I have serious problems with the Bible, especially the Old Testament.

[raccoon]

For instance, Joshua, who "fit the battle of Jericho"

"Joshua was appointed by Moses to succeed him as leader of the Israelites upon Moses' death. The first major part of his book is when he commanded the subsequent conquest of Canaan. As the Israelites came to the Jordan River, the waters parted, as they did for Moses at the Red Sea. The first major battle was in Jericho, a heavily fortified city just five miles west of the Jordan River, northwest of the Dead Sea which he took by following God's instruction, ordering his host to march around the city for seven days, whereupon the city walls fell, just as God said they would. The Israelites then slaughtered "every living thing" inside Jericho and completely destroyed the city except for Rahab and her family, who had aided the two spies sent by Joshua to check out the city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua

Every.living.thing. Men, women, children and animals. And this person is one of the heroes of the Bible? And little kids learn about his misdeeds in Sunday school? You might as well make a Sunday school lesson out of Germany's invasion of Russia in the 1940's. Or My Lai. It'd make as much sense.

And how about a god who'd favor this sort of behavior, part the Red Sea, instruct Joshua how to conquer Jericho? :shrug:

[benddem]

1. I have

a problem with the entire old testament. Bunch of fairy tales-myths, creation stories.

[raccoon]

7. I agree, most of it is stories. What I can't understand is how so many people

can take stories like the Joshua one and make out that these show how wonderful and powerful God is. :shrug:

[pokerfan]

16. Genesis 22:1-24

in which God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son. Turned out it was just some kind of bullshit loyalty test. Apparently God just wanted to see if Abraham would do it. Judeo-Christian morality? :shrug:

[cynatnite]

2. I have no problem with the bible at all...

just like I have no problem with Mother Goose or any other fictional tale. Well, I wouldn't let children read the bible with all the violence in it.

[KittyWampus]

3. the text of the Old Testament was intentionally written for those with a knowledge of Kabbalah

Hebrew letter have numerical and symbolic meaning.

In short, the Esoteric meaning is largely absent from the Old Testament to those who don't study Kabbalah.

Historical and Cultural truths are wrapped in symbolic meaning.

Literalists and Fundamentalists are missing a great deal.

:)

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

5. Good point!

Those who use those "flat earth" texts for modern wisdom have missed their original context and meaning.

[juno jones]

14. Thank you

You explained it better than I could.

Add to the mix the number of translations, often performed with an agenda in mind. For example, King James and his hard-on for witches and changing 'you shall not suffer a poisoner' to 'you shall not suffer a witch' in his version. Literalism is misguided at best.

I once read a book about the esoteric meanings of genesis. I'm afraid I cannot remember the title now, I lent the book out and lost it years ago. But the kabbalistic translation of genesis actually dovetails quite well with our modern theories of physics and the 'big bang'.

Someone once said, "Thou shall not read the bible for it's prose". I would add, you need some background in symbology and allegory to understand it.

[lapfog_1]

4. you fail to understand that the Israelites were "God's children"

whereas the Canaanites were, er, not.

The first tenet of most religions is to demonize (literally) your enemy so that it's righteous when you slaughter them, even the children. Or make them slaves, or rape them or... well you get the picture.

[Pyrzqxgl]

6. Gods are sure mean SOBs.

It is nice to hear that preacher who introduced McCain admit that other gods besides his own exist. Right out of the
Old Testament. Ah! Tradition.

[stopbush]

8. It'a all make believe, just like other works of fiction.

Horror stories that have lost their luster 4,000 years later.

[beam me up scottie]

9. 'You must lay the town under the curse of destruction, the town and everything in it.'

'You must lay the town under the curse of destruction, the town and everything in it.'

[elocs]

10. In my time here at DU I have learned that it is pointless to get into religious discussions.

Religion is about faith--you either believe or you don't. At this point in my life I am at best an agnostic, but I try and respect others' religious beliefs. Here at DU there is an open antagonism and hostility to religion, particularly Christianity which is routinely ridiculed, and religious beliefs are not given a lot of respect so there is not much room for any kind of honest dialogue.

[raccoon]

11. Maybe because in RL Christianity is openly antagonistic and hostile to non-Christians and other

religions.

'Christian' animal sacrifice

There has been a call for all REAL Christians (i.e. those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, who I doubt would ever condone such actions as are being done to torment Darla Wynne) to send letters of condolence to Ms. Wynne through the South Carolina ACLU. This type of thing should be an affront to all thinking humans across the world. This woman's cat was killed and hanged for her to find. Her house has been vandalized multiple times. All because she chose a religion that teaches "an it harm none, do as you will."

