Nigerian Children Deemed Witches Tortured

[jemelanson]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/17/world/main5392572.shtml

(AP) The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.

His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him - Mount Zion Lighthouse.

A month later, he died.

Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."


Some wonder if this type of behavior will occur here if the fundies have their way. You know the ones who take literally the Bible. This is the danger when conservative fundamentalist run amok.
There is a Dark Side to the entire history of Christianity.

How does it ever get stopped? Who can bring these persons into reality? Who is going to protect the children?

[Taverner]

1. DU Christians - take a look at this child's face

Take a deep look. That is Christianity. YOUR people did this. YOUR belief system not only permitted this, it promoted it.

Sure, do all the philosophical gymnastics you have to do to have your Savior and eat him too, but you know I'm right...

[FiveGoodMen]

2. +about a million

[DeSwiss]

3. +1

[jemelanson]

4. From time to time we hear Christians claim that they are being

persecuted, unless all of those folks stand up and defend these children, then they forfeit any claim they have to being persecuted in my book. Those who attend any Church which professes to be Christian, they need to bring this story to their ministers and their church leaders. This needs to be talked about, it needs to be discussed and the people who to profess to be Christian need to stand up to those who claim to be Christian and do Something to protect these children who are being tortured and killed in the name of Christianity. Many of the main stream Christian Churches support missionary work in Africa. There needs pressure brought on the government in Nigeria, and through the missionaries in the field to put a stop to these practices.

This is a stain on every person who professes to be a Christian. How you deal with this speaks to your beliefs and your character. Remember the WW JD bumper stickers. It is time to ask yourself What would Jesus do to those who commit these crimes against children, and to those who stand aside and allow them to commit those crimes and do nothing to stop them?

I will stop my rant for now. Think on these things.

MSNBC has picked up the story now. I hope it gets lots of coverage.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33356826/ns/world_news-africa//

African churches denounce children as ‘witches’
Pastors accuse thousands of children, leading to torture or death

The following is a quote from one of the children:

"Please stop the pastors who hurt us," said Jerry quietly, touching the scars on his face. "I believe in God and God knows I am not a witch."

[kwassa]

8. what do you really know about the Nigerian religious divide?

and what little do you know about Christianity?

Everyone has the same responsibility to denounce inhumanity, by the way, and Christians have no more responsibility than anyone else. Nigeria has a raft of problems, including a totally corrupt government, a country split in very divisive half between Christians and Muslims, some very active terrorists, and about 133 million mostly very poor people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/30/nigeria-christians-muslims-fighting

More than 200 people have been killed in two days of clashes between Christians and Muslims in central Nigeria, the Red Cross said yesterday, during the worst unrest in the country for years.

The army sent reinforcements to enforce a 24-hour curfew in the city of Jos, which lies at the flashpoint where Nigeria's Muslim north and Christian south meet, after rival gangs set fire to churches and mosques.

'I counted 218 dead bodies at Masalaci Jummaa . There are many other bodies in the streets,' said a Red Cross official, who asked not to be named. That death toll did not include hospital mortuaries, victims already buried, or those taken to other places of worship. The final count could be much higher, officials said.

About 7,000 people had fled their homes and were sheltering in government buildings and religious centres, the Red Cross said.

The governor of Plateau state, of which Jos is the capital, said in a statement that troops had orders to shoot on sight to enforce the curfew in neighbourhoods hit by the violence. Gunfire and explosions heard in the early hours of Saturday later died down, but many streets remained deserted. Military checkpoints were set up around the city and soldiers helped to clear bodies from the streets.

[jemelanson]

10. Why do you try to change to subject?

"It is an outrage what they are allowing to take place in the name of Christianity," said Gary Foxcroft, head of nonprofit Stepping Stones Nigeria.

That is from the LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-af-nigeria-child-witches,0,5276725.story


The devil's children are "identified" by powerful religious leaders at extremist churches where Christianity and traditional beliefs have combined to produce a deep-rooted belief in, and fear of, witchcraft. The priests spread the message that child-witches bring destruction, disease and death to their families. And they say that, once possessed, children can cast spells and contaminate others.


Another article on the same topic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/3407882/Child-witches-of-Nigeria-seek-refuge.html

Evangelical pastors are helping to create a terrible new campaign of violence against young Nigerians. Children and babies branded as evil are being abused, abandoned and even murdered while the preachers make money out of the fear of their parents and their communities


Another article from the same source as you posted from.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver

In reading these articles and many more like them I saw little reference to the clashes between Christians and Muslims.

This is about people torturing and killing children in the name of Christianity.

I am probably as well versed in the Christian religion as anyone else. When someone who professes to be a Christian behaves in a manner which stains the religion is behooves the others who profess to be Christians to stand up and defend those who are helpless to defend themselves. That does not excuse the rest of the world for turning a deaf ear to the problem either.

There are many more stories and even some youtube videos. All available by a google search for Nigerian children witches. About 528,000 of them.

[hokies]

54. But the sky God COMMANDS people to kill witches

Christianity is the direct root cause of the acid being poured down that boy's throat. After all, those people are only following what the Bible says in hopes of avoiding eternal torture with fire. By the way, which is moral, torture with fire for eternity or torture with water 183 times? Also, is Jay Bybee an angel of God? :rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

90. Yes

we all have that responsibility to denounce and do something about this travesty. As human beings, it is our imperative. You have the same responsibility that I have.

[struggle4progress]

5. In decades of church-going, I've never heard a sermon about witchcraft; I've never heard

a pastor or congregants discuss witchcraft as a real issue. I've certainly never heard anyone suggest pouring acid down children's throats or anything like that

[jemelanson]

6. So are you saying that because it did not happen at you local

Church, that it is not happening now to children in Nigeria? Or are you saying that because it has not be discussed where you are that you do not believe that it is happening? Is that what you are saying? If I am not understanding you correctly, then pray, please enlighten me.

[struggle4progress]

14. I will go through this very slowly, using smalls words. I replied to: "That is Christianity ...

YOUR belief system .. promoted it." In fact, MY belief system had nothing to do with promoting this. On the other hand, the consumption behavior of Americans might bear substantial responsibility for some of these social problems

In Nigeria, these stories are primarily centered in a few states. Let us consider, for concreteness, the case of Akwa Ibom. It is in the oil-producing Niger delta, from which about $600 billion worth of oil has been extracted. The social and environmental costs of this extraction has been enormous: the original population depended on the land for its sustenance, but the legacy of oil extraction has been one of pollution, loss of farmland through urbanization, and population displacement. Lake Adiwaba, for example, which was an important fishing site, is dead. Akwa Ibom Airport, just commissioned, is currently in the news there because the people, from whom the land was taken for the airport, were never compensated. The effects of the unequal development in Akwa Ibom can be summarized in a single grim statistic: over half of the population is completely impoverished. Now, poverty ultimately manifests itself as a lack of necessities like food and shelter, but it represents much more than those immediate problems: it is lack of access to political institutions and justice; it is lack of access to education; it is lack of access to healthy care; in short, it is utter powerlessness. This powerlessness/poverty brings with it a host of ills: disintegration of family structures, substance abuse, mental illness, crime ... Worldwide, violence preferentially afflicts the impoverished. In the context of this devastatingly unequal development, there has been concerted media activity (such as the movies of Helen Ukpabio) pushing the idea: Your problem is WITCHCRAFT; in a further curious turn, modern media technology (having been used locally to promote the idea that witchcraft is the problem) is then used globally to promote the idea that Africans are ignorant savages who believe in witchcraft. So locally the media technology functions to keep people ignorant -- and globally it functions to dismiss them for their ignorance

Child abuse, of course, is a serious matter; it occurs around the world; and children are at heightened risk under impoverished conditions. Abusers give all manner of excuses for the abuse, none of which are convincing; psychological problems of the abuser are often contributory. I will whole-heartedly subscribe to the view that one has a moral obligation not only to intervene to prevent such abuse, but even to prevent the circumstances likely to lead to it. On the other hand, idiotic fuzzy thinking about the causes of the bad behavior won't help

[jemelanson]

16. You may consider the torture and murder of children in the name

of Christianity a "social problem", that is like saying that the 300 year war also known as the Inquisition where untold thousands of women were tortured and burn alive as a "social problem". I do not see this as a social problem. Nor do I see it as part of the conflict between the Muslims and Christians in Nigeria. You may need to look at it as a "social problem" if that is what you need to do. Just because it is ugly and it is going on now, does not make it less horrible. You may bury your head in the sand if that is how you make it through your day. I apologize for not realizing which post that you were replying to. I have no problem understanding or comprehending the English language. So there is no need to use small words.

[struggle4progress]

17. Anyone interested, in what I actually said, can read what I wrote. Perhaps simpler grammar would

have helped you comprehend my comments -- though it seems unlikely, given your response

It would, I suppose, be interesting if you could actually establish any connection between events in Nigeria and any of the various phenomena in Europe discussed under the general title "Inquisition" -- but, of course, you cannot, because there is no connection. The Catholic Church is not preaching the existence of witchcraft in Nigeria: the so-called "churches" behind this are independent organizations with self-proclaimed leaders, and these abuses represent an exploitation of desperate and ignorant people. It is worthwhile inquiring into the conditions that create and maintain such desperation and ignorance in the Niger Delta, and I provided some indications in my prior post

[jemelanson]

21. Seems you have a problem with reading comprehension also

What I said was that calling this a social problem was like calling the Inquisition a social problem. I did not try to establish any connections except that calling one a, to quote you, social problem was like calling the other a social problem. In your opinion was the genocide in Da fur a social problem also? Was the Holocaust a social problem?

"You may consider the torture and murder of children in the name of Christianity a "social problem", that is like saying that the 300 year war also known as the Inquisition where untold thousands of women were tortured and burn alive as a "social problem". "

[hokies]

53. Well, a commandment to kill witches is in the Bible

Perhaps you weren't paying attention we reading Exodus. Also, you've never heard of exorcisms?

[Sal316]

25. So, DU Christians are responsible?

I suppose you also think that all Muslims are terrorists. I mean, you're making no distinction here...so why would you any place else.

It's outrageous, and you're right to be outraged and pissed and whatever.

But saying "That is Christianity. YOUR people did this. YOUR belief system not only permitted this, it promoted it.", quite honestly only makes you an asshole.

[Meshuga]

47. Thanks for the warning!

I knew I should fear DU Christians and watch out for their acid throwing in the name of their religion. I better watch my back because there are a lot of them dangerous Christians around here. (Now, do I really need a sarcasm smilie here?)

[Dorian Gray]

89. Sorry....

but this is total bullshit, Taverner. OUR people didn't do this. That is offensive and horrible to accuse fellow DUers of being responsible for this outrage.

What these churches did to these children is abominable. Nobody here is responsible for this abomination. Everyone here will denounce their actions.

[Chulanowa]

148. I see more people denouncing these people's ties to Christianity than denouncing their actions

"Oh, this isn't my church!"
"These people aren't really following Christ"
"They would do it anyway!"
"Look at the Muslims! Look at the scary muslims!"

