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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:28 AM
Original message
"Washed in the blood of the Lamb"
I was just at our local grocery thrift store run by Mennonites. They always play religious music, and I usually don't pay that close attention to the words, but the phrase in the title jumped out at me. I realize that Christian theology teaches that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb, paying for humankind's sins which started with Adam and Eve. But where in the world did the concept of washing in the blood of the lamb come from? In my study of Middle Eastern religions, starting with Egypt, I've never come across any sect whose priests ritually bathed in the blood of the creatures sacrificed. But I'm sure my study and research is not as extensive as many DUers here, which is why I pose this question:

Why do (some) Christians refer to being washed in the blood of the lamb, when ritual washing with blood of sacrificed animals wasn't practiced?

Thanks for your replies.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. If I didn't make it clear,
I have studied theology, not only Christian theology but the theology of many of the world's spiritual traditions. But in my studies (granted, only a year or two) I have not encountered any priests in the beni Israel or even the Baal or Egyptian traditions who performed this practice. I was hoping someone here would point me in the direction I would need to go to find out, if they didn't know themselves.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. It doesn't sound too appealing to me.
Whatever symbolic meaning it's supposed to have would be better served with a different image.
"God said to Abraham 'Kill me a son'-Abe said 'God you must be puttin' me on'."
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Nor to me
I was raised a liberal Methodist, and know the lamb symbology. Since Jesus literally washed people's feet, I could see a water analogy. Cleansing is a ritual part of most religions, but with the exception of the religions of the Americas and possibly some in Africa, I've not seen cleansing with blood--it is with water or milk.
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VAliberal Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. a quick and dirty response
Temple-based Judaism practiced ritual blood sacrifice of bulls, goats, doves. The mystery religions, like Mithraism, in the Hellenistic world did indeed engage in ritual washing with animal blood by initiates, along with concepts of virgin-born dying and rising god-men. Overlay those two perspectives on a Jewish revolutionary mystic, call him an historical Jesus, and voila - you get the theologies of the New Testament and later the Church.

Jesus is seen in orthodox theology as the god-man, the final sacrifice, whose blood shed during the crucifixion, becomes the universal blood offering to propitiate God.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Thank you!
Now it makes sense. Mithraism is not one of the religions I have studied. I'll check into that and its impact on Jewish mysticism.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. It's just the metaphor you've already noticed
ie that Jesus was a sacrifice, as were lambs at the time, so he is the 'sacrificial lamb'; and if that sacrifice means a person's sins are forgiven by their faith in Jesus, then they must have been 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' - thanks to the blood of Jesus, they are now spiritually 'clean'. Not a reference to any physical use of blood.
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. Actually, I was going to ask a similar question based on a country music song.
This is serious; I'm not joking. A currently playing country song is about a man and his early courtship with his (later) wife and then the courtship of his daughter. (I can't remember the name of the song or the artist right off the bat, but it's playing a lot on country music stations.) The singer asks: "Was he washed in the blood or just in the water?"

Being Jewish, I assumed it had something to do with a very fundamentalist version of baptism. From this post, it seems it is. Anybody enlighten me? Thanks.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. We may have heard the same song
it was definitely a country song and I stood in silent agony until it was over (I can't stand country music, and the words nauseated me).

I'm thinking that perhaps you are right. I was raised in a liberal Methodist church and nothing like this was mentioned. But I could see where a Baptist or Charistmatic church might equate full immersion baptism for something like this.

Being Jewish, have you ever heard of any of the ancient Jewish priests using blood for a ritual wash? Thank you in advance.
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. No, I didn't. I've studied a lot of Jewish history but that never came up.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. It comes from the Book of Revelations
The saints washed their robes and made them pure in the blood of the lamb.

The lamb is also symbolic of Jesus as in the pre-communion liturgy of the Catholic Mass: "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper."

The notion is that Jesus shed his blood so that we may have eternal life.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Thank you!
So it was from Revelations rather than an actual temple practice that the notion came from. Hmmm. I forget that the fundies rely on Revelations a lot--in my household (and my childhood church), Revelations was looked upon as a huge allegory about the Roman Empire.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Revelations reads like . . .
. . . the author was on a cocktail of hallucinogenic drugs. Your household probably had a pretty good read on it, though.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Actually, Mom told me,
"Revelations is the ranting of a madman."
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. Technically speaking, they ALL 'bathed in the blood' of sacrifice.
It was inevitable that the hands of the priest would be covered with blood when an animal was sacrificed, and EVERY religion practiced some form of animal sacrifice at the time. A very common image.

