Holocaust survivors halt talks with LDS

[keepCAblue]

Source: Deseret News (Utah Paper)

Holocaust survivors halt talks with LDS

Church surprised at 'unilateral' end to baptism negotiations
By Elaine Jarvik
Deseret News
Published: Tuesday, Nov. 11, 2008 12:38 a.m. MST

snip:

The survivors have complained that the church's practice of offering church membership to the deceased has allowed members to forward the names of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps for baptism by proxy, a practice that Michel believes alters their Jewishness.

"They tell me that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered, but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.


Read more: http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705262108,00.html?pg=1

---

Apparently it's not just glbts the mormons have offended. Jewish survivors of the holocaust are not so happy with the LDS either. Apparently the LDS church has, since 1995, been adding the names of hundreds of thousands of dead Jewish holocaust victims to their official church membership list and geneological database and baptizing these dead Jews "by proxy"

[babylonsister]

1. How DARE they?

I'm not religious, but what the LDS is saying is that their religion is 'better' than someone else's, someone who suffered so mightily because of that religion?

The nerve of them.

[aquart]

3. Yeah, sure makes them sound like Christians.

[Lerkfish]

6. FWIW, mormonism and christianity share very little in common

[Lucky 13]

11. Except for the pompous arrogance and their belief that their religion is the "only way"

[Lerkfish]

13. someone has some issues to work out, it seems.

anyhow, I'm making the point that calling mormons "christians" is a minor mislabeling.

[Lucky 13]

26. Yes, Mormons and Christians DO have LOTS of issues to work out.

Shoving their religion down our throats being issue #1.

They are both believers in christ, both adamantly working to convert the masses. Only difference is Mormons believe the bat-shit crazy story of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. But really I guess that bat-shit crazy story is no more or less believable than Noah putting 2 of every animal on a boat and floating around for 40 days or Jonah being swallowed by a whale, surviving in it's stomach, and being subsequently barfed up on a beach somewhere.

Bottom line is they have more similarities than differences.

[Lerkfish]

31. as I said, you seem to have issues.

and I hope you get them worked out someday.

[Lucky 13]

42. My, my, what an outstandingly arrogant, condescending, and uninformed post!

You've known me for a total of 2 posts now and you think you can diagnose my issues? I never made any personal accusations or assumptions about anyone. I just stated my opinion. So what is your fucking problem? Seems to me you are being EXTREMELY oversensitive about this topic.

This reminds me of the primaries. You are attacking someone personally because you disagree with them instead of conversing like adults and staying on topic. It's fucking pathetic and is evidence low IQ and poor communication skills.

Maybe you should pray about it.

[Lerkfish]

45. LOL!

you should reread my posts and then your posts and see who is really overreacting here.

[Zhade]

115. You are.

NT!

[LanternWaste]

49. Much like shoving politics down someone's throat

"Shoving their religion down our throats being issue #1."

Much like shoving politics down someone's throat, I'd imagine...


Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[roguevalley]

83. they share proseltyzing. that's about it.

[LanternWaste]

87. And telling "them"...

And telling "them" they they are wrong in their belief system, and we are right in ours....

And attempting to "convert" new voters.

And asking for money.

And blaming them for many of today's problems.

And...

[Zhade]

116. Except with politics, there's that whole "facts" and "evidence" stuff that religions lack.

Kind of a HUGE difference.

[iamahaingttta]

99. "Joseph Smith was called a prophet...

Dum dum dum dum dum
He started the Mormon religion
Dum dum dum dum dum."

Mormons really are just about the bat-shit craziest people I've ever met.
Sorry... I personally think they deserve all the shit that can be heaped upon them.

Sorry...

[Lucky 13]

105. I'm with you

[juno jones]

108. Christianity , and all the rest of the 'traditional'

religions are based on myths that have existed for many millenia. These myths tend to be universal and appeal to us on a deep symbolic level: think Joseph Campbell or Jung's collective unconscious. Granted, they are dumb when taken on a literalist level, but they were never really meant to be taken literally.

Scientology and Mormonism both lack any tie to traditional human symbolism. In fact, they often discourage exploration of that symbolism by rather draconian means. Control the psyche and it's symbols, control the person. Both groups are very exclusive, the adherent having to constantly prove a kind of party purity to even be allowed to participate. Both groups also have a pretty bad record of hounding former members, especially those who speak out.

I certainly do not understand fundamentalistic thought in any religion, but I have far more respect for religions whose roots have been with us as long as we've been human than I do for religions contructed out of authoritarian whole cloth by con men.

