Woman jailed for 'worshipping tea pot'

[emad]

By Thomas Bell, South East Asia Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:40am GMT 05/03/2008




Kamariah Ali, a 57 year old former teacher, was arrested in 2005 when the government of the Muslim majority country demolished the two storey high sacred tea pot and other infrastructure of the "heretical" Sky Kingdom cult.

For the eccentric sect, which emphasised ecumenical dialogue between religions, the tea pot symbolized the purity of water and "love pouring from heaven".

But in Malaysia, despite constitutional guarantees of freedom of worship, born Muslims such as Mrs Ali are forbidden from converting to other religions.

Passing sentence, the Sharia judge Mohammed Abdullah said: "The court is not convinced that the accused has repented and is willing to abandon any teachings contrary to Islam. I pray God will open the doors of your heart, Kamariah."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/04/wteapot104.xml

[DeSwiss]

1. I know that Bertrand Russell is somewhere....

...laughing his ass off!!!

"Is There a God?"

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

- I wonder what she served for communion. Tea and crumpets???

[struggle4progress]

6. Russell typically supported individual conscience against society/state pressure

He was imprisoned during WWI for pacifism and attacked repeatedly throughout life for his unorthodox views

It is, of course, entirely possible that Russell would not have liked this woman's ideas: but your claim, that the old individualist and humanist would have laughed about her imprisonment is ridiculous

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. I expect DeSwiss as referring to the woman's beliefs, not her punishment

Decades ago, Bertrand Russell proposed his tea pot analogy to show the silliness of certain beliefs about God. Here is a woman for whom a tea pot actually is an analogy for God. I can't help but think that Russell, who had a well developed sense of gentle good humor, would be tickled at this belief system.

[struggle4progress]

12. Let us consider this at more length. Every event, of the sort instanced in the OP,

essentially demands that one choose sides: when a person is blacklisted, or hounded from employment, or attacked, or imprisoned, or executed, simply because of their essentially harmless ideas, one can respond in various (and inequivalent) ways

One can say (for example) It's about time or What a silly person! or This is outrageous or any of various other things

So upon hearing of a woman who is jailed, because the state and/or her neighbors disapprove of her particular beliefs, which seems to involve a symbolic use of a teapot, rather than lip-service to locally-standard Islamic notions, you want to snicker because bertrand Russell once used a teapot as a metaphor in an argument against religion

But Bertrand Russell, who himself blacklisted and hounded from employment and imprisoned at various times, seems to have decided quite early in life exactly what he thought the proper reaction was when such things happened to other people:

Political Ideals
by Bertrand Russell (1917)

... To begin with, we do not want all .. to be alike. We do not want to lay down a pattern or type to which .. all sorts are to be made by some means or another to approximate. This is the ideal of the impatient administrator. A bad teacher will aim at imposing his opinion, and turning out a set of pupils all of whom will give the same definite answer on a doubtful point ...

Those who realize the harm that can be done to others by any use of force against them, and the worthlessness of the goods that can be acquired by force, will be very full of respect for the liberty of others; they will not try to bind them or fetter them; they will be slow to judge and swift to sympathize; they will treat every human being with a kind of tenderness, because the principle of good in him is at once fragile and infinitely precious. They will not condemn those who are unlike themselves; they will know and feel that individuality brings differences and uniformity means death. They will wish each human being to be as much a living thing and as little a mechanical product as it is possible to be; they will cherish in each one just those things which the harsh usage of a ruthless world would destroy. In one word, all their dealings with others will be inspired by a deep impulse of reverence ...

Political and social institutions are to be judged by the good or harm that they do to individuals. Do they encourage creativeness rather than possessiveness? Do they embody or promote a spirit of reverence between human beings? Do they preserve self-respect? ...

http://www.gwiep.net/library/Russell_-_Political_Ideals.html

I detect here some failure to understand an essential aspect of Russell's spirit

[knitter4democracy]

2. Interesting sculpture, though.

People should be allowed to change faiths or decide to have no faith. That's a bad law--people grow and change, and that change should be allowed.