After all, to condemn these people's actions and beliefs, is to condemn the source that provided them - The Holy Bible. And a Christian can't do that, since their faith depends on that book, and calling it out challenges their own faith. So, what you see in threads like this are a cavalcade of Christians who are upset that these people got caught and embarrassed the religion, rather than being upset that someone tried to saw off the top of a little girl's head to get Satan out.

no, our fellow DU'ers didn't pour acid down anyone's throat. People who share their moral framework and view of the universe did, however, and it seems many DU'ers are more interested in rushing to the defense of that omnipotent monkey in the sky.

[Odin2005]

7. Religion. Is. Evil.

Poor boy! :cry:

Africa is descending into a Dark Age. :(

[Sal316]

26. How. Knee. Jerk. eom

[kwassa]

9. Here is more background on Nigeria's religious conflicts.

from The Atlantic Monthly, March 2008

"God's Country" by Eliza Griswold

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/nigeria

Nigeria is Africa’s most populous country, with 140 million people (one-seventh of all Africans), and it’s one of the few nations divided almost evenly between Christians and Muslims. Blessed with the world’s 10th-largest oil reserves, it is also one of the continent’s richest and most influential powers—as well as one of its most corrupt democracies. Last year’s presidential election in particular—in which President Olusegun Obasanjo, an evangelical Christian, handed power to a northern Muslim, President Umaru Yar’Adua—was a farce. Ballot boxes were stuffed by thugs or carted off empty by armed heavies in the pay of political candidates. Across the country, political power is a passport to wealth: according to Human Rights Watch, anywhere from $4 billion to $8 billion in government money has been embezzled annually for the last eight years. The state has all but abdicated its responsibility for the welfare of its people, roughly half of whom live on less than $1 a day.

In this vacuum, religion has become a powerful source of identity. Northern Nigeria has one of Africa’s oldest and most devout Islamic communities, which was galvanized, like many others, in the 1980s by the global Islamic reawakening that followed the Iranian revolution. For Christians, too, in Nigeria, there’s been a revolution: high birthrates and aggressive evangelization over the past century have increased the number of believers from 176,000, or 1.1 percent of the early-20th-century population, to more than 51 million, or more than a third now. Thanks to this explosive growth, the demographic and geographic center of global Christianity will have moved, by 2050, to northern Nigeria, within the Muslim world.

No one knows what this shift will yield, in part because neither faith is a monolith. Indeed, the most overlooked aspect of this global religious encounter may be that the competition within the faiths—between Pentecostals and orthodox Christians, or between Islamic groups that want to engage with or reject the modern world—is just as important as the competition between the faiths. But it’s also true that the fastest-growing forms of faith on both sides tend to be the most effervescent and absolute. They promote a system of living in this world that promises heaven in the next, they see salvation in stark binary terms, and they believe they have a global mandate to spread their exclusive brand of faith.

While religion became a source of friction in Nigeria during the Biafran civil war in the late 1960s, the trouble between Christians and Muslims intensified in the 1980s, when the first oil boom fizzled and the ensuing economic downturn led to violence. Since then, thousands have been killed in riots between the two groups sparked by various events: aggressive campaigns by foreign evangelists; the implementation in 1999 and 2000 of sharia, or Islamic law, in 12 of Nigeria’s 36 states; the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan in 2001; and the 2002 Miss World pageant, when a local Christian reporter, Isioma Daniel, outraged Muslims by writing in one of Nigeria’s national papers, This Day, that the Prophet Muhammad would have chosen a wife from among the contestants. Most recently, in 2006, riots triggered by Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad left more people dead in Nigeria than anywhere else in the world.

“These conflicts are a result of secular processes,” said Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, one of Nigeria’s leading intellectuals and a top executive of one of the country’s oldest banks, FirstBank. “It’s about bad government, economic inequality, and poverty—a struggle for resources.” When a government fails its people, they turn elsewhere to safeguard themselves and their futures, and in Nigeria at the beginning of the 21st century, they have turned first to religion. Here, then, is the truth behind what Samuel Huntington famously calls religion’s “bloody” geographic borders: outbreaks of violence result not simply from a clash between two powerful religious monoliths, but from tensions at the most vulnerable edges where they meet—zones of desperation and official neglect where faith becomes a rallying cry in the struggle for land, water, and work.

[darkstar3]

11. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

The political, cultural, and economic turmoil in Nigeria are certainly awful, but they didn't kill this child.

His father did.

And his father killed him in a most horrific fashion because he was a new convert to Christianity who believed wholly in the words of the bible, which says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

So tell me how this is anything but a faith-based initiative.

[Chulanowa]

18. Because every time Christians see their religion doing something they can't excuse...

Their first order of action is to try to blame Muslims.

Especially on DU, where their stupid asses will be handed to them if they take the traditional christian route of blaming Jews.

[struggle4progress]

27. Let me say, first, that I have never myself heard it preached in any church that pouring acid

onto or into children was part of the Gospel: no such abuses were ever taught as Christianity anywhere within my hearing ever. Let me say, second, that I have never, on this website or anywhere else, blamed "Muslims" or "Jews" for anything whatsoever, and I have never myself heard such blame preached in any church. Let me say, third, that the sort of broad-brushed stereotyping in evidence throughout this thread is ugly and intolerant

[jemelanson]

29. See below three different articles all saying that this was done in

the name of Christianity. The stereotyping is not of our doing...and in its 2000 year old history the Christian Church has committed some very ugly and intolerant things, especially toward women and children. So you may not have been subjected to this type of verbiage or treatment, however, that does not mean that is has not and is not happening at this time.

There are many accounts of this problem, google Nigerian children witches. at least 528,000 items.
Yes it is an ugly story, that does not mean that we can turn our backs on these children or ignore that it is happening. That is intolerable..

1.

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt Evangelical pastors are helping to create a terrible new campaign of violence against young Nigerians. Children and babies branded as evil are being abused, abandoned and even murdered while the preachers make money out of the fear of their parents and their communities

Watch the video: Child 'witches' in Africa, and click here to see a related gallery
Buzz up!
Digg it
Tracy McVeigh in Esit Eket The Observer, Sunday 9 December 2007 Article history

The rainy season is over and the Niger Delta is lush and humid. This southern edge of West Africa, where Nigeria's wealth pumps out of oil and gas fields to bypass millions of its poorest people, is a restless place. In the small delta state of Akwa Ibom, the tension and the poverty has delivered an opportunity for a new and terrible phenomenon that is leading to the abuse and the murder of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children. And it is being done in the name of Christianity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver

2.

Christians have been in Nigeria since the 19th century and the Niger Delta area claims to have more churches per square mile than any other place on Earth. The vast majority of the country's 60 million Christians are moderate, but an influx of Pentecostals over the past 50 years has led some churches to be dominated by extremist views. Five years ago, the Nigerian government passed a Child Rights Act, which made abuse illegal, but not every state has adopted it.


At the refuge, a baby girl called Utibe and her five-year-old sister, Utitofong, are dumped at the gate by their mother because a "prophet" told her that Utitofong was a witch and had passed the spell to her sister. The mother, who spent four months' salary on an unsuccessful exorcism, left them at the centre because she feared they would be killed. The police are called but locals offer them no help.


Mr Itauma goes to the village to try and convince the locals to accept the daughters' return, but the older girl is threatened by a man with a machete. "Get away from our food - I'll kill you," he shouts. Utibe is allowed to stay, but the older girl has to go back to the refuge.


At the end of the film, Mr Foxcroft and all the "child-witches" stage a demonstration at the Governor's residence in the state capital, Uyo, and urge him to adopt the Child Rights Act." After four hours the Governor comes out and says the Act will be adopted. It has since been adopted, but so far not a single pastor has been convicted of any offense. And the rescue centre still takes in up to 10 children a week.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/3407882/Child-witches-of-Nigeria-seek-refuge.html

3.

This Aug. 18, 2009 photo shows children accused of witchcraft waiting for food at the Children's Rights and Rehabilitation Network in Eket, Nigeria. The idea of witchcraft is hardly new, but it has taken on new life recently partly because of a rapid growth in evangelical Christianity. Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. (AP Photo/Sunday Alamba) (SUNDAY ALAMBA, AP / August 18, 2009)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-af-nigeria-child-witches,0,3012806,full.story

[struggle4progress]

37. The critical issue for your analysis, and the one you fail to address, is this: if the

phenomena were really attributable to Christianity, one should expect to see it widely wherever Christianity is practiced; in fact, this appears in a highly localized form, associated with some rather odd "churches"

This ought to suggest to you that something rather more is needed by way of explanation, than simply waving a single Bible verse to and fro, as if it possessed some demonic power to seize control of people's minds and cause them to behave viciously

[jemelanson]

39. What you fail to comprehend is that this was done in the

Name of the Christian Religion. That the persons were from some rather odd "churches" it does not change the fact that these people represented themselves as ministers of the Christian Faith. Where is your outrage that these adults are useing your religion to extort money from these people and torturing and killing their children to gain control of them. I have seen nothing from what you have said that suggests that you have any anger that these adults would do such a thing in the name of your religion.

This is just the current example of abuse that has been done in the name of the Christian faith.

And there you are, defending this abuse. You are the one who said these are social problems. You have all but said that because this has not been preached in your hearing, and these practices are not the ones followed by your flavor of Christianity, that these are not the teachings of Christianity so this was not done in the name of Christianity and everyone is lieing about why this is being done. How many of these children have to be tortured and murdered before it reaches you. Or are you so cold hearted that the plight of these children does not trouble you?

How very Christian of you.

It is somehow the children's fault because of where they were born, who their parents are, and that these alleged "Christian" ministers came to their village and accused them of being witches.

How very compassionate of you and your Christian faith toward these children.

That speaks volumes about your character as a Christian.

[struggle4progress]

42. Let us try again: first the facts, then the analysis. What is happening in Akwa-Ibom?

Oil extraction is associated with wide-spread contamination of land and water. It is also associated with extremely unequal development. The traditional land-based society has been dislocated and dispossessed, its means of livelihood destroyed, the majority of people being reduced to starving and poisoned poverty. The results of this poverty are predictable: child abandonment is endemic; drug addiction is a problem; pubescent girls are trucked off to brothels ...

In this context, various jackasses are scapegoating children, using whatever language works for them. Some of those jackasses have access to significant media resources; others are probably starving and poisoned themselves. It would certainly be great to eliminate all belief in witchcraft there, and plenty of local people are working on that -- but there is a much larger problem, which the corporate media is not going to publicize

[darkstar3]

52. See #34. n/t

[struggle4progress]

63. Translation: a detailed consideration of the facts on the ground does not interest you

[darkstar3]

68. A detailed consideration is unnecessary in this case,

unless you are trying to somehow absolve the Christian faith of its culpability in this tragedy, and are willing to ignore the fact that this situation began and ended with Christian action.

[darkstar3]

50. The problem you miss is that this has happened before

This is no different than what happened in Salem, feudal England, and many other Christian run areas such as Spain, France, Germany, and Italy during the period between the Dark Ages and the Renaissance. People were often denounced as witches and killed in various ways, all in the name of protecting Christianity and Christians from the evil power supposedly possessed by witches.

There are 1.3 MILLION results on Google if you search for 'Christians and witches', many of which will tell you more about the long-standing feud between Christians and witchcraft.

While YOUR congregation, and the majority of Christians in America, do not fear or persecute witches, that doesn't mean that other Christians agree with you. This should suggest to you that your congregation has found something other than the Bible with which to temper its beliefs. Unless you're going to say that these witch hunting Christians are not in fact Christians...then we'll have a whole new round of 'No True Scotsman.'

