Why are some Atheists are angry...

[Taverner]

One complaint I keep getting from theists is that we Atheists are angry. That we're mad and intolerant.

Well, for the record, I do not tolerate fools gladly, and as a result I have no tolerance for creationism, but that's a different ball of wax.

Anyway - the question as to why we are angry? We feel lied to, simply put. And every time a Christian assaults us with their "convert or go to hell" we get angry because we are being lied to at that moment.

Also - we are foreigners in our own country. We live in a country that has decided itself Christian, and so all culture has been bent around Christianity. Despite the occasional Menorah Dec 25 remains a Christian Holiday. Decorations go up all over pointing this out (although many of us also laugh at the Pagan symbols interspersed with the Christian ones.)

If you have a kid, they run the chance of getting ridiculed because of they don't go to church or synagogue.

Also, there's that "I'll pray for you" I know this is supposed to mean that you are thinking of me, but just say that. "You'll be in my thoughts." That to me is a whole lot better than talking with your invisible friend about whatever malady I am facing.

But mainly, we feel lied to. At some point, a religious figure pointed out that if we don't accept Christ 'in our heart' then we will go to hell and suffer forever. Nice guy that Asshole Yahweh is...

So with this fear that tends to infiltrate out psyche all throughout high school and college - we end up being stressed at literally nothing.

[GodlessBiker]

1. Majority populations often think minority populations are angry.

I can't for the life of me figure out why. :sarcasm:

[Taverner]

2. LOL true

[Warpy]

3. I wouldn't call it angry but it is irritating

to have other people make cultural assumptions, whether it's shared religion or shared bigotry.

It's irritating when people usurp the power of their god and send you to hell as soon as they find out you don't share that religion or treat you like a pariah when they find out you've got nothing against blacks/Hispanics/homosexuals/flavor of the day.

The "I'll pray for you" feels rather like they're going to Mommy to rat you out because you won't share your toy.

I wouldn't call it anger, though. It's more the reaction we all get when someone else is being rude or overly familiar.

[Hydra]

4. I'm an agnostic

And generally, I'm pretty happy...until you start insisting that I need Jesus to "save" me.

I went to church, I know all about Jesus- and the idea that by simply believing in him that you get a free pass to paradise is absurd. You have to live the life, of which I have very little problem with doing...but I have a GREAT problem with people who use him as a get out of jail free card who proclaim that I am somehow amoral for not doing so.

[ZombieHorde]

45. There is no way to know if you are really an agnostic or not.

Some part of you could know or not know, how would anyone know what you really know?

[Hydra]

49. HA!

:spray:

The man speaks wisdom

[monmouth]

5. I don't think there's a hell. If there is we live it here on earth. When you're

dead, you're dead. That's it, kaput...

[dmallind]

6. I'm not angry, I just disagree and they think it's anger

I can understand why some atheists are angry, but generally speaking the claims of angriness normally follow perfectly calm but clearly and forcefully expressed rebuttals to the normally accepted views of religion.

[Taverner]

7. Yes some of them are shocked, SHOCKED I say

When they find out you have no interest in their religion after hearing "the good news." Remember, evangelicals are taught that when a human hears the good news, a light is supposed to go off or something.

The other day I talked religion with my dental hygienist. She was shocked that I used to be a Christian, and walked away. "How could you walk away from that?" she asked. I politely explained that I didn't believe, it made no sense, science, all the usuals. She still didn't get it. "How did we get here then?"

"Well I don't know about you, but my parents loved each other very much and one night..."

[patrice]

11. "How did we get here?" always surprises me from people who are NOT supposed to need explanations.

It's also surprising that what they think of as "God" apparently can do things ONLY certain ways and CANNOT do them ANY way, only in the manner in which they "the believers" prescribe.

