neighbor kid's.

True story. About thirty years ago, there was a case in which a Yale student murdered his girlfriend in a jealous rage. He ran away from the scene and went to a Catholic church, where he confessed to the priest and begged for absolution. The priest told him, "I can't absolve you unless you're willing to take the consequences of your act. I'll go to the police with you if you're afraid, but you must turn yourself in."

Again, the priest was stating the standard Christian theological position.

[Ozymanithrax]

23. Remorse is easy when you are in incredible pain and dying...

Fear of death, of the great unknown has created a lot of death bed confessions. At that moment, I am sure that most of them are sincere. Now, if a death bed miracle happens and they go back to old ways, well, that is the breaks.

[damntexdem]

13. When I was growing up Catholic, they talked about purgatory.

I don't know whether they still do. In any case, purgatory is where most 'saved' people would go to get temporary punishment for their sins that had been forgiven. Later, they would be released to heaven. At least that preserved the idea that there would be punishment for those who had done bad and then repented. Of course, there were also ways to avoid some or all such punishment: basically things that increased the income of the Church, such as paying for Masses for specific dead, buying indulgences, and so on. But at least to escape some or all punishment, one had to be rich in addition to repentant (and, of course, usually Catholic). ;-)

And in most cases, to repent, one had to confess to a priest -- so, again, the Church had a near stranglehold on repentance. Most forms of Protestantism, while getting rid of the corruption encouraged by the Church's near-monopoly on repentance and indulgence, also did away with much of the teaching that bad deeds were still punished to some degree even after repentance.

Now, as an agnostic, I am a Unitarian-Universalist, one strain of which, the Universalists, got their name from a belief in universal salvation. But even they had a disagreement -- over whether everyone went to heaven immediately upon death or whether there was a purgatoryish period of punishment for really bad behavior. The overarching, uniting belief of the Universalists was that no one could be so bad that they deserved being punished eternally; but that still left the floor open to debate on whether there was some balance introduced by having a variable period of punishment after death.

I say that if there is a God and/or an afterlife, there needs to be some balance, so some consequences for acting badly while alive. But on the other hand, I'm glad I'm not called on to sort it all out. ;-)

[msongs]

17. nobody would believe that religion if it didn't approve the most vile behavior lol nt

[On the Road]

18. Unlike Some Other Christian Beliefs,

this one goes right back to Jesus himself.

Favoring the less deserving over those usually considered better people is a big, big theme in the parables. The prodigal son is the most famous example, but there are parables of the banquet guests, the day laborers, and others. Paul took the prinicple even further in promoting faith over good works.

The murderer in the original article is completely within the Christian tradition to take the attitudes he does.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Not unless he's truly repentant

as the Prodigal Son was. Remember, he is all ready to apologize for his behavior and tell his father that he is no longer worthy to be considered a son but to be treated as a hired servant.

In the parable of the banquet, the people who end up being invited are not evil, just despised by society, and the day laborers in the parable of the vineyard are not evil, either, just late to be hired.

[Igel]

32. The prodigal son isn't favoring the less deserving.

He asked for his inheritance early, got his inheritance and spent it. *Then* he was destitute, went back and asked forgiveness. He wasn't honored because he was poor. He was honored because (1) he showed a great deal of remorse and humility, in modern terms he was "rehabilitated" in some sense, and (2) his father loved him and rejoiced at his rehabilitation.

The second son pointed out that this was not just: law and custom stipulated matters of inheritance, the prodigal son had rejected and dishonored his father and family. Still, the father said he was happy that his lost son had returned and said that the other son should be happy, as well. I don't recall that the inheritance was redivided. In fact, it seems to say the opposite: the prodigal son may be the guest of honor, and still a son, but he was going to be a poor son because everything that was the father's was the obedient son's.

Raskol'nikov liked to say that poverty isn't a vice--a common saying at the time among liberals there. On the other hand, the mere fact of poverty isn't a virtue. Poverty may dispose to virtue, but isn't one, per se.

[On the Road]

36. Thank You for the Clarification

I had not thought about the fact that the prodigal son continued to be poor. I do think that repentence by the undeserving is very much part of the parable. It wasn't simply that he wasted money, but by doing so he became an outcast in the eyes of his family.

