explain this flood story much older then the Hebrew story of the flood...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

watch the video and tell me what you think about the looting of Iraq'a museums and the 80,000 cunieforms(tablets) still missing.

http://www.ancientx.com/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=2&z=1

The Flood Tablet, relating part of the Epic of Gilgamesh
Neo-Assyrian, 7th century BC
From Nineveh, northern Iraq

http://www.xfacts.com/iraq2003/flood_tablet_files/ps208041.jpe

The most famous cuneiform tablet from Mesopotamia
The Assyrian King Ashurbanipal (reigned 669-631 BC) collected a library of thousands of cuneiform tablets in his palace at Nineveh. They recorded myths, legends and scientific information. Among them was the story of the adventures of Gilgamesh, a legendary ruler of Uruk, and his search for immortality. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a huge work, the longest literary work in Akkadian (the language of Babylonia and Assyria). It was widely known, with versions also found at Hattusas, capital of the Hittites, and Megiddo in the Levant.

This, the eleventh tablet of the epic, describes the meeting of Gilgamesh with Utnapishtim. Like Noah in the Hebrew Bible, Utnapishtim had been forewarned of a plan by the gods to send a great flood. He built a boat and loaded it with everything he could find. Utnapishtim survived the flood for six days while mankind was destroyed, before landing on a mountain called Nimush. He released a dove and a swallow but they did not find dry land to rest on, and returned. Finally a raven that he released did not return, showing that the waters must have receded.

This Assyrian version of the Old Testament flood story was identified in 1872 by George Smith, an assistant in The British Museum. On reading the text he


Length: 15.24 cm
Width: 13.33 cm
Thickness: 3.17 cm

Excavated by A.H. Layard

[democracyindanger]

1. Many ancient cultures have a flood legend

The Mayans had one, and the Scandinavians, too.

[Warpy]

2. I've always wondered if those stories were about the flooding

of the continental shelf at the end of the last ice age.

[democracyindanger]

5. that's a good possibility

[Dorian Gray]

26. True, that

As for the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Biblical Ark story, some say that perhaps there was a flood in that region that became folklore.

I love the Epic of Gilgamesh. It's fascinating reading, and there are other stories in the epic that mirror Greek mythology and biblical lore. Archetypical stories, and it is fascinating.

[hector459]

3. Some scholars say the Hebrew "Old Testament" uses many stories

of ancient peoples as their Pentateuch. It is a known fact that these stories pre-dated the stories in the Genesis as did the concept of "one God" (monotheism) which actually originated in Egypt and was taken from there by Moses.

You usually get zapped for even mentioning this to Christians or Jews but...history speaks for itsself.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. Abraham is an Iraqi...he was from Ur...even Robert Michner's....

book "The Source" tells this...so why not that he repeated these same stories

[ElsewheresDaughter]

9. how do the flat earthers (fundies) explain this one from 30,000 BC.......

Venus of Willendorf, Museum of Natural History, Vienna, 30,000BC

When first discovered the Venus of Willendorf was thought to date to approximately 15,000 to 10,000 BCE, or more or less to the same period as the cave paintings at Lascaux in France. In the 1970s the date was revised back to 25,000-20,000 BCE, and then in the 1980s it was revised again to c. 30,000-25,000 BCE A study published in 1990 of the stratigraphic sequence of the nine superimposed archaeological layers comprising the Willendorf deposit, however, now indicates a date for the Venus of Willendorf of around 24,000-22,000 BCE.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. Well,

In a lot of cases, they'd claim that it must be a fake, because it originates thousands of years before the creation of the universe...

[MountainLaurel]

19. Same thing they say

About dinosaur bones:

That Satan put those specimens there to test Christians.

:wtf: :eyes: :rofl:

[grumpy old fart]

24. Yep, that all knowing God sure loves to play games....

what a puckish fella!

[msongs]

4. Jews co-opted previous legends, christians id the same to accomodate...

the myths of both religions existed before both judaism and christianity. the christians especially borrowed, stole, or reworked previous ideas to make their religion more palatable to various non christian groups like pagans, northern european tribes of various sorts, etc. believe it or not, yule logs, winter solistice (dating of xmas), easter (the coming of spring), reseurrection, all that stuff pre dated the life of the jesus character.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

Is it not funny how all those biblical type miracles and events stopped cold after the founding of the xtian religion and its multitude of true christianities where all other versions are false.