United States: A parrot belonging to a Wiccan woman who launched a legal challenge to her town's unconstitutional prayers has been slaughtered in a highly ritualistic manner. Darla Wynne, of Great Falls, South Carolina, came home one night last week to find her parrot, Little One, beheaded with his heart cut out. A note warned her she would be next. It is just the latest in a long series of incidents.

Many of the town's 2,200 residents regard Wynne as a witch and disapprove of her pagan faith, she said. The vandalism has ranged from destruction of her cars to several of her animals being poisoned, Wynne said.

No one will say anything, Wynne said. They think they're protecting their own....

...Wynne said she has endured numerous verbal and written threats. She received by mail a booklet, Thou Shalt not Suffer a Witch to Live, and said a man yelled at her, Witch, you're going down.

Twice last week before her bird was killed, Wynne said she received threats in the mail.


Parrot's death latest threat to woman in prayer case - The Herald (Rock Hill), 17th August 2004.

http://www.nonfluffy.com/archives/2004_08.html

[elocs]

13. No, because here fundamentalist and extremist Christianity is held up as the strawman punching bag

that gives license to ridicule and spew venom against all Christians. That portion gets to represent all Christianity. Hatred of Bushco and the rightwing here hardly holds a candle to that shown towards Christianity. I wonder why that is? Funny, because I would bet that there are thousands of DUers who are actively practicing Christians.

Ahh, but here I am involving myself in the type of dialog that I find so pointless here. Time to hide this thread and move on to electing Obama.

[Beregond2]

19. Amen. I try not to get annoyed by the ignorant attacks,

but it isn't easy.

[ZombieHorde]

42. "pointless to get into"

The point is entertainment and 'blowing off steam'.

Here at DU there is an open antagonism and hostility to religion, particularly Christianity which is routinely ridiculed

Why shouldn't we be (verbally) antagonistic and (verbally) hostile towards religion on this message board? What benefit do we gain by denying ourselves the awesome pleasure of routinely ridiculing Christianity on this message board?

religious beliefs are not given a lot of respect

Why do religious beliefs deserve respect? (If that is your view)

All of my questions, in this particular post, are sincere.

[Beregond2]

12. The OT is a (partial) record of a people's evolving spirituality.

Each part has to be looked at in it's historical context. Who wrote it? Who was the intended audience? What was being justified - or condemned? Why?

It is only the bonehead fundamentalists who think every word is equally valid and universally applicable.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. So God DOES change? The Holy Word is not the Holy Word Now And Forever?

Just askin' :shrug:

[Beregond2]

18. Again, only fundamentalists believe in "inerrancy," the idea that

God somehow dictated every word of the Bible. Mainstream Christianity asserts that the Bible is "inspired," but still filtered through the very limiting perspectives of the writers. It isn't a question of God changing, but people's understanding of God developing.

[TechBear_Seattle]

27. The inerrancy of scripture is the foundational cornerstone of Protestantism

Most Protestant denominations arose directly out of the belief that the Bible was alone sufficient for formulating doctrine. That belief is predicated that, at least as far as doctrine is concerned, the Bible is complete and wholely correct. For the Bible to remain complete and wholely correct, God cannot be allowed to change. Therefore Protestantism must hold that God, as presented in the Old Testament, is as He has always been and as He always will be. There is no wiggle room to claim "historical context" or that the OT represents an evolving theology, not unless you are willing to say that Luther, Calvin, Knox, the Wesley brothers, and every other Protestant theologian and teacher were totally incorrect.

[Occam Bandage]

29. If one believes in continuous revelation,

wouldn't it stand to reason that one's theological forefathers were as a matter of course wrong?

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. Very few Protestant churches accept "continuous revelation"

As far as traditionally accepted Christianity is concerned, "continuous revelation" is considered heresy, and has been since the late 2nd century, when Montanus claimed to have received revelations directly from the Holy Spirit.

[Sam1]

35. Yes - it was the only way to trump Catholicism. However the text is

easily interpreted in many ways. Therefore the multiplicity of denominations.

[TechBear_Seattle]

38. And each interpretation is held as the One True Interpretation

Because the Bible is held by Protestants as being complete and correct, many denominations reject the concept of "interpretation:" there is only God's Holy Truth (held by whatever denomination or group you are speaking with) or there is corruption taught by Satan.

[cosmik debris]

15. Which theory is nuttier?

The "written in code" theory?

The "written in context" theory?

The "written in metaphor" theory?

Or the "literal interpretation" theory?

Every believer has some way to make the Bible say what they want it to say.