But more importantly, I think I misunderstood the original poster's concern, which was more about serious, universally condemned crimes like murder. You can point to stories about forgiveness from gouging the poor (Zacheus) or adultery (as in 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'), but I don't they are what the OP had in mind. Pehaps the closest would be the thief on the cross: "⁴³...today you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23

Jesus did preach repentence, and even warned supposedly good people: "⁴Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? ⁵I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Luke 13

[Patchuli]

21. Saying that is the same as if I said

all non-Christians are going to burn in hell. That's as wrong-headed as if I asked YOU how you'd like your eternity, smoking or non-smoking?

I am so tired of the Christian-bashing. The person you spoke of was "gleeful" about "getting away" with murdering someone and being "saved" because he asked for forgiveness.

Clue: God isn't stupid. If someone is happy they got to murder someone and think they've gotten off the hook for the crime, they have obviously not repented their evil deed. Repentance is actually required for forgiveness. That shows a basic ignorance of what you bash and it's a stupid argument. You know nothing of Christian theology.

[LAGC]

31. Yet someone could "seriously" repent, and all would be alright?

You don't think it still leads to people justifying crimes, knowing that if they truly repent afterwards, I mean if they truly regret what they've done, they will be forgiven? Or is just the fact that they justified it to begin with make it impossible for someone to be forgiven in your eye?

[Patchuli]

40. God knows

if a person's full of crap or not. That said, I'm truly tired of being lumped in with nutcases and whackjobs because I am a believer. If there was this much $hit slung about other faiths, there'd be hell to pay. I'm sick of ignorant judgment.

[darkstar3]

42. When you stand next to a lightning rod voluntarily,

you have no right to bitch when you get electrocuted.

Pat Robertson is a lightning rod. So is Fred Phelps. So is James Dobson, and the list goes on and on and ON. You voluntarily chose to stand next to them. If you wish to stop being electrocuted by the lightning strikes they attract, then step away.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

44. Catch that knee...

You know what I say is true. How you voluntarily label yourself makes a difference in how people see you. If you choose the exact same label as people who purposely draw fire down on themselves, you can't expect not to get a little fire of your own.

To put it another way, when you stand too close to people like Robertson and the others, it's really hard not to paint you all with the same brush, no matter how broad or narrow it is.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas...
Thou shalt not be unequally yoked...
If thy hand offend thee, then cut it off...
I've got more. :)

[Patchuli]

45. What you said is stupid, judgmental

and wrong-headed. I'm not "labeling" myself; I AM a believing Christian. You have a problem with that - tough crap...we live in America. At least for the moment, I have religious freedom.

I will pray for you and your lack of understanding of Christianity. I repeat, I stand with God.

[darkstar3]

46. And how have I judged you?

I'm simply warning you that standing too close to fire gets you burned. I haven't called you a name or done anything else that would constitute judgment. (Well, not yet, anyway...) You were complaining about being "lumped in" with people you don't like, and I was trying to shed some light on the reasons why that might happen.

And now, while attempting to defend yourself, you have posted something that would not seem at all out of place on a rather...different...website. Allow me to retort, point by point:

I'm not "labeling" myself; I AM a believing Christian.
A more contradictory statement cannot be found on this thread, or perhaps even on this board. What comes before the semicolon is entirely negated by what comes after. You have chosen the label of "Christian".

You have a problem with that - tough crap
Again, I never said I did. I simply wish for you to understand why you get "lumped in" with the people you don't like. But don't let my attempt at reason get in the way of your persecution complex.

we live in America. At least for the moment, I have religious freedom.
Has anyone here even REMOTELY attacked your religious freedom? Contrary to what you might feel, my friend, you are NOT Daniel and this is NOT the lion's den.

I will pray for you and your lack of understanding of Christianity.
Statements like this are not helping my "lack of understanding", nor do they come across as anything but a condescending Christian version of "fuck off."

I repeat, I stand with God.
And as long as you continue to call yourself a "Christian", which is exactly the same thing that all of those nasty posers you don't like call themselves, you're gonna have trouble making people believe you don't stand with them.

[Patchuli]

47. OK, point by point for yourself

You do worse than "judge."

You insult by telling me because I am a follower of Christ Jesus that I "stand beside" a hateful POS like Phelps. I don't have to "defend" myself from you. My grammar holds no 'hidden' meanings, no matter how much you try to manipulate it. I am tired of the Christian-bashing. That's not a "persecution complex." That's a fact that it's gotten out of hand on DU. I will pray for you because you need grace. Take that anyway you like. Lastly, anyone who cannot tell the difference between followers of Christ who preach hatred and the rest of us who follow Him, demonstrate the 'dumbing down' of America.

