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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:56 AM
Original message
Church Exorcism Rights Case Planned For US Supreme Court
Church exorcism protected by First Amendment
A woman who claims she was injured during an exorcism performed by a Texas church group is reportedly planning to take her case to the US Supreme Court after state judges ruled the actions of the church were protected by the First Amendment.

The Telegraph
By Catherine Elsworth in Los Angeles
Last Updated: 1:34PM BST 29 Jul 2008



Laura Schubert Pearson, aged 17

Laura Schubert Pearson's lawsuit accusing members of the Pleasant Glade Assembly of God Church of subjecting her to a two-day exorcism ordeal in 1996 that left her so distressed she attempted suicide was dismissed by the Texas Supreme Court last month. The judges overturned a lower court's decision awarding her damages and ruled that because Mrs Schubert Pearson's claims of injury amounted to a religious dispute over church doctrine it would be "unconstitutional" for the court to get involved. Religious freedom campaigners say the case strikes at the heart of the US Constitution's First Amendment, which prohibits government interference in the free exercise of religion, and were the US Supreme Court to rule in Mrs Schubert Pearson's favour, it would signal "the end of church independence and religious freedom" in America.

Mrs Schubert Pearson, 29, claims she was left bruised and traumatised after members of her church group allegedly kept her captive for two days so they could perform an exorcism in which was pinned to the ground and "pummelled". The incident happened after fellow members of the church group became convinced she was possessed by demons. She was 17 at the time. After the alleged ordeal, she dropped out of school and tried to slit her wrists. She told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, a Texas paper, that she was determined to seek justice from her alleged abusers after the Texas Supreme Court threw out her case claiming physical and emotional injury. "You can't use your religious beliefs to get away with harming a child," the mother of two who now lives in Georgia told the paper. "This is so much bigger than myself. This is about not allowing the cover of religion to permit physical abuse in a church, and particularly to a child."

In the Texas Supreme Court ruling, Justice David Medina, writing for the majority, said that were the court to get involved and dictate a church's religious activities it would have "an unconstitutional 'chilling effect'". The decision was opposed by three dissenting justices. Chief Justice Wallace Jefferson said it was "inconsistent with US Supreme Court precedent and extends far beyond the protections our Constitution affords religious conduct. The First Amendment guards religious liberty; it does not sanction intentional abuse in religion's name," he wrote.

Hiram Sasser, director of litigation for Liberty Legal Institute, a non-profit organisation representing litigants in religious freedom cases, said the separation of church and state prevented government interference in religious practices except in extreme examples such as sexual abuse. And while this might mean "certain harms may go unaddressed", he said, "the larger protection of the church and religious freedom is the overriding concern." Mrs Schubert Pearson's claims were largely emotional and "so interwoven with religious practices" there was no way for a court to get involved, he added. "The government can't get involved in overseeing religious practices. The best way to say it is it's not American. "If she did prevail that would erase about 150 years of law in this country from the Supreme Court saying the government does not get involved in the internal affairs and operations of the church. It would effectively be the end of church independence and religious freedom in our country."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2466354/Church-exorcism-protected-by-First-Amendment.html">MORE

- So if I get what the gist of the Fundie's lawyer's defense here is, that because of 150 years of law by the Supremes saying government can't get involved in determining religious rituals, ipso facto they shouldn't do it now. But now they'll admit that the sexual abuse stuff on kids is a bad thing, and so they'll concede to let us have the right of stopping them from doing that (plus that's mostly only Catholics anyway, http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm">isn't it?)

However, the beating of someone to a pulp in order to drive out the presence of church-verified demons, well now that is a protected ritual. An ancient religious custom, which is therapeutically effective and medically sound, and proven to be an error-proof method of getting rid of unwanted demons. Demons who have metaphysically entered into a person's body, and who are themselves the spawns of Satan -- The Devil Himself. The Being who has a long forked tail, and with horns on his head.

And so therefore, any person or persons receiving sores, abrasions, muscle sprains, bruises and/or contusions, twists or dislocations of joints, tears of cartilage, simple or compound fractures of any skeletal part of the body, and/or are made to suffer mental health impairments resultant from said practices and/or rituals, are incidental and necessary to the free practice of religion as protected under the US Constitution. And thus assumes institutional superiority over any individual's right of protection by the government from physical or mental harm. Unless the ritual or practice has something to do with having sex with children.

That about cover it???

I don't know, what the particular cases are that they're citing over the past 150 years that allows for personal assaults to go unpunished, but its seems to me that if the Supremes said back in 1963 that you http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/2/">can't make a child participate in forced Bible readings and prayer, then it seems a far stretch to say they you can make a child participate as the victim in their own physical assault.

==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. thanks for the link
from a fellow atheist.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. de nada....
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. So religious rights now include kidnapping or unlawful detention and child abuse?
The sad thing is that the current crop of Supremes would probably agree.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well if it gets that far....
...or is denied cert, then we can count on waterboarding being ok'ed next, to since the Church is where they learned all that from anyways.