[struggle4progress]

60. A scientific examination of problems in Nigeria would begin with conditions and events there, not

by waving generalities about other events and conditions hundreds of years before and thousands of miles away

What has happened in Akwa Ibom is this: "development" has impoverished most of the population, with a resulting social breakdown, and this is followed by a sophisticated media campaign (associated with the name "Helen Ukpabio") to convince people that their problem is witchcraft. There is an iron logic to this: the methods of modern industry destroy the means of sustenance and social structure of an existing population, and then modern industrial tools for producing mass consciousness are applied to encourage the affected people to conceptualize their problems in non-effective ways -- after which the resulting social problems are displayed to the rest of the world as evidence of the superstitious nature of the dispossessed

... A Nigerian pastor has called on fellow pastors in Nigeria to stop deceiving people with the notion of witchcraft. Apostle John Okoriko, the founder and president of Solid Rock Kingdom Church in Nigeria has described the practice of pastors as shameful and manipulative. However such assumed witches and wizards are always the poor in society ... “This thing is dragging our state backward; people have been brainwashed to think negatively. If they suffer a slight misfortune in their businesses instead of looking for practical solution, the pastors will tell them that they are attacked by witches and the person will become a slave to the pastors. It is sad,” the pastor added ... Pastor Helen Ukpabio has used the film industry to create a certain credibility for herself as an expert and force in the spiritual realm. Despite the poverty, hardship and suffering that the political and economic instability in Nigeria creates amongst the poor, the acclaimed deliverer attributes it all to the making of witches and wizards ...

Nigerian Withcraft: Pastor fights deceitful counterparts
Attacks fellow pastor and calls for a stop to the deceit
Thursday 23 April 2009 / by Konye Obaji Ori
http://en.afrik.com/article15604.html

[darkstar3]

66. There's nothing new here!

Yes, I get it. The masses turn to religion to save them from the evils of this modern world in times of economic, cultural, and industrial turmoil. That has been true for millenia. But the cold, hard fact is that the religion they have turned to includes the violent murder of people they deem to be witches.

What if they had turned to Buddhism? A sense of non-being and the idea of minimalizing desire would certainly cause the masses to feel better and more peaceful about their current lot in life, just as their Christianity does now. But Buddhism doesn't tell its adherents that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

I'm not waving generalities or trying to blame 'religion' in general, as you previous post implies. I'm blaming Christianity specifically, and rightfully so. As I said in #34, the path that led to THIS boy's death started and ended with Christianity.

The media didn't denounce him, his Christian pastor did.
The mob didn't kill him, his Christian father did.

Let me ask you this: If the verse had read differently, what would have happened? What if the verse had said "Thou shalt cast out all witches" instead of "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"?

I think the boy would probably still be dead, having been banished from his home at such a young age, but at least it wouldn't have been by the hand of his own father. That took religious conviction on the level of Abraham.

[yodermon]

73. if they had turned to Buddhism, they would have killed the kid anyway.

for non-Buddhist reasons (provided Buddhism doesn't provided an excuse for torturing people somewhere in its theology).
These things are culturally determined.

As I said elsewhere, christianity certainly exacerbated it, but it was not *causal*.

If the verse had said "Thou shalt cast out all witches" as you say, they would just have found some other murderous reason to do the killing.
Maybe the kid all of a sudden becomes a demon-spawn instead. Or whatever. There are murderous impulses at work here and excuses will always be found.

Religion is a manifestation of mental illness. This particular culture is profoundly mentally ill, and will channel the effects of the mental illness (e.g. scapegoating & homicidal rage) via whatever channels that are available, here, Christianity.

By "blaming" Christianity (a bizarre anthropomorphism in & of itself) you are ascribing it magical powers. Don't. That will detract from the true search from causation in these matters (via anthropology, psychohistory, psychology, etc. You know: Science.)

Start here: Psychogenic modalities (this culture is clearly in the infanticidal mode):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#Psychogenic_mode

[darkstar3]

75. Yeah, I have to disagree

'If the verse had said "Thou shalt cast out all witches" as you say, they would just have found some other murderous reason to do the killing.
Maybe the kid all of a sudden becomes a demon-spawn instead. Or whatever. There are murderous impulses at work here and excuses will always be found.'
That's quite a supposition there. Can you support it?

'By "blaming" Christianity (a bizarre anthropomorphism in & of itself) you are ascribing it magical powers.'
How do you jump to that conclusion? Blaming Christianity for starting and finishing this witch-hunt ascribes it no magical powers whatsoever, but rather shows that it, like many other religions, can be motivation for murder.

[yodermon]

80. history is replete with examples of infanticide & child sacrifice. No xianity required.

Not sure what you're asking me to prove.

That the entire practice "started" with the introduction of Christianity to the continent is demonstrably false.

eg from wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

Africa

In Africa some children were killed because of fear that they were an evil omen or because they were considered unlucky. Twins were usually put to death in Arebo; as well as by the Nama Hottentots of South West Africa; in the Lake Victoria Nyanza region; by the Tswana in Portuguese East Africa; among the Ilso and Igbo people of Nigeria; and by the !Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert.<8> The Kikuyu, Kenya's most populous ethnic group, practiced ritual killing of twins.<60> If a mother died in childbirth among the Ibo people of Nigeria, the newborn was buried alive. It suffered a similar fate if the father died.<61>

I would rather spend my time analyzing & correcting the psychological processes that give rise to these practices, than thrashing about against x/y/z religion, (which is itself a psychological construct anyway).

from the OP's article:

There's a scar above Jane's shy smile: her mother tried to saw off the top of her skull after a pastor denounced her and repeated exorcisms costing a total of $60 didn't cure her of witchcraft. Mary, 15, is just beginning to think about boys and how they will look at the scar tissue on her face caused when her mother doused her in caustic soda. Twelve-year-old Rachel dreamed of being a banker but instead was chained up by her pastor, starved and beaten with sticks repeatedly; her uncle paid him $60 for the exorcism.

Israel's cousin tried to bury him alive, Nwaekwa's father drove a nail through her head, and sweet-tempered Jerry - all knees, elbows and toothy grin - was beaten by his pastor, starved, made to eat cement and then set on fire by his father as his pastor's wife cheered it on.

Whatever religion such people claim who do these things is secondary; in fact the religion itself is a further symptom of the underlying psychological trauma which gave rise to these practices in the first place.

[darkstar3]

83. "Hello, I'd like to have an argument please."

I think you're disagreeing with me just be contrary. Regardless of whether that's true or not, have fun playing with your infanticide straw man. You know as well as I do that I never claimed infanticide was specific to Christianity, but you chose to go there anyway. :boring:

[Chulanowa]

147. You're missing the point

You can wank off on your imaginings of these things happening without Christianity if you like, but that's moot. Why?

Because these are Christians doing this to their children, with the encouragement of their church leaders, who are using the bible to point out how and why. It's irrelevant whether you think they would be doing this as Buddhists, because they aren't Buddhists. They're Christians.

Even if you're correct and they would be... It's pretty evident that they wouldn't be doing this without religion. Religion is the "psychological trauma" in your argument. This isn't happening because of a few loons, Yodermon. This is systemic to the institution

[rd_kent]

59. Secular law in more developed countries is what has prevented these types of things

from happening all over. These things DID happen here, on this continent, not too long ago, and were only stopped due to the passage of SECULAR laws. If we really were a "Christian Nation" under some kind of biblical law, this shit would be much more widespread and common.

[Chulanowa]

31. Good for you.

I'll also take a wild stab that you do not believethe bible to be the inerrant word of God, correct? Do you see jesus as more of a man or a myth? Whichever, is he a role model to respect and admire, or is he the literal incarnation of God?

And I've never heard it preached that someone should take a high-powered rifle and blow away a doctor while he's in a rival denomination's church. I have heard church leaders preaching that the "evil doctors must be punished" though. I can crack open your user's manual and find line after line of the deity you worship - even if you only do so in a milquetoast-y fashion - calling for massacres, purges, executions, rape, murder, child abuse - sometimes all in one!

Look at it this way. My computer has a setting that makes it shut off after five minutes of inactivity. I don't find this the least bit useful, and I can't imagine who would. DSo I don't use it. But it's still there, ready for someone else to take advantage of this built-in feature of the Windows Vista operating system. Similarly, just because you yourself have never seen this shit used in your religion, does not mean that it's not there and just waiting for someone else to drag it out.

"Thou Shalt Not Suffer A Witch To Live" and all.

[jemelanson]

36. Your wild stab is close to the truth.

After some 50 years in the Christian faith, and various Churches therein. I had cause to do some research into the Pagan Religions, and found greater peace, and strength, more tolerance along with personal responsibility for what I do, say, and put out into the world. In this research, I have had to look long and hard at what I had been taught, including those things which are not supposed to be questioned. I asked several Pagans whom I had met for reading lists, compared the several lists I received and started reading. At first I was angry, angry at those who had taught me, and who had lied to me, then after some thought I realized that they did not know. They had been lied to also, and had not discovered the lies. The Christian Religion has a very dark side, that until and unless they face that part of their religion, they will not find the light. The Christian religion is not a religion of love, hope, or forgiveness, it has not brought to this world anything that has advanced the civilization, or the human race. It is a cult of death. This is my opinion and I stand with the generations of Women who have stood as a beacon of hope and life in a world culture that has for over 2000 years done all within its power to put out any and all beacons of light and hope and life.

The Holy Bible is a plagiarized book of myths. Every story contained within its covers was stolen from the religions that came before it.

The first book I read that rocked my world was "When God Was a Woman" by Merlin Stone. From there I continued my quest, which led me to where I am now. Fast approaching my 60th Birthday and now not only a Pagan but a Radical Feminist.

"It is my birthright to have and to share. Blessings upon thee, may the spirits be fair."

[struggle4progress]

38. It is, of course, true that people can (and often do) justify their bad behaviors by lofty appeals:

this is not a new phenomenon, nor is it restricted to a single culture or religion or other container for social values. I have heard people justify their contempt for the poor by blathering happily about the Protestant work ethic (which is not in itself a bad thing); I have heard people justify blowing up innocent strangers abroad by making pleasant sounds about democracy (which is not in itself a bad thing); and this list could be indefinitely extended, to include numerous other similar examples of rotten acts and attitudes justified by appealing to various high ideals

If this Bible verse you quote had the dark power you attribute to it, just waiting malevolently there to wreck lives when the appropriate switch were thrown, one should expect "witches" to be murdered wherever there were devote Christians, Jews, or Muslims, since all three religions hold the text in respect. But this does not happen in general, and so the exceptional cases deserve a somewhat closer scrutiny -- although no one in this thread seems interested in such scrutiny

[Chulanowa]

44. The thing is, it's not made up out of thin air

This isn't "My dog told me to kill them" shit. This is not "twinkie defense". This is a book of mythology that the vast majority of the western world regards as an acceptable moral compass for all humanity - and most of what's left of the world accepts a very similar book from the same source as their moral lighthouse.

I don't believe the verse itself has any "dark power," I don't believe it "waits malevolently" and you absolutely know you're attacking a fucking straw man of your own creation there.

