One problem I have with organized religion is they often have the idea that people are inherently

[raccoon]

bad and have to have "goodness" forced into them. I should add that most of my RL experience with religion is with Protestant Christian churches.

To me, the idea that people are inherently bad, inherently sinners, etc., isn't helpful. Sometimes the church (or those speaking for it) go further and basically say, you're a POS, but since God is so good and wonderful and forgiving, He actually loves EVEN YOU.

I got enough of that kind of message from my family of origin and relatives, thank you very much, and I don't need any more of it.

[zanne]

1. I'm with you, raccoon.

I was raised Catholic, and the idea of a baby being evil until it's baptized is absurd. Religions always seem to have their own litmus test; you either do what a particular religion wants you to do, or you're evil. All religions are cults as far as I'm concerned. I think the purest form of belief in God (Or Gods) is a belief that we hold within ourselves, that was borne out of our own hearts and minds.

[truedelphi]

2. George Carlin has a wonderful piece of comedy to that effect

That without God and Jesus you are nothing but a big worthless sinful sack of SH#$

But hey, lucky you, God loves you! (Carlin really makes this God sound like the all time God of bad taste!)

I was raised Catholic and it is pretty bad there too - the entire Mass revolves around the words, "Lord forgive us our sins."

At eight o'clock in the morning, I feel relatively sin free. I haven't had time to sin!

[BrklynLiberal]

3. If organized religion cannot offer salvation from inherent evil and punishment for bad deeds...what

purpose would it serve....:evilgrin:

[Warpy]

4. Kids are born atheist and totally selfish

and the latter is how they survive. They scream when they're hungry or a dirty diaper is starting to cause a rash because those conditions need to be reversed immediately to prevent real damage to them.

After the negativism of the terrible twos, when they discover they're alive and everybody else is separate from them, they go through a "good girl, good boy" stage when they really try to please Mommy and Daddy, often with disastrous results (I thought they'd LIKE that crayon mural on that ugly blank hall wall!).

That stage doesn't last forever, and eventually the kid figures out s/he has needs that might conflict with those of his parents, and s/he begins to reassert these needs. That's about the time Mom and Dad really feel like the kid needs that old time religion to civilize him/her, try to get back to the "good girl, good boy" stage they left behind.

People are neither all good nor all bad, they just ARE. There are people whose behavior I find acceptable and people I don't, and I tend to shun the latter. Religion sells them a bill of goods that they're "good girls, good boys" no matter what they do as long as they believe, and that outsiders are all bad because they don't believe.

I grew up Irish Catholic and the one thing I found out early is that girls and women were nearly always all bad and had little chance of heaven. And they wonder why I left.

[zbdent]

5. Heard a RW a-hole on the radio the other day saying "When it's your time, you're gone.

No matter how much you exercise, eat right, or smoke marijuana dipped in antifreeze." (Not his exact words, but along that theme).

So, I was thinking ... if it's all pre-ordained, as this guy hinted, then if I went up to him and shot him dead, that would be pre-ordained? That there would have been nothing he could do about it?

Seems to me a lot of these people who say "It's God's will" spend a lot of time throwing things at a wall and then drawing the target around where they hit, saying "I hit a bullseye!"

[raccoon]

6. Your last paragraph is well said! nt

[skater314159]

15. As a working chaplain...

... a LOT of the problems that I help people deal with have to do with humans attempting to assign meaning and purpose to events that are random.

For example:
- A 26 year old Hispanic woman experiences still-birth of her 20-week old fetus... followed two weeks later by the remaining twin. This are the fifth and sixth child the couple has lost before coming to term.
- A mother is brought into the Trama Unit... she was in a car wreck and is now brain dead. Her husband has to decide whether or not to keep her on life-support so that her unborn child has an opportunity to come to term.
- A 19 year old African-American male is walking to the convinence store to buy some chips and a soda.. he gets a call on his cell phone to go back and get a pack of cigarettes for his sister. He is gunned down outside the store.