That doesn't mean they 'bathed' in the blood (though apparently some sects, such as the Mithraic religion favored by the Roman legionaires, supposedly did literally wash themselves with the blood of a sacrificial bull). It was a common enough image to the pagans that were being converted up to the 4th century that it was a way they could relate the new religion with the comortable practices of the old. It was, in fact, more familiar to the pagans than to the Jews the sect derived from, as there was no more Jewish sacrifice after the destruction of the temple in 71CE.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Thank you very much
you've given yet another slant on this. I do appreciate that you indicate it was more a pagan than Jewish practice--I was hung up on trying to figure out how blood washing was in the Jewish tradition.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. It could be a carryover from Roman idol worship--I think they did the same sort of thing, with bull
blood....They got baptised in it!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Oh my goodness!
I guess I should expand my research to include more ancient pagan religions--now that makes sense, because it would make Christianity a more "comfortable fit" for pagans--just as the virgin birth did. Thanks for your insight!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You're welcome. IIRC, they'd slaughter the bull and dump the blood
on the head of the person who was seeking redress or purification or something on those lines. There was also some ritual where they'd cut the bulls nuts off and the act was supposed to be representative of cutting one's own nuts off (rather a profound sacrifice, that!).

It's been many decades since I studied all that, so my memory is weak, but that seemed like a pretty unforgettable way of making a statement!
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. OK, here's a good academic source for you...
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 12:44 PM by onager
It could be a carryover from Roman idol worship--I think they did the same sort of thing, with bull blood....They got baptised in it!

Go down to Blockbuster and rent the HBO series Rome. They graphically show this. One of the Roman women stands under a bull, at an altar. The priest slaughters the bull and she is LITERALLY washed in the blood of the...er, bull.

FWIW, I grew up frequently hearing the song in church myself, since I was raised a Southern Baptist. I just found the image scary, especially when I was 7-8 years old.

I would run into scarier things, like the relatives who took me along to their services at the Fire-Baptized Pentecostal Holiness Church.

I know SoB's are usually mocked as a bunch of zany Fundies. But I gotta tell you, the Pentecostals made us look like a bunch of High-Church Anglicans.

Finally, I thought of that song frequently during the years I spent in Egypt. Before the two big Islamic feasts every year, the streets of Cairo and Alexandria were literally awash in the blood of sacrificed animals.

I was walking around Alexandria one day and had a sort of minor personal freak-out over that. Just one of those times all of us have, I guess, when we are overwhelmed and get a little panicky.

All of a sudden, it was just too much. The street was ankle-deep in blood, I was walking past piles of hacked-off animal limbs, and surrounded by animals about to be sacrificed, some hobbled by breaking their legs and bleating in pain.

FWIW, I was raised around/on farms and have helped slaughter pigs etc. But that was just...too much. Maybe I've lived in the city too long.

And the above is not meant as an attack on anybody's religious practices. As a Fundamentalist Atheist, when I attack your religion, you will know it. :-)
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Thank you for a thoughtful and respectful post
You were one of the people I was hoping would respond to this thread, as I knew you had lived in the Middle East. I really appreciate your insight. (and yes, the Pentecostals DO make S. Baptists look like High-Church Anglicans!)
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. The cult of Mithras did this.
Would slaughter a bull in an upper room with grating in the floor, while the initiate stood underneath and was showered with the blood as it fell through the floor. It was a very popular religion with Roman soldiers.
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Mr Generic Other Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. when researching the significance of lyrics
one must look at the author of the lyrics and the time and place the author worked.
this is where you might discover what was meant, by the words in a song, by the author and those who first sang the words.
i believe these lyrics can be attributed to elisha hoffman, american minister and song writer (1839-1929).
you will have to try to discover when he wrote these lyrics and for what occasion and you will have to try to discover what images he used and would have been understood by his audience. then you will know why "washed in the blood of the lamb" is significant.
i have not looked myself but i suspect that the lamb is christ and it is his blood that is cleansing, as some posters have already suggested, and i further suspect that this sort of baptism is an evangelical (born again) choice rather than the water baptisms of misguided roman catholics and many mainstream protestant sects.
hoffman was born into a preacher's family and at the beginning of the second great awakening which would have had great influence on his early development.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thank you for this information
I'm thinking the contemporary country music song takes the same ideas as Rev. Hoffman.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. It does sound sinister, don't it?
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 12:25 PM by juno jones
I guess that begs the question: "Why is christian mass based on a sacrament in which you take a god's transmuted blood and flesh?"