But the book that so many people regard as the absolute word of the guiding force of the universe absolutely does tell you to kill witches. Of course most people are sound enough to skip over that part... But it's still in the instruction manual, isn't it? There's no shortage of people who will go "Well, if God says this is what we do, then it's what we do"

[jemelanson]

45. That book tells you a lot of stuff that reasonable people

do not do. however there are some who do believe it to be the literal word of God. I even knew some who swore that the words written in red in the KJV, were the actual words spoken by the Christ. Now how he learned to speak the English spoken in the time of King James is not known. The bible also supports slavery, all sorts of killing for crimes against Man's absolute control of women, all sorts of dietary laws that are not followed except by Jews. There are laws about killing those who labor on the Sabbath.

The God of that Bible had some very bad qualities. He was jealous, vengeful, demanded blood sacrifices, at times demanded human sacrifices to appease his anger. Not a very good father figure.
This God ordered the murder and slavery, of thousands of people in order to provide a home for his chosen people. He alleged created the race of humans and gave them free will, then punished them with death for using their free will. In fact he blamed half of the race of humans for this and cursed them for all time, and then required the blood sacrifice of his own son to appease his own anger and still created the most horrific eternal punishment for all who did follow his laws without error or question. A rather blood thirsty god, if you know what I mean.

[Chulanowa]

71. I'm aware

The fact that I'm handier with a bible than all my fundy relatives is a neverending source of amusement for me. Though my eldest uncle comes close. Ever debated a southern baptist about the books of the Minor prophets? It's a hoot. "Habakkuk? Goddamn boy, where'd you learn that word?"

I was never christian, myself. I was raised Christian, I went to church, but I can't remember doing anything other than occasionally making a gesture to please my parents. The concept of original sin was just completely alien to me, and if that doesn't work, then neither does Jesus' sacrifice, right? So I guess I'm just one of those uncommon people who never had to "Rebel" because they were never part of the club to begin with?

I find religion incredibly fascinating. i've studied it since I was a kid, and what I've discovered is that most of it is, and never was worth all the effort people put into it. I consider myself an animist - it [leases the animal chunk of my brain - but I suppose functionally I'm an atheist. Or a pantheist, which is almost the same thing in practice. :rofl:

[jemelanson]

72. I know what your mean.

As one of my sisters stated not to long ago, that some of the cousins seem to be missing the gene that allows one to question the organized religions practices and teachings.

[darkstar3]

51. delete - wrong place

[kwassa]

32. and who is doing that?

reading comprehension is a wonderful thing.

[Chulanowa]

74. You are

And I agree that reading comprehension is a wonderful thing. Maybe read your own material before posting it?

You come to a thread about a Christian father pouring acid down his son's throat at the behest of a christian priest.. .and you post an article about religious conflict between Christians and Muslims in Nigeria. As asked before, what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

My take is that you are making a deflection - "Look at the muslims! They do bad thigns too! Just don't look at the christians" - I have this take because every single time I see something like this, that is exactly what is being attempted.

If you had something else in mind, well, you did a piss-poor job of it.

[kwassa]

81. just to spell it out for you

since you seem incapable of connecting the dots on your own ...

The issue is not just a Christian issue, it is a cultural issue that exists within the context of Nigerian societies and the manifold religious and social problems that exist there, plus traditional beliefs about witchcraft. Get it? Clear enough for you?

Attempting to pin it on Christianity alone is ignorant in the extreme, though this might satisfy the Christian-haters on the board here, it is simply not about just that.

Case in point: Nigerian Anglican Archbishop Peter Akinola is a major homophobe, so much so that he is the chief source of attack on the the Episcopal Church in the United States, over which he has zero jurisdiction, because we elevated a gay man to be a Bishop. He has caused problems worldwide in the church over this, as well. Anti-gay beliefs are so strong there that the Nigerian government is looking at making it punishable by prison terms, and this is supported by Akinola.

Now, our Christian church has come to an opposite viewpoint about homosexuality. Who is more accurately Christian, and which belief is more representative of Christianity?

[darkstar3]

84. 'Who is more accurately Christian, and which belief is more representative of Christianity?'

You're both Christians, and you both reflect the faith. Just like Fred Phelps.

Otherwise you're playing No True Scotsman.

[kwassa]

93. Only in your opinion.

and No True Scotsman should have a special hall-of-fame award for the most misapplied logical fallacy of all time. At least in this forum.

Christianity has wide and diverse definitions, and no one is obligated to honor any that is not their own. That is just the way it is. Some define it as anyone who calls themselve a Christian, others have specific criteria of their group, their sect, or just of their own.

[darkstar3]

94. I suggest you read up on the fallacy before you call it misapplied,

especially considering the fact that your second paragraph EXACTLY corresponds to No True Scotsman. You and your Christian friends who have 'specific criteria' are redefining the term Christian ad hoc to suit your needs. You can read more about this fallacy here and here.

But then, that would require to you read something suggested to you by a mean old atheist, and be willing to admit that you might be wrong about something. :nopity:

[kwassa]

100. uh, no.

I am not redefining Christian ad hoc at all, and that is exactly why No True Scotsman doesn't apply, because it rests on the false premise that all must agree that anyone that calls themselves a Christian is one. That is the definition that many atheists love, but is simply one of many definitions of what constitutes a Christian.

For your educational edification:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn.htm

[darkstar3]

111. but is simply one of many definitions of what constitutes a Christian.

You deny the fallacy, and use it in your own post once again. :rofl:

[kwassa]

126. You don't understand the fallacy.

I am glad you are amused by that.

and once again you avoided the point you can't answer.

Predictable.

[darkstar3]

127. Is that all you have? Projection? Now you bore me.

ETA:

[Chulanowa]

142. Is that a rhetorical question?

"Who is more accurately Christian, and which belief is more representative of Christianity?"

The answer to both is "Peter Akinola". You refer to yourself as a Christian, but have you ever read the bible? Or do you just take snips of it at a time, and lean heavily at whatever your clergy interprets from the rest, like the overwhelmingly vast majority of your co-religionists do?

Christianity holds that homosexuality is a sin. There is flat-out no question there, both testaments agree. Both testaments also agree that a gay man (or for that matter a woman, or a man without testicles) cannot "serve in the temple" as it were. While I'll happily give a thumbs-up to your church for ignoring all that and taking a less barbaric approach to the situation, the fact is, you're doing it wrong. It's like trying to play a VHS tape in an old Betamax. Nobody can blame you for using the new and improved format, but the system you're trying to run it in just doesn't accept it.

And don't try to pin it on Nigerians. Yeah they have their screwed-up problems. Do you imagine that our country is much better? It's a comforting fantasy for most westerners, but truth is... No. We're just as fucked-up. We don't need to pour acid on a child to punish him for being a witch - we just utterly demolish his pyche with hte knowledge that god hates him for the way god supposedly created him, tell him that he is an abomination,m disown him, and shed no tears - even make jokes - when he kills himself... Which according to his religion, condemns him to an eternal torment of hellfire and torture.

Of course, just because we're so good at religious psychological torture being applied to our kids, it doesn't mean we've given up the physical aspect. How many women are beaten or murdered in the United States for "defying her husband's authority"? How many stories do we have to hear of hyper-religious parents essentially raising their children in a box? Do you think it's only Catholic heads of church that are fondling and raping children?

You can argue that this would have happened whatever the local religion - and you'd be right. Even Buddhism has a big bloody smear through the middle. But that's missing hte point. The Christian bible told this man to kill his child. His christian minister backed it up. This event happened because of a Christian belief.

And for the record, I don't hat Christians. I just regard them, and their fellows in Islam, Judaism, and Mormonism to be terribly misguided people who tack their hides to the big board of an insane misanthropist deity who even after killing himself to apologize to himself for his own curse against hiumanity, is going to kill most of us anyway and laugh at our eternal torture. I'm certain most people in these religions are awesome, wonderful people. But then, i'm sure people who shit in the public pool are cool people too, so long as they're not shitting in a public pool.

You guys need to stop disowning bad things that happen in your religion's name, and start accepting that yes, bad shit happens becuase of that damned book so many of you hold up as moral authority. I don't expect you to rip your shirt, fly out to Nigeria and lay the smack down, but simply realizing "Yeah, there are grotesque chunks of hte religion I happen to follow" would be a nice start.

[kwassa]

33. A faith-based initiative? It is, but not of Christian origin.

A belief in witches really stems from religious and cultural predecessors to Christianity, the animistic traditional practices of the different tribal groups.

http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/node/18

Child Witches
Background

An increasing number of children in the Niger Delta are being forced to the streets and trafficked as a result of a deeply held belief in child “witches” and also due to persistent violent conflicts, poverty, abuse, torture, rape, or being orphaned by HIV/AIDS. The role of HIV/AIDS in the escalating street children crisis cannot be underestimated. The United Nations estimates that there are 930,000 HIV/AIDS orphans in Nigeria. The failure to address the increasing incidence of HIV/AIDS and the belief that it is spread by witchcraft is significantly amplifying the primary causes of the crisis. Care for Nigeria's street children remains one of the governments' major challenges, but little is being done by them to support these children.

Child Witchcraft: The Akwa Ibom Perception


The deeply held belief by the people of Akwa Ibom State and the Efik speaking communities in Cross River State cuts across all tiers of society. Widely read and travelled academics and local villagers fear such children. This fear stems from the belief that a spiritual spell can be given to a person through food and drink. The soul of the person who eats this spell will then leave the body to be initiated in a gathering of witches and wizards. The initiated person will then have the power to wreak havoc, such as causing diseases like HIV/AIDS, malaria, hepatitis, typhoid, cancer. All accidents, drunkenness mental health problems, smoking of marijuana, divorce, infertility, and misfortunes are seen to be the handiwork of witches and wizards. In recent times it is believed that children have become the target for initiation by the elderly witches as they are more susceptible to their spells and are quicker in action.

[darkstar3]

34. While it is true that a belief in witchcraft predates Christianity,

what you are missing is that Christianity itself also preaches against witchcraft. And it doesn't just happen in Nigeria either. Come to rural America and visit a Pentecostal or SBC congregation just before the release of a Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings type movie. The stuff they spout is surreal, but that doesn't mean they don't get it from the Bible.

I don't understand how you can think that what happened here is unrelated to Christianity. A Christian pastor denounced the child (for reasons I'd be interested in knowing), then the boy's Christian father, following the Biblical precept of 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live', attempted to kill him.

The situation began with Christianity, and ended with Christianity.

So tell me another one about how your faith is not responsible for this tragedy.

[kwassa]

78. It has to be viewed in context. It doesn't begin and end with Christianity.

That is simply Christian-bashing. You would like to cut out the cultural context that this crime really took place in. Good luck with that.

I never said that the crime is unrelated to Christianity; we can simply look at the Salem witch trials and other earlier persecution of individuals perceived as witches by Christian churches. It doesn't work, though, to lay this crime at the foot of Christianity alone.

The concept is syncretism, when two belief systems are merged together, and the other belief system is the traditional African belief in witches.

And, no, my faith isn't responsible for the tragedy, those individuals that commit these crimes are responsible for the tragedy, they, and those that advocate this crime.

[darkstar3]

82. Christians believe in witches too.

Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a Biblical context to the murder of this boy.