[uberllama42]

3. She's luck they haven't decided to execute her

Normally the penalty for apostasy under Sharia law is death. Sharia courts are particularly offended by people who leave the Islamic faith and tend to care less about people who were not raised into Islam.

Both sides come out looking ridiculous in cases like this, but this woman really should be allowed to worship whatever she wants.

[mainegreen]

4. I bet if they instituted death for apostasy in Malaysia, instant civil war would result.

Not that I don't think a religious war isn't inevitable there anyways.

[struggle4progress]

5. Mandatory drug-offense executions seem to comprise the bulk of Malaysia's hangings, with

certain "internal security" offenses (including some weapons possession) representing additional cases http://madpet06.blogspot.com/2005/02/mkini-govt-reveals-execution.html

I have located no info on "apostasy"-related execution in Malaysia: do you know that such executions actually occur there, or are you merely spouting stereotypes?

[uberllama42]

7. Only if you consider the Koran an anti-Muslim stereotype

Surah 4, verse 89 warns of the dangers of associating with non-Muslims, as they will inevitably try to lead believers astray. It also commands Muslims to kill anyone who turns away from the faith. Perhaps I exaggerated how commonly this prescription is obeyed, but there is a clear scriptural mandate for the practice.

According to Human Rights Watch, apostasy remains a capital crime in Saudi Arabia. At least one apostate was beheaded last year.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/01/11/saudia17761.htm

In 2006 an Afghan named Abdul Rahman was convicted of apostasy not by the Taliban but by the supposedly moderate government installed by Coalition forces. His death sentence was commuted due to mental illness and he became a political refugee in Italy.
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2006/03/four_lessons_from_afghanistan.html

I never said that execution for apostasy was the norm in Malaysia. But I do know that the traditional punishment for abandoning Islam is death. That is not some ugly smear I made up because I don't like Muslims.

Thanks for trying to keep me honest.

[John Gauger]

8. "Will inevitably try to lead believers astray,"

Damn, how did they know? What is the penalty to an infidel who tries to deconvert believers? I just want to know what I'm heading towards.

[struggle4progress]

9. The Quranic verses you cite occur in approximately the following context, and citing them out of

context is not an ideal method for understanding the text:

AN-NISA (WOMEN) ...
004.085 Who helps a good cause is a partner in it ...
004.086 When offered a greeting, respond with a more courteous greeting ...
004.088 Why be divided about the Hypocrites? ...
004.089 They want you to deny as they do and so be like them: take not friends from their ranks until they flee (from the forbidden). If they become renegades, slay them; (in any case) take no friends from among them ...
004.090 .. except those .. who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you ...
004.091 Others want to gain your confidence ...:...if they withdraw not nor give (guarantees) of peace .. seize them and slay them ... We have provided you with a clear argument against them ...

This could mean quite a number of different things: it's not obvious at all that one must read it as a demand to "execute apostates;" in fact, there are many Muslims who believe Islam must always be an entirely voluntary religion and hold that there is no Quranic basis whatsoever for any punishment of "apostasy"

There are also, of course, a number of fundamentalists who insist on such punishment, even to death, as in your examples from Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. But the OP concerns Malaysia: I haven't found any evidence Malaysia executes "apostates" -- although there do unfortunately still appear to be criminal penalties for "apostasy" there (which is actually the topic of the OP). If you wishes to think productively about such matters, you may find a certain careful respect for the actual facts helpful

[uberllama42]

10. I still don't understand what I said that is counterfactual

I don't know what else I can add to this. You seem determined to call me a liar and a bigot, and I don't know what more I can say to combat that.

Some countries interpret Sharia as calling for apostates to be executed. Malaysia is fortunately not one of those countries, even if they do impose lesser punishments. I've already admitted that calling execution the "usual punishment" might be an exaggeration, but it is certainly not unheard of. I really don't think pointing that out is ignorant or bigoted.