If you really believe that Jesus was all knowing, wise beyond compare

[WCGreen]

and knew all of what was coming and all of what has gone before he would have sacrificed himself so that people like George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan and Dick Cheney could wreck such havoc in his name?

I mean really, the charlatans who have misused and perverted all that simple man said into just another form of holding power over the true believers are far to numerous to count.

And yet, if Jesus had it to do over again, would he?

I mean if you really believe in that stuff.

And the only reason I bring this up know and here in this forum is because of all the hoopla over this weekends faithapalooza down at RW's megachurch. (Did Jesus die so that that fat guy could preside over a palace and live like Herod the Great?)

Purpose driven life. As long as your purpose is to make his life a bigger bowl of cherries. Why the fuck was he so concerned about taxes. Render unto Caesar and all that just goes out the window when it comes from his pocket. Oh, yea, I forgot, preachers are afforded great comfort from the Tax Code and are granted tax free living allowances. Separation of church and state and all. So why was he so worried about taxes?

Anyway, I rant, I rave, I post...

[Lint Head]

1. Who the fuck is Rick Warren? Pleeeeeeeeeze! Someone tell me.

Why do I or anyone else give a tittle about what the fuck Rick friggin' Warren says!!!!!!!! :dem:

[WCGreen]

2. He's the guy who moderated the hootenanny over the weekend...

[Initech]

33. He's the founder of the "if you have no religion, you have no purpose in life" movement.

And the pastor of a some 40,000 member mega church in Saddleback Valley, California.

[XemaSab]

3. This is a very complex question

Assuming that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God, and also assuming a more traditional Christianity:

I think that Jesus was aware that Satan would try to corrupt people, and that's a given.

And that's all I'm saying.

[WCGreen]

6. Good answer...

It just amazes me that so many people want their god to be a protector, a powerful figure that will save them in the end. It just, to me at least, goes against the basic teachings of Christ.

[Breeze54]

4. My gawd is the noodly appendage !

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. He did warn about false prophets and said,

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord,Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven."

[WCGreen]

9. Well that's not all that comforting. I mean, destroy peoples lives here

on earth and you don't get saved. How's that going for all the people who died because the guy "talking" for God decided to kill a bunch of people.

[dysfunctional press]

7. in regard to his concern over taxes- the more his congregants pay, the less they'll have for HIM.

HIM being rick warren, that is.

[WCGreen]

10. All the money they throw at his church is tax deductatble...

That's a great scam these religious entrepreneurs have going.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. When people complain about organized religion, they should remember that

"unorganized religion," in the form of Rick Warren's church and other unaffiliated fundie churches, holds tremendous possibilities for financial corruption and cultish behavior.

In an organized religion, you have financial safeguards and a hierarchy that can remove someone who starts acting like Jim Jones.

Clergy in an organized religion have specific requirements for training, are paid a set salary, do not control the other finances of the church, and must answer to a board elected by the congregation and to the higher ups in the denomination.

Some time ago, a DUer posted about a fundie preacher in a poor neighborhood who talked his congregation into paying his daughter's college tuition. That kind of thing is a danger in "unorganized religion." In organized religion, a church member would complain, and the higher ups (bishops, etc.) would immediately intervene and said, "Pay your own daughter's tuition or get loans and scholarships like everyone else."

I once visited an Episcopal parish where priest was encouraging cult-like behavior among a subgroup of his congregation. The bishop removed him shortly after my visit, and I believe that he was eventually defrocked.

[WCGreen]

14. That's why these "preachers" are considered, by me at lease, as entrepreneurial

preachers and not legitimate in any sense of the word.

[Lance_Boyle]

23. yeah, that's why the fucking pope is so poor.

:eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

25. Yes, exactly. Just a humble servant, that pope...And wow, that system of checks and balances

sure worked well in the Catholic Church -- you know, weeding out all those pedophilic priests and punishing them ... Oh, wait ...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

8. You have forgotten the concept of free will...

Jesus was here (or so they tell me, lol) to save us from our sins...

His death was supposed to redeem us from them...

But.

God gave us free will!

And that means the freedom to do good or ill...

Just sayin'...

:hi:

[WCGreen]

11. Good point...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Yeah, what California Peggy said

:-)

[emilyg]

16. Thank you Peggy.

[Obamanaut]

19. So what about the ones who don't want to be "done unto?" For

example - bombing victims, rape victims, murder victims, abuse victims, etc. Don't know that they are all too happy with the other guys' expression of "free will."

[SammyWinstonJack]

32. ...

:thumbsup:

[Greyskye]

15. Jesus is everywhere

[Sanctified]

17. Even followers of Jesus were selfish while Jesus was alive, so don't act shocked when you see people

today acting selfish. We are not perfect, we make mistakes, we are sinners and that is why Christ put Himself on that cross. He did not go to the cross because He thought humanity would change, He went to save us from our sins.

You can say a lot of bad things about Pastor Rick Warren, but I give him props for not taking a salary from his Church, driving a 7 year old clunker truck and living in the same house he has had for the past 14 years. I think most people who were making some big bucks would be driving a nice car and living in a mansion.