And you can call my analysis of this situation whatever you want, but it doesn't stop the fact that this murder was committed by a Christian following Christian precepts at the urging of his Christian pastor. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me...in fact, it reminds me of something that happened recently here in the US...something that happened in Kansas...:think:

But I'm sure that offends you since you'd like to think that your faith is not responsible for such horrors. That doesn't surprise me. If you were a Muslim, you'd be defending Sharia law. It is the nature of things.

But just because you're hell-bent to defend your faith against being painted by this atrocity, that doesn't mean you're right. If this child's family were not Christian, there is a very decent probability that he would be alive today, and there is a very high probability that his death would not have involved acid in the hands of his father. There is simply no compelling argument that can state otherwise.

[kwassa]

101. Very few Christians worldwide believe in witches.

and in the West the last witch trials were several hundred years ago.

And you can call my analysis of this situation whatever you want, but it doesn't stop the fact that this murder was committed by a Christian following Christian precepts at the urging of his Christian pastor. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me

Of course it does, it thereby fulfills a Christian-bashing agenda. By limiting the argument to only those sources of the crimes that involve Christianity, one could blame Christianity.

It is not a Christian precept, it is an Old Testament precept, and a very minor one among thousand of others that is little observed.

as to whether or not the boy would be alive if his father weren't Christian, that is probably so, unless he, like many other children, is blamed for being a witch by another group.

so maybe, maybe not.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. Yes, he could have fallen victim to one of the indigenous African beliefs in

witchcraft.

[darkstar3]

113. But do they put sugar on their porridge? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. This is not any kind of mainstream Christianity

This is the Nigerian version of the free-lance fundie with a high school education or less who decides that a church is a good way to make money.

[darkstar3]

112. Does this mean you are denying their Christianity? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. Yes, they're syncretists

who have blended indigenous African beliefs about witchcraft with half-understood passages from the Bible.

[darkstar3]

131. So who IS Christian? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

133. Someone who actually tries to follow the teachings of Jesus

Not some loon who takes a passage out of context from the Bible and founds a whole belief system on it.

Not someone whose sole purpose is to scam gullible people out of their money. (Real churches keep a close watch over parish finances. The minister gets a definite salary and needs permission from the lay governing body to spend a penny more.)

[darkstar3]

135. You've made some broad statements here.

First, biblical scholars are STILL trying to figure out exactly what Jesus was trying to say, so you might need to be more specific. There are very liberal and very conservative churches, and both sides believe wholly that they are following the teachings of Jesus.

'Not some loon who takes a passage out of context from the Bible and founds a whole belief system on it.

Not someone whose sole purpose is to scam gullible people out of their money.'

And where in the article from the OP did you see this little nugget? Is it true that this Nigerian Christian church is simply a fleecing scheme, or do they simply disagree with your interpretation of the Bible?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. The Sermon on the Mount is a good start

Most of the controversial material from the "Jesus Seminar" comes from the Gospel of John, which is the latest Gospel and widely believed to be a reinterpretation of the story in terms of Greek philosophy.

[darkstar3]

138. So who picks what is right and what to ignore? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

139. The stuff that is internally consistent, as with any set of writings

If you're interested in Biblical criticism there are plenty of books to read about it.

For me, it's just after midnight, so I will sign off.

[darkstar3]

151. I haven't found anything that was internally consistent yet.

There were four significantly different accounts of Jesus' life.

There are serious difference between God's attitude in the Old Testament vs. the New.

Paul's writings pretty much contradict everything Jesus supposedly stood for in the realm of equality and loving they neighbor.

And Jesus seems pretty schizophrenic when it comes to violence.

When you look at each book, as scholars have, as an individually written story or narrative meant to reach a specific group of people, it starts to make more sense. When you allow those stories to be fictional, the inconsistencies between them begin to make even more sense. Factor in that the NT wasn't even started until a generation after Jesus' death, and you begin to see why I question how anyone can use this book as any kind of guide for life in today's modern world.

[rd_kent]

12. If I am wrong and there IS a god and he passes judgement, I know I am WAAYYY down on the list

for the express bus to hell. Seems like these and many other "christians" have a place in line in front of me.........

[Dorian Gray]

91. Of course there are

there are a lot of evil people who profess to be Christians. This story proves that.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. Nothing new here. The Christian chruch has burned witches for..

most of its history.

Nobody should be surprised, but everybody should be offended.

[Chulanowa]

19. Nah, the "burning times" are a myth

Most "witches" were drowned, hanged, or simply chopped apart. The burning at the stake was reserved mostly for Jews and members of Christian "heresies". See, the idea was, a "witch" wasn't worth all the wood it would take to burn him / her.

'Course when talking about the Inquisition we can't forget the theft of Jewish children in Italy that continued until the 20th century. We also can't leave out the massacres in Notheastern Europe as Swedish and Polish Catholics went on a crusade against the old religions there. And who can forget the Spanish Inquisition, directly responsible for the deaths of millions in the Americas, a slaughter so wholesale that even the Pope went "Hey wait just a damn minute, you're supposed to forcibly convert them, not kill them all!"

[jemelanson]

22. And some say the Bible is all myth.

Maybe you should read "The Dark Side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerbe. The burning time aka The Inquisition is no more a myth than the Holocaust is a myth.

[Chulanowa]

23. Maybe you should read my post and not just the title?

I'm just saying most of the "witches" were in fact, not burned. They were killed in far more gruesome but less dramatic ways

[Ozymanithrax]

28. You are right. I was merely pointing out that Christians have murdered other people...

for their beliefs with an alarming regularity.

[DeSwiss]

15. It is my considered opinion, that Christians DO NOT risk denouncing.....

...their more extreme and intellectually-challenged members, such as in the case of these cretins, for in doing so they must necessarily denounce the same text, the same beliefs, and the same savior that they themselves revere and hold sanctified and holy. And yet all of which is the same basis upon which these atrocities were carried out. In the same manner in which the idea of loving a sinner but hating the sins those sinners commit makes no practical sense, the reality of accepting a flawed and fantastical religion cannot be separated from such stupidity because it is an integral part of it. And anyone denying that this is the case, simply doesn't know what they're talking about, or they're just lying and trying to have it both ways. They want to take out the good parts and ignore all the rest. But you can't.

Look into your bibles Christians and there among the wizards and witches, the dragons and unicorns and the miracles that deny logic and physics, there you will find the chasm between reality and the Bronze-Age bullshit that you call: religion. You OWN this death and all the others. You OWN the maiming of bodies and of innocence. Whether you like it or not it is a part of you and what you believe. Whether you personally accept such ridiculousness or not is immaterial -- your religion does and until it no longer does, then you are a part of this. Your people, your fellow believers did this. And the longer you remain silent, then your silence continues to offer aid and comfort to these perpetrators of evil and equals your consent to them to continue. Like the stink when one has stepped into dog shit, this is all over you and you cannot get away from it.

Now I can somewhat understand why Christian apologists go into denial about these cases of accused witchcraft and the cases pedophilia and the cases of rape and manipulation of women -- because in doing so it allows them to retain this insanity which they call a loving and forgiving religion. It allows them to continue on without having to challenge their beliefs. They won't have to ask uncomfortable questions as they would if these atrocities were happening in a daycare center or a school, or some other secular institution. But because it is related directly to their religion, they turn their heads away so they won't have to look at this reality. It is a visage that they fear they cannot recover from.

I realize that the subconscious impulse to cling to these ridiculous ideals is at work here. And that they feel that they cannot help the fact that they've chosen to retain these fictional explanations for reality which were imposed upon them as children. They must fear subconsciously that to reject these beliefs, it would mean that they are likewise rejecting their past and their ancestors from which these fairy tale beliefs have their genesis.

And yet to acknowledge the depravity that these beliefs often act out into their reality, then that also means they must acknowledge and justify how such ridiculous concepts can remain a part of their rationality. How they, a modern and reasonable being, can continue to co-exist within such a religious belief system. Lacking the ability to face the answer to these questions, instead they go silent. And they leave the question hanging in the air unanswered. Knowing that while they do so, more will die and more will become victims of their religion, because of their cowardice and failure to face the truth.

And yet they put on their blinders and carry-on as if nothing has happened. They won't even mention this to their fellow believers, because the less said, the better. And they deny vociferously any attempts to connect themselves with these acts of mindless stupidity, because they don't want the taint -- the smell to be associated with themselves.

But its unavoidable. All of them smell to the high heavens, with the stink of ignorance that is the larger part of all religions.

[struggle4progress]

20. Are any churches in your neighborhood advocating pouring acid down children's throats?

[tiny elvis]

43. you are not killing witches because your religion's power

is limited by the force of secular law
can't you recall the crazed witch hunts against preschool teachers in the '80s and '90s?
our religion free law barely held the madness at bay

[struggle4progress]

49. I'm not killing witches because I do not believe in witchcraft and I do not believe in violence

If you want to claim there was some vast move afoot in the 1980s and 1990s here in the US to brand preschool teachers as witches, perhaps you could supply some links

[rd_kent]

57. Perhaps instead of saying "well, me and MY church are not doing this" you should get proactive

and DO something about what is being done in the NAME of YOUR religion.

[struggle4progress]

62. I shall defer to your self-righteousness and will allow you to explain your understanding

of the situation and your current program of action

[rd_kent]

67. self-righteousness? Im not a xtian, no one is killing people under the banner of non-belief of god

This rests on your shoulders and on the shoulders of ALL christians. Christians seem to think THEY have the one TRUE answer by knowing the ONE TRUE god. The nigerians are only doing the same. Nah, you cannot shirk the responsibility on this one.

[kwassa]

79. Actually, it rests on the shoulders of all human beings, not just Christians.

and what makes you think this brand of Nigerian belief listens to liberal Christians, anyways? The Western press doesn't pay attention to liberal Christians, despite the good works, because it is not controversial enough to make the papers. We can and do denounce these things forever, but without big media coverage the general public doesn't know about it.

and many millions have been killed under atheist regimes. Want to walk back into that discussion again?

[rd_kent]

95. There is no discussion to walk into.

Who was killed in the NAME of atheism? Who? Sure, there may have been atheists that committed atrocities upon mankind, but none of that was done in the NAME of atheism. Theres is no discussion there because trying to equate the two is bunk.

You can be as obtuse about this all you want, but it does not change the fact that people are being KILLED in the name of christianity (as well as Islam, etc.). Get it? in the name of religion. Unless you can accept that FACT for what it is, we will be unable to agree about anything.

[kwassa]

109. You create false parameters.

Millions have clearly been killed in the name of atheism, as part of a larger state belief system.

That is the equivalency, and to dismiss it is bunk, to quote you. They are easily equated, as the long previous thread on this topic showed, as the atheism refered to is strong atheism, of course. People are rarely killed soley in the name of religion, often nationalism, culture, and a simple desire for power, or greed are equal factors in these conflicts. You attempt to state a moral high ground where none exists, of course.

You can't get off the hook, try as you might.

[darkstar3]

119. Clearly?!

You should go back and read that thread, as the points you made were proven solidly false.

You were given the opportunity to substantiate your claims that 'Millions have clearly been killed in the name of atheism' in that thread, and you couldn't do it. Yet you continue to use this false ad hom in your arguments.

No wonder you amuse me, you spin faster than a top...