:crazy:

[stopbush]

8. I don't feel lied to, but I do feel my intelligence is being insulted.

Imagine if people came up to you and said, "did you know that 2+2 equals 1-million? Did you know that my math is the one true math? Did you know that if you believe this, you'll live eternally in a heavenly paradise?" no one would have a problem with your replying, "you're an asshole if you believe that to be true."

But when it comes to religion, the most childish (and, I stress childish because that's what it really is), fearful, fanciful, ignorant, fantasy based bromides one could ever have the misfortune of encountering in polite company are OFF LIMITS to rebuttal because ???? Yes, anything and everything else under the sun can be called for what it is, but when it comes to religion, we must defer to the blatant stupidities because it's "tradition" or "you'll hurt their feelings" or "most people think it's true" or "you atheists/rationalists/realists are such an angry bunch."

That's not to say that religions aren't themselves based on blatant lies, from the fantastic notion that dead people come back to life to the idea that gods roam the Earth in human form displaying supernatural powers, to the lying invention of mythical personages (like Zeus, Moses and Jesus) to add a note of a-historic verisimilitude to the fables. No, religion is pretty much lies from Alpha to Omega.

It doesn't make me angry. Having come from a religious background, it just makes me dumbfounded. To think that educated adults in the 21st century can still hold to such childishness is stupefying, to say the least. But there ya have it.

[Taverner]

12. Did you know that my math is the one true math?

:rofl:

That's it - next time I talk with a Fundie I'm bringing that out

[bunnies]

9. We're angry because its hard being so much smarter than everyone else.

:evilgrin: :hide:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I can understand why you are angry

Yet it appears that you are angry at Christians, not all believers. I know what you mean about feeling funny when someone closely questions you about where you go to church. I've had that happen many a time, and, depending on the circumstances, I'm polite or sarky.

I'm a believer, but not Christian, and let me tell you that because your worldview is different from mine, that's perfectly all right. During my lifetime, my God concept has changed several times, and the one thing I know is that I don't know--so you have just a good a chance of being right about things as I do.

Heaven? Hell? Aren't they states of mind? I've been in both places in my lifetime, and, interestingly enough, religious belief had little or nothing to do with it.

[Taverner]

13. It is true I am more angry at EVANGELICAL Christians

Strangely, I don't have the disdain for the Mainline Christians - they actually make the world a better place with their charity programs, and rarely do they convert.

But Religion as a whole, in my mind, is one big lie. True, the people who created the lie lived many years ago - but they are all big lies.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. Do you include Buddhism in your opinion?

Just wondering, since Buddhism stresses the way to live one's life more than the God aspects (some branches of Buddhism say God doe not exist--see my sig line). To my mind, there are two components to religion-one dealing with God, the other dealing with how to live your life so that you are at peace with yourself and others. To my mind, it is the latter aspect of religion that is more important, because it is the driving force behind human relations, good and bad.

[Taverner]

32. What claims is Buddhism making?

I have always felt Buddhism was more of a philosophy than a religion. But there is a very ritualistic side of it as well - just look up Theravada Buddhism.

But as for their lying or not, what claims are they making. Are they claiming Nirvana is an actual place or that it is just a state of mind?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

35. I'm not Buddhist

I've studied Buddhist teachings, and from what I have read what is important, and stressed, is that all suffering comes from desire, and that the goal is to ease suffering. I have interpreted Nirvana as not being a place but rather a state of mind, one that is at peace.

[Birdiesmom]

14. Not all Christians believe you are going to hell...

...if you are an atheist. Yes, the majority tend to believe that "Jesus is the only way," but there are a few of us who don't think that God is that narrow. I don't think you or other atheists or agnostics or members of other religious faiths are going to hell.