I can see the symbolic levels involved, but the blood imagery and idiom remains. And, I regret to say, modern christians are not well-practiced at symbolism and allegory. One might say 'they just don't get the joke'.

As for all the blood, perhaps Cartheginian Moloch worship comes closest to describing it, let us not forget the Meditteranean of those eras was pretty incestuous.

Your question makes me reflect on the ever present bloody Jesuses hanging in perpetual torment on walls all over the world. His life and 'resurrection' are barely celebrated in image, but his bloody, torturous death, hoo boy!

On edit: They keep yelling "You Bastards! You killed Jesus!" but they never seem to notice that he keeps coming back in the next episode. :D

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It is sad but true
that most Christians have no idea that Hebrew and Aramaic are, by their very nature, allegorical--and to take things literally is to perhaps miss the point. And yes, why the emphasis on Jesus's torture and crucifixion? The whole point of the story is resurrection! It must fill some primeval blood lust of some sort. The Hindus might say they are stuck in the rajas guna (one of anger and fighting and blood).
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
57. Eating Blood is Forbidden in Judasim
So is cannibalism. That makes it even stranger that a religion based on a Jewish holy man (one who said "not a jot or a tittle of the law shall be changed") would employ such a practice, even if it's only metaphorical.

The solution that makes most sense to me is that it was instituted by Paul specifically to antagonize the parts of the early Christian movement that adhered to Jewish law. Paul even seems to suggest that he got the practice directly from Jesus by a revelation.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Lamb is Jesus Christ.
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 12:28 PM by ZombieHorde
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%207;&version=9;

Revelation 7

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

------------------------

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/chapel/Sermon%20Files/2002_sermons/110302.htm

To be washed in the blood of the Lamb is to be washed by virtue of the blood of Jesus, that is, by virtue of his death.

-------------------

eta: Bold on number 14. The blood turned the robes white which suggests to me that the blood would not be a literal blood, but what do I know?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. How kind of you to find the quotation!
I, too, think the whole thing is allegorical--how else could blood be used to make robes white?

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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Hmm...
I just thought of a great name for a laundry detergent. :think:

--imm
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left is right Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. "washing in the blood of the lamb " is a concept
based in part on the night before the exodus. God's people were to paint (wash,if you will) their doors with the blood of a sacrificed lamb. The angel of death would then passover these houses, keeping the first born in those household safe. In the same way, Christ's blood sacrifice covers (on judgment day) those who willingly accept the cover of sacrificed blood. Interestingly, many experts believe that the symbol painted on the door was an X with an elongated right foot (as in a cross being carried through the streets of Jerusalem several thousand Passover's later.)
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I hadn't thought of the Exodus story this way before
Thank you for this information, especially about the mark on the doors in lamb's blood.
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks everyone for the informative replies. n/t
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Yunomi Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. Oh, man, that brings back memories.
My parents are agnostic, but my grandparents were Methodist so I was brought up with real half-assed religious belief. I thought of myself as Christian, when I (rarely) thought about it. One night I went with some friends to a "youth gathering" at a backwoods Baptist church. An old lady approached me and asked if I'd been baptized. "Yes ma'am, when I was a child". "Oh, that wasn't a real baptism," she yelled. "I meant HAVE YOU BEEN WASHED IN THE BLOOD?" At that point, I began backing towards the door, having never heard this phrase before and being genuinely alarmed. I made it out alive (and unwashed) and started on my long journey through Church of Satan, Wicca, Buddhism, Native American religions, better Buddhism... well, you get the picture. Now I'm a happy non-believer, and I always thank that old Baptist lady for scaring me into thinking about it.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. It is amazing who our teachers are
I'm so glad you are happy--what an interesting journey you've been on! May your road continue to be a happy one!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
35. For the best explanations of the role of sacrifice in religion
(and not just Christianity or ancient religions, but all religion), I'd advise you to read the works of Rene Girard. He's very prolific, but I think his best work on this topic is _Violence and the Sacred_. A good introduction to Girard (but still not light reading) is _Saved from Sacrifice: A Theology of the Cross_, by S. Mark Heim. Girard has real insights into the role sacrifice has played in the development of religion and culture in general.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Thanks for the author
and titles!
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
36. It came from Mithraism.
The main symbol of Mithraism shows Mithra riding a bull while holding a dagger to its throat. The bull represents spring, or rebirth. In the ritualistic sacrifices, bulls were killed and followers of Mithraism bathed in the blood. They also drank it and ate the flesh. They believed this was the way to rebirth.