Every believer has some way to make the Bible agree with them.

oh well.

[pegleg]

20. My advice to you - if you don't like, it don't read it.

Much of old testament is historical and verifiable. It is what it is. But the bigotry against christians and jews at DU is growing. That kind of bigotry is no different than any other form. I'm trying to get an official stand on this from the party but have been ignored so far.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Listen, just because we mention the OT is full of shit...

it's not bigotry against Christians and Jews.

If you don't like people validly criticizing stuff you find holy and inerrable, maybe you should reconsider stuff you find holy and inerrable.

[pegleg]

22. It goes a lot deeper than that and you know it. No book is immune

from criticism. My complaint goes against those who are singling out one religion and walking on it. That is not the Democratic party I used to know and they are going to have to take a stand on it at some point.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Christianity and Judaism are 2 religions, not one

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

24. Are you freakin' kidding me?

After all the Jesus humping the candidates did before the primaries (not to mention during and after), you really expect us to believe this party is anti-christian?

Puh-lease.

Name ONE presidential candidate that didn't suck up to the evangelists.

[Meshuga]

25. What do you mean it goes a lot deeper?

Criticizing the biblical stories is not bigotry against Christians and Jews. At least not against Jews. I didn't see any singling out. I think you are the one narrowing it down on your own. As a Jew I am offended that you assume that Jews would feel singled out when someone criticized the Hebrew Bible. I mean, who cares?

[moggie]

31. So people who criticise all religions are ok?

Since you specifically don't like people "singling out one religion" (i.e. yours), you'd be ok with criticism of Christianity provided the writer is equally critical of other religions? Is that the "stand" you want from the Democratic party?

[PatrickSMcNally]

33. "singling out one religion and walking on it"

Actually, Islam also accepts the Old Testament as a precedent. So taking the Old Testament as a starting for critique carries ramifications for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. How does that constitute singling out one religion?

[FM Arouet666]

37. I love the whole "not the party I used to know"

Just get out of prison or something? Yes that was ad hominish but, really, not the party you used to know???

[FM Arouet666]

36. Historical and verifiable.

Support your claim. But you cannot use the bible to support your position. After all you are claiming that the bible can be supported historically and is verifiable.

[Meshuga]

26. It is problematic if we use ancient values in the 21st century

That's a given.

However I don't know which Sunday school you are refering to or for what purpose you think this stuff is mentioned in such classes but all I can say is that where I came from we were not taught that such bad behavior is something that should be emulated or something we should be proud of. Just because it is in the bible does it mean that it has to be literally followed? I don't think so. If that was the case I think we are all in trouble because I can't think of one character from the Hebrew Bible who is not flawed. Even God is extremely flawed in the Hebrew Bible and his own judgment is questioned in the stories by some of the main characters.

[leftyladyfrommo]

28. I love the Old Testament.

I think lots of it is just beautiful.

You have to remember that it was written probably 3500 years ago (at least parts of it) so you have to take into consideration that culture was a lot different.

[Occam Bandage]

30. Plucked from historical context, many ancient texts sound strange.

I'm not sure why you'd think this would be any different. A Christian would believe that God is eternal and unchanging, but they are by no means required to believe that the ancient Israelites were incapable of understandings of God differing from modern ones.

[metapunditedgy]

34. There's lots of other examples...

King Saul was excoriated by prophet Samuel because he saved some sheep when he slaughtered a city. Times were different when this stuff was written. It's more interesting, I think, to look for if or how these sorts of themes survived in the New Testament (book of Jude, for example) or in modern religious rhetoric.

Given with the way it all ends (Revelation: Hell itself is "thrown into the lake of fire"), it's safe to say there's an undercurrent of "our enemies will be destroyed" running through things.

That's no excuse to throw the whole book away, though... unless you're a fundamentalist.

[Disturbed]

39. The Jewish God was a War God; a brutal God.

The Old Testament is full of stories that point to the brutality of Jaweh(sp) & the Jews. Most of the stories were either fiction or partialy true & exagerated. Stoning was a favorite method of execution. Most societies don't stone people these days. http://www.evilbible.com is extensive in these matters.

[cosmik debris]

40. I thought the Christian God was the same as the Jewish God?

When did the Jewish God get replaced.

And what about the Muslims? Don't they deal with the same old God as the Jews? Or do they deal with the "New Improved Christian God"?

Your theory sure blows holes in that idea that God always was and always will be.

:)

[raccoon]

41. Thanks for the link. nt

[Disturbed]

43. You're welcome.

evilbible.com is great site for info about the bible.

;)