[kwassa]

125. You mistake persistence for an argument.

You will always have the last note in a thread, but your OP was a lame invalid premise then, and still is. You avoided virtually every point I made.

and go ahead, respond. Have the last word. See who you convince. See who cares. I sure don't.

[Dorian Gray]

92. So as a human being

you depend on others (Christians) doing something to address this. And if they don't, you can blame them for not stopping it. But you don't have to do anything yourself to stop it?

Is that what you are saying?

I agree that this must be stopped. The Press, Christian organizations around the world, and humanity at whole all have a responsibility here. Pointing fingers at us, however, seems to be a way of removing responsibility from yourself while providing an ongoing source of outrage. That doesn't help anybody.

[rd_kent]

96. No, not what I am sayiong at all.

And what I do to stop this is to FIGHT against all religion. Thats what I do. When religion is gone, then you can ask me what I am doing to stop the killing......

and I will point the finger where it belongs, right at christianity.

[Dorian Gray]

98. Okay...

I see your outrage. This should instill a sense of outrage in all of us.

I, however, think you're wrong about all religion. And I will fight you on that, as well. Eradicating all religion will not eradicate all the horrible violence in this world. People will find other justifications for the horrors that they perpetrate against humanity.

I still stand that it is our responsibility as human beings to fight against these horrors and injustices wherever we see them. Bringing light to the violence against children and learning more about the situation there while holding is a start, and I do think that we all need to be outraged against the churches and pastors who perpetrate this violence. But I don't think this is representative of all Nigerians in the world, let alone all Christians in the world. It would be like attributing this violence to all Africans because it was perpetrated by Africans.

[rd_kent]

99. We will just have to disagree.

I, however, think you're wrong about all religion. And I will fight you on that, as well. Eradicating all religion will not eradicate all the horrible violence in this world. People will find other justifications for the horrors that they perpetrate against humanity.

I never stated that eradicating all religion would end violence in the world, never, nor do I think that will happen. I do know that most of the atrocities done since written time were done under the banner of religion, much of that under the banner of christianity. That is not up for debate, that is fact.

But I don't think this is representative of all Nigerians in the world, let alone all Christians in the world. It would be like attributing this violence to all Africans because it was perpetrated by Africans.

That would seem to make sense on its face, but does not hold water. Africans ARE African because that is where they are from. Christians are Christians because they CHOOSE to be Christians. They CHOOSE to belong to a group that CONDONES, either though direct action or inaction, the atrocities perpetrated under its banner. We have the same thing happen here....the holocaust memorial shootings, the killing of doctors, the bombing of medical clinics, the destruction of the federal building in OK City.........the list goes on and on.

I stand by my statement that religion, in all its forms, is THE #1 cause of most of the major problems and conflicts in the world. Even right here at home, our GOVERNMENT is constantly bogged down by religious fanaticism (yes, I said it) in the form of attempts to work religious dogma into out laws or attemps to block the removal of religious dogma from existing laws. When we have eradicated religion from this planet, violence will still be with us, sure, but I feel mankind will be better off, more enlightened and able to get along MUCH MUCH better.

[Dorian Gray]

105. I don't think that we'll see that in our lifetime

and I agree on one thing with you...

we will have to agree to disagree here.

And probably on one other thing: There is absolutely no justification for this horrible crime, and the perpetrators need to be punished by law and denounced by the entire world.

The lessons we each take from that point are our own. The story horrifies me.

[tiny elvis]

76. can you not recall?

here is the easiest link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria
it lists fourteen 'significant' cases
here is another link
http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:N_fu8bJjMwAJ:ncrj.org/resources/info/tavris/+preschool+witch+hunt+carolina&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
and another
http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/SocialConstruction/FellsAcresDaycare.html
something vast was afoot and noone found refuge in the church, because the church supports witch hunts

[struggle4progress]

85. The links you provide contain no actual references to witchcraft allegations in daycares but

merely use the word "witch hunt" in the metaphorical sense

bye :hi:

[tiny elvis]

86. yes they do

[tiny elvis]

88. do you really not recall the allegations of satanic rituals even now?

[struggle4progress]

97. Your 2nd and 3rd links in #76 contain neither references to witchcraft nor to satanic rituals. Your

1st link (Wikipedia) concerns allegations of sexual abuse at day care centers: it contains no reference to witchcraft but does reference in several cases accusations of "satanic rituals," most (but not all) of which were determined to be false. The overturned convictions led to national scrutiny about methods for querying young children. The media played a role in hyping some of this, and overzealous prosecutors have some responsibility as well. I do not see any obvious and direct connection to the churches

You should, of course, be able to distinguish between accusations of "witchcraft" and accusations of "satanic rituals." An accusation that someone is a witch is simply not sensible, to the modern mind. On the other hand, the fact, that the modern mind does not believe in satan, does not prevent anyone living today from engaging in bizarre ritual behaviors motivated by a desire to worship or appease satan; it is rare, but it does happen, as shown by a few links later.

Vampire couple jailed for satanic murder
By Justin Rowlatt in Bochum
Friday, 1 February 2002
... The pair had confessed to killing the man in their apartment surrounded by human skulls, cemetery lights, scalpels and incense – because the Devil ordered them to do so .... The victim .. was hit over the head with a hammer, stabbed 66 times and had a pentagram carved into his chest. The Rudas say they then drank his blood and slept together in a coffin they kept at their flat ... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vampire-couple-jailed-for-satanic-murder-672009.html

How to Get a Girl Back?
By Rachelle Bowden
November 29, 2005 4:00 PM
David Rodriguez got dumped by his girlfriend and instead of using some classic, romantic method of getting his ex-girlfriend back like buying her jewelry or telling her how much he loves her or filling her house with roses, David decided that kidnapping some kids and performing a satanic ritual was the way to go. The 18-year-old lovelorn Chicagoan has been accused of kidnapping a 6-year-old girl and her 8-year-old brother to perform the demonic ritual intended to bring back his former lover. Rodriguez and his 15-year-old buddy snatched the kids outside a South Side library and intended to carve a pentacle on the girl's chest. Since they only needed the girl for the ritual, they let her brother go and he ran off and told people on the street about the kidnapping ... http://chicagoist.com/2005/11/29/how_to_get_a_girl_back.php

[tiny elvis]

108. made you look

and now you are trying to prove that satan is among us
bye with a smilie

[struggle4progress]

120. oops. assumed i was conversing with an adult. let's try again after you're out of middle school

[tiny elvis]

121. sayeth the lord

[rd_kent]

124. you are a douchebag.

and so is your lord. yep, I said it.

[tiny elvis]

164. because you were ][ this close to winning before i got douchey

no true scotsman, i

[Lydia Leftcoast]

132. Another thing about "Satanic abuse"

Years ago, I heard a talk by mystery writer Andrew Vacchs, who in his day job is an attorney who represents children in abuse cases.

Someone asked him about "Satanic abuse," and his opinion was that most of it was imaginary but that the few real cases were pedophiles using Satanic paraphernalia to scare children into submission.

[DeSwiss]

48. Yes.

This is my neighborhood.....

[rd_kent]

58. Nice!

[DeSwiss]

70. Thanks!

[struggle4progress]

61. But, of course! LOL! Still, you have merely exhibited your talent for clever equivocation, since you

are not answering the question I actually asked you. My question was intended to dislodge you from your ideological games, which are no substitute for careful fact-based analysis. If you are concerned about the situation in Akwa Ibom, perhaps you should begin with a careful detailed examination of specifics, rather than indulging in broad generalities that shed no real light on the situation

[DeSwiss]

69. Well you don't address my post's points either.....

...so I figured it was only fair. The only aspect that seems of concern to you I can only garner by way of the question you ask relating to the victim(s) of religious ignorance and intolerance in which you seem to suggest that they must be personally known to someone in order for their plight to be "relevant." Which is quite a clever approach at misdirection itself.

- And typical of someone wishing to change the subject....



"Which line are you in?"

[rd_kent]

56. Are any churches in your neighborhood CONDEMNING what is done in their name?

And taking action to STOP what is done in its name?

[struggle4progress]

64. Remind me: in the name of what churches in my neighborhood is this done?

If any churches in my neighborhood advocate pouring acid down children's throats, or support such a thing, I should expect some consequences

[rd_kent]

65. You can be as obtuse about the subject as you want to be.

If you consider yourself a christian then the responsibility to put a stop to this rest on you and other christians shoulders.

[rd_kent]

55. [phone]! Christians are in the same spot as Muslims that condone (by lack of action)

the killings and atrocities done in the name of THAT religion, too. This really should just go to show how religion, at it CORE, is a bad, bad thing. I stand by my assertions that religion, in ALL ITS FORMS, is the ROOT cause of most, if not all, major problems in the world.

[hootinholler]

24. Don't forget Sarah's Hero!

Muthee. Built his empire on 'outing' witches.

-Hoot

[yodermon]

30. If xianity had never been introduced, they would have found some other reason to burn the kid.

These are tribal
Xianity does exacerbate it though.

[darkstar3]

35. See post #34. n/t

[struggle4progress]

40. Curse of the rains (Sunday Orisakwe | June 2002)

... Chief Samuel Edoko Eket, Chairman, Eket local council echoes similar sentiments, saying air pollution and other pollutions are gradually destroying his people and their land. "It is a systematic destruction that gradually creeps in without your noticing it, except you know what is happening," he wails. "Look at it from this angle; the children in this town are dying because of malnutrition, their parents can no longer give them protein-rich food. Most of these children's parents are farmers and fishermen. And now, the farmers can no longer grow food, because the land is acidic due to air pollution from Mobil which results in acidic rain. Aquatic life around these villages is almost non-existent because of gas flaring. So, in all, you have a system where parents in these villages can no longer fend for their family. And because in any serious situation children are the first to suffer, that is why some of these children are looking horrible, because of the polluted air they are subjected to breathe" ...

For land pollution, says Mrs. Attah, landscapes are disturbed, there is deforestation, aesthetic deterioration, soil degradation, ecosystem destabilization, reduced land arability, soil porosity and desertification. "And for that of water, you have reduced life span of aquatic organisms, reduced productivity of fish, migration of fish to deeper waters, toxicity to fish, toxicity to those that consume these fishes and malnutrition," Mrs. Attah points out. "But the situation we cannot run away from even if we try to is the air pollution. The inhaling of this polluted air in some of these villages where oil companies are operating cause respiratory dysfunction, cancer and acid rain which causes dilapidation of shelter and soil degradation" ...

During the world conference of mayors in Nigeria last June, the president of the World Conference of Mayors Gary Loster, Mayor of Saginaw, Michigan United States led a delegation of World Conference of Mayors on an environmental fact-finding trip to Akwa Ibom. After the trip, Loster said: "It was felt that the world needed to understand what was happening in Akwa Ibom. It is a serious situation. The health of women and children has been impaired in a very negative sense. The water is contaminated, the food, the fish that they eat is contaminated and the soil, they cannot plant on or produce food from. It is a very bad situation all the way round. Certainly something must be done or else, subsequently you will see these people die or pass away in a short time. It is a very serious situation" ...

http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/carticles/curse_of_the_rains.htm

[ZombieHorde]

87. How does this relate to violent exorcisms? nt

[struggle4progress]

107. My POV is explained in #14, ¶2. And again in #42. Yet again in #60. Et passim.

[ZombieHorde]

123. OK, I think I understand now.

Your argument would hold more weight if there were no violent exorcisms in the U.S.