Here's some interesting information:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/pmithra/

(snip)

It was believed that the partaking of the sacrament ensured eternal life, the immediate passing, after death, to the bosom of Mithras, there to tarry in bliss until the judgment day. On the judgment day the Mithraic keys of heaven would unlock the gates of Paradise for the reception of the faithful; whereupon all the unbaptized of the living and the dead would be annihilated upon the return of Mithras to earth. It was taught that, when a man died, he went before Mithras for judgment, and that at the end of the world Mithras would summon all the dead from their graves to face the last judgment. The wicked would be destroyed by fire, and the righteous would reign with Mithras forever.
~~

Hmmm, where have I heard a story like that before?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. How fascinating
Isn't it interesting how the thought of sacrifice and eternal life evolves from one faith to another. The problem with many conservative Christians is that they don't realize that their faith has changed and grown over the centuries.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. Well, when you worship this as the symbol of your religion...


What's a little lambs blood? Christianity is one of the bloodier religions.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. It is interesting that Christianity's teachings
of Jesus are not as bloody as his death, which appears to be all that many Christians think about. Personally, I always liked the Zoroastrian concepts of good thughts, good words, good deeds and purity myself.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. All religions were founded on death, violence and sacrifice.
They were all ways of limiting social violence to one sacrificial victim, or one group of victims within the larger community. All faiths found a sense of release/relief after a moment of communal violence, attributed these good feelings to "the gods", and looked for ways to replicate the feelings, usually through ritualized violence, like sacrifice or war. The violence, however, was often sublimated by retelling of the original violent episode in ways which mask the full violence, or blame the sacrificial victim for the violence. In the crucufixion, however, Christianity breaks the pattern, by telling the full story of the violence leading up to the sacrificial moment, and declaring the victim innocent. Christianity continued to teach that victims of violence are innocent, and that violence was against the will of God, until the conversion of Constantine, who married Christianity to the secular, militaristic Roman Empire. The message of challenging violence, rather than participating in it seems to have been lost, though there have always been pockets of pacifism in the Church--some religious orders in the Catholic tradition, Orthodox writers like Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, and Protestant movements like the Mennonites, Brethren and Quakers. There's a growing number of us trying to spread the message of standing against sacrificial violence in the Christian faith today.

Here are some sites of groups doing this work, with different emphases:

www.theravenfoundation.org
www.theologyandpeace.org
www. imitatio.com
http://www.uibk.ac.at/theol/cover/
http://www.arm.asso.fr/mimetique

Also, there have been pockets in other faiths challenging the victimization mechanism: the Sufis in Islam, the prophets in Judaism (whom Jesus quote all the time), and others. The difference is that Christianity is founded on a sacrificial moment, like all faiths, but names the violence.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Interesting take on things
I would agree that many religions are founded on sacrifice and violence, but would mention that Buddhism seems to be a tradition based not on sacrifice but rather moving away from the whole concept of sacrifice, saying instead the goal is to rise above desire as an individual. Of course, many say Buddhism isn't a religion; perhaps this is why.

I will say that Sufism stresses the greater Jihad, or struggle within one's own self, rather than some sacrifice or violence done in the name of a group or a god.

