Monotheism destroys the Holy of the Holies....

[mtf80123]

It is the ignorance and destruction of the Mind.

[Occam Bandage]

1. I don't see how that follows.

What makes monotheism more ignorant than, say, polytheism?

[anonymous171]

2. Pantheism is actually to blame. nt

[Occam Bandage]

3. I tend to blame humanity's stubborn refusal

to mold its nature to that of artificial philosophical models of itself. If only humans were more like humans said humans were, things would be much nicer.

[nomorenomore08]

6. I think "artificial" is the key word there. If said models truly reflected human nature, they

wouldn't be "artificial." Expecting people to shoehorn themselves into lofty ideals of thought and behavior is unrealistic to say the least.

This is just a wee bit off-topic, and not directed at you personally, but I find that more often than not, attempting to force people to be "perfect" results in needless suffering and death - see Pol Pot for a good example. "Violent Pacification," as the D.R.I. song would have it.

[mtf80123]

7. Yet perfection....

Is only a state of mind.

[BoneDaddy]

12. Howso?

Not that I disagree or agree, I am just as curious about this statement as the OP.

[TTUBatfan2008]

4. I disagree...

I feel money destroys the Holy of the Holies: Integrity. I'll take an ignorant or developmentally disabled person with strong integrity over a genius crook.

[mtf80123]

8. In this Reality it has value...

but after death... monetary wealth has no value at all.

[ben_jenne]

5. Whoa, just flashed back to freshman dorm in college there.

What a rush, it was 40 some years ago.

[dorkulon]

9. Oooh, crypto-haiku-as-wisdom time!

Can I play?

The epistemology of materialism
Necessitates didactic eclecticism
But lacks metaphysical vigor

[mtf80123]

10. Exactly...!

[cali]

11. stupid one liner with no explication

and I can name a long list of people who's minds were clearly not destroyed by monotheism. Not to mention the very religious implications of the phrase "Holy of the Holies". Amusing.

Were the minds of these people destroyed?

MLK
William Sloan Coffin
Thomas Merton
RFK
Paul Tillich
Teilhard de Chardin
Rumi

Those folks are just those who came immediately to mind. There are many, many more.

It's beyond idiotic and very unprogressive to make the moron statement you just made.

[mtf80123]

13. When we die...

does it really matter what anyone has said?

[cali]

14. um, what does that have to do with your claim that monotheism

destroys the mind? Absolutely nothing. Either defend your theory or don't, but red herrings only make the whole thing stupider.

[mtf80123]

16. Monotheism is a dead end....

Once your are there... you are trapped in a guilded cage. The Journey is over.

[cali]

18. speech in faux platitudes is not only a bore and intellectually bankrupt

it actually does show a trapped and limited mind.

[mtf80123]

22. because I made fun of your Ice Cream thread?

[cali]

26. uh, no. Ididn't even realize that was you.

it's because I really dislike stupid and I dislike teh stupid tarted up in pretentious clothing even more.

[mtf80123]

31. "the"

fixed it for you.

[Silent3]

63. You moran!

Don't you realize that "teh stupid" instead of the correctly spelled (but still deliberately awkward) "the stupid" is an internet in-joke? Like "moran" instead of "moron"?

[Occam Bandage]

65. Welcome to the internet.

[timtom]

39. Would you by any means mean, "gilded cage"?

[mtf80123]

21. And what is Mind?

Is it just a globby mess of grey matter that will eventually disintigrate... or, is it a collection of molecules and atoms bound by atomic forces that can never be destroyed?

[cali]

28. Neither. Those may be the forces behind "mind"

but there are actually very decent explanations of mind. Try reading some
Dennett.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_dennet

[TexasObserver]

15. All worship is self worship.

People choose a worldview that fits them, then wrongly conclude THEIR answer is THE answer.

Makes no difference what that worldview is, either. Hubris drives religious thought. People worship their own biases.

[mtf80123]

17. What happens to those of us who...

worship no one or any thing, yet still consider ourselfs spiritual beings?

[TexasObserver]

20. you're on the right path

Spiritualism is inherent, and needs no religion.

Religion is the enemy of spiritualism. Religion is a man made contrivance, an attempt to bottle and control spiritualism by those who lack any sense of it.

[cali]

29. Tell it to MLK

or William Sloan Coffin. Or literally thousands of others. An enlightened state of being, or enhanced consciousness or whatever you wish to call it can be attained through the vehicle of organized religion- or outside it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. What do you mean by 'spiritualism'?