If you'd like some weird insight into what old L. Ron was doing pre-scientology and the circles he was running in, just google 'Jack Parsons' and the 'Babylon Working'. He was scamming the ceremonial magicians of LA (and stealing their wives) until he figured out how to pull the big con on humankind. And he was a shitty sci-fi author as well.

Peter Levenda's "sinister Forces" series has a lot of background on Joeseph Smith.

The 'force' and Star Wars Jedi 'religion' is probably more valid than scientology due to it's roots in human myth, primarily what Campbell called the 'Hero's Journey' funny that...

[Zhade]

117. Uh... so christians were never meant to believe their jesus literally rose from the dead?

I wish you were right, but I'm not seeing it, considering the staggering number of people who accept as true mythology for which there is no corroborating evidence.

[Nihil]

137. Originally, no, they weren't.

That "literally rose from the dead" stuff was only set in stone by
Nicea in 325 when Constantine decided to codify "One True Religion" (tm)
using a mixture of bits from other religions and the Reader's Digest
pick of the existing Christian scripture (which had been in turn influenced
by ...).

As you correctly point out, the mainstream Pauline variant that won out
*does* believe in the literal rising from the dead (even though to do that
requires them to gloss over the inconsistencies in the remaining books
of the Bible). The early Christians however were not quite as gullible.

:hi:

[lelgt60]

28. Right...unlike what you're doing.

Mormons claim to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Who are you to tell them they don't?

[Lerkfish]

32. really? is that exactly what I said?

do tell.

[lelgt60]

33. Essentially n/t

[Lerkfish]

36. if it pleases you to lie about what I said, that's your problem.

[lelgt60]

39. you said: calling mormons "christians" is a minor mislabeling

I said you were doing the same thing. Minor mislabeling.

As far as I can tell, and as far as the rest of the non-Christian world can tell, the single main point that differentiates Christianity from other religions is belief in Jesus Christ as they're Savior, belief that he died on the cross for their sins, belief that he was resurrected after 3 days and went to heaven.

Beyond that, you've got thousands of different Christian sects with widely varying views. Yet, you pick out the Mormons as the ones who are not technically Christian. I don't see it.

[Lerkfish]

41. here is one explanation of the differences between mormons and christians.

I found this on the internet, and although I did not write it, I think it brings up some interesting points:


------------
Why Mormons Are Not Christian.

First: Mormons do not follow or believe in the historic Jesus Christ of the Bible, but rather in a different Jesus. This is why most Biblical Christians emphatically insist that Mormons are not Christians. Let me explain.

The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted "man" who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He "earned" godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of "their" world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression."

Note the following quote from the Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

--------------

Mormons believe that God was once mortal. That directly is in conflict with Christian beliefs.

but hey, to each their own. I'm just saying there are profound differences in the two, therefore labeling Mormons as Christians is a minor mislabeling.

[lelgt60]

48. OK...I agree - big differences - not enough for me to call them non-Christian, though

The thing is, Mormon's believe they're Christians, isn't that enough?

I get very sensitive to someone from one competing religion making a claims about another competing religion (and I have no idea whether you are or are not from another competing Christian religion). I was born Jewish. I've read what other religions have said about Jews.

[Lerkfish]

51. enough for what, though? No one except the mormons are engaging in this practice

of praying for deceased persons of other religions.

therefore, its a minor mislabeling to imply that christians are doing this when in fact Mormons are the only ones doing it.

I don't think making accurate claims about differences between two religions is out of bounds. I've not insulted them, I'm merely saying there are some fundamental belief differences. Fundamental enough, IMHO, to consider them not the same religion.

[Zhade]

120. Mormons are christians. By definition, christians *are* doing this.

But only SOME, not all.

[marshall]

103. It's all in the semantics

Fundamentalists and other "mainline" Christians believe in a sort of trademarked use of the word "Christian" that goes beyond a foundational setting in Christ and moves toward a standardized set of beliefs. So while Mormons are not Christians™ they could be considered Christians, in my opinion.

[lelgt60]

107. Love it - great explanation!

[Zhade]

119. "Mormon's believe they're Christians, isn't that enough?" Yes.

That's all it takes to be considered a christian.

Of course, far too many christians here and elsewhere use the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, but just because they dismiss their fellow christians as such doesn't make it so.

[JuniperLea]

46. They named themselves...

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... I think that qualifies them as a Christian sect/cult right alongside Baptists, Church of Christ, Assembly of God, etc.

[Lerkfish]

54. They may consider themselves so

doesn't mean I am not free to point out major differences between the two.

In this regard (what the thread is about) are there any OTHER churches besides LDS that are researching geneology charts and praying for the dead against the wishes of the current relatives?