[darkstar3]

48. .

Since your post is nothing but a long-winded insult and gripefest that will most likely be deleted, I feel comfortable in saying the following:

Grow up. You sound like a petulant child reacting violently to a simple answer that you asked for but didn't like.

[Patchuli]

49. Only a petulant child would keep throwing

the slams like you do towards a person who disagrees. Grow up yourself, darkstar. Does your handle have anything to do with the Dead? If so, you might learn to be less judgmental and a little more kind. You are a bit full o' yourself.

[darkstar3]

51. Aside from #48,

there is nowhere in this subthread where I have "slammed" you. You cannot say the same, so I wonder about the height of your horse.

My handle has nothing to do with the Dead. Frankly, it took me a little while to realize what you even meant by that. And as for being judgmental and "full of self", you should read my posts here again: I simply gave you an explanation, not an accusation. It is clear that this is quite a raw subject for you, and that you most certainly do feel persecuted even though you happen to enjoy the cemented majority status in this country.

As for me calling you a petulant child, well, what can you expect? Throwing a temper tantrum when someone calmly explains to you why certain unpleasant occurrences in this world take place is exactly the action of a spoiled 4-year-old.

[Patchuli]

54. Once again,

whatever. You made up your mind not to have an intelligent debate from the very beginning.

[Patchuli]

50. By the way,

how do you consider me to be "long-winded" after your "point by point" post? I was only answering what you said. As for my post being "deleted" exactly what the heck did I do to you to have a post deleted? Disagree with you?

pfffftttttttttttt!

[darkstar3]

52. To answer:

Your insult, not your post, was long winded. You went a very long way out of your way to try and call me and other DUers stupid with your "dumbing down of America" remark.

The insulting nature of your post, BTW, is why I suspected that it would be deleted. I couldn't give a tiny flying rodent's posterior whether you agree with me.

[Patchuli]

53. Oh whatever.

Peace.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

22. There's a reason why our secular justice system does not work that way.

That's because it's totally unfair. What's interesting here is that God gets away with all sorts of stuff that would never fly if a mortal did it, and this belief system is a perfect example of that. If our secular justice system worked that way, people would object, as you object to this supposed system in Heaven. The same thing goes for things like divine healing. Some people are perfectly happy to defend God's apparent lack of interest in healing amputees. But if you had the ability to instantaneously completely heal all amputees in the world, but you refused saying you had some great and wise plan that that would ruin, that wouldn't fly. Despite God's supposed greatness and goodness and power, believers generally tend to have much lower standards than they would have for mere mortals.

[troubledamerican]

24. True story -- the Christian-ists made a pact with Lucifer.

R-o-n-a-l-d

W-i-l-s-o-n

R-e-a-g-a-n

6, 6, 6

[stopschoolpaddling]

25. I wonder how many crimes have been committed because the person doing them thinks

they can get off the hook later by simply asking God for forgiveness. Maybe some of those people would have thought again about going through with it, if they didn't have this belief.

[Prophet 451]

27. Doesn't work like that

With the exception of organised crime, criminals generally don't consider punishments until after they've committed a crime.

[Prophet 451]

26. Depends on the variety of Christianity

Now, full disclosure, I'm not Xian (I'm actually a Satanist) but from what I can understand by both observation and study, there seem to be several distinct schools of thought with Christianity about this. The mainstream interpretation is that it's not enough to just say the words and proclaim yourself "saved", you must genuinely repent of your sins and express remorse (think of Red's final parole hearing in The Shawshank Redemption). Then there's the camp who believe men are "saved" by faith alone i.e. that saying the words are enough. These tend to come into the "once saved, always saved" view, that no matter what you do before or after, you're forgiven. Often (from observation), this is used as an excuse for being a fairly unpleasent human being. Being "born-again" is something parole boards sometimes look favourably upon and many criminals have caught on to that and so, will claim faith they really don't have in an attempt to get early parole (most parole boards are also aware of this trick now).