- Not to mention all those other http://www.rotten.com/library/history/inquisition/">little goodies they learned about to force those nasty demons out into the open....

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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Leave it to the Texas Supremes
They're a clown show on wheels. Three of them were recently under investigation for using campaign funds to pay for their commute expenses, to the tune of tens of thousands each. One of the three claimed as his defense that he was still campaigning, though he's not up for reelection until 2012. Another was also indicted along with his wife by a grand jury for arson in the SECOND bigass fire in his expensive, lien-slapped, brink-of-foreclosure home. That indictment was chucked the next day by a local prosecutor.

We do the Big Stupid like no others down here in Texas. Ordinarily, this would be Molly Ivins' cue to bust out rollicking stories about the bigger than life doofuses that sit on our courts. Jeebus help me, I miss her fiercely.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Ah yes.
I try to keep up with the doings going-on down there at one of my favorite links http://www.inthepinktexas.com/">In the Pink Texas, so I'm familiar with those instances you mentioned.

- And I miss Molly too....
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. I was so hoping they were planning to exorcise the Court
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well, goodness knows....
- I've been tryin' to do what I can....

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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. So, I've got a question
If the members of the Nazarene Church kidnap a teenage girl from the Assembly of God Church and beat the devil out of her, is that a crime?

Or does it have to be someone from your own church to be legal?

I see a whole new world of conversion opportunities here!
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Apparently...
...but only if it happens in Texas.

- For now....
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
10. Beatings, rapings, mutilations... all are OK if done in the name of religion
How long until "fucking the demons of lust away" becomes a regular part of Talibangelical exorcisms? If the person complains, why, the courts have no jurisdiction in a doctrinal dispute, thanks to the First Amendment.

Assault is assault, no matter what. I really hope the courts rule that way.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. This excuse is a load.
Because the Texas judicial system as well as many others, imposed secular law onto religious practices all the time.

- Just try to say that smoking marijuana or peyote in your church is a holy sacrement and see how long it takes for the cops or the DEA to show up....
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. smoking marijuana or peyote in your church is a holy sacrement
I was thinking the same exact thing. It seems like the judge is lying. I would not be surprised if the judge's church performs exorcisms.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Earlier R/T thread on the Texas SC ruling
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. Texas Supreme Court's ruling didn't settle raging debate on exorcism (Ft W Star-T)
Posted on Sun, Jul. 27, 2008
By MAX B. BAKER
maxbaker@star-telegram.com

... There .. is no consensus on whether the U.S. Supreme Court will hear the case if an appeal is filed as promised. The Schubert attorney has asked for a rehearing at the Texas high court, a request that is typically denied ...

Kelly Shackelford, lead attorney for the Liberty Legal Institute, a conservative nonprofit organization .... said any appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court faces an uphill battle.

Marci Hamilton, an attorney and leading scholar in church and state relations, said she thinks the majority of the Texas high court "got it completely wrong." She said the Texas court is a "renegade" on this issue.

Hamilton, a professor at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York City, said the U.S. Supreme Court has made it clear that there are neutral, applicable laws that can be applied to religious groups whether or not it is a core religious practice ...

http://www.star-telegram.com/national_news/story/786871.html
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. With about 7,000....
...writs of certiorari submitted each year, its always an uphill battle for any case to be heard. With a requirement that a cert receive at least 4 votes by the Supremes, I have my doubts it'll be heard as well.

- Particularly with this court....
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. But probably through the Fifth Circuit first, eh?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. I can't see how kidnapping and assault are covered.
I hate to bring up a slippery slope argument here, but how far are religious types allowed to go, then? Kidnapping her and holding her hostage to beat the crap out of her was allowed, so what's next? If they can go against those laws, what other laws would they be allowed to break in the name of their faith?
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And what about the girl's free exercise rights?
If she is being kidnapped and beaten it sorta infringes on her right to visit a different church next Sunday.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Good point.
Hmm. I think she's right to take this to court. I hope she doesn't stop fighting with this ruling.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. From what I can gather....
...they can get away with just about anything short of having sex with underage persons, or murder. And I'm not certain about that last one because they can always claim it was the "devil what done it."

- Which raises an interesting point here. What if the young lady had died and her family sued the church? Would they intervene then?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. they can get away with just about anything short of having sex with underage persons, or murder
Or drug use.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
15.  "You can't use your religious beliefs to get away with harming a child,"
Yes, you can, people have been doing just that since they invented religion.

Imo, indoctrinating children into this kind of religion is akin to child abuse.



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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. You just....
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. Is everybody in this world a fucking moron?
Excorcisms??? REALLY????


I hate people. I need to get off this piece of shit planet.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
26. I bet Scalia head spins before they're done with the oral arguments.
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