Question: where in the Bible does it say not to drink?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

I was raised in the Methodist Church when drinking and smoking were frowned upon (my mother said that in her youth, dancing was frowned upon as well). Yesterday, on Fresh Air, Terry Gross did an interview with evangelical Christians who were at Princeton, and the woman interviewed said something about the Bible saying not to drink, so she didn't.

If memory serves, the Bible says that Jesus's first miracle was to turn water into wine at the wedding feast in Caana, and wine was served at the seder which is known as the Last Supper.

So where came this notion that the Bible prohibits alcohol?

[liberal N proud]

1. I know it does say that Jesus turned water into wine!

[Nobody]

8. That was his first miracle

And it wasn't some cheap crap, it was memorably good, since someone complimented the bridegroom on saving the best for last.

[H2O Man]

2. It doesn't.

However, in the story of Noah, it addresses the problems of drinking too much.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. but Noah wasn't punished for his drunkenness

only his son Ham, who saw his nakedness. I find that interesting.

If one talks to at least some of the evangelicals, though, they seem to take the position that moderation isn't what's needed but complete abstinance.

[LaurenG]

7. Re: Evangelicals

They are afraid of everything, they don't trust themselves and they certainly don't seem to know the real Jesus. They are mired in a little bitty world where anything they think or do will have them sent to hell. Yet they commit adultery and hurt other people in alarming ways. I think there is a psychiatric term for it but I can only think of religiosity. It's a way to keep control of everyone and yet they are "forgiven" because they interpret it that way in order to feel safe.

[Kolesar]

12. A broad brush

The African American Baptist churches would be described as evangelical, also. To their credit, they serve their laity with humility and purpose.

[LaurenG]

14. You're correct

Too broad a brush I am afraid. I meant, the DOBSONS, FALWELL"S FRISTS AND ROBERTSONS type.

[H2O Man]

16. That might raise two questions:

The first would be do we only avoid doing things we shouldn't because of the possibility of "punishment"? And the second would be, isn't having our children see us in a drunken state worse than other forms of punishment? I assume that most of us will agree that having our children see us "naked" in the case of being intoxicated means something other than being undressed.

[meow2u3]

28. That's because Noah didn't know how strong the wine was

He never realized how much a wallop that vino packed on him. He thought it was "regular" when it turned out to be "super strength."
Ham's son, Canaan, had no respect for his grandpa's privacy. He was actually laughing when he saw Grandpa in his birthday suit!

[Nikia]

4. Proverbs has a verse

I don't have a bible handy but it goes like this (or something like it): "Wine is the mocker and beer is the brawler."
Certainly the author as well as many others know that intoxication by alcohol can lead to bad things especially when it becomes a habit. I think this verse is saying that alcohol can be an unwise choice, not a deadly sin.

[Nikia]

6. I found the verse

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. In the rectory. eom.

[Kolesar]

9. Or behind the wheel ... eom

[farmbo]

10. On the contrary...see St Timothy (5: 23):

One of Paul's exhortations to Timothy:

‘No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities’ (5.23).

[punpirate]

11. Protestants may have come by...

... this notion from the splits caused during the Reformation. Wine was associated with the Catholic Church mass.

There were also huge, huge problems with alcoholism in both Europe and the colonies at the time of the Reformation and afterwards--the water was so bad in the cities, so full of cholera and diptheria and typhus everywhere (because of truly horrible sewage and water distribution systems) that the only safe thing to drink was alcohol. That history is part of what prompted the Temperance movement in this country--which was closely associated with Protestant churches.

But, if one looks at the Bible, particularly the New Testament, there's some tangential suggestion that wine figured prominently in the visions of the Apostles. Biblical historians have, at times, suggested that the vision of the Burning Bush was because they were all smashed, and that some Biblical texts in Aramaic suggest that Judas' confession to Jesus is written to imply that he's falling down drunk and feeling sorry for himself.

And it is in 1 Timothy that one should "Use a little wine for the sake of your stomach." :)

People walking through a supermarket today forget that much of the diet then was yeast-based--bread, cheese, wine or mead.

Cheers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Moses saw the burning bush, not the Apostles

:-)

But he may have been drunk. Who knows?

[punpirate]

26. You're right... up too late to remember...

... a book read twenty years ago.

I think I was probably thinking of the story of the Holy Ghost descending to the Apostles in their room, and their dashing around in the streets in their excitement.

[Mist]

13. I knew a Pentacostal once who insisted

that the word for "wine" in the bible really meant "grape juice" !

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. And my grad school friends who knew ancient Greek said that that was

nonsense. The word used clearly means "wine" and nothing else.

Besides, as my Lutheran pastor father said whenever he encountered a Scandinavian temperance type Lutheran, grapes are harvested in the fall. The Last Supper was a Passover seder, and Passover is in the spring. Since there was no refrigeration in ancient times, any "grape juice" would have been rather fermented by March or April.

