More Fundie Madness - Neo-Marxism in the Church?

[Sal316]

Red-Letter Christians: Neo-Marxism in the Church?

In many Bibles, all the words of Jesus are in red. There is nothing wrong with that. But something is wrong when Leftist Christians or so-called Christians want to mute the words of Paul and other writers and only follow Jesus' words. They call themselves "red-letter Christians."

<snip>

Red-letter Christians support unrestricted big government, sometimes equating the welfare state with the Kingdom of God.

This crowd loves to spend other people's money. They put down conservative Christianity when, in fact, it is conservative Christians who are first to step up to the plate whenever there is a disaster at home or abroad!

I can't even begin to tell you how absolutely revolting these statements are. It's people like Jan Markell and other theologically ignorant types like this that give Christianity a bad name.

[ZombieHorde]

1. When religion mixes with politics

religious views will almost always bow to political views. This is why we rarely, if ever, hear someone claim their political views differ from their god's political views.

For example: The New Testament is http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm">pro-slavery, but many Christians in the U.S. have very strong feelings against slavery and believe the Christian God and Jesus Christ agree with their anti-slavery view.

[struggle4progress]

3. Your claim that the New Testament is pro-slavery is, of course, complete nonsense:

the text, when read in the social context which produced it, is actually quite subversive

[ZombieHorde]

4. I provided a link which gives multiple examples of pro-slavery statements in the New Testament.

How do you interpret the following?

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

How about this one?

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

This one?

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

[struggle4progress]

6. You gave a link primarily based on the interpretations of one person in 1861

Much of it involved discussion of Philemon. In my view, one cannot fully understand Philemon without understanding the practice of debt-service in Philemon's culture: it simply will not do to try to carry a modern meaning of a translated word back two millennia, since something is lost in the translation and more is lost in our failure to understand the worldview of those who first saw the letter. Perhaps .. he was away from you .. so you might have him .. no longer as a debt-servant but .. a beloved .. brother is an invitation to radical reconciliation, suggesting the debt-holder should think of the debt-servant not as property but as a family member. The letter goes on to say welcome him as you would welcome me and then adds Prepare a guest room for me, expressing the hope that the letter writer will soon be able to visit Philemon. Thus, Paul indicates Philemon should treat his run-away debt-servant as a guest: it is a liberation strategy based on an appeal to conscience

[ZombieHorde]

9. Slavery was common when the Holy Bible was written.

If Jesus Christ and God were anti-slavery, then one may expect an anti-slavery passage or two; but not only are there are no anti-slavery passages, there are pro-slavery passages.

"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" = Obey and fear your slave master.

[struggle4progress]

13. If one is interested in reading old texts, one should try to read them in the large, rather

than picking out a translated sentence here or there. And one should make the effort to understand how the text would have sounded to readers and listeners at the time

The passage from Ephesians that you quote is followed immediately by And masters, treat your slaves in the same way -- a demand for equality and reciprocity in interpersonal relations that becomes completely invisible to you in your selective reading

And, again, the word "slave" here usually means something like "debt-servant," referring to a person who sold him/herself into bondage to a creditor in discharge of debt, often with the idea that the debt-servant would eventually earn enough to rebuy his/her freedom. In such cases, a common and natural social view of the time would have been that such a debt-servant had freely pledged his/her person as a guarantee against the debt and so owed the creditor obedience. The notion, however, that the creditor, as master of the debt-servant, had the same obligations towards the debt-servant that the debt-servant had to the creditor, may not have been so common and natural in that society. Nor is this a strained reading of early Christian culture: the Lord's prayer actually says Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those indebted to us

[ZombieHorde]

17. This is not about me, lets keep this civil. nt

"usually means something like "debt-servant," referring to a person who sold him/herself"

They sold their wives and children, and the New Testament supports this.

"the Lord's prayer actually says Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those indebted to us"

The Catholics use trespass, as opposed to debt, this line is about sin, not money.

[darkstar3]

5. You may think so

but that didn't stop white slaveholders in the antebellum south from using both the Old and New Testaments to defend their slaveholding as biblically sanctioned.

Who is right, and who is damned?

ETA: It also didn't stop civil rights opponents from using the Old and New Testaments to back their segregationist ideas.

[struggle4progress]

7. As Omar Khayyam said, "I myself am heaven and am hell." There is an old Zen koan

to the same effect: A samurai demanded the master prove to him the existence of Heaven and Hell, but the master merely sneered that the samurai would be too stupid to understand. The samurai, insulted, drew his sword and repeated the request, and the master said: "See! That's hell!" The samurai then put away his sword, and the master added: "And there's heaven"

The present moment is Eternal: it is always Now. People can make themselves and others miserable -- or to make themselves and others happy. It's a free choice: Heaven or Hell. Say what you like, but the difference is clear to honest folk of good will

[darkstar3]

8. I'm sorry, were you replying to me? n/t

[struggle4progress]

12. You want to ask "Who is damned?" Across many cultures, people have given the same

interpretation of "damned" and have regarded the answer as immediately obvious

[darkstar3]

18. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Or to put it another way, how does anything you said answer my question?

[Igel]

10. The problem is applying the text to ante-bellum America.

Different kinds of slavery were in mind.

In fact, there are two different kinds of slavery in the OT.

1. War booty. They're yours. They're property. That's that. The war had to be right, however: In some cases, all the people were to be destroyed; in others, captives were okay.

2. A fellow Israelite. They sell themselves into slavery to provide (a) money for paying off debts and (b) sustenance for themselves or their families. There were quirky laws for them, but at the beginning of the year of release they're released, and free to go back to their land (which would also revert to them); in any event, the debt that landed them in slavery is to be forgiven, so there's no more threat for them. In most cases, the quirkiness also stipulates that since they're brethren, treat them kindly.

NT revision: Treat them all well because they're also people, and if things were different instead of you owning them/retaining them they'd be owning you or retaining you. Moreover, before letting them sell themselves into slavery you have a Xian duty to help them out (however, I don't see any commandment telling Xians to beleaguer Caesar to levy a tax and give them money--that's neither here nor there, as far as proof-texting is concerned).

There's no provision for going to war just to get slaves, NT or OT, or (in the NT) for treating them like complete and total crap. In other words, the abolitionists and slavers were both just about equally guilty eisegesis.

[ZombieHorde]

11. The Holy Bible does not differentiate between different types of slavery.

"They sell themselves into slavery to provide (a) money for paying off debts and (b) sustenance for themselves or their families"

Not just themselves, but their wife and kids as well. Why would someone want to buy a child?

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

[struggle4progress]

14. Again, it is misleading to quote in isolation. Matthew 18:25 is part of a story that continues

... 'Be patient,' he begged, 'and I will repay everything.' The master had mercy on him and canceled the debt. But the servant went and grabbed a fellow servant who owed him a pittance and began to choke him, demanding 'Repay me what you owe!' The fellow begged him, 'Be patient and I will repay everything.' But he had the man imprisoned. So the master called him back and said, 'I canceled all your debt when you begged. Shouldn't you have mercy on your fellows as I had on you?' ...

[ZombieHorde]

16. Your post does not contradict mine. JC is still a proponent of slavery.

JC says to be cool to slaves, but he still supports slavery, a "nice slavery," which seems contradictory.

[Ian David]

2. It's the battle of the Christians vs the Xians.

Xians are all-cross and no-Christ.

[rd_kent]

15. There are PLENTY more people that give Christianity a bad name

Just about ALL christians do. The ones that use the religion for personal gain and the ones that condone it either through support or silence.