I assume not "talking to dead people". But do you mean you believe in an immortal personal soul, or in a universal soul - among humans, all animals, all life in the universe? In what way would this 'spirit' be tied together, and with the bodies it inhabits? And so on.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. What do you mean by a 'spiritual being'? (nt)

[cali]

19. oh codswallop

for some religious thought and contemplation is mind expansive not mind limiting and certainly isn't entirely or even chiefly about "self-worship".

MLK, anyone?

[mtf80123]

23. Faith is limiting...

Mind is limitless.

[cali]

25. speaking and "thinking" in shallow one liners is mind destroying

as you are so ably demontstrating. The unsupported claims you're making are patently ridiculous and easily refuted by figures who we know were/are believers. They used/use faith as a tool to break barriers, to go beyond the limits of daily life.

[mtf80123]

30. Some did break barriers.... I agree

and many did wonderous things. But their views of the Universe and their place in it were / are outdated.

We should look at our own mind for inspiration. Mind is the center of the Universe and all that is Holy... not superstitious snake charmers bilking Grandma of her retirement account.

[cali]

33. tosh.

something that is timeless is not outdated. William Sloan Coffin just recently died. There are certainly people living now who are attaining an expanded consciousness through religion and religious practices- both monothesistic and other.

Your cliches and inability to articulate a cogent argument limit your ability to discuss any philosophical question. Not that I don't enjoy destroying your paper thin claims.

[mtf80123]

36. What is timeless?

Will the memories of William S. Coffin remain in the minds of the inhabitants of this world 5 billion years from now when the Earth is swallowed by the Sun? Will the memory of cali? No... all will be forgotten... destroyed... transformed... of no significance or importance. Everything is "impermanent".

That beautiful and valuable vase you hold dear and have had passed from generation to generation will one day crack, break and disolve back into sand. Once again becoming no more valuable than the grain of sand sitting next to it.

[cali]

42. what is timeless?

the expressions that and reiterations of those minds that have attained enlightenment of expanded consciousness or however you care to phrase it Coffin? I don't know. I chose him as an example because he's someone I've met, conversed with and admired. But it really isn't about whether someone achieves renown or whether they live and toil and die in obscurity. It isn't about whether they are or are not religious. Anyway, it's absurd to speculate that humans will be alive 5 billion years from now. Species don't exist for that length of time, and it's quite likely, based on science, that we won't be a terribly long lived species.

Oh, and my teacher Chogyam Trunpa Rinpoche would roll on the floor laughing at your bullshit.

[TexasObserver]

32. You're wasting your time arguing with those who worship religion.

They're trapped in their own minds, prisoners of limited vision, as this thread amply demonstrates. Intelligence and religiosity run in different directions.

[cali]

34. lol. I'm a non-religious buddhist. I was brought up by

a brilliant atheist and an agnostic. In my childhood home we worshipped books and intellectual curiosity. The last thing I do is worship religion.

Try again, genius.

[mtf80123]

40. Then you should know better.

[TexasObserver]

41. For The Win!!

[cali]

44. bwahahaha.

what would the likes of you know?

There's no cure for terminal stupidity. As you make so vividly clear.

[cali]

43. you know nothing about it. that much is clear.

As I said, my teacher, Chogyam Trungpa would roll on the floor with laughter at your silliness.

[mtf80123]

48. I highly doubt that....

I have read his books and have great respect for him. Not my problem that you do not understand the Holy Dharma.

[cali]

52. He was my teacher at Karme Choling.

I lived there- though not until after his death. That's my Sangha. And if there's anything he wasn't, it was a pretentious little poseur. He was an earthy, often drunk and frequently rude man, who seemingly paradoxically, possessed great knowledge. There's a reason why Naropa is so named. He loved that piece of wisdom.

[mtf80123]

54. He was a great Man...

I wonder what he would say about your "name calling". I suspect he would not be very pleased with you.

[cali]

57. It wou;ldn't phase him at all, is my educated guess

and he was also a very complex human being who could be, well, I won't go further than that.

[TexasObserver]

61. Yes, one would expect those lessons to show up somewhere in conduct.

Wouldn't they?

That's part of the problem with the religiously dogmatic. They think studying religion makes them spiritual. They go through the motions, but never get the point, as your discussion with your detractor well proves. That's why I never address that person. Every exchange with them produces increasingly bitter, inane comments from such poster, until they meltdown entirely, as seen in this thread. Angry people often find a happy home in religion, in spite of never achieving any sense of spiritualism.

[Silent3]

69. Exactly how "spiritual" is it...

...to hold yourself out as being oh-so-much-more-spiritual than other people?

They think studying religion makes them spiritual. They go through the motions, but never get the point, as your discussion with your detractor well proves.

It's a good thing those silly, unenlightened people have this kind of smug condescension from the truly spiritual like you, who I assume does manage to "get the point".