I think the Bible reflects the culture of the people who wrote it, and it did not come down from God unedited and unrevised and unshaped by human ideas and shortcomings. This, of course, makes me a heretic by strict traditionally "Christian" standards. However, if the only way God can receive the love of humanity is by threatening hellfire or earthly destruction if they DON'T love and obey, then all the talk of a God of creation, love and forgiveness is pretty hollow, isn't it? Even the "acceptance of Jesus Christ in your heart" is a condition, and contingent upon recognizing what a miserable piece of work you yourself are, in the bargain. Sure -- we are none of us founts of unfailing goodness, because we are human -- and God made us human, with human tendencies, which include the desire to be loved, admired, safe, entertained, etc. These tendencies, from childhood, lead us into mischief. Why should we be damned for being human?

That said, I believe Jesus embodied God as no one else has when he said to love God with all your heart, mind, & strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. And with the Good Samaritan story, he told the crowd that your neighbor is anyone who needs your help. Of any nationality, race, or religion. To be loved as much as you love yourself.

If Christians were involved with doing this, I don't think they would have time to be running around telling people they were going to hell. They'd be too busy getting people fed, clothed, immunized, treated for AIDS and other diseases, housed, freed from wars and oppression, etc.

[Taverner]

16. Well true

Upthread I mentioned my anger is pretty much reserved towards the Fundamentalist-Evangelical Types. I have no beef with the Liberal Christians - when they go on a "mission" it isn't to force bibles down the throats of the underprivleged, but feeding them and getting them medicine.

[JerseygirlCT]

62. And the irony of that, of course

is that those actions usually carry their own, immediate rewards - bigger than holding a contract of sorts over someone's head before helping them.

The way helping someone makes you feel is so rewarding -- the very idea that there would need to be some sort of quid pro quo boggles my mind.

[stopbush]

18. Interesting that you mention the Good Samaritan story.

The one thing we're sure about the Samaritan is that he was NOT a Christian. In fact, he wasn't even a traditional Jew. Religiously, Samaritanism is a sister religion to Judaism, separate from the historically mainstream form of Judaism. Based on the Samaritan Pentateuch, Samaritans claim that their worship is the true religion of the ancient Israelites, predating the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. And the religion is still around today, even though it's adherents number under 1,000.

So what does that tell us? Well, first off, that you don't have to be a Christian to do good works and have those good works recognized as having value by the mythical Christ, even if that value isn't enough to gain you entry to heaven by Jesus' standards (Jesus said that if you don't believe in him, you're toast). Second, you don't even have to believe in a traditional, mainstream religion to have the mythic Christ find value in your actions.

As to the rest of your post, you cherry pick your religion as do most Christians. After all, that's why there are so many sects of Christianity (over 30,000 by last count). As an atheist, I ask why you even bother? If you can't take the Bible hook, line and sinker, the stupidities and inaccuracies along with the few (and they are few) glimmers of hope, why bother? I'm going to guess it's largely based on fear - fear that there is a hell somewhere and you don't want to burn for eternity.

But take away that myth-based fear, and Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan avers that one need not believe in ANY particular religion to be a good person by any standard. If one believes -as do I - that the life we have here and now is all we've got, then it's quite a simple and logical step to not waste one's time and life with religion.

But, that's the beauty of the Bible, isn't it? You can make it mean whatever you want. It's like a horoscope in a way. the only difference is that people aren't still killing each other over their particular interpretation of horoscopes.

[Taverner]

19. Anytime you try to reconcile modern life with Bronze and Iron Age Ethics

You have to cherry pick your religion.

I mean, what city is going to let you sacrifice a goat on your front porch?

[stopbush]

20. Yes, it sucks living in most cities in the Christian USA,

for while they'll allow you to sell your daughter into slavery or stone your kids to death for talking back to you, they all seem to draw the line at animal sacrifices. I guess with the economy being so bad, most cities are afraid that you'd eat the goat as a BBQ, and that could piss off god to no end. He might send a hurricane or a tornado or a Republican to wreak havoc on their little corner of god's country.

[Birdiesmom]

25. Who's gonna let you stone you kid to death...

...for back-talking?