I don't think there are. If I'm right, then it would be more accurate to criticize this as a mormon activity.

[JuniperLea]

79. It is being characterized as a Mormon activity

And the Mormons are being characterized as a Christian sect/cult. Is there something untrue about this?

[Lerkfish]

I entered this thread to respond to aquart's post above

in which he exclusively assigned this activity to "christians". I sought to bring up the distinction between mormons and christians. Is there anything untrue about what I have stated?

[Zhade]

121. Yes - that mormons aren't christians. They are.

NT!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. It's not just praying for the dead--it's baptizing them by proxy

and enrolling them as members of their religion.

That's what's unique about Mormonism.

[Zhade]

113. Agreed. People who believe mythology is real DO have issues to work out.

NT!

[Realityhack]

145. No true scottsman.

Mormon's are christian.

[AlbertCat]

61. All religions have this problem.

[CubicleGuy]

16. Little in common?

FWIW, mormonism and christianity share very little in common

Yeah, just the Bible and a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Redeemer of the world, that's all.

[Lerkfish]

17. ever read the book of Mormon?

a lot of what LDS goes by is in there vs. the bible.

but at any rate, If you possess plenty of hate then you can easily hate both mormons and christianity. I'm only pointing out there is much that they do NOT have in common.

[CubicleGuy]

19. Yes, I've read it; I'm LDS myself.

The primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is to be another witness of the divinity of Christ.

[Lerkfish]

21. then you should understand my point.

[heliarc]

24. Indignance at the LDS and other Christian denominations

is justified and has nothing to do with hatred. The number of hateful things that have been done in the name of Christ is too long to list here.

Suffice to say that the gall it takes for the LDS to baptize victims of the holocaust and disturb their rest is just the sort of hurtful dogma that Religious orders of many stripes go on perpetrating decade after decade. Being angry about that sort of pigheadedness in no way classifies as bigoted hatred. And identifying patterns of hurtful dogma doesn't either.

Mormon's deserve criticism for this stupidity. Enough already.

[Lerkfish]

25. "enough" what? I agree that mormons deserve criticism for this.

[heliarc]

30. Sorry...

meant to respond to the Mormon. :hi:

[Zhade]

122. Pointing out that you are in error is hardly "hate".

NT!

[Zenlitened]

59. LOL. Mormons are not True Scotsmen.

:rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

127. Mormons concider themselves to be Christian.

[laconicsax]

130. Except the basic theology. The rest is details.

[Realityhack]

144. UM... what?

Mormon's ARE Christians.

[roguevalley]

80. more like scientology with its celestial kingdom stuff and weird

sci fi vibe

[VPStoltz]

81. They have this nutty idea that you do not have to declare JC your personal savior.

As long as your uncle or cousin - years later - declares such for you, you are saved.
So what's the point in living a good life when someone else can just come along and say, "Oh, he wasn't so bad. I think I will do him a favor and save his ass."
Like I said, NUTTY!

[Realityhack]

143. WTF are you talking about?

All religions think they are 'better'. Like most religions the LDS think you have to be a member to get into the best seats in heaven. They worked out a creative solution to the problem of all the people who were born before they existed etc...

They perform a baptism ceremony that they say the person can accept or reject in the after life.
If they really believe the complete BS that is their religion... they will feel obligated to help others get to the good seats. And they believe in free will to chose to accept or not. Nothing particularly amazing there.

Some people from other religions think this activity desecrates their dead. That is their silly religious belief. Somehow if I say I baptize so and so as a priest of the FSM in the afterlife... if they chose to be one... it alters... something.

The chemical breakdown process continues not to give a shit. History remains unaltered. It is just a bunch of nut jobs yelling at other nut jobs for doing nutty shit that interferes with the first groups nutty beliefs.

[skooooo]

2. "Mormon victims of the Holocaust"

Wow, I hadn't thought of that angle. In a way, it could be seen as an effort to rewrite history.

[xchrom]

4. recommend

[Metta]

5. Yes, this is an incredible act of arrogance. Who says these people need them?

Aside from the LDS's agendas and attachments.

[Dennis Donovan]

7. Does this mean we can turn dead Mormons into Muslims?

How dare they attempt such a thing?:grr:

Recommended.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. They also go to genealogy sites and harvest names

of families there. Happened to me--and they even "baptized" LIVING members of my family by proxy WITHOUT permission. When I complained to the church, they said they knew nothing about it--and of course never pursued it.

I'm all for doing something "by proxy" to Mormons because of this--someone suggested same-sex marriage by proxy--maybe something else as well--I'd just like them to understand how upsetting and intrusive their practice of "proxy" is.