As an atheist and a skeptic I find most of this conversation to be of similar import to two bald men arguing over a comb. That doesn't stop me, however, from finding the attitude you convey in this conversation to be objectionably arrogant and far from anything I'd call "spiritual" in a positive sense of that word.

[TexasObserver]

35. deleted

[cali]

37. the evidence, if not proof, is that you're intellectually bankrupt and

limited do to your own prejudices.

[LanternWaste]

24. delete

delete

[mtf80123]

27. Dogma

1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

I prescribe to no Dogma. I have no personal "God". Yet I do believe that we are transformed in a universal sense.

Less than 100 years ago, it was thought that our Universe was no larger than the very Galaxy we inhabit... yet we now know that is not true.

[TexasObserver]

38. Yes, the dogma of the self deluded is ever present in these discussions.

And religious apologists always rail the loudest when their ox is gored.

Notice also the compulsiveness of their obsession. Sane people can accept that others disagree with them.

[cali]

46. dogma, darling, is not limited to religion

and some of us actually care to think, to examine and to ponder. I'd suggest you try all of the above, but I don't believe in casting pearls.

[LanternWaste]

50. As do those who gore the ox...

"always rail the loudest..."

As do those who gore the ox...

On edit
"Sane people can accept that others disagree with them."
I see no one poster who denies that-- anyone in particular?

[LanternWaste]

49. Ans yet you still maintain an...

Ans yet you still maintain an Absolutism worthy of many Sunday morning televangelist... an absolutism which seems to be the very part and parcel of dogmatism.

[cali]

53. and that is what's most amusing about this pretentious crap

well said.

[mtf80123]

55. Not very Buddhist of you...

somehow I would think HH Chogyam Trungpa would not acknowledge your training.

[TexasObserver]

56. Yes, living beliefs is very different from mouthing beliefs.

It's hard to take seriously a hyperventilating Buddhist, isn't it? They miss the point of Buddhism, which has some attractive themes. Of course, there's still all that bowing and scaping at the sight of "holy men."

[cali]

59. Do you know anything about Chogyam Trungpa or Crazy Wisdom?

you clearly know absolutely nothing about it. but it's funny to see you blather on in ignorance.

[cali]

58. Naropa, ring a bell? Crazy wisdom?

you couldn't be more wrong.

[TexasObserver]

51. Where is Samuel Jackson when you need him?

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

[TayTay]

45. And the cow jumping over the moon

ignores both the safety laws governing proper use of livestock and
zoning violations about methane gas use.

ponderable, I think

[cali]

47. lol. great response to a used kleenex OP

[ZombieHorde]

60. I would like to agree, but I can't. nt

[EvolveOrConvolve]

62. What a waste of a post - electronic masturbation at its finest

Judging from your other posts in this thread, it's par for the course.

If you're going to make an assertion, provide empirical evidence to support your claim. Otherwise, take your precious mind somewhere that doesn't require actual debate.

[mtf80123]

70. No assertion here.

Do we ever physically make contact with an object in this reality? Or is it only perception?

Nuclear forces of the Universe prevent us (anything and everything) from ever making physical contact with anything else.

Someone jumping from the heights of a tall building... we perceive as a bloody mess on the ground. To us it is reality... it is actually nothing more than the strong and weak nuclear forces repelling each other. The mass / energy repelling each other. Think of two magnets of oposing forces. Energy floats and is not destroyed. Just transformed.

The only reality that exists is that which resides in our own minds.

[rrneck]

71. It's interesting actually

that you show a level of compartmentalized thinking usually only found in fundamentalist christians. You'd fit right in at a church in Appalachia praying with snakes.

Spirituality is half the human experience. Physical reality is the other half. Elliptical appeals to the transcendent mind to avoid the efficacy of your beliefs is disingenuous. And a little bit annoying.

[Silent3]

64. I wish I could tell for sure...

...if you were serious, or you're just pulling our collective leg to see how much effort we'll waste responding to this drivel.

[saltpoint]

68. To the notion that 'separate' is a component of 'holy,' no basis for

the claim can be made that 'monotheism' is its enemy.

Then, to the notion that 'secret' or 'occult' is relational to 'holy,' the stronger argument, IMO, holds that this property attends the spiritual in one or another form in one or another degree.

[mtf80123]

72. Before any spiritual light from the innermost recesses...

of our being can break through into the realms of our mind, much has to be accomplished. Impurities have to be removed, distortions have to be straightened out, the vehicles have to be harmonized. It is only in such a prepared mind, freed from these ordinary defects, that the light of higher knowledge can manifest.