Finally, this person is already subject to temporal justice. He has been caught, tried and imprisoned for his crimes. Spiritual justice is a different matter entirely. If it seems unfair that he passes the pearly gates while, say, Mahatma Gandhi doesn't; well, yeah, it is unfair but, short of booting god off his throne (one of the aims of my own faith), there's not much that can be done about it.

[Igel]

33. The timeline is also important.

In some cases you can't distinguish between the different groups you've outlined because if the crime occurs before conversion it's forgiven in either case. By god, at least, whatever the courts say.

Oddly, Xians and non have about the same views, just slightly different definitions. Both think rehabilitation and paying for your crimes is the right thing to do. For many non-Xians, paying = punishment and rehabilitation involves good works (at at least showing the right attitude); for many Xians, paying = Christ's crucifixion and accepting Jesus' blood and rehabilitation = at least showing the right attitude.

[Festivito]

28. Hit and run post?

Turn sorrow and responsibility into getting away with something. Then, let others waste their time while real stories go unread and uncommented.

[LAGC]

30. Nope, I'm still here.

I just had to go to work after I posted the OP.

Its interesting you see it as "sorrow and responsibility" -- the way she described it, it was like he was just being manipulative and deceitful, but then, maybe God knows the difference?

[Festivito]

34. That's part of it. Love and justice are oft unfathomable, e.g. unfair.

ANALOGY: If there is a rule, a dress code, for entering the big wedding and one person always dresses badly and finally dresses according to the rules and gets in while another person always dresses nicely but not in full compliance with the rules set for the big wedding and does not get in, is that fair or unfair? I suppose you can argue with the bride, groom and family that set and enforce these rules, but it's their wedding.

To play with the analogy a bit further: Suppose he follows the rules of dress to the letter, but still fails to bathe, a part of the rules, and disguises his smell with cologne. I'd suggest that that would be transparent to the hosts and he would not get into the wedding despite the assurances of his well-meaning cologne suppliers and tailors that convinces him he would. Or, as you put it, maybe God knows the difference.

I wonder what you prefer in the case of the prisoner. I hope that you don't hope for misery until death. He should express sorrow, or I doubt he transformed (take as bathed). He is still, responsibly, in prison. Should he be paroled or released, would he live a life of mayhem? Or, might he truly be transformed and live a productive remainder of life. This is where we play God, never to achieve the same perfection I guess, smelling through that cheap cologne.

What makes us try is realizing that we all fall short, some less egregiously than others, but falling short of perfect just the same. Is inciting by headline just less of a crime?

[Jim__]

38. "... because he mumbles a few words under his breath to a make-believe deity after the fact..."

Based on your claim that the deity is make-believe, he is not really going to heaven. He is in prison for the rest of his life. How did he get away with anything?

[Common Sense Party]

39. They don't. SOME Christians--particularly some evangelicals--may espouse

the beliefs you rightly criticize. But these supposed "sola scriptura" Christians are ignoring certain key parts of the Bible they like to thump.

God renders to every man according to his works. (Psalm 62:12)

Even Paul suggested that God will "reward" us according to our works. (2 Tim. 4:14)

Paul also slammed those who SAY they know God and are Christians, but who don't walk the walk. (Titus 1:16)

God will give to every one according to their works. (Rev. 2:23)

Jesus taught that even the words we say can condemn us. (Matt. 12:37)

People that murder will "not inherit the kingdom of God" (Glatians 5:21)--nor will drunks or people who envy.

It is simply not scriptural for these easy-forgiveness Christians to say that repentance and a changed heart is not essential to obtaining Christ's forgiveness. Yes, He died for our sins, but we must do our part as well.

[TreasonousBastard]

41. You've already gotten a few good answers about how...

it's not so easy to scam God about whether or not you're truly repentant. Fairness in our terms has little to do with it, since we're talking about divine justice, not human justice. The concept should be simple, even if you don't believe in a god-- you wouldn't expect a baboon, bluebird, or the residents of Altima Prime to eat, speak, act or believe the same as we humans do, would you?

But, there's another small point here-- does your friend really know what the inmate was saying? She seems to think that this guy thinks he pulled a trick, but it is entirely possible that he had a genuine spiritual revelation in prison. It's been known to happen.

(It's also been known to happen that prisoners with an IQ around room temperature would think they got a really good deal from the prison chaplain-- the fun is in trying to figure out which is which.)

[Kaleva]

55. How did the inmate get away with murder if he's in prison for life?