[Dennis Donovan]

10. I cencelled my (LDS-owned) Ancestry.com account last Thursday because of...

...their opposition to Prop H8 - this only reaffirms my disgust with them.

[Ian David]

23. Not OPPOSITION to Prop 8, but I think we know what you mean. n/t

[Dennis Donovan]

56. My head is up my ass lately...

I meant their SUPPORT of Prop H8!

:dunce:<-me

[Gullvann]

68. How about same sex marriage

with muslims? :-P

Should create a lot of by proxy outrage all over the place.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

82. Personally, I have no problem with it

I know homosexuals who are Sufi spiritual teachers, and high in the hierarchies of their Orders.

[Gullvann]

91. Cool. I think more people should chill out, like the sufis :-)

Perhaps you can be the person in charge of the wedding ceremonies then? :-)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

104. date and time

I'm an ordained minister.

[roguevalley]

85. they photocopy municipal records and church records going back

to Adam all over the world and add them to their databases. they used them to harvest postumous converts. Too bad they have so little class regarding privacy and the right to choose. Oh right. That sort of sums up their world view about people.

RV, who grew up immersed in mormons and jehovah witnesses

[Zhade]

123. "records going back to Adam"

Nominated as the unintentionally funniest comment in this thread! :p

[Realityhack]

147. I second this nomination. n/t

[Realityhack]

146. Interesting....

"Too bad they have so little class regarding privacy and the right to choose."
Except they claim the actual dead person does get to choose. So... isn't that giving the choice to the most relevant person?

[rucky]

9. This is some wierd shit.

99% of religion just doesn't make sense. I suppose it would just be way too easy to focus on the 1% that does.

[RCinBrooklyn]

12. Total gutter religion.

[Gullvann]

70. Is such language really necessary? (eot)

[Mithreal]

86. Yes. eot

[Zhade]

124. Hey, religion might be an obscene word, but as adults we can handle it.

NT!

[Zhade]

125. dupe

dupe

[Realityhack]

148. as uposed to??? n/t

[CubicleGuy]

14. Baptism for the dead is scriptural

See 1st Corinthians 15:29. It's mentioned briefly as support for the argument being made by Paul that there will be a resurrection of the dead. He basically asks the question, "Why are proxy baptisms being performed if there is no resurrection of the dead?"

Mormon temple baptisms don't alter in any way the records gathered to prove the existence of those for whom the temple work is being done.

[heliarc]

27. Cue creepy theremin music.

Sorry, everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe, and baptizing dead people who didn't believe your religion to begin with is just dogmatic arrogance.

Edited to be less offensive.

[Mithreal]

95. Yeah, we don't want to offend arrogance and creepiness.

It's a damn shame that we cannot offend these folks.

Mormons will become the new GOP base? That's another reason for calling them out for their bad behavior.

I realize religion's importance to people, but religion seems to be one of a few things holding back the world from true progress. I can't even see how anyone can call themselves progressive that doesn't keep their own personal religion to themselves. Just me though.

[heliarc]

112. Not just you... I agree...

Sometimes I just think that it doesn't help my argument if I flail around and call people names...

[htuttle]

40. And they'll need SHOES too!

Shoes for the Dead!

[kwassa]

53. Shoes for Industry!

Hi, I'm Joe Beets.

What chance does a returning deceased war veteran have for that good paying job, more sugar, and the free mule you've been dreaming of? Well, think it over. Then take off your shoes.

Now you can see how increased spending opportunities means harder work for everyone, and more of it too. So do your part, Joe. Join with millions of your neighbors and turn in your shoes. For Industry!

[juno jones]

110. LOL!

cheers for Firesign Theater!

[Book Lover]

57. There is the chance that they will, unfortunately, survive as the only

genealogical records, though. As they record false information about a person, a descendant ~100 or so years from now many find only the false Mormon records for their ancestors. Historical documents and documents intended for historical purposes are too important to toy with.

[roguevalley]

93. scrape Paul off Christianity and you would like it. I gave up on his

sorry mean ass a while ago and its like being weightless.

[roguevalley]

94. scrape Paul off Christianity and you would like it. I gave up on his

sorry mean ass a while ago and its like being weightless.

[Rebubula]

15. I have always thought...

...that people who try to convert another (Mormons going door to door etc) are basically saying 'Hey...your god sucks and mine is cool - everything that you hold dear is a lie and I have the truth'

Nothing pisses me off more than that.

/Well....maybe the Dallas Cowboys...

[CubicleGuy]

18. Didn't Jesus send out missionaries?

people who try to convert another (Mormons going door to door etc) are basically saying 'Hey...your god sucks and mine is cool - everything that you hold dear is a lie and I have the truth'

Yes, it was so annoying when Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the gospel to "all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

[katandmoon]

73. Since there is zero historical evidence for Jesus there is also zero historical evidence

documenting any of "his" conversion activities.