[Jeffersonian Dem]

73. The problem is not monotheism, but men who lust for power, wealth and domain in the name of God

The problem is not monotheism, or belief that there is but one God. The problem is that precious few human beings have actually been enlightened and understood what God is.

The problem is that men have used and still use isolated words and phrases from their religious scriptures to justify their bigotry, theocratic imposition, and lust for personal power, wealth and domain in the world.

As Albert Einstein wrote: "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us 'universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness."

That “whole” is God. God is One, the omnipresent Supreme Consciousness, the Divine Light-Energy-Source of our existence, the primordial “Word” that is made flesh in all of us.

That's why the great Maharishi Mahesh Yogi taught that: "All life emerges from, and is sustained in, consciousness. The whole universe is the expression of consciousness. The reality of the universe is one unbounded ocean of consciousness in motion."

However you perceive or conceive of Deity, there is but one Divine Holy One, which is God. Whatever you call it, and whether you regard it as one or many or all, it is still God. Every thing originated from and came out of the One, and every thing returns to the One that is God, the Source/Creator.

This is consistent with what the Christ Jesus said according to the ignored Gospel of Mary Magdalene, in which Jesus is quoted as saying that "All natures, all formed things, all creatures exist in and with one another and will again be resolved into their own roots, because the nature of matter is dissolved into the roots of its nature alone."

This is very similar to the Taoist concept of Oneness which states that "All things derive their life from it (Tao), All things return to it, and it contains them."

Even Hinduism, which some people mistakenly think is a polytheistic religion with many "gods," correctly holds that there is only one causal Source called Brahman (God), which manifests itself in multiple forms or characteristics.

The great Meher Baba said: "There is no creature which is not destined for the supreme goal, as there is no river which is not winding its way toward the sea. But only in the human form can consciousness be so developed that it is capable of expressing the True Self, which is the Self of All."

However, the True Self is not our separate self-conscious ego. It’s our inner soul and spirit, which knows its Oneness with God and all humanity. That is why the current Dalai Lama has said, "The message we hear from all sources of truth is clear: We are all one. That is a message the human race has largely ignored. Forgetting this truth is the only cause of hatred and war."

All the above was quoted from the works of David J. Nunson, who has written under a different pen name.

[Strong Atheist]

74. What exactly does this mean? I hate poetry for the same reason... nt.

[Jeffersonian Dem]

75. I think

Those who hate monotheism actually hate "religious" bigotry and theocratic imposition.

Monotheism is not the problem, because God is actually The One, the Supreme Universal Consciousness, the Divine Light-Energy-Source of our existence, and the unspeakable primordial "Word" that was in the beginning and is made flesh in all of us.

In other words, the problem is power-hungry people who are ignorant of what God really is. They want to rule in the name of their religion, like Bush did and like Osama bin Laden does, when they actually betray God and the true purpose of their religion.

[Strong Atheist]

76. Actually, I was trying to figure out what in the *&@#%* the OP

meant... it was deliberately unclear, which is what I loathe about poetry; deliberately unclear pretentious bull****. Say what you *%&#* mean, and say it clearly... (the OP and poets, not you...)

[Jeffersonian Dem]

77. Okay. I know what you mean.

When you say "deliberately unclear pretentious bull****" I know what you mean.

Some poetry, and that includes the poetic lyrics in some songs, is certain designed to make the reader or listener think the writer has great wisdom and expresses it very cleverly, when it is actually pretentious.

On the other hand, some poetry and some song lyrics, while ambiguous, do indeed express brilliant wisdom. So I wouldn't generalize too much.

[Strong Atheist]

78. I can and do generalize.

x(

I never did like poetry. Then, in my freshman year of college, I got a prof who was a real f****** a******. I HAD to take the required freshman english course. Among other things that he inflicted on us that year was this "gem":

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/wcw-red-wheel.html

We spent TWO WHOLE CLASS PERIODS discussing the "deep meaning" of this 16 WORD piece of shit, at an hour per class. I was livid. Needless to say, my dislike of poetry went to intense hatred after that...

Poetry is ALMOST all B.S., disguised as "great thinking"... I have seen very little poetry that I like, with a few notable expections... (CP is good...)

[Jeffersonian Dem]

79. How 'bout Dylan?

And who's "CP"?

[Strong Atheist]

80. CaliforniaPeggy, a nice member here. While I still have NO CLUE what the original OP

was SUPPOSED to be about, I know that our subject creep has diverged far from whatever it was. If you want to continue, I would suggest starting a thread in the Lounge. Oh, and Welcome to Du, once again! :hi:

[redqueen]

81. Religion destroys spirituality.

It is perversion made sacrosanct.




Just wanted to do one of those for myself. :)