That's in the Bible, too -- not far from that pesky verse about "a man who lies with another man as with a woman is an abomination."

So -- we should pay as much attention to one verse as to the other -- right?:crazy:

[stopbush]

30. The question is: why pay attention to ANY of them?

Most Bible verses can be easily demonstrated to be false, inaccurate, a-historic, myth-derived or just plain stupid on the face of it. Why anyone would give credence to the few verses that aren't easily falsifiable "gimmes" is a mystery to me.

If your auto mechanic didn't know how to perform a simple oil change, would you believe him when he told you he could replace your timing belt? If your doctor told you that he hadn't a clue on how to take your temperature, but he was ready to perform brain surgery on you later in the day, would you ignore his inability to take your temperature and get prepped for surgery?

Probably not - but when the myriad stupidities of the Bible are pointed out, you deftly ignore them to proclaim, "but I believe THIS part is true!"

Q: what do you call a Biblical "fact" after it has been demonstrated to be false?

A: a metaphor.

Q: what do you call a Biblical metaphor after it has been shown to be illogical?

A: an article of faith.

[Birdiesmom]

38. I understand your point...

...it is what I am struggling with now.

But if this is all there is -- and there is truly no justice in the world, and no loving, safe place to which living things can return after they die painfully and prematurely because of the evil, cruelty, greed and stupidity of this world -- then I don't know if I can stand knowing it.

Then, the candle in my sig line might well go out. For me, anyway.

[Taverner]

41. The way I look at it, becoming an Atheist freed me

Before I walked away, I was always worried that God was watching every thought, every thing I did. Every time in puberty I did *that thing* I felt guilty.

Now, knowing there is no heaven no hell, I feel free. I don't fear death anymore. After all, I won't be around to experience it.

But as for the evil and cruelty in the world, I like the saying "We must become the Gods we once worshiped" This doesn't mean we need to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. It means that if we want healing, we must study that disease until we have eradicated it. If we want justice, we have to fight for it.

I would rather fail by my own hands, then be delivered something by another.

[stopbush]

42. "All" there is?

I really don't understand this concept. The little we know about the universe is already quite overwhelming.

Justice in the world was thought up by men and comes from men. In fact, there is ONLY justice in this world. There is no justice beyond this world, outside of the justice of a good or bad reputation/legacy after one is dead. So, if bushco gets away with their crimes in this life, they get away with it. There's no god to send them to eternal justice.

Here's a thought for you: why should there be a place for living things to return to after they die? There was no place for them to exist for the billions of years that the Earth was in existence BEFORE they were born. Why imagine there's a place for them to go after they're dead? Are Neanderthals in heaven? How about the dinosaurs?

As far as the world being "evil, cruel and stupid," that's how WE describe the world of men. The rest of the planet doesn't really give a damn. Earthquakes and tsunamis are not sentient entities with malice aforethought, they are simply conditions that one should expect on a planet that is still cooling. Is a tsunami "cruel" if it wipes out hundreds of thousands of cockroaches? No, it's only cruel when human life is lost. We view concepts like cruelty and evil through the prism of how things effect humans for the simple reason that we thought them up to begin with.

It is human beings who attach labels like evil and cruel to things because we have EVOLVED a sense of reason that permits us to consider life in such a way. We all know that we're going to die some day. Does a horse have knowledge of its own mortality? How about a river that's going to dry up? I don't think so.

The true beauty of man is that we ARE self-aware and rational. As far as we know, we are the ONLY life form in the universe that has the capacity to be aware and rational. Were it not for us, the universe may not even be aware of its existence. Think about it. We may have evolved so that the universe might become aware that it existed. For the billions of years before our evolution, nothing in the universe knew the universe existed. We may be the universe's initiative to learn that it IS.

To imagine that through the billions of years since the Big Bang, it is human beings who of all the biological life forms on the planet have over the last 100,000-250,000 years (and specifically - in the past 10,000 years) evolved to the point where we are not only aware of the realities around us, but that we can fantasize about such things as gods and supernatural powers in almost too much to consider.