[Zhade]

126. Indeed.

Oh, and Josephus was a forgery, people. Even biblical scholars admit that much.

[barbtries]

78. i think he did

but instead of saying my god's cooler than your god, he said i am your god. just because jesus did it or said it according to the myth - or your version of the myth - does not a. prove the existence of god or b. verify any of the facts of his life.

[roguevalley]

96. Jesus operated within the defines of his own belief, that is, as an

orthodox Jew who went and taught and showed his own people that they needed to follow their religions dictates as laid down by Moses and not the quizling crap of temple tithes and the hierachy that was Rome supported and corrupted.

Christianity is a reflexion of Paul's fantasies about a "Christ", not Jesus. He said more than once that Jesus was uninteresting and not important. His creation, 'The Christ' was all that mattered. He never
even knew Jesus and was at HUGE loggerheads with Jesus' appointed successor, James the Just.

God, I love historical religion.

[babylonsister]

20. Heh.

Welcome to DU! Cowboys piss me off, too! :D

[Lucky 13]

29. Word up. Mormonism sucks. Evangelism sucks. And most of all... Cowboys suck.

Go Skins.

[lelgt60]

34. The difference is, next year, the Cowboys might not suck n/t

[Lucky 13]

43. LOL. No. Even when they win superbowls, they still inherently suck.

It's their nature.

[Ian David]

22. If anyone has dead, Mormon relatives, I can baptize them into The Universal Life Church for you. n/t

[autorank]

139. Time to reactiveate that membership

Maybe Universal Life Church folks can start a database to negate conversions;)

Why go to divinity school when you can just buy the damn thing? is what I say.

[ladywnch]

35. sounds more like a cult politcal party. n/t

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

37. LDS and religion

Another example of "Memes Gone Wild."

[Marrah_G]

38. They can baptize me all they want when I die- it still won't change who I am.

Makes no difference to me

[keepCAblue]

44. So you don't care that they can distort your religious identity...

...by altering your (and likely your descendants') religious identity in their genealogical records. The Mormon's have the largest, most often sourced genealogical records in this country. So, two or three generations from now, when your decedents want to trace their family roots, they will see that you were a member of the Mormon Church, which would fraudulently alter the HISTORY of, not just you, but your family tree as well.

The other reason to be outraged by this: By conscripting non-mormons into their membership, without the non-mormons knowledge or consent, the mormon church artificially inflates their membership numbers, giving them a highly distorted perception of presence and power in terms of census counts and political influence.

Is that okay with you too?

[Marrah_G]

47. I would prefer they not lie- but the lying is on them.

It makes no difference to who I am.

After death I will still be who I am.

My children will still be who they are.

My grandchildren will still be who they are.

And so on and so on.

[keepCAblue]

50. Very short-sighted and self-centered attitude...

I guess for some people it is really just "all about me" and the world revolves entirely around you. This is also a political issue. Church's membership numbers determines their power within the communities and within the realm of political influence. This is why both mormons and catholics, in their own perverted ways, oppose abortion and pressure their members to have as many children as possible. It has nothing to do with the morality or immorality of aborting a fetus--these are artifical constructs designed by the church to mask their true agenda of increasing their membership numbers. The more members a church can claim, the more people to 1) contribute money to the church; 2) evangelize and recruit on behalf of the church, and 3) create majority status within populations so to control the political and social climate of a city, state or even a country.

[Marrah_G]

55. Call it what you want- I just fail to see how it impacts on my life.

Do I think it is stupid and silly- absolutely.

Do I think it is something worth getting myself all worked up over? No.

I cannot stop someone from prayng over my name and writig it in some book.

I can change how I react to that action or even the suggest of such a future action.

I see life and death a bit differently then you do.

We are al entitled to our viewpoints, even when those views disagree.

The insults and the name-calling say more about you then about me.

[keepCAblue]

64. whatever...

some people care about the greater good and some others just care about themselves.

I suppose I'm more invested in caring because it just so happened that the mormon church, by virtue of their power, just took away my fundamental civil rights. Maybe next time it'll be you who they come after...

[Marrah_G]

69. have a clue

"they" have been going after my kind for a very long time.

I am well aware of what the mormon and Catholic churches have done in CA and elsewhere. I believe they should have their exempt status taken away and I will be making an effort to not have any dealing with any businesses that support either religious group.

Just because I choose to react in a way different then you do does NOT make me the enemy. I am your friend in this matter.

