hey all you atheists and agnostics !!!

[stellanoir]

I was thinking of you guys when I was listening to this guy today.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131

He is a professor of Religious Studies at the University of (I think) North Carolina and was an evangelist and then became an agnostic.

He has an interesting story for sure.

Someday I just hope that we all can agree that believing in almost everything and believing nothing are in the end very similar.

Enjoy & Peace.

[DesertFlower]

1. you must be talking to me.

:toast:

[tekisui]

2. Nothing is special.

Thus, Everything is special.

[ixion]

3. very siminlar indeed

thanks for thinking of us, stella. :hi:

[Fearless]

4. When it comes to Heaven and Hell

we must all realize that the qualities of those ficitious places exist in our world during life and that it is the choices that we make that decide for us how our lives will play out, either happy or not.

[ret5hd]

6. So, those kids in Darfur...it's their own fault?

[stellanoir]

8. No if you listen to the interview and observe the title of his book

he's talking about how the bible doesn't explain the purpose of suffering, which inspired his conversion to agnosticism.

[ret5hd]

9. I was replying to nothingtofear, who wrote:

"...it is the choices that we make that decide for us how our lives will play out, either happy or not."

[stellanoir]

11. Well personal responsibility certainly has its place but so does karma and other

unimaginable forces at play or so I'd guess.

Just think it's wild that he went through such a conversion is all.

[Fearless]

22. There are no outside forces...

We are who we are. Everything that we are is contained in our genes.

As to what I said before... I meant it in the collective. That we ALL decide how the world will be. People decided that the world would be Hell for Darfur refugees (amongst others). They perpetrated the evil that put them in their Hell. If we can understand that the evils in this world are directly descendant from the actions of men (and women) and not karma and not fate and not God, then we will be able to affect change, then will we be able to come to terms with our own inherent evil (as a society) and remove it from the lives of those that Hell was thrust upon. Thusly "Heaven" is the end result.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. Sorry, the concept of an all powerful being who keeps you in

his (her) thoughts is just absurd. Believe it if it makes you feel better but, in the overall scheme of things, the concept is just absurd.

[More Than A Feeling]

7. I believe in lots of things, just not supernatural stuff.

Atheism is a beginning, not the end.

[stellanoir]

13. All is reflected in nature for sure.

It's an infinity symbol or so it seems to me.

[More Than A Feeling]

15. Nature is what it is

But we've got a lot of ignorance to dispel to get a better idea of what exactly that is. That's a quest that will outlive us all, but its the proverbial "narrow road" and its all too easy to get sidetracked by what we wish were so, rather than doing the best we can with what is. That's a hope and a confidence that I share in, that we don't need any magical powers or heroes or father figures, that we have the emotional, mental, and physical resources within ourselves and in league with each other to ride the wave of whatever comes down the pike.

[cosmik debris]

10. You seem desperate for validation.

"believing in almost everything and believing nothing are in the end very similar."

You have a serious lack of understanding.

[stellanoir]

12. I'm hardly looking for validation.

Just thought it was an interesting interview in terms of his shifting perspective as a theological scholar.

Why are you so intrepidly insulting. Sheesh. Lighten up. I just thought some of you might think it was semi cool.

"Mechanistic reductionism often masquerades as maturity."

Hurrrumphhhh

[cosmik debris]

14. When you say that believing bat shit crazy ideas

Is similar to disbelieving bat shit crazy ideas you are way off base.

I just guessed that you were trying to make belief in bat shit crazy ideas more palatable.

It won't work. Belief in irrational ideas is in no way similar to disbelief in irrational ideas.

And you can't make it palatable or rational by a false comparison.

[stellanoir]

16. Well I couldn't find the original version of this

but I heard it when I was very young.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x430XNZhnWs

The closing line if memory serves is "nothing is everything,"

I'm not calling your ideas "bat shit crazy." Again consider lightening up.

[cosmik debris]

17. Again you missed the point.

I am calling superstition bat shit crazy. I am saying that disbelief in bat shit crazy ideas is far superior to belief in bat shit crazy ideas.

You seem to be saying that stupid and educated are similar. That reasoning and blind belief are similar. That no matter what you believe, it is similar to believing verifiable truth. That is just plain idiotic.

And it is insulting to all of us who struggled to get an education, who struggled to hone our reasoning skills, who practiced to develop our critical thinking skills, only to be told that we didn't really need to do all that because we would be just as close to the right conclusion if we were uneducated, unreasonable, and uncritical of all we were told to believe.