Does one really need MORE than that to have a great life? If that's "all" there is, then I'll take it.

[Birdiesmom]

47. I wasn't talking about natural events such as earthquakes...

...perhaps I shouldn't have said the WORLD is "evil, cruel and stupid" -- it isn't. I meant what humanity has done -- the wars, the abuse of animals and the environment, and the never-ending inhumanity of mankind to itself.

The poisoning of our food supply with additives and colorings and hormones, so that cancer is a given if you live long enough. Inhumane farming practices. Violence in cities world-wide. Violence against women and children in the third-world, along with crushing poverty and disease. The casual abundance we in first world countries take for granted.

The "all" I'm talking about, which I didn't express very well in my post, is the brief, suffering life that far too many living things have on this earth because of the greed, cruelty and stupidity of much of humanity. The ones who die in infancy from disease and neglect, or from abuse. The children who grow up to be sociopaths because, for whatever reason, they never developed a conscience -- if you truly can't understand what another person feels, or how this relates to you, how can you be held accountable for the monster you become? The millions dying from AIDS, malaria, yellow fever, and other diseases which could be greatly helped with vaccines and education. Animals dying on the street. Or becoming extinct.

I am self-aware and rational enough that I mourn for those who have a brief, painful life.

[stopbush]

50. But ALL biological life is fleeting.

Humans are better off than any other life form on this planet. We dominate them, in fact.

Consider the birds. 75% of them die a horrible death within a few months of their birth due to predators and starvation (you've got to ignore the NT when it says Jesus takes care of the sparrows. He doesn't). Most of us do better than that. Yet with all of the wonders of modern medicine, fully 25% of pregnancies in the Western world do not come to term and are lost as miscarriages.

As far as extinction, 99% of all life forms that have ever graced this planet are NOW extinct. Those of us here now - including plants - are the 1% who happen to be living now. Simply as a numbers game, extinction is in the cards for humans as well. THAT is the nature of things.

The difference that we have as rational beings is that we - unlike every other life form on this planet now and those long gone - can to some extent influence our own destiny. We no longer need to wait for evolution to grind out some 20,000-year process to get us from Step A to Step B. We can literally go from Step A to Step T in a handful of years.

If you REALLY want to think about it, human beings have evolved to produce a much BETTER world for humans than we should have any right to expect. Consider that for the first 500-million years of its existence, the Earth was spinning so fast and was so hot that NO life could take hold. Consider what our lives are compared to the mindless creatures who existed for billions of years before us. Consider how much better human life is now compared to even 500 years ago in terms of life expectancy alone. How is that not a better world?

And still - we're here but for a flicker of time in the great scheme of things. That has a beauty of its own, don'tcha think?

[Taverner]

57. As I said - Become the Gods we Worshipped

[Birdiesmom]

24. I don't believe in hell

...and I'm struggling to remain a Christian, for precisely the reasons you mention.

However, I'm sticking with Jesus, because of all the religions, he is the only figure I've found who advocates a true brotherhood of all humankind, and a God who suffers as long as any human suffers.

I've had to reject large portions of the Bible as culturally based and thus unreliable, in order to do this. This makes me a "bad Christian" in the eyes of nearly every Christian I know. But God comes off much as a thug in the Old Testament, and the concept of Hell in the New Testament doesn't make God and Jesus look that much better, since it condemns the overwhelming majority of humankind to never-ending torment.

However, despite the fact that Christianity has been used as the excuse throughout history for numerous wars (including the current one in Iraq, or haven't you heard Bush's declaration that God told him to invade?), the Inquisition, the Crusades, the abuse of black Americans, homosexuals, women and children, and witch hunts of various types -- Christianity has also been the impetus behind international vaccination programs to third-world countries, AIDS relief, famine relief, multiple soup kitchens and homeless shelters across the U.S., rehabilitation and job programs for Vietnam vets, and many programs that the US Government no longer provides.