[Indenturedebtor]

18. Unless they were simply concerned with appearances

How much of that money did he give to charity? 25 million or some such he's made from that book? Yikes.

Personally whenever a person in real life offers the fact that they are religious to me I grab my wallet and back away slowly.

[Sanctified]

20. He gives 90% of his earnings to charity and lives on 10%. n/t

[Indenturedebtor]

21. Wow I'm shocked! Good for him. Now if he could only fix the whole Puklican shill thing

He would be a righteous man :D

[Sanctified]

22. Actually I would prefer he stay the hell away from Politicians.

The quickest way for a righteous man to fall into sin is to get involved with politics and power. Rick should get as far away from McCain and Obama as he can and get back to doing Aids work in Africa.

[Indenturedebtor]

27. He's already fallen by backing one candidate over another... who happens to be the candidate of

consumate evil.

[Sanctified]

28. Where did he announce he supports one of the candidates? n/t

[Indenturedebtor]

29. By lying for him with the Cone of Silence BS... repeatedly n/t

[Lance_Boyle]

24. that's what he tells the IRS, anyway.

Warren Jeffs, or whatever the fuck christopervert this one is, bleeds suckers for money. That's all you need to know about him.

[Sanctified]

26. Your post if full of ignorance. n/t

[Lance_Boyle]

35. Yeah. You believe in fairy tales and *I'M* the ignorant one. n/t

[Gabi Hayes]

36. is that the earnings from before or after his book sales?

he's sold how many books? about 30 million, right? and since he did it on his own, how much did he get from that?

he won't reveal his income, and I can't find when he started giving back nine tenths of it. even if he does (he won't tell us the figures), if he got even five bucks a book, that's a hundred fifty million.

I could live on fifteen million bucks for a year or two, I guess.

why won't he reveal the figures, I wonder? could it show that, by any standard, he's still really rich?

if you know the answers, please fill us in

[Sanctified]

37. After, he admits he still has a comfortable living with the 10%.

But again I give him props because I like most people probably would have kept the 90% and only gave 10% to charity.

[RainDog]

30. your question is about free will

do humans have free will and are they therefore responsible for their actions... the choices they make? Some protestant sects believe that all is pre-ordained. Others say that choice determines the course of events within a frame of the end of time at the point of god's choosing.

your question also goes to the underlying idea of Christianity-- that god set the world in motion and gave Eve and Adam free will and both of them chose to disobey god. from that point, sin entered into the world and history began, and rather than just trashing eden and starting all over, god let this thing play out.

(I always found it EXTREMELY disturbing that this view of god - everything's great but this one thing and I- GOD am tempting you with it. The snake didn't tempt them, god did, by mentioning the "forbidden fruit." But of course, that assumes Adam and Eve had free will and knowledge of good and evil when told this. But if they were totally subject to god before "knowledge" of good and evil, how could they have free will to sin? That sounds somewhat sadistic to me. How is this moment rationally possible? I don't mean in terms of miracles, I mean in terms of setting up the rules of a story and then violating them.

the why of this is -- god works in mysterious ways -- always a good cop out. the fundies taught, when I was younger, that Hitler was part of god's plan, even tho he was evil, b/c the Holocaust made the creation of the state of Israel possible. In the eyes of a fundie, anything that brings about the return of "eden," or the return of Jesus as the doorman for eden, is a good thing, even tho it may be tragic. This is how fundies find a way to deal with the "why good/bad things happen to bad/good people" question.

In other views (not christian), Yaweh is a lesser god, one whose fatal flaw is jealousy - in this view Yaweh would be in the same level of the firmament as Mars or Apollo. If Yaweh created the world, he also had to create the fallen star, Lucifer. If he did not create Lucifer, then something beyond Yaweh exists to create his antagonist, and Yaweh has lied to those he wants to rule over. Again, god created the temptation and the idea of giving in to it and the desire to give in to it. Many OT stories are about a mean and vindictive god who is like the mascot/inspiration for the Hebrew Nationals against the Memphis Cats.

In truth, Yaweh is a legend about the history of Jewish people and has nothing to do with gentiles at all. They tacked on the story of Hey-Zeus as the fulfillment of that utopian time that never existed and never will, but it's always nice to have something good to look forward to. All the mystery religion branches of various religious beliefs have the Astarte story of death and rebirth. It's anthropomorphizing the cycle of life in the natural world. (Demeter, Persephone)

Because Yaweh is a story of Hebrew tribalism, fundies have to support Israel no matter what because they are the majors while American christians are the farm team that's back by a guy with a lot of money.

just my pov for now.

edited for typos. and to add that it's beyond hysterically funny that those who now claim they are the "true believers" are the same ones who are supporting and upholding the new "Roman Empire" on this earth. It's an upside down world, I tell ya.

[dsotm-wywh]

31. Matthew 7:22-23

22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and
in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
----------------------------

So they'll all get theirs when they're trying to get into Heaven. I don't know how that should make anyone feel better or help any of the people that have died because of these scumsuckers, but that's Jesus's take on it from the Sermon On The Mount.

[Initech]

34. I quote the late, great Frank Zappa on this subject:

"In the Bible, it says that God created man to be just like him. So if we're dumb then God must be dumb, and a little ugly on the side."