[WhiteTara]

6. The bible lifted stories from everywhere

The birth of Jesus is a retold tale of Isis and Osiris, the resurrection is the retold story of Innana and Her voluntary descent into the underworld (don't forget they had to kill Jesus before he made the same descent). The theft of the beginning stories of civilization are a blow to all humanity. May the pigs all receive their just rewards.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. The Tree of Life and Ishtar (Holy Spirit ) .....

http://www.zyworld.com/Assyrian/Assyrian%20sacred%20tree%20of%20life.htm

The Assyrian concept of God



The Assyrian concept of God, which defined Assur (Ashur) – "the only, universal God" – as "the totality of god". Assur himself was beyond human comprehension. Man could know him only through his powers pervading and ruling the universe, which, though emanating from a single source, appeared to man as separate and were accordingly hypostatized as different gods.

The idea of God as "the sum total of gods" is attested in various parts of the ancient Near East already in the 6th c BC, and later in several religions. It certainly also was part and parcel of first-millennium BC Jewish monotheism, as shown by the biblical designation of "God," elohim, which literally means "gods".

The concept of god seated on his throne, presiding over and conversing with a heavenly council or court – not only recur in most major biblical prophets and Job. But in later Jewish and Christian traditions as well. The fundamental unity of all divine powers is, however, basic to Judaism, and is encoded in its central symbol, the menorah, now well established as derived from the Ancient Near Eastern sacred tree or "Tree of Life". Its precise symbolism was long kept secret from the masses and therefore surfaces only in medieval Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah.

The Tree of Life of Kabbalah is a milti-layered symbol in which the metaphysic structure of the universe (macrocosm) and the model of the perfect man (microcosm) converge as the "image" of God. It is composed of ten divine powers called sefirit (" numbers," lit., "countings"), defined as aspects or attributes of God and systematically associated with parts of his "body," so as to constitute an anthropomorphic whole. It thus effectively depicts God as the "sum total" of his divine powers, "gods." From the viewpoint of Assyrian prophecy, it is of crucial importance that the tree with its entire associated doctrinal apparatus can be shown to be based on a Mesopotamian model perfected in Assyria in the 2nd Millennium BC.

The Assyrian sacred tree, which occasionally takes an anthropomorphic form, can be analyzed as consisting of the "great gods" of the Assyrian pantheon and taken as a schematic representation of the "divine assembly," with Ishtar occupying the "heart" of this divine "body." Like the sefirot, the "great gods" making up the tree were prominently associated with numbers. This fact gives the tree important mystical diminution. (see Assyrian Prophecies by: Simo Parpola)





The Oracle of Ishtar of Arbela (Ishtar: The Holy Spirit)

We are poorly informed about the practical details of this (Ishtar) cult. As in other ancient mystery cults, those who embarked on it were pledged by oath to lifelong secrecy. The main lines of it can, however, be reconstructed from the available evidence.

The overall goal of the cult was the purification of the soul so it regain its original unity with God. This goal was encoded in the Assyrian sacred tree, meditation on which, certainly played an important part in the cult of Ishtar (Mother Goddess).

The trunk of the tree, represented as a stylized date palm standing on a rock, symbolized Ishtar as the power bringing the gap between heaven (the crown of the tree) and the material world (the base of the tree). The union of the mystic numbers of the crown (1) and the base (14) equals the mystic number of Ishtar (15).

For a spiritually pure person, union with God was believed to be possible not only in death but in life as well. This belief provides the doctrinal basis of Assyrian prophecy: when filled with divine spirit, the prophet not only becomes a seat for the Goddess but actually one with her, and thus can foresee future things. (See Assyrian Prophecies by: Simo Parpola).



Two carved figures of Ashurnasirpal II, facing a stylized Assyrian sacred tree, from Northwest palace at Nimrud.



We call them sacred trees because kings, priests, and genie of various sorts are shown standing or kneeling before such trees in an attitude of adoration.



Moreover, the genies are in the attitude of performing some office, which evidently, in the eyes of the Assyrians, had some spiritual or supernatural meaning.

[Tux]

10. Jesus

The myths of Jesus are more similiar to the myths of Mishra, a god that was born to a virgin, did miracles, died and came back to life then left.

If anyone gets upset over my use of the word "myth", deal with it. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3A+myth&btnG=Search

[grumpy old fart]

25. Very few true originals in the world.

"The theft of the beginning stories of civilization are a blow to all humanity. May the pigs all receive their just rewards."