Non-religious groups also provide these services, I know. Decent human beings abound, religious or not. But to love my fellow human beings as much as I love myself -- that's a goal I will never reach, but it's certainly something to strive for. So for now, I'm sticking with Jesus.

[Taverner]

27. Bahai teaches brotherhood of man too

Islam kinda does, but its more in the fashion of all are brothers in strict obedience to God.

[Birdiesmom]

28. Really? Cool!

In Bahai, are all people obligated to care for all others as though they are members of your family?

[Taverner]

29. I don't know - but I do know it also honors all beliefs as equally valid

[Birdiesmom]

34. Great!

I'll look into them...:)

[stopbush]

33. Jesus said you must HATE your family and love him,

and there's no way around that word "hate." The Greek word used in the scriptures is quite specific. It means "hate" as we all know the meaning. It ain't a metaphor.

BTW - you know, there was no fire and brimstone for the non-believers in the OT. Yahweh reserved his wrath for the Jews. If you were one of Yahweh's enemies (ie: not Israel), you might be slaughtered in one of his maniacal acts of genocide, but once you were dead, that was it. Your existence was over. There was no eternal hell or suffering for you.

No, it wasn't until the advent of gentle Jesus, meek and mild that the idea of an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell were advanced. And Jesus was quite giddy about this. It really rocked his boat. He speaks about it quite often - "believe in me, or fry." Where people get the idea that Jesus "advocates a true brotherhood of all humankind, and a God who suffers as long as any human suffers," is beyond me. Jesus LOVES human suffering...feels he OWES IT to those pesky non-believers, in fact.

I'll give you the best reason ever to not trust Jesus or believe in him: nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus laughed. The guy never laughed. He was supposedly fully human, but he never laughed. How can you trust a guy who never laughs?

Like most Christians I know, you're not unique - you take the parts of the myth you like and feel comfortable with and toss the rest. YOU don't believe in hell, but Jesus sure as hell believed in hell. In fact, he was the primary agitator for the concept.

Some faith you've got there.

[Birdiesmom]

36. Like I said before...

...the Bible is a human document, and the accounts of Jesus were written some forty years after he was crucified. How accurate do you think they are?

And why is it that Jesus, a Jew, suddenly starts believing in Hell, when there wasn't a Hell in the Old Testament? Well, when you start adding Gentiles into the mix -- Bingo! A belief in Hell develops. A Greek notion. From the non-Jewish writers of some of the New Testament. Few scholars of the Bible believe that Jesus spoke every word that is attributed to him.

If you take the Bible as legalistically, literally true, it falls apart. If Jesus wants us to truly hate our families, then why does he ask a disciple to take care of his mother at his crucifixion? Why does he decry the abuse of widows left without a means of support? Obviously, he did not mean for us to literally hate our families.

If the Bible is literally true, then why did Judas hang himself in penitence in one of the Gospels, but in Acts it reports that his body burst open and he died while plowing in a field that he bought with his ill-gotten thirty pieces of silver? And that is only one example of hundreds where the Bible contradicts itself. There is no resolving this conflict -- Judas either died by hanging or he didn't. One account is true and the other isn't. Or both are false.

Rigid adherence to every word in the Bible is impossible.

[stopbush]

46. You asked:

"If Jesus wants us to truly hate our families, then why does he ask a disciple to take care of his mother at his crucifixion?"

How do we know that the disciple he asked to take care of his mother wasn't a serial killer? Perhaps Jesus was sending his mother to a certain death. How do we know that the disciple assigned to Jesus' mother wasn't living in squalor, while a different disciple he could have sent her with was living in relative luxury? Is there any mention of what happened to her after the crucifixion?