[customerserviceguy]

52. I've never looked into their genealogical records

but aren't they just microfilms of existing books that are on file with official registrars all over the world? And even if they add their own notations, wouldn't it be obvious when you come across someone's baptism taking place sixty years after they died?

Mormon beliefs are indeed goofy at best, but how is this fundamentally different from someone in a church praying for a dead person who was not a member of that church?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

74. No, it is not just records microfilmed

Their website includes family trees, and many have no citations for the information--no links back to court records, cemetery records, etc, etc.

As for the difference between baptism and praying for someone--the former makes you a member of the group, the latter does not. And when they are baptizing living people by proxy (which they have done in my own family) without their consent, it is intrusive and very upsetting.

[customerserviceguy]

77. Don't you have to see the voodoo doll

for it to have an effect on you? It's my understanding that these ceremonies are private, no outsiders allowed in. And they don't send you a "Congratulations, you may have already won your own planet!" card, do they?

But thanks for the insight on Mormon records. I'm adopted, and they are of no use to me whatsoever.

[RedLetterRev]

60. And for the record,

their genealogy is for shit, too. As a genealogist, I've found their records to be incomplete, inaccurate, full of errors, and mostly crap. They're not a bit careful and terribly hasty. Anyone who's serious about doing their genealogy is best-off doing their own. If their genealogy is supposed to be a perequisite to their own version of end-times, then their god's gonna be pissed at the slap-happy, half-assed job they're doing. Show-dogs have better tracking of their lineages. Anyone who uses Ancestry or any Mormon-based source is asking for a lot of faked-up inaccuracies.

BTW: No reputable genealogical society accepts their work. None. Not one.

And personally, I find their "sealing"/baptism in absentia to be offensive and an invasion. My religion (or lack thereof) is my business. How dare they presume.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

75. You are absolutely right

I will look on someone's DAR papers with more respect for the research than a pedigree chart based on LDS stuff.

[RedLetterRev]

88. Bingo

They're one of the ones who won't. There are a lot of DAR members in my family and I've been gifted with a lot of their work to compile into a family library (talk about LUCKY!!). There are other family members in societies that won't accept anything from LDS or any computer-based sources like Ancestry strictly because they're unreliable and often completely unsourced. As for me, I've had to go back and copy endless pages from accepted works, haunt courthouses, copy legal documents, wills, family Bibles -- those are acceptable. But LDS stuff, meh, sadly no.

Serious genealogy is serious hard work and can take decades to complete. (You already know that, but other DU'ers might not realize :) )

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

98. Support

I agree with your post. Well said.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

71. I've done genealogical research for 30 years

and have learned not to trust information from the LDS site. They gather "information" without citation, and have been known to continue perpetrating misinformation about individuals and families.

[barbtries]

76. my guess would be

that the inflated membership numbers are the primary goal of the exercise.

[Momgonepostal]

101. Can I clarify something here?

I'm LDS and have submitted names of my own relatives for baptism and other LDS temple ordinances. I, and the church view baptism, etc. as necessary for exaltation. I realize, not everyone feels that way. But when I think of my ancestors, I don't think of them as now Mormons. They are still the people they were...Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Huguenots, or whatever the case was. The difference is, they've now had those ordinances done for them, so if they choose to accept them in the afterlife, they can. If they choose not to, they don't have to. I certainly don't view them as automatically Mormons, though. We believe in free will, both before and after death.

Secondly, this temple work does not affect church membership numbers. Dead people aren't counted in the membership totals.

Another thing, current church policy says you can only submit names of relatives. So currently, the only way I could do temple work for holocaust victims is if I was one of their descendents. I could have work done for MY grand parents, but not YOUR grand parents.

I don't view this as altering history. My relatives lived the lives they lived, practiced the religions they practiced, regardless of what I do in 2008.

[juno jones]

114. I personally don't understand why any human

NEEDS the blessing of an established church. We are who we are, if truly spiritual, all the better. But what does any self-proclaimed hierarchy have to do with anything? You can be mormon without the intercessing elders, you can be catholic without the intercessing priest. Why do you think that you need someone to arbitrate between yourself and god?

My family and I need no baptism. Nor does my husband's family who has a mormon in it,and thus there are probably several unwillingly 'baptised' pagans that are considered 'related' by your church. It is a matter of personal choice and if you do not understand that tenet of Christianity then you are not what you claim to be.

'Spare the child and spoile the rod, I have not sold my soul to God.' Patti Smith

[semillama]

109. I don't think they actually alter the primary documents though

I have friends who have actually done research at the facilities in SLCs and they say it's all copies of primary documents, like census data and wills. I think the proxy baptismal records would be in a different record altogether, and might not be accessible to non-Mormon researchers.