Seems to me teaching people there is no such thing as the supernatural would help curb this type of violence, as opposed to teaching people there are supernatural forces, some of which are evil. Teaching people the Holy Bible's version of the supernatural is true seems to be especially bad since the Holy Bible clearly advocates killing witches.

[struggle4progress]

41. Sale of Womanhood or Sex? (Sexuality in Africa Vol 5 #3 2008)

By Margaret Onah

... Most of the sex workers in Lagos state are from the South-South and South-East regions of Nigeria and they are between the ages 12 - 30. Most of the girls are brought to Lagos from Calabar, Uyo, Akwa-Ibom, Port-Harcourt and other parts of Nigeria ...

http://www.arsrc.org/publications/sia/sep08/issue.htm

[Meshuga]

46. People would get jail time

"Some wonder if this type of behavior will occur here if the fundies have their way. You know the ones who take literally the Bible. This is the danger when conservative fundamentalist run amok.
There is a Dark Side to the entire history of Christianity.

How does it ever get stopped? Who can bring these persons into reality? Who is going to protect the children?"

If something like this happens in the US then the perpetrators would get jail time. How do we stop it in Nigeria? Well, we have the resources to address these kinds of problems in the US. Unfortunately, Nigeria has its issues.

[ZombieHorde]

77. Sad and disturbing. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

102. OK, this misinformed bullshit again--I'll try once more

Can you name me ONE Christian denomination (as opposed to free-lance fundies) that has advocated torturing and killing witches since the eighteenth century?

Remember--Christianity came to West Africa in the Victorian era, when all the European and American churches had given up on persecuting witches.

You may not know that African cultures, like everywhere else in the world, have INDIGENOUS beliefs that certain people practice black magic. Read a little anthropology if you don't believe me.

This is NOT Christianity as taught by the missionaries. This is a syncretistic cult founded by some free-lance loon who took a bit of Christianity and bit of indigenous beliefs and mixed them together.

What happens to these children is horrible, but some parents will use any excuse for child abuse (which is committed by parents all over the world, religious or not).

I'm probably wasting electrons here trying to confuse all you knee-jerk religion haters with facts, but this is the Nigerian equivalent of the free-lance fundie charlatan at work, not anything that the mainstream denominations would encourage or even accept.

[darkstar3]

115. Fred Phelps is a free-lance fundie too,

not to mention a disgusting excuse for a human being. He's still a Christian.

Jeffery Dahmer converted before he was executed. For a very short time, he was a Christian.

Let me put this another way: Were the 19 hijackers on 9/11 Muslim, or not?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. Phelps is not a Christian by Jesus' ethical standards

One can call one's self anything. There are people who call themselves Democrats who are really just liberal Republicans.

As far as Jeffery Dahmer is concerned, only God knows whether his conversion was genuine or just a con job. If it was genuine, including real remorse for what he did, our religion teaches that he is right before God.

Look, you guys absolutely BRISTLE when someone uses Stalin as an example of an evil atheist. You LOVE to point out that he spent time in seminary, as if this means that he was actually a closet Christian or something.

If religious people can't use Stalin or Pol Pot or Mao or anyone like that as an example of atheism, it is the worst kind of double standard to use Fred Phelps as an example of Christianity.

But why do I bother? You guys are having too much fun to have any sense of perspective.

[darkstar3]

144. The game you're playing is known as No True Scotsman

Fred Phelps believes in Jesus and takes his teachings from Bible. His interpretation of your holy text is radically different from yours, but that makes him no less Christian.

Here's a lesson in contrast for you. If you're feeling brave, visit a Catholic Church this Sunday, and make sure that it's an RCC. Then next Sunday visit a Pentecostal church. Note the differences between the services and the lessons preached, then compare it with your own congregation.

Having done this myself, I can tell you what you will find. There are radical differences between these versions of Christianity, and the Pentecostals even believe that due to these radical differences the Catholics are wrong and going to hell. But their beliefs and service structures are based entirely on their interpretation of the Bible, and they both believe in Jesus. Ergo, both Catholics and Pentecostals are Christians.

Just like Fred Phelps.

Turning the example to another faith so that we can BOTH look at it analytically, study a bit about the Muslim concept of Jihad. You'll find that the 19 hijackers who attacked us on 9/11 subscribed to one hard-line version of the idea of Jihad, which says that they must wage a holy war in the physical sense. But if you speak to most American Muslims, they will tell you that Jihad, as taught in the Qu'ran, is entirely an internal concept, meant to keep the believer pure and help them maintain their principles amidst adversity. Yet both of these believers call themselves Muslims, believe in only one God, know that Muhammad is his prophet, and pray to this God several times a day. Is one of them not a Muslim? Of course not. They are both Muslims, they simply disagree over one tenet of their faith.

As for your attempt at using Stalin as an example of an evil atheist, even you know that this is an incorrect equivocation. As has been proven many times over, Stalin and his contemporaries never killed anyone in the name of atheism, but rather killed people to crush dissent from their regimes. That is in NO WAY the same as killing a boy with acid because a verse in the Bible says to.

But of course, you already knew that, and so does Dinesh DeSouza, who is the most popular proponent of these lies against atheists. Just recently he moved on from Stalin and even tried to paint Hitler's prime motivation as atheism, which is another flat out lie. He propagates these lies in an attempt to discredit the atheists with whom he debates, in order to make it seem like he is the only person in the argument with a sense of morality and authority, and so do you, and so do the others on this board who harp on this point blindly.

[kwassa]

152. The game you are playing is misapplying a logical fallacy, one more time.

but you avoided dealing with it last time, I expect you will avoid it again this time, which seems to be your thing.

No True Scotsman only works if there is one agreed-upon definition of Christianity, which is, of course, your definition. You ignored the link I supplied last time that showed the wide and diverse definitions different people who describe themselves as Christian. Many of those definitions exclude other people who describe themselves as Christian. That kills No True Scotsman right off the bat. I would also point out the obvious challenge that being a Scotsman is a fact of birth, while being a Christian is a choice.

Like I said, you ignored this last time, I expect you to ignore it again, this time.

And merely citing a logical fallacy, even one correctly applied, is proof of precisely nothing, because it is, at best, an analogy, with nothing derived from the circumstances of the actual situation. No facts or knowledge are required.

and this statement of your is so stunning I have to quote it directly:

As has been proven many times over, Stalin and his contemporaries never killed anyone in the name of atheism, but rather killed people to crush dissent from their regimes.

You have made no attempt, nor has anyone else to offer any proof of this statement. Pretty shameless of you.

Stalin may not have killed people in the name of atheism, but the atheism that is part of his belief in Communism may have killed many. Claiming that he only killed to crush dissent, and no other reason, assumes that you can read his mind about his feelings about atheism, since you offer concrete external proof, as you have none.

Excuse me if I am not convinced of your telepathic abilities.

[darkstar3]

153. Lack of understanding on your part does not constitute a mistake on mine.

But I think understanding here is not the issue. Instead, you have attempted to twist the concept of the No True Scotsman fallacy so that it can't apply to your favorite arguments.

This doesn't surprise me, since what you are participating in is circular logic, and the NTS fallacy is circular logic, so you're right on par.

And citing a logical fallacy IS proof. Proof of the fact that your arguments don't hold water. But since you seem to abhor logic in general, I'm sure you don't care.

As for Stalin, we've been over this, and I won't continue to argue with a parrot. I find your ad hom and repetition tiring, revolting, and unbecoming of a Christian, progressive, or DUer.

ETA: NOW who's mistaking persistence for an argument? :eyes:

[kwassa]

158. If you could refute my NTS analysis, you would have done so.

But you haven't, because you can't. You only assert it to be so. You can't even point out the so-called circular logic, and have made no attempt to, in your most recent post.

As to Stalin, you have never addressed that either. You have no proof, and have never had proof, only assertion, once again.

Assertion is your stock-in-trade. It is not, however, proof.

[darkstar3]

159. Bwaaaaack, Stalin! Bwaaack, misapplied!

Polly want a cracker?

ETA: As much as you accuse people of lacking reading comprehension, I find it highly ironic that you can't understand the links I posted on what the NTS fallacy really is. But then, you haven't read or understood anything I've posted since we started arguing with each other. You don't understand fallacies, you don't understand the concept of burden of proof, and you don't understand argumentation. You are either willfully ignoring these things in order to maintain your own 'rightness', or you fail at reading comprehension and feel the need to project that failure onto others.

Either way, you're bad at this.

[kwassa]

160. Still no rebuttal

I pointed out why the NTS fallacy doesn't apply.

You can't point out in any way why I'm wrong, speaking of someone who doesn't understand argumentation. This doesn't consist of me reading links, which I've read, it consists of you being able, or even trying to point out a flaw in my argument. You are incapable of doing so, after the long exchanges we have had. I can only assume that you deflect and obfuscate because you can't find a flaw, and are too ego-involved to admit how you really don't know what you are talking about.

You invoke the word "fallacy" as if using the word means something. Without any attempt on your part to draw a connection between NTS and anything that I've actually said, you have done nothing in terms of argumentation at all.

You argue by assertion. You argue without proof. You don't support your assertions. The assertions are yours, the burden of proof is on you, and you can't do it.

[kwassa]

161. and here is a version of NTS that applies to atheists:

This is pretty much what you've been arguing

http://www.ziztur.com/2009/08/fallacious-no-true-scotsman.html

Arguer-A: No atheist would murder people.
Arguer-B: But atheist communists murdered 100 million people.
Arguer-A: Those people weren’t true atheists. True atheists would never murder 100 million people.

[darkstar3]

162. Oh, I'm sorry, Polly, are you still squawking? I have better things to do. n/t

[kwassa]

163. No, you don't, because you still responded to me. And still no rebuttal.

You really lost this argument on every conceivable level.

You are guilty of the fallacy you accuse me of!

Quite funny, actually.

[ZombieHorde]

122. "This is NOT Christianity as taught by the missionaries."

We don't really know what those missionaries are saying, but we do know what the Holy Bible says about witches.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. Yeah, I knew I was wasting electrons

Struggle4progress had some interesting FACTS about what is happening in Nigeria, but you guys don't care. No, any opportunity to bash religion. You're having too much fun being gleeful about how "horrible" Christianity supposedly is to actually look at the background behind this dreadful situation.

Do some reading on syncretism to get a little perspective.

Some of the people on this board typify my grandmother's Old Country proverb, "If you want to beat a dog you can always find a stick."

[ZombieHorde]

134. Those FACTS do not make any real point since violent exorcisms happen in the U.S.

We "don't care" because the common thread in exorcisms is not poor living conditions, the common thread is belief in demonic possession. If you remove the horrible conditions posted by Struggle4progress, you still get violent exorcisms, remove the belief in demonic possession, and violent exorcisms would be considerably less likely.

"If you want to beat a dog you can always find a stick."

The exorcists belong to a religion which has a main guide book called, Holy Bible. The Holy Bible states, thou shall not suffer a witch to live. The exorcists kill someone because they believe the victim is a witch.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

136. And the mainstream groups DO NOT do this

Really, you guys are as bad as the fundamentalists sometimes, taking one quote out of context and ignoring the fact that no mainstream Christian denomination has prosecuted witches for hundreds of years and that the last execution for witchcraft in the Western world took place in Scotland in 1720 or thereabout--long before any Christian missionaries went to West Africa.