Haven't done much studying of the Tao--does it also mention sacrifice?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I know Girard mentions Buddhism in his _Things Hidden from the Foundation of the World_.
I'll have to look up the reference. I don't know of any reference to Taoism, but I do know that Girard considers any class system in a religion (like the caste system in Hinduism) a form of sacrifice, based on violence. So, I suspect he would be critical of the familial social structure which Lao Tze affirmed during his lifetime. I'll have to look up Girard's own thoughts, though.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Oh yeah, the caste system
based, I think,on the gunas. And then the whole Bagava Gita is about armies ready to do battle.....
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. All religions are bloody.
Christianity is just honest about it.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Perhaps better to say that all people are bloody (ie violent
when it suits them)and Christianity is honest about that. I think a lot of the hostility against Christianity is due in part to the challenge that people need help to do better. Most people would rather think that they are good enough as is and that they certainly need no one's help!
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. More that we don't need to be proselytized by flaming hypocrites.
The religion that has produced Ted Haggard, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Paul and Jan Crouch, Pope Alexander VI, Pope Pius XIII, and umpteen child-molesting priests is in no position to lecture anybody on their moral shortcomings.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Oh yeah, well if science and rationality is so great, what about
Dr. Benjamin Rush using the latest Science to bleed all those people to death during the Philadelphia yellow fever epidemic? What about the doctors who exiled all those poor people to Molokai even though leprosy isn't really that contagious? Where were all your scientists when so many people died in the Black Death, huh?



See how silly that argument is?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Exactly. All social groups engage in scapegoating--
choosing undesirables without whom they believe their societies will be better off. Or who, at least, are easily expendable. Religions were created to keep some limits on these scapegoating tendencies. Everyone, though, religious or otherwise, engages in these behaviors. Notice the frequent "the world would be better with religious people" meme here on DU. That's simple scapegoating of religious people. And there's no reason to think such feelings won't one day lead to violent actions.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. By naming all these individuals you feel okay about hating,
you engage in the scapegoating mechanism which religions were created to control.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Yes, I refuse to let a preacher tell me how SINFUL and awful I am.
Just because I am born.

You are right, Christianity is all about breaking a child's will, heaping unearned guilt and shame on people just for existing, so they will be scared little sheep who do what the preacher says (pray and donate money and time).

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Your hatred of Christians is an example of the scapegoating
mechanism. The question becomes what will happen as hatred such as yours is not limited by the cultural effects which religion has had on societies. It'll be interesting to see how scapegoating anger such as yours is acted out in a secular society.

I recommend you read the works of Rene Girard to understand the role of scapegoating in cultural development in general, and in the development of religions in particular.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. They've gotten in my face and hassled me for decades.
I avoid them at all costs.

However, it's hard to avoid them in our society. Most people assume that other people have the same beliefs that they do.


QUOTING George Carlin:
So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.
ENDQUOTE.


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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I was right the first time. All religions were founded on the need
to channel violence against one sacrificial victim. Then that sacrificial violence was ritualized, and VOILA! Religion.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I think religion can sometimes offer a means of channeling violence inherent
in humans. Sometimes the violence is channeled to a symbolic victim, sometimes a very real scapegoat. Very often, religion gives a cover for violence against the weak in society (Witch hunts, for example).
I don't think channeling violence is not the only impulse behind religion, nor even the most important. Ultimately, religion is an attempt to define, contact and sometime attempt to control the infinite and to explain the human condition.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-22-09 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
58. The Lamb of God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

Lamb of God is one of the titles given to Jesus in the New Testament and consequently in the Christian tradition. It refers to Jesus' role as a sacrifice atoning for the sins of man in Christian theology, harkening back to ancient Hebrew sacrifices in which a lamb was slain during the Passover. In the original Passover in Egypt, the blood was smeared on the door posts and lintel of each household (Exodus 12:1-28).

..................

The Biblical significance of the title is rendered in the context of earlier lamb symbolism. The blood of the paschal lamb of the Old Testament protects and saves the Israelites in Exodus 12. This link is made explicit in 1 Corinthians 5:7. For Paul, Christians are saved by Christ as their true paschal lamb.

The Old Testament also testifies to the earlier practice of sin offerings as a possible means of atonement. Lambs could be used in these offerings (e.g. Leviticus 4:32–34 and 5:6), and this link is strongly suggested by Gospel of John 1:29 and 1 Peter 1:19. Just as in Judaism sins could be forgiven through the offering and the pouring out of the blood of an "unblemished" lamb (cf. Lev 4:32), so Christians believe they can be freed from sin by the blood of Jesus, the unblemished Lamb of God.

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