One of my buddies did some research there, and he found out why you don't see female missionaries - they're all at the research facilities. He said he barely escaped!

[Momgonepostal]

136. I was a female missionary...

and the ones we have in our ward our female. But your right, there aren't as many of them.

[Realityhack]

149. Um... do they actualy change anyones affiliation in their records?

Do you have evidence of such?

Or are they doing what they claim and noting that they did a ceremony that they think will give the dead person a choice?

From your post:
"without the non-mormons knowledge or consent,"
That is not what they claim in any location. Care to demonstrate your claim?

[LanternWaste]

58. Ironic this...

Ironic this...

When the YFZ Ranch was raided some months back, there were some on DU alleging that TX Child Protective Services had engaged in genocide against the FLDS.

I wonder if those same, not-to-be-named posters will now allege that the Jewish people offended by this are engaging in their overly-broad definitions of genocide also...?




The irony would be a visceral satisfaction if not for the fact that too many Americans are being deprived of civil rights.

[get the red out]

66. Missionaries in Utah

Can't people just send missionaries all over Utah knocking on doors telling them very politely that their religion is full of shit in the most persuasive way possible? That would be a plan! There should be a group that does this. Of course they would call that "persecution", just like people thought trying to stop FLDS child abuse was an affront to freedom of religion.

Why do these messed up Mormons always have to win? They have done more to damage the idea of marriage in this country than all the gay folks on Earth could do if they tried!

[LanternWaste]

84. That's the rub.

"...very politely that their religion is full of shit in the most persuasive way possible?"

That's the rub. Regardless of whether it's religious proselytizing (witnessing) or secular proselytizing (canvassing for a political party/organization, or your scenario), people tend to get offended when we tell them of our own beliefs, thus invalidating their own-- or in other words, forcing our beliefs down other people's throats.




"They have done more to damage the idea of marriage in this country than all the gay folks on Earth could do if they tried!"

Upon reflection, there's simply no way on earth I could disagree with the intent behind that statement.

[The Sushi Bandit]

62. NOT LBN: This Story was Posted Yesterday in Religion thread!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x186888

[keepCAblue]

89. The article was dated today...N/T

[9119495]

63. It is stuff like this that will sink any Romney campaign...

let us hope the republican party is dumb enough to nominate him.

[marco86]

65. Can all of the dead baptized Jews

Vote by proxy for a new grand poohbah to lead the morman church?

[AlbertCat]

67. More religious vilification of others

And it goes both ways. The Mormons are idiots and the Jews are too. Who cares what Mormons think they are doing if you are Jewish? How do you take away someone's "Jewishness"....especially if they're dead?

Arguments and concerns of this nature are absurd in the extreme. Why adults would bother themselves with such foolish and divisive notions is beyond comprehension!

Religion is just stupid! It's all made up shit. Mormon stuff is made up shit. Jewish stuff is older made up shit. So now we have fighting over made up shit.

Religion is just sooooo good for a world society!!!!

[Marrah_G]

72. Agreed!

However- does that make my religion petrified, fossilized or mumified shit, cause I know it's older then made up shit and even shit thats older then made up shit.

[LanternWaste]

90. Much like philosophy and politics...

"It's all made up shit"

Much like philosophy and politics...

[Lordquinton]

97. TO you it's made up

But to the people who were killed because of what they made up, it runs a little deeper. I may think that it's all a load of crap that should be tossed out the window, but I can still respect them for their willingness to stand up for their convictions.

It's also a matter of rewriting history, down the line it may be a problem when we have someone claiming Mormans were killed in the holocaust. Sounds silly, but it's true.

And while we're at it, isn't the USA just some silly made up thing too? I mean, why worry about it? It's the matter of sticking up for everyone, lest they pull us down one at a time.

[roguevalley]

100. I appreciate the feelings Jews have about this given their history.

There are very few groups that have faces organized, systematic efforts over the length of time they have to make them disappear. Think about it and you will see their side and understand their feelings. If you take away someone's religion, language and history, they disappear.

[Meshuga]

134. I don't blame you for not knowing much about judaism

But identity and survival is what Judaism is mostly about. I know it is hard to see this through the lenses of a society that has a Christian majority, even when we're not a Christian, but that's what it is.

I don't think the holocaust survivors are really worried about the supernatural implications of baptism. I mean, who gives a shit? So I don't think it has religious implications in that sense. The holocaust survivors are annoyed at a group doing something they deem disrespectful even after they already asked to be respected.