A little strong, don't ya think? Adaptations of various stories over time is just natural, don't ya think? I mean, they're just stories after all. It's not like someone is violating a copyright and depriving someone of a livelihood.

[Dead_Parrot]

11. Same Story

Many of the details are identical, except the Gilgamesh epic pre-dates the eartist Hebrew writings by a thousand years or so.
Genesis is remarkably similar to thier creation myth, too...

[hvn_nbr_2]

12. A good bit of Mosaic law is plagiarized from Hammurabi, so I've read

Not sure if I spelled Hammurabi right. I think he was about 500 years before Moses.

[trotsky]

13. Watched a show on the National Geographic Channel last night.

Undersea explorer Robert Ballard was searching in the Black Sea for evidence of the flood that inspired so many legends. At the end of the last ice age, the Black Sea was a massive freshwater lake. But as the glaciers melter and ocean levels rose, the Mediterranean Sea spilled over into the Black Sea basin and instantly (over the matter of a few weeks) filled the whole area with hundreds of meters of seawater.

A neat feature of the Black Sea is that while the first 500 feet or so is normal seawater and supports life, below that there is no oxygen, so no life, but more importantly, no bacteria or insects to devour wood. So Ballard was also looking for ancient shipwrecks that should theoretically still be intact. Well, his crew found one. Still had rope tied to the top of the mast!

Cool show.

[supernova]

14. I've seen that one

Cool show indeed. B-)

I hope he goes back and explores some more. Esp that one place they were looking at that appeared to be some sort of dwelling in the past.

[dryan]

15. Flood myths...

are in a lot of global mythology. Frankly, I think this shows that it might have taken place -- in one way or another -- maybe it does have something to do with the Ice Age -- which was a global event.

Abraham was either an ethic Babylonian - what is now Iraq. Genesis speaks of the rivers in Eden. Mesopatamia - means the 'land between the two rivers'- the Tigris and the Euphrates, which are mentioned in Genesis. Babylon was very fertile and lush.

[Az]

16. Considering that most early societies developed along floodplains

Its not unusual that stories of floods have great significance.

Most early agro based societies developed along the flood basins that created incredibly rich soil for growing. The downside was the periodic flooding of course.

But its not only the cyclical flooding that people had to deal with. This simply created the basis for respecting floods as a source of great destruction. If people had lived in a more seismically active areas they would have developed myths about earthquaked destroying the world. But as they were more typically found where the conditions for agriculture where good they were made pliable to flood stories.

Some research suggests that around 7000 years ago the Dead Sea was a fresh water body. But a catastrophic collapse of a land mass between it and the nearby ocean caused a great flood of this body. It wiped out a coastal city and covered a great deal of land significantly changing the local topography. It changed the content of the sea to a mixed salt/fresh water zone in which nothing could live. And then the stories started to grow. Atlantis, the Flood, etc.

[dryan]

18. That's really...

interesting. Why is the Dead Sea so salty though?

Also, do you think the Atlantis story may have something to do with the volcanic eruption that happened on Crete during the pre-Bronze Age?

[hecate77]

20. No outflow, so salt builds up

Since it is a terminal body of water, and the only way it loses water is evaporation or people taking it out, the water will get salty over time.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Remember the Hebrews were captive in Babylon

many religious scholars think that they borrowed some of their concepts from the Babylonians. This might include the Flood story, and also the concept of the Devil as being seperate from God. If you have read "A Brief History of God", the author explains how before the Captivity, the Hebrew concept of God was responsible for everything. It was only after contact with Zoroastrianism, whose creation story talks of the the Creator making a Lord of Light and Wisdom (Ahura Mazda) and a Lord of Death (Angra Mainyu)to fight an eternal battle. (Source: Zendavesta of Zarathustra-Vendidad, Fargard I)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

23. Abraham was an Iraqi Abraham was born raised and educated in Iraq

[Dcitizen]

22. It's Noah time.

That is the original story of Noah, because the Babylonian story has its origins in older Sumerian and Akkadian myths. While Jawhists and Priests probably took the idea of their accounts from the Babylonian epic, they reworked it to express their understanding of the nature and character of the God of Israel. Utnapishtim could be the related name of Noah.