[stellanoir]

The mere suggestion that I'm "uneducated, unreasonable, and uncritical of all

(I) was told to believe" is absolute baloney.

I was merely suggesting a corollary of similarity rather than the usual dualistic bullshit.

I foolishly though someone from this forum would find that interview as interesting as I did.

Next time I might not even bother.

Yikes I wish you'd just relax.

I've no desire to fight with you at all.

[cosmik debris]

20. If you weren't trying to pick a fight,

You shouldn't have posted the absurd notion:

"believing in almost everything and believing nothing are in the end very similar."

This is not a forum where such an irrational idea will go unchallenged. If you did not want to be challenged, you are in the wrong place for that type of idea.

[stellanoir]

21. Sorry it's just something I've always believed and discussed with many, many,

agnostics and disbelievers. Others have understood it. Yes it is irrational but with some it resonates. Sorry it doesn't with you.

[stellanoir]

19. self delete

flaky double post

[no_hypocrisy]

18. Dan Barker of Freedom from Religion Foundation was an evangelic minister and

became a freethinker incrementally by first starting to read books which in turn challenged his blind faith.

http://ffrf.org/about/bio_dan.php

http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/

[stellanoir]

23. Yeah I found his story to be really intriguing

That was my whole point really.

I thought it might assure the atheists and agnostists who frequent this place. His conversion was completely unusual.

[BurtWorm]

24. "believing in almost everything and believing nothing are in the end very similar."

I'm not sure you understand atheism if you think it's "believing nothing." Is that what you mean to imply with that statement?

Atheism is believing not in god or gods. It is not believing nothing. Is that understood?

Or did you mean something else "believes nothing?"

[conscious evolution]

25. believing in almost everything and believing nothing

Lao Tzu said this in the Hua Hu Ching a long time ago:

Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you. The first is the path of acceptance. Affirm everyone and everything. Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction, regardless of circumstances. Embrace all things as part of the Harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it. The second path is that of denial. Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth. Peel all the veils away, and you will arrive at the Oneness. Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness. Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with it. All you have to do is participate in it.

[Silent3]

26. How do you know Lao Tzu wasn't full of shit?

What about the "path" of judging each thing you want to or need to make a decision about on that thing's (drum roll, please!) ...individual merits?

Let's see...

Does the Earth revolve around the Sun? Yes!
Do invisible garden gnomes eat my neighbor's petunias? No!

But gosh golly, all of that special thinking applied to each question wore me out! I'd better take a nap. :)

(Four hours later...)

Is the only way to "free yourself of mental and emotional knots" to be mindlessly stupid, to make a binary choice of Acceptance or Denial... and presto, change-o... out of oversimplification taken to the extreme, Spontaneous Awareness of the Great Oneness drops by for a cup of tea?

Lao Tzu said a bunch of cool and interesting things, but a lot of it's just "brain candy". It tickles your mind in a way that makes you go "ooooohhhhhh!", but it's a big mistake to interpret that sensation as a magical Truth-O-Meter.

[cosmik debris]

27. Hmmm?

"Affirm everyone and everything."

OK, Manure helps heal open wounds--bleeding a patient is good medicine. You want to affirm that?

Or

"Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion a veil over the truth."

OK, antibiotics help cure bacterial infections--alcoholism is linked to liver disease. Is that "falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth"

I think we need to send Lao Tzu to the Health Scare Forum. He obviously didn't give a hoot about the difference or the importance of fact and fiction.

[conscious evolution]

28. Swap those examples around

"Affirm everyone and everything."

OK, antibiotics help cure bacterial infections--alcoholism is linked to liver disease.

Manure helps heal open wounds--bleeding a patient is good medicine.

"Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion a veil over the truth."

Does what he said makes more sense now? L.Pasteur would probably think so.

[cosmik debris]

29. No, I put those examples in that order to emphasize the absurdity

Lao Tzu doesn't seem to give a hoot about truth and fiction. That can be a fatal flaw. I prefer to know what is true and what is false and to keep that distinction clear.

[conscious evolution]

30. And emphasis absurdity you have done.

Thanks and have a nice day.

[Silent3]

31. You're the one who laid the absurdity out on the table.

We're just pointing the absurdity out. You apparently prefer to go no deeper than the "Oooooohhhh! Doesn't that just sound sooooo deeeeep!" reaction that the words like those of Lao Tzu can engender, and then get angry at anyone who digs into those words to look beneath the shiny surface.

[conscious evolution]

32. KTHXBY

[cosmik debris]

33. It is embarrassing to be caught saying something stupid.

Next time maybe you will think before you post.