Are these deaths somehow representative of the "will of God"? I don't think so. Saying that they are not the "will of God" doesn't mean that they are without meaning or purpose though. People get this confused... to them, if it isn't "the will of God" or "a sign from Jeeee-zus!" or "the work of a demon", then it has no ultimate meaning or purpose. They don't really get the meaning of meaning or just what a purpose is.

Sometimes the meaning is that "some things are random" - or in street terms, shit just sometimes happens - this doesn't mean that we can't learn and grow from it. It just means that we will have to expand our minds, hearts, and souls to do so. Learning and growth are what give events meaning and purpose... they help us to find the beauty and magnificence in life. And death.

Unfortuately, some people are ignorant... and sometimes those people are aware of that fact and keep their mouths shut... but too often they think they KNOW and tell others. LOUDLY. I have heard actual human beings say that the above tragedies were "God's will" to the families amd friends of the deceased... no, those weren't chaplains, but they were people who were on scene and should have KNOWN BETTER.

What you heard on the radio, and what I heard in the above cases was an ignorant, scared person proclaiming their ignorance and fear loudly. They think by talking loudly while sounding certain, they can somehow tame their own uncertainty and feelings of having a lack of control over life. We each heard a small-minded, closed-hearted man who is scared of everything, who bases his whole life upon deprivation and FEAR trying to explain the greatest mystery of humanity: life and death.

My advise is this... you wouldn't listen to this guy's opinion of global warming, politics, or the other things of this world... why let him bother you over something deep and philosophical? Don't let the assholes get ya' down!
Peace zbdent!

:hippie:
skater pi

[zbdent]

27. I usually don't listen to this ahole ... but it's the one for traffic, maybe

(and usually, even though they are sitting right on top of a major expressway, they virtually ignore it unless that's the only place with a wreck, and even then, the wreck is mostly cleared when they get around to it)

and this guy usually can't get through 3 sentences without blaming a liberal for something, or making a Hillary reference ... one of the reasons I wanted Hillary to win the Presidency was because this guy said he would probably leave the country if she did, and I wanted to see if the ahole would honor his word, like the Republicans say they would ... I doubt it ...

[sam sarrha]

7. this is why i am a Buddhist, we arent Atheists, we believe all sentient beings are Buddha's >Link>>

we all contain ultimate goodness/ultimate awareness within us.

we are all responsible for our own salvation. the Wheel of Life is an interesting map of how it works..

http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavacakra

the wheel contains the realm of the Gods, they are born live long lives of unimaginable power. but they also suffer old age suffering and death, their great powers can not save themselves, so it follows they cant save us either.

that process is our own responsibility, a process described as the Four Noble Truths..

i really identified with this when i first learned about.. tho i am a recovering childhood victim of extremist fundamentalist christian torture and torment. i suffer PTSD from my childhood experiences in an isolated Free Holiness Pentecostal Church, run by a cult like individual.

[varkam]

19. Correct me if I'm wrong...

but isn't buddhism a little less dogmatic than you're making it out to be? I mean, buddhists can believe a wide variety of different things...can they not?

[ZombieHorde]

21. Their are many types of Buddhism.

Some are more dogmatic than others, just like Christianity.

[varkam]

22. I guess I always fancied Buddhism, though would never call myself one...

because of it's seemingly less dogmatic stance about theological issues (ie you don't really have to subscribe to anything metaphysical to be a Buddhist)

[sam sarrha]

24. Buddhism is not a Religion, it is most correctly described as a psychology, a method for training th...

mind

[ZombieHorde]

26. Buddhism and dogma.

I guess I always fancied Buddhism, though would never call myself one...

I understand that completely.

you don't really have to subscribe to anything metaphysical to be a Buddhist

There are metaphysical aspects to Buddhism, but it seems optional as to whether someone takes them literally, or as metaphor. Different schools have different emphases.

[Warpy]

42. Some branches are more contemplative, others more ritualistic

but they're all the same at heart: the practice of deep meditation leading to detachment from desire and an end to suffering. That's it in a nutshell, and everything else flows from that.

Also, all gods arise from the same place, