'Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has.'

[BurtWorm]

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/scienceblogs/pharyngula/~3/-OX8_M8vLzU/we_arent_going_to_kiss_and_mak.php

Agree or disagree?

[anonymous171]

1. I'm sure Baptists would agree. nt

[fasttense]

2. And yet this all powerful, all knowing, being gave us very large brains to reason with.

Funny, why did God bother to give us reason when all we really needed was blind faith? Seems to me he should have dumbed us down some to match his expectations.

[BurtWorm]

3. The Lord God Almighty also made our sexual organs extremely sensitive

but that doesn't mean he wants us to get pleasure out using them.

[Odin2005]

4. To repeat what I said in the GD thread: Reason is Man's highest faculty, Blind Faith is his lowest.

No Contest. One should take NOTHING on blind faith. One should, as Immanuel Kant said, "dare to know", and, as Socrates said, to be aware of one's own ignorance and not make shit up in it's place. One of the great virtues of Western Civilization, and we inherited from the Greeks (and especially from the greatest iconoclast of them all, Socrates), is a skepticism towards faith-based dogma. To be a Westerner is to be an iconoclast, a critic of "received wisdom".

Of course one must distinguish faith from blind faith, which is the contrast between skepticism and dogmatism. There is no problem necessarily with faith in something, we do things on faith every day and have to in order to function in the world, we would descend into solipsistic insanity otherwise. But one must pair that faith with reason or skepticism in order to prevent that faith from degenerating into the blind faith of religion and dogmatic ideology.



Some quotes from the Austrian philosopher Karl Popper, who talked about this a lot:

"If we are uncritical we shall always find what we want: we shall look for, and find, confirmations, and we shall look away from, and not see, whatever might be dangerous to our pet theories. In this way it is only too easy to obtain what appears to be overwhelming evidence in favor of a theory which, if approached critically, would have been refuted."

"Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve."

"The genuine rationalist does not think that he or anyone else is in possession of the truth; nor does he think that mere criticism as such helps us achieve new ideas. But he does think that, in the sphere of ideas, only critical discussion can help us sort the wheat from the chaff. He is well aware that acceptance or rejection of an idea is never a purely rational matter; but he thinks that only critical discussion can give us the maturity to see an idea from more and more sides and to make a correct judgement of it."

"Our civilization has not yet fully recovered from the shock of its birth — the transition from the tribal or 'closed society', with its submission to magical forces, to the 'open society' which sets free the critical powers of man."

"The open society is one in which men have learned to be to some extent critical of taboos, and to base decisions on the authority of their own intelligence."

"A rationalist, as I use the word, is a man who attempts to reach decisions by argument and perhaps, in certain cases, by compromise, rather than by violence. He is a man who would rather be unsuccessful in convincing another man by argument than successful in crushing him by force, by intimidation and threats, or even by persuasive propaganda."

"The true Enlightenment thinker, the true rationalist, never wants to talk anyone into anything. No, he does not even want to convince; all the time he is aware that he may be wrong. Above all, he values the intellectual independence of others too highly to want to convince them in important matters. He would much rather invite contradiction, preferably in the form of rational and disciplined criticism. He seeks not to convince but to arouse — to challenge others to form free opinions."

"The more we learn about the world, and the deeper our learning, the more conscious, clear, and well-defined will be our knowledge of what we do not know, our knowledge of our ignorance. The main source of our ignorance lies in the fact that our knowledge can only be finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite."

"If we thus admit that there is no authority beyond the reach of criticism to be found within the whole province of our knowledge, however far we may have penetrated into the unknown, then we can retain, without risk of dogmatism, the idea that truth itself is beyond all human authority. Indeed, we are not only able to retain this idea, we must retain it. For without it there can be no objective standards of scientific inquiry, no criticism of our conjectured solutions, no groping for the unknown, and no quest for knowledge."

"Science must begin with myths, and with the criticism of myths."

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Oh, Jesus, I'm agreeing with the fundies.

That's the WHOLE point!!!

[demwing]

6. Reason without faith is empty...

...and faith without reason is blind.

This church is blind.

[ZombieHorde]

17. Empty of what? nt

[BurtWorm]

18. Empty of platitude

:patriot:

[cosmik debris]

19. Empty of contradictions. n/t

[demwing]

20. Many people would answer those questions in many ways, but

I would say that reason without faith is empty of meaning, and faith without reason is blind to the truth.

[cosmik debris]

24. But that's just not true

"reason without faith is empty of meaning" You have no idea what you are talking about.

[demwing]

25. LOL. That's fresh

what you really mean is that you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm quite clear about what I meant.

I have a report due in 15 minutes, and am stealing time online while at work. Give me a few, and I'll be back to explain.

[cosmik debris]

27. Let me explain.

As long as I have something to give to someone who wants it, my life is not empty of meaning.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[demwing]

40. Ahhh... but I never said, nor implied, that your life is empty of meaning.

I said "reason without faith is empty of meaning, and faith without reason is blind to the truth"

First, I'll be honest and state that this is 100% opinion. I'll not pretend I'm stating fact.

With that in mind (and an assumption that you are not challenging my assertion that faith can be blind), let me explain my previous comments a bit...

"Reason without faith is empty of meaning" - There are things that we can measure, and know by the measurements, and there are things that can not be measured through the physical sciences, but which have their own reality.

For example, I can measure time, and distance, and know how far away my father is and how long it has been since we last sat together, but how can I measure how much I miss him when we are apart? To comprehend that feeling, to give it any meaning, I have to take a leap of faith and believe that my emotion is more than just a chemical response to a certain set of physical circumstances. I have no measurable proof that I miss my father, other than the overwhelming sense of loss mixed with love. The emotion feels real, but does it have any meaning? If I'm only reasonable, I'd say no. Reason tells me that the feeling is an illusion. A neurological or chemical response, brought on by conditioning and socialization. Programmed into my behavior patterns to help promote self-perpetuation.

Perhaps self-perpetuation is "meaning" to some, but to me it is not. Simply movement forward does not imply progress.

Faith in the spiritual nature of life, in the persistence of life outside of physical existence, is very much the same, for me. I can absolutely conceive of life as a temporary manifestation of physical elements, grounded in reason, explained by scientific principles, and wholly rational and logical. But to my ability to understand, such an existence would have no meaning whatsoever. It would be as if all of existence was a giant random machine, running through a series of processes that can be documented and detailed, but which have no purpose and which produce no outcome. Movement without progress. In effect, reason, without meaning. You may be able to accept such an existence, and more power to you. I do not.

My belief that there is something more, something beyond my limited ability to understand through reason alone, comes from my faith that life has a design, that life operates according to a sentient plan, which I experience at a level similar to emotion. To me, it is undeniable. You may not share that experience, and that's ok, but that disagreement in itself does not prove me wrong, or support your accusation that I don't know what I'm talking about. Everything I've written, as I said in the beginning, is my opinion. I now exactly what I'm talking about, because I'm talking about my personal realizations about spirituality. I can't prove it to you, because you won't accept a spiritual, faith based argument. You will only accept an argument based in cold, hard, reason. But as I said, to me, reason, without faith, is empty of meaning.

Maybe one day you'll experience something that is beyond reason. Maybe you'll call it madness, or maybe you'll call it inspiration. Maybe it will never happen for you. That's your journey, not mine. See you at the other side :)

[cosmik debris]

44. That's a huge load of crap

You clearly implied that because my life, based on reason, is without faith, it is empty of meaning. That was both incorrect and insulting.

I am sorry you are afflicted by an inability to comprehend life without making up stories to explain it. But your clear implication that people without faith are somehow deficient is way off base.

I've run across a lot of people who think they are better than me because they have an imaginary friend. You seem to fit into that category. That is pompous, arrogant, condescending, rude, and self righteous. So I feel no guilt when I say that I believe your faith is a deficiency of critical thinking skills that manifests as extreme gullibility.

While you may think I'm inferior for not buying into your myths, I see you as inferior because you need myths.

Maybe one day you'll experience something that clears your head of the myths. Maybe you'll call it madness, or maybe you'll call it inspiration. Maybe it will never happen for you. That's your journey, not mine.

I hope you can overcome your deficiency.

[demwing]

49. I hope I can overcome my deficiencies as well

but we clearly see things differently. You say that I implied that your life has no meaning, and that I believe myself to be better than you, but I never said that. In fact, I went to great pains to correct that misconception. I also went to great lengths to clarify that what I wrote was opinion.

You, however, come straight out and call me inferior, and deficient, because we believe differently.

It's ok to believe differently. Why should you try to insult people? Fortunately for me, it doesn't hurt my feelings, because your scorn doesn't challenge my beliefs. I'm ok with your opinion. Why do you react so negatively, so aggressively, to mine?

[cosmik debris]

50. You have insulted me

And you pretend that it wasn't even an insult.

You want to take offense at what I say, but you deny me the right to take offense at what you say.

So, "Why should you try to insult people?"

Why are you being such an ass?

[demwing]

52. I never meant any insult to you, or to anyone

but if I have committed any offense, intentional or otherwise, then I sincerely apologize to everyone involved.

[ZombieHorde]

21. Bwahahahahaa! nt

[demwing]

42. Life is so full of contradications! Beautiful contradictions, full of personality.

Are you sure that that is where you want to plant your flag?

[Silent3]

39. Reason alone isn't sufficient, but faith is only poorly related...

...to that which remains that you need to motivate yourself to do something with your life.

Without at least basic drives -- desires for food, sleep, sex, survival, avoidance of physical pain and discomfort, etc. -- reason alone wouldn't motivate you to do anything. As social animals we humans have evolved (partly at a genetic level, refined further by cultural/memetic evolution) in a way such that we also have, to a varying degree and in varying forms from individual to individual, desires and drives for things like fairness, justice, altruism, caring for our young, etc.

Such drives and desire are non-rational, neither rational nor irrational, they are simply outside of logic and reason. They are like the postulates of a mathematical system -- something you need as a place to start from before you apply logic and reason.

Faith, in my opinion, faith in the religious or spiritual sense, is simply an unnecessary superstitious psychological layer wrapped around our non-rational motivations.

[Meshuga]

7. It depends

Reason has been applied to the faith of some religious groups post-enlightenment so reason is not an enemy of their approach to faith. Quite the opposite. But reason is the enemy of faith of the religious groups that don't subscribe to ideas brought by Enlightenment. In this case reason is the enemy.

[skepticscott]

22. Not really

Only the appearance or false presumption of reason. Though the Catholic Church claims to value reason as a way of arriving at truth, any such exploration has implicitly placed some conclusions off limits right from the start. No pope or cardinal will ever arrive, through reason, at the conclusion that priests should be allowed to marry or that women should be ordained, nor endorse any such conclusion reached by others, no matter how well argued. "Reasoning" to the existence of god by the religious has always had its conclusion pre-determined.

[Meshuga]

29. I will still say it depends

I would say that post-elightenment religious thought (and I want to stress that only some groups subscribe to them, not all) is more about what these religious groups do and what they are about rather than reasoning the existence of a deity.

My impression is that certain belief is not the focus but a personal tool for the individual who sees it as useful. So these individuals subscribe to whatever belief they may have. Others may not believe in anything and that is okay to them. The belief part seems to be left open ended to the discretion of the individual so a congregation may have members with conflicting beliefs and disbeliefs.

It seems to me that post-enlightenment religious groups are more focused on changing the world through action rather than convincing that others should subscribe to the same supernatural beliefs they may or may not have. Sometimes, the spirituality that they perceive or say they experience is a consequence of their actions.

I say all this because I have participated in different religious movements and I have learned that from Christians and well. The ones I have met here in DU and in the real world. Without ever knowing them I would still be thinking that Christianity is only about salvation through accepting Jesus Christ as the savior. I have learned that is not exactly true for all Christians.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. Epic Fail

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

10. On who's part? n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. Do you really care to hear what I think?

and if so, Why?

[Goblinmonger]

12. Whatever, I guess.

You posted a comment. I didn't understand. I asked for clarification. Don't know why that warrants an attitude. I'm curious as to what you meant.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. I just do not see what is so hard to understand about calling the sign

a failure. The sign is a Fail. The premise is a fail. The sermon had a be a fail. I see no success in that thought process anywhere. Do you?

Sorry if you perceived an attitude.

[Goblinmonger]

15. I just didn't understand if you meant

that the sign was a failure or the posting of the sign was a failure (with the link the comment could have been aimed there by some). Thanks for the clarification.

[liberal N proud]

9. That should remove all reason for attending church

[Hugabear]

13. Oh, I absolutely agree 100%

The minute these fundies start using reason and logic, their entire "faith" falls flat on its face.

[rrneck]

16. Reason is the greatest enemy

that naked, capitalistic, greedy, lying, avaricious, faith in profit has.

Thinking costs them money.

[Uncle Joe]

23. Reason, faith and fear in balance are all requirements for survival.

I believe the problem arises, when two of these dynamics gang up to dominate the one.

Reason at it's highest denomination brings enlightenment and understanding while it's lowest breeds arrogance and disdain.

Faith at it's highest denomination brings courage and empathy while it's lowest breeds judgment and division.

Fear at it's highest denomination brings awareness and action while it's lowest breeds hatred and ignorance.

Keep them all in balance and Earth will remain in balance.

[cosmik debris]

26. "it's lowest breeds judgment and division"

So your post is the worst that faith has to offer--divisive and jugemental?

Insulting those who do not share your faith is not the best advertisment for that faith.

[Uncle Joe]

28. Did you not read my first sentence or mean to edit out the first half of the faith sentence?

Reason, faith and fear in balance are all requirements for survival.

"I believe the problem arises, when two of these dynamics gang up to dominate the one."

Faith at it's highest denomination brings courage and empathy while it's lowest breeds judgment and division.

My post was the best and worst that all three dynamics have contributed throughout human history, it makes no distinction as to any particular faith, just faith in general.

I also listed what I perceived reason and fear's shortcomings to be as well.

[cosmik debris]

30. Your post was judgmental and divisive.

As well as insulting to those without faith.

[Uncle Joe]

31. Are you stating that all three dynamics have never been abused?

I see no insult in my post whether you have structured religious faith or not.

Faith, fear and reason are natural, biological impulses which date to the beginning of human kind.

You have faith even if it's not of religious nature, or you would be too afraid to leave your home in the morning.

[cosmik debris]

32. Your post is insulting because it says that those with the least faith

bring divisiveness and judgment.

But it was you that brought judgment and divisiveness.

Just because people don't agree with you on faith doesn't justify insulting them.

I don't need faith. You just made that up to justify your own prejudice.

[Uncle Joe]

33. I challenge you to find the word least anywhere in my post.

I wasn't referring to most or least in quantity, I was stating highest and lowest denominations as in the quality of their utility.

Mother Teresa used faith to one end, Jim Jones misused it to another.

You have faith whether you like it or not, it's in your DNA.

Otherwise your and my ancestors would never have come down from the tree after the predator (s) left.

[cosmik debris]

34. That's bullshit

You just want to believe that faith is necessary because YOU can't figure out how to get by with out it.

A lot of us have found plenty of ways to get by without faith.

You are welcome to keep your crutch, but don't expect me to use a crutch just because you are lame.

[Uncle Joe]

35. I would humbly suggest you look up the definition of the word "faith" in the Dictionary.

There are many definitions but here is the one, I'm referring to.

"anything believed"

If you didn't believe you could safely drive to work in your car, you would never get behind the wheel.

If you don't have any faith, you must be paralyzed with fear.

[cosmik debris]

36. So it is just a semantic argument to cover your prejudice

against people who reject faith.

In another thread on this subject a poster commented that faith is a flaw to be overcome, not a virtue. I see faith as a crutch for people who need it. I don't need it.

[Uncle Joe]

37. If you want to be an atheist, more power to you, I could care less.

I'm agnostic and make no claims to know the religious truth. I am continually looking for truth and haven't closed by mind to it. I believe there is something out there, maybe outside of our universe, but I don't know for certain and I can't hold it against anyone who doesn't believe in a Creator of some kind.

Where do you get the idea that I'm prejudice?

I do see faith, fear and reason as all requirements of human survival. Whether you believe in a God, Gods, Goddesses or none at all. Those dynamics of faith, fear and reason are simply part of the human makeup.

If you break your leg, you may come to appreciate crutches, I can't imagine you're just going to limp along through life. While you may not need a crutch in your life now, they're still good to have around and not just for you but for someone you may care about.

[cosmik debris]

38. I don't believe you n/t

[demwing]

41. Faith may be a crutch

but it is an undeniable part of my life, experience, and existence. I can no more deny my faith than you can deny your life. If that makes me a cripple, unable to stand without a crutch, then so be it. I rejoice in it, because I know, through faith, that I am a part of a universe full of love, and full of meaning. It is as real to me as anything is to you.

[cosmik debris]

45. I reached the same conclusion with out the mythology.

It is a shame you missed that short cut.

[demwing]

46. Only seems like a shame to you

I am quite happy :)

[cosmik debris]

48. It is a shame to out culture and civilization

that we are being held back by people who value superstition over reason.

Fear of black cats, astrology, and super hero gods have no place in an advanced society.

[demwing]

51. If I'm holding you back

then i'm surprised. How could my faith hold back your reason?

You certainly aren't holding me back, not an inch. Maybe your advanced society isn't as advanced as you think it to be, if black cats, astrology, and super hero gods muck it all up. :)

[cosmik debris]

53. It is not personal, I have overcome the limits of faith,

But there are a lot of things in our culture that are held back by religion.

Education and science are two great examples.

Both would progress a lot faster if there were none of your superstition in our culture.

[demwing]

54. I don't care so much about religion

because religion hasn't done much for anyone that I've ever met.

But questions of faith, spirituality, and consciousness? Those are the real pursuits of the soul. And in my experiences (which are far from few, and wildly diverse) faith sets you free, it doesn't limit. Not in any way.

[cosmik debris]

55. You are playing semantic games. I can't win at your semantic games. n/t

[demwing]

56. It is not a game

but I do notice that this isn't the first time you walk out on that final note.

[cosmik debris]

57. It's not going anywhere

And I really don't like being insulted by superstitious people.

Ciao

[demwing]

58. Okay, So long!

and thanks for all the fish ;)

[Evoman]

43. I completely agree with that sign.

[rrneck]

47. They have no reason to say shit like that. nt