Years ago, my Lutheran pastor dad somehow got onto the mailing list of a paper called "Christian Economics." It was pure Libertarian social Darwinism. How was that Christian, according to the paper? Well, the headline on their editorial page contained the quote: "Am I not allowed to do what I please with what is mine?"

That IS a Biblical quote--from the parable of the vineyard. However, the money in that parable is not actually money. It just stands for status before God. Those who are life-long believers have no greater status before God than a recent convert. That is the obvious intention of the parable and the standard interpretation.

But this loon comes along and takes it as a Biblical justification for economic Libertarianism and social Darwinism, because it fit what he already believed.

Nigerian loons latch upon the "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" passage because it fits the existing indigenous beliefs in witchcraft.

[ZombieHorde]

140. This is a strawman fallacy because I never claimed mainstream groups preformed violent exorcisms.

I claimed the Holy Bible says, thou shall not suffer a witch to live, and I claimed belief in demonic possession is the cause of violent exorcisms.

"Nigerian loons latch upon the "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" passage because it fits the existing indigenous beliefs in witchcraft."

A belief which is reinforced in the Holy Bible.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. So what? Why single out the Bible?

A loon can find reinforcement for his beliefs anywhere, as you know if you've ever dealt with any kind of fanatic.

[ZombieHorde]

145. The exorcists singled out the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible is where they got the idea to kill the "witch".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. Well, yes, but not the only source for that idea

Ever hear of "post justification"?

Get an idea and find an authority to back it up.

You're a political strongman who wants to be an absolute ruler? Seize upon the Marxist-Leninist idea of "the dictatorship of the proletariat" and declare yourself the only true representative of the proletariat.

You're a late nineteenth century or early twentieth century snob who wishes there were a way to get rid of disabled people--whom you find distasteful-- without actually killing them? Seize upon the relatively new science of genetics and declare that you can "perfect" the human race by sterilizing all people with disabilities or what you imagine to be disabilities. It's not the fault of genetics that a bunch of mostly wealthy people tried to "purify" the human race with their "science" of eugenics until Hitler's atrocities discredited the idea.

There's also the question of the parents' motivations for torturing their children. Normal parents don't do that and will do anything to prevent their children from being harmed. The Central American "right wing death squads" used to torture children to get their parents to talk. It was much more effective than torturing the parents themselves.

Can you imagine an American fundie preacher, no matter how nuts, getting masses of parents to torture their children? Maybe a few who were predisposed to child abuse anyway, but thousands?

I suspect that the difficult times that struggle4progress has described so knowledgeably in several posts have driven the whole society a bit crazy and desperate for a scapegoat.

Have you ever read Colin Turnbull's The Mountain People or Lewis Thomas's essay "The Iks" from The Lives of a Cell? Both of these describe a tribe in Uganda whose social system collapsed under severe environmental and ethnic pressure. They degenerated into a complete dog-eat-dog society, including nearly universal neglect and abuse of children and the elderly, which of course warped the next generation. No Bible needed.

[ZombieHorde]

150. The Holy Bible may not be the only source, but the Holy Bible is the source they claimed to use.

Some seemingly religiously motivated violence may be "post justification," but the church this guy belongs to teaches "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" as a literal command from God.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

154. So fuckin' what?

What I see is a bunch of atheists gleefully using this horrible situation as an opportunity to bash Christianity, often in ignorant ways.

What those guys in Nigeria are preaching is NOT any form of Christianity that mainstream Christians would recognize and it was NOT taught to them by the missionaries, who would have arrived about 100 years after Europe stopped having witch trials.

It's your old free-lance fundie with a poor education and an obsession.

[ZombieHorde]

155. "I see is a bunch of atheists gleefully using this horrible situation as an opportunity to bash..."

I have not bashed Christianity in this thread, I have argued belief in literal demonic possession is more likely to cause violent exorcisms than horrific living conditions.

"it was NOT taught to them by the missionaries"

If the missionaries taught them the Holy Bible is the literal word of God, and failed to mention "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" does not mean "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," then one could see the confusion.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

156. The missionaries in Nigeria were mostly Anglicans, and they've

never been into literalism. From the very beginning, the idea has been to base church doctrine on the "three-legged stool" of Scripture, tradition, and reason.

The part about making the kids drink caustic substances to exorcise demons is certainly not in the Bible. That sounds more like a traditional African practice.

And why are only children being accused? Back when witchcraft hysteria reined in Europe and the Americas, children were occasionally accused of witchcraft (one of the Salem "witches" was only four, but she was not hanged), but the vast majority of those accused were adults. Someone did a study of the Salem witch trials and discovered through court records that all the accused were considered socially unacceptable for some reason or were on one side of town property feud.

There's something else going on here besides a simple Bible verse. I'm not sure what.

[ZombieHorde]

157. ""three-legged stool" of Scripture, tradition, and reason"

That should probably be a topic for another thread since DUers have very diverse ideas concerning what is "reasonable".

"The part about making the kids drink caustic substances to exorcise demons is certainly not in the Bible."

I don't believe the Holy Bible says how witches should be executed, so the options seem open.

"There's something else going on here besides a simple Bible verse."

I agree, and I believe that something is belief in demonic possession coupled with a Biblical verse they claim to take literally.

[rd_kent]

165. So, you are saying that this is not "REAL" christianity? Oh, ok then...

[moobu2]

106. 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 state

Most Christian churches in Nigeria are involved in these atrocities. It isn't just an isolated incident.

Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire.


<snip>


At first glance, there's nothing unusual about the laughing, grubby kids playing hopscotch or reading from a tattered Dick and Jane book by the graffiti-scrawled cinderblock house. But this is where children like Abigail end up after being labeled witches by churches and abandoned or tortured by their families.

There's a scar above Jane's shy smile: her mother tried to saw off the top of her skull after a pastor denounced her and repeated exorcisms costing a total of $60 didn't cure her of witchcraft. Mary, 15, is just beginning to think about boys and how they will look at the scar tissue on her face caused when her mother doused her in caustic soda. Twelve-year-old Rachel dreamed of being a banker but instead was chained up by her pastor, starved and beaten with sticks repeatedly; her uncle paid him $60 for the exorcism.

Israel's cousin tried to bury him alive, Nwaekwa's father drove a nail through her head, and sweet-tempered Jerry — all knees, elbows and toothy grin — was beaten by his pastor, starved, made to eat cement and then set on fire by his father as his pastor's wife cheered it on.

<snip>


Just mentioning the name of a church is enough to frighten a group of bubbly children at the home.

"Please stop the pastors who hurt us," said Jerry quietly, touching the scars on his face. "I believe in God and God knows I am not a witch."

LA Times

[Sal316]

110. Blaming this on Christianity shows incredible ignorance.

So does quoting the mistranslated verse Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

The Hebrew word (chasaph) translated by King James as "Witch" is actually "poisoner". People within the church have opposed this translation since the 16th Century.

James was paranoid about witches and witchcraft, so it was translated that way to keep him happy.

What's even funnier is that y'all are quoting the KJV, which is used by the same idiots in NC as their justification for their Halloween book burning.

It's an astounding display of theological ignorance on par with the wackiest of fundies.

[darkstar3]

116. It's the wackiest of fundies we have a problem with

and the verse was quoted in the story, not pulled out of the rectums of the mean-old-atheist-religion-haters here on the board.

[ZombieHorde]

141. "People within the church have opposed this translation since the 16th Century."

Even if the original passage meant, "Make love, not war," the Holy Bible is published with the phrase, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

"What's even funnier is that y'all are quoting the KJV"

The KJV is a popular bible used, and believed in, by many Christians, and is therefore a legitimate translation to use when discussing the Holy Bible in a religious context, as opposed to a historical, or literary context.

[Chulanowa]

149. Okay, so it means poisoner.

“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire , or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD…”
-Deuteronomy 18:9-12a

And what is the usual punishment for this abomination before the LORD? Anyone? Anyone? Raise your hands if you know the answer please...

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
-Leviticus 20:27

Soooooo... Even if we take "witch" to mean "poisoner" that still leaves witchcraft, soothsaying, augrey, sorcery, spellcasting, mediums, necromancy, and spiritists. Let me guess, all of these mean something else like "People who make meatloaf on tuesdays"?

(And... "they shall stone them with stones? Well, you can't very well stone someone with cats, now can you?)

[struggle4progress]

114. Slavery is still alive in Nigeria

By Elor Nkereuwem

At least one million Nigerian children are sold into internal and external slavery annually ....

Professor Sola Ehindero, one of the nations’s leading experts on human trafficking, from the Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile Ife, and a consultant to the National Agency for the Prohibition of Traffic in Persons (NAPTIP), says the situation has spiralled out of control and is now poised to derail the national economy ...

Ijeoma Uduak, the Head of the Public Enlightenment unit of NAPTIP-Uyo Zonal office, says Akwa Ibom now ranks second to Edo in Child Trafficking within Nigeria. “The kind of trafficking that exists depends on the region or state.

For example, children from Akwa Ibom are trafficked for sexual exploitation and to be maids but children from Kano are trafficked to beg on the streets,” she says ...

http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/News/National/5061495-146/Slavery_is_still_alive_in_Nigeria.csp

[struggle4progress]

117. A haven for child traffickers

By Elor Nkereuwem

Akwa Ibom is the new poster child of state violence against its own children. It came into notoriety following the recent release of a video, showing the extreme violation of children's rights going on in the state ...

Traffickers are not ghosts. They are not some faceless evil men stealing children from their homes and trading them for wealth. They come as aunties, uncles, cousins and friends, extending love to distant relatives. They come as job consultants, promising lucrative employment in faraway lands. They come in form of chiefs, Obas, and religious leaders.

"We have had cases of religious leaders who traffic children to Saudi Arabia under the cover of pilgrimage. While there, they send these children to beg and then return home with foreign currency. We have also had chiefs who have trafficked children to Trinidad and Tobago under the guise of attending cultural festivals. They traffic these children for sexual exploitation," says Prof Ehindero bitterly ...

http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/News/National/5070014-146/A_haven_for_child_traffickers_.csp

[struggle4progress]

118. Nigeria: Trafficked Children - 'We Are Human, Not Commodities' (2008)

Olaolu Olusina
15 January 2008

... Shinny, as he is called, is 12 but slaves under the tropical sun in one of the pig farms scattered around the villages off the Lagos-Ibadan Expressway in South-west Nigeria. When this reporter sought to know where he came from, a dry smile was what he could offer. Upon further inquiries, however, he said in pidgin English: "I come from Akwa Ibom" ...

It will recalled that few years ago, the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) carried the story of one Felicia, an African (Nigerian) girl who was abducted into slave labour. She was being ferried from London to Italy when she smartly escaped from her abductors at the Heathrow Airport by disappearing into the toilet where she later asked for help. If Felicia was lucky to have escaped unhurt, 'Boy Adam' was not in any way ... When his remains were found dumped in River Thames in the United Kingdom. The London Metropolitan Police that investigated the murder discovered, through a forensic report, that he was a victim of child trafficking ...

http://allafrica.com/stories/200801160440.html