Those who believe the good parts of the myth ASSUME that Jesus was doing his mom a loving favor with this act, but the fact is that he could have been giving his mom a big old "F! Y!" by sending her where he did.

Let's be honest: if Jesus REALLY cared about his immediate family, he would have stayed home and made an honest living and supported them, rather than traipsing off in the desert with his band of merry men, begging for food and shelter from people hither and yon. The guy deserted his family responsibilities. In the modern age, he'd be considered a ne'er-do-well.

If you're indoctrinated to believe the good parts about Jesus, you read it that way. You cut him an enormous amount of slack because he was "god," slack you wouldn't cut any other human being (which begs the question: do you really consider him to have been fully human?).

If you're freed of the indoctrination, you look at it differently.

[Taverner]

37. Of course he never laughed - he didn't exist

He was an amalgam of lots of characters, both biblical (Moses, King David) and non (Mithras, Mani)

[Birdiesmom]

39. Realistically speaking...

...the evidence is slight that the New Testament could have been written about a fictional character. Whether he possessed the powers ascribed to him or not, or whether he actually was resurrected, could be considered matters of conjecture. But that a man named Jesus was in the region and crucified and had a lot of followers is pretty much beyond doubt.

[Taverner]

40. If you are more interested, let me reccommend "The God who Wasn't There"

Its all about evidence that shows that Jesus didn't exist. Its a great book, an easy read and available on amazon I think...

[Birdiesmom]

43. Thanks, Taverner...

I'll look into it.

I'm not going to ignore the truth for my own convenience. I'll see how the evidence stands up.

[stopbush]

48. If you have the time, you might read this very interesting

essay on The Case Against A Historical Christ:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

Another good website is Pagan Origins of The Christ Myth:

http://www.pocm.info/

Good luck with your searching.

[Goblinmonger]

63. There are also a lot of similarities

between ulysses/odysseus and Jesus. It wasn't uncommon in the time to "reinvent" the myths and make them better.

[Rainbowreflect]

21. I don't believe that.

I use to piss off my Sunday school teachers. I remember asking one teacher how God could send someone to hell who died young in a third world country and never heard about Jesus. He did not have an answer.
I personally just believe in what Jesus taught about taking care of and loving one another, about not judging or hurting others. That is my faith.

[knitter4democracy]

23. He should've had an answer. It's in the Bible.

St. Paul wrote that if someone died without ever hearing the Gospel, he'd be judged according to his own faith. I've always wondered why we don't use that verse more.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Hey Birdiesmom

Yes, exactly!

Fun to read someone else saying just what I think, too!

[izquierdista]

15. A serious question

If hell is where you don't ever want to be, and heaven is sitting around singing the praises of Jee-zus, does that mean that atheists and believers will be sitting side by side in the afterlife? :think:

[Birdiesmom]

17. I don't know what the "afterlife" or heaven will be like

Whether Jee-zus would want you sitting around singing his praises or not, I don't know. That part in the Bible may have been put there by Jee-zus freaks. I don't remember Jee-zus personally asking folks to eternally sing his praises in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Atheists and "believers" will be with whoever God is. Jee-zus will be there, too. Whether we recognize each other or not, I don't know.

As the militant agnostic said, "I don't know, and you don't either." He (or she) is right -- none of us know for sure. That's why religions are called "faiths" instead of "facts."

I choose to be a Christian. It is a choice, not an obligation. More Christians should remember that, before they assume you should share their beliefs.

[cosmik debris]

22. I'm angry for a different reason

I'm angry because I have been made a second class citizen in my own country.

The religionistas have forced their superstition onto our money, into our public meetings, throughout our government and all over our national identity. They dominate public discourse and demand deferential treatment. They exercise rights and powers I can never hope to exercise.

And they do these things, not because they are right, but because they hold power. And apparently they have no conscience about abusing those with less power.

That's why I'm angry.

[Birdiesmom]

26. ...and the majority in power claim to be "discriminated against"...