Some translation of the stone scripts I found:
...
In the time before the Flood, there was a city, Shuruppak, on the banks of the Euphrates. There, gods held a secret meeting where—at the urging of the god Enlil—they decided to destroy the world in a great flood. All the gods were under oath not to reveal this secret to any living thing. Ea (one of the gods that created humanity) went to Utnapishtim's house and told the secret to the walls of Utnapishtim's house. He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its width, to cover the boat, seal it with ten thousand baskets of pitch, and to take all living things into it. While not technically violating his oath to the rest of the gods, Ea was nonetheless able to tell Utnapishtim what to do. Utnapishtim, realizing why Ea had given him these instructions, did has he had been told. Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, a number of animals, and his family and dependents. Ea ordered him to enter the boat and to close the door behind him. Once safely inside the boat, a great storm came. It raged for six days and seven nights, and was so violent even the gods are frightened by it. The Flood destroyed all humankind.
When the storm subsided, Utnapishtim's boat came to rest on the top of Mount Nimush, and remained there for seven days. Utnapishtim sent out three birds in succession. The first two birds, a dove and a swallow, returned to him. The third, a raven, did not, indicating to Utnapishtim that the floodwaters had receded leaving dry land. He then released the animals, allowing them to roam over the now empty earth. When Utnapishtim and his family and dependents left the boat, he made a sacrifice. When “the gods smelled the savor , the gods gathered like flies…”
Enlil arrived on the scene and was furious to find that one of the humans had survived. He accused Ea of treachery, but Ea convinced Enlil to be merciful. Enlil then grants Utnapishtim and his wife immortality.
...

However, there were two arks found. One located in Turkey as a musuem, and another one nearby Nimush Mt in the border between Turkey and Afhgan. SO IT COULD BE TWO DIFFERENT STORIES.

Any way, maybe Iraqi took and hide all stone tablets because they were afraid the stones were ruined by miss fire and US seize their historical stones.

[Brentos]

27. One other thought....

Interesting discussion!

I had one other thought....pretend (if you must) for a moment that the Jewish/Christian/Muslim flood story is correct. Presume that God did destroy the world (or a chunk of it, if the story is hyperbolic, as much old history is)with a flood, and the story is then told orally down the generations. Wouldn't it appear in all the different cultures (probably changed over time)? The story being dated to earlier than the Torah version, doesn't mean the Torah version is wrong, or stole it, maybe the Torah version was always orally passed down and the other cultures stole it? Maybe they all had a common ancestor? Food for thought.

Pretty much all through the old testament, the laws/customs of Abraham's descendants are virtually identical to a law/custom in a surrounding culture, but changed slightly (or dramatically) in one or more ways to set the people apart.

So, if there was a catastrophic flood of some sort, the meaning of it is the important part to pass down to your generations. It was God (not another god) who caused it, it was the people's sin that brought it upon them, and it was God's love that allowed his creation (yet) another chance.

Thanks,
-Brentos

[onager]

28. Here's another good example...

Circa 1520 BCE:

Exodus 2:3--And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink...

2:10--And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.

Late-comer! Poser! Plagiarist!

Circa 2450 BCE:

Sargon, the mighty king, King of Agade (Sumeria), am I. My mother was a vestal, my father I knew not...In my City Azuripani, which is situated on the bank of the Euphrates, my mother, the vestal, bore me.

In a hidden place she brought me forth. She laid me in a vessel made of reeds, closed my door with pitch, and dropped me down into the river, which did not drown me.

The river carried me to Akki, the water carrier...In my work as a gardener I was beloved by Ishtar. I became king for forty-five years. I held kingly sway.

The same "baby in a basket" yarn is also told about Pharoah Sneferu of Egypt, who ruled around 2575-2551 BCE. (Builder of the pyramid complex at Dashur--the "bent pyramid," Maidum Pyramid and Red Pyramid.)

Another legend about Sneferu, from the Westcar Papyrus, also sounds STRANGELY familiar.

At the time, the Pharoah was floating around a lake in a boatload of harem girls. One young woman lost her emerald ring in the water. The king offered to get her another, but she wouldn't hear of it:

His Majesty said to the chief scribe: "I am given great enjoyment by this novelty; indeed my mind is much refreshed as the girls row me up and down the lake. Now one of them has lost her green jewel, which has dropped into the water, and she wants it back again and will not have another to replace it."

The chief scribe at once muttered a spell. Then by reason of his magic words the waters of the lake were divided like a lane.

He went down and found the green jewel which the girl had lost, and came back with it to her. When he did that, he again uttered words of power, and the waters came together as they were before.

I spent the beginning of this year in Egypt (January and part of February.) If you really want to piss off an Egyptian, tell them the Israelites built their pyramids. Or the space aliens.