I know it's hard to understand other cultures and what would piss other people off. We live in our bubble of ethnocentrism that makes it easy for us to say that other people's customs and philosophies are stupid. But I am sure that if someone did something that rubbed you in the wrong way, then you would ask this person to stop. But if this person continues and ignores you regardless of your plea, then I am sure you would be pretty upset. That pretty much sums up their complaint.

[Midwest_Doc]

92. Help Me Understand

1. Which religion does NOT believe it is superior to all others?
2. If one is secure in his/her faith, how can a proxy baptism affect them one way or the other?

Just trying to understand.

[JonQ]

102. I'd say both groups are acting childishly on this

I never understood the Mormons baptizing post-mortem either, it seems meaningless as the ceremony ought to be voluntary to mean anything at all.

Then again they don't have any magical powers, these baptisms aren't going to change anything. Pray over them all you want they're still Jews, they died as Jews and all these baptisms do is to make Mormons look even creepier and crazier. Making a big deal out of it makes it seem as if they are actually accomplishing something with it.

I think a thanks-but-no-thanks approach, followed by a cold shoulder would be the best.

You don't get crazy people to act less crazy lending credence (even unintentionally) to their actions.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. It's disrespectful

The Jews who died in the Holocaust were killed precisely because they were Jews. For the Mormons to claim them is highly offensive.

Imagine, for instance, if some of the far-right Republicans held a ceremony in which they initiated FDR, Harry Truman, JFK, and LBJ posthumously into the Republican Party.

[booley]

106. Why?

Going beyond just the sheer offensiveness of this, why do it all?

What does LDS gain?

[Zhade]

111. Such an offensive practice.

Yes, it's all meaningless bullshit, but still.

[IndianaGreen]

118. Bigotry is an equal opportunity employer

LDS saw Blacks as bearing the "Mark of Cain" until George Romney lobbied his church leaders to drop that part of their canon.

[cosmik debris]

131. The Jews should "circumcise by proxy"

Imagine the fit that the LDS would have if some Synagogue held a circumcision ceremony for Brigham Young!

[Meshuga]

132. I was going to use that

You were quicker. :-)

I volunteer to be the certified mohel for the Mormons. But I warn that I use a butter knife in the bris ceremonies I perform.

[cosmik debris]

133. I would have used a 5 lb. double bitted axe

Paul Bunyan style.

Sorry I stole your punch line, but it was too good to pass up!

[Meshuga]

135. ROFLl! At least that would be a quick procedure! n/t

[beam me up scottie]

138. Infuriating.

Absolutely unacceptable behaviour no matter what you believe or don't.

The victims' families are basically helpless, can this practice be halted using legal means?

[Meshuga]

140. They have their freedom to exercise their religion

So these families have their right to halt talks which is a bonus given the type of conversation this group of Mormons usually want to have! :-)

[beam me up scottie]

141. You're being characteristically reasonable about this.

I don't know what to say, Mr. Wiggles, I'm sorry for this desecration.

[Meshuga]

142. I am sorry too

But I see this more of a "desecration" of their own organization in the eyes of our community.

I guess this makes it easier for us to turn them down next time they knock on our doors. :-)

I am also of the opinion that I would not care if these people baptized me after I am dead because I would not be around to really care. But I would be pissed off if they disrespected a close family member of mine who has passed away when I am around to see them do it. And that's what this is about.

[Realityhack]

150. BMUS... I think this is the first time I have disagreed with you.

In answer to your question no. The practice is clearly within their legal rights. I think that avenue may in fact have been tried and failed... I don't recall off hand.

Here is the thing. IF the LDS where actually claiming these people as members, or Mormon holocaust victims, or something similar... I would absolutely agree. But as far as I know that is just propaganda coming from another group of nutters.

Fundamentally what the LDS church claims it is doing is a ceremony by which they provide a dead person with the option of accepting membership in the afterlife. Of course we both know is bullshit but...
Offering an option is not in my opinion very offensive.
As I am sure you know the LDS church believes that without this option being provided those dead people are limited in the afterlife. They think they are helping by giving the person a choice they didn't have in life.

In my opinion... so the fuck what. Dead is dead. Religious BS is religious BS. Nobody is choosing anything in the afterlife. The Mormons are just saying some silly stuff and dunking people in some water in their own buildings.

As long as they are not making claims respecting the decisions of the dead I don't care. Give everyone the choice to become official card carrying disciples of Satan posthumously if you like. As long as it is a 'choice' and no claims are made about what becomes of it.

Unless someone says X person is/was/has accepted being a member of Y group... no harm IMO. Sure it may be mildly offensive just like someone praying for you is but I wouldn't want to ban it.

[Meshuga]

151. What would the propaganda be?

And what would be the intent of such propaganda?