...when someone calls them on it.

[Taverner]

44. Yep - that's a trick Hitler taught us

Even when the NAZI's were in power, and all the Jews were in camps, he always claimed that the German Race is persecuted by the Jews.

[WVRICK13]

51. A Wise Man

In the early 1980s I always had dinner at a particular restaurant in town. It was quite a nice establishment with a pub table where you came and sat with whoever was there and others joined throughout the meal. Being a small town I knew everyone and they knew me. As a single young gay man I enjoyed the company. Over the course of time I befriended a ninety year old retired Methodist minister whose wife had passed a few years before. He was a mental giant who used logic and compassion but never gave up his faith. He considered me his friend even though he knew I was gay and atheist. On a typical day I would pick up the good Dr. and drive him to dinner and return him after the meal. After hundreds of conversations about life, right and wrong and God in general he remarked to me, "my friend, you claim to be atheist but you are kind gentle and giving and God is not petty. You will find that upon death you will go to heaven even if you don't believe." We remained friends until his death and he never showed me anything but kindness and love. He was an example of what Christians should be, based on the teachings, and will always be remembered by me as one of the most decent people I ever met. Why can't all Christians follow what they profess?

[stopbush]

52. I have a problem with this statement:

"You will find that upon death you will go to heaven even if you don't believe."

I know your friend meant well, but really, what about those of us who don't care to live in heaven for eternity? What if we don't wish to spend an eternity worshiping some god, surrounded by a bunch of people that we couldn't stand when we were all confined to our earthly lives? What if we don't want to end up next to Jerry Falwell and Pol Pot and who in the hell knows who else for an eternity of serfdom, praising some divine being? Do we have the option of no heaven and no hell?

Are we allowed to go off peacefully into pure nothingness, or does god continue to exact some measure of servility from us, even though we don't want to attend the prom? Are we doomed to live in a celestial North Korea, where we worship the fearless and flawless leader day-in, day-out for time incomprehensible?

Sounds just awful to me.

BTW - what if your friend was a Hindu and he told you that, "You will find that upon death you will go to heaven even if you don't believe, and you will return to Earth, reincarnated to live as a sea slug."

Would you find that a statement of "kindness and love?"

[Taverner]

53. Well from science we can deduce that there is something resembling an afterlife

Given the right conditions.

Basically, the brain has to die last - or live long enough for said afterlife to occur.

When you die, you go into a dream state. This expands to last hours, even though it may last only a minute before the brain stops sending signals out.

Knowing Psychology, specifically dream psychology - when nerves start getting shut down, the dreams are more pleasant. Hence some of the pleasant dreams during REM sleep. Also, think Opium - what it does is reduce your nervous system, temporarily.

So when you die, you will go to Heaven in your own mind.

That works for me.

[stopbush]

55. I wouldn't call that an afterlife at all.

It's a simple distinction between conscious and unconscious existence. A person in a coma is living but in an unconscious state, aren't they? Or are you suggesting they're in an afterlife?

Not to be pedantic, but it's often helpful in these discussions to stick with the accepted definitions for things such as the afterlife, which most religions treat as some eternal heavenly existence free from a corporeal anchor.

Besides, "going to heaven" in one's own mind could be getting a date with a looker like Nora O'Donnell (if I can hijack the theme of an earlier thread from today).

[Taverner]

56. Well its the closest we get

That's all I'm saying

Considering we are a mass of cells, not even all the same species (see Mitochondrial Organisms) a good 5 minutes of consciousness before we die is good enough.

And the date with Nora O'Donnell - fine! You're arguing with this?

[stopbush]

58. Nora O'Donnell. Awgwgwg (drooling).

One of evolution's miracles.

[Taverner]

59. Only according to your genetic and patterned definitions of beauty

:P

[stopbush]

60. I'm comfortable with that.

[cosmik debris]

54. We have different definitions of wisdom

To me, wise people reject superstition.