[Mist]

27. People who believe that the biblical "wine" means

grape juice don't go in for that fancy learnin' !

[TalkingDog]

15. Jehovah sez "PAR-TAY!!!" according to Jeremiah 25:27

Jeremiah 25:27 "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit..."

[MemphisTiger]

17. Drunkenness is a sin, drinking is not

However, I've been known to flirt pretty close with that line. Seriously, I think the point of most denominations prohibiting it is that people can't control their drinking and your mind is supposed to stay clear for God. That's my impression anyway, so if you can hold your hooch and not get a buzz, you're okay. Also, the wine that was made in the day of Jesus was quite watered down. In today's term it would be 12 parts water to 1 part wine. At least that is what I've read. So the whole Jesus drank argument doesn't really hold, but the fact is that it was alcohol and the Bible doesn't say NO DRINKING.

[supernova]

18. If I'm not mistaken, the mainline protestant churches

were also aligned with the Temperance Movement in the 19th Century. So it would make sense that they would abstain from alchohol if they were exhorting everyone else to stop too.

I know the Baptists in this country have always been anti alchohol use. Not until my Dad was in his late 50s did he have an occassional creme de menthe. (I used to drink them too when I was nine. ;-) ) At our house this mostly consisted of creme de menthe over vanilla ice cream.

edit: No, the bible is not a big fan of teetotaling.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. ice cream toppings

My grandmother used creme de cocoa on her ice cream. One of her sisters was a fundamentalist and a teetotaller, but whe she would come and visit, they would have some of that "special syrup". After her sister left, Grandma would laugh.

The thing about a church forbidding something because some might overuse or abuse it would seem to take personal responsibility away from an individual. Besides, there are many things that people are addicted to that aren't mentioned in the Bible-eating, smoking, etc. One addiction that Jesus did address was the tendency for people who had wealth to want to hoard it; another is the tendency for people to judge. Funny, isn't it, that these two faults aren't as forbidden in some churches who forbid alcohol.

[TalkingDog]

20. The whole religion takes away personal responsibility.

That's the hook. God will take all your sins if you give them to him. All he asks in return is __________.

God will take care of you and bless you and make your life rich and fullfilling and all you have to do is abnegate your Free Will.

The whole service to others thing....well, that's just a suggestion.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Spirituality, on the other hand, demands it, I think

I know most about Sufi and Lakota ways, so I can speak best about them. In neither one are people recruited to that spiritual path; in fact, it is against Sufi practice. Although Sufis have guides, they are not people who are divine and who must be obeyed without question. Dervishes are Sufis who not only take responsibility for their own actions, but who see the actions of those actions, etc, etc, and take responsibility for all (no way am I on that level, btw!:)).

In Lakota ceremony, you sweat, fast, or Sundance not for yourself but for your people, however you wish to define that. A person who goes into one of these sacred ordeals without proper preparation, mentally, physically, and spiritually, can be in a world of hurt. One who is prepared is sustained by the network of supporters who help take part and who realize that all things are sacred and that it is our trust to be responsible about our actions.

[supernova]

29. I agree with you

An integral part of being spiritual, no matter the particular path you choose to follow, is realizig that we are all connected.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. The Catholics, Episcopalians, and German Lutherans

were never into temperance.

The temperance advocates disdainfully referred to the Episcopalians as "Whiskeypalians."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. The Bible frowns on drunkenness but not on alcohol per se

Throughout most of European history, the normal beverage was diluted wine or ale, since people had figured out that drinking water was dangerous. The Puritans in Massachusetts brewed ale.

The temperance movement arose in the 19th century with the industrialization of America. There were no laws governing alcohol, booze was cheap, life was hard (72-hour work weeks were not uncommon) and overworked, underpaid factory workers easily slipped into alcoholism or at least problem drinking.

Women in particular suffered when their husbands spent their money in bars and became violent, so temperance became kind of a sideline for the women's rights movement. Not knowing about the causes of alcoholism, the crusaders made it into a moral issue, and the Methodist and Baptist churches, which had the largest Protestant presence in the slums, began preaching abstinence from alcohol, considering it the key to a better life. People signed pledges never to drink, and young women vowed to reject any man who drank. Children were recruited into the so-called Cold Water Army. The movement spread along with the women's rights movements and eventually became powerful enough to get a Constitutional amendment passed.

So basically, churches that were active in the slums saw the problems caused by alcoholism and began incorporating abstinence into their sermons.

[supernova]

30. Husbands' aocoholism - Vague memory of a family story

One of my mothers' grandmothers was married to a guy who spent his working life in the coal mines of western, PA.

This was her third husband I believe.

Anyway, every payday, he could be found in the town saloon, practically drinking up his paycheck and playing a really good barrelhouse piano.

It was a common occurrance for her to to to the saloon to retrieve him before he spent all that weeks' pay.

I'm sure it must have been extremely hard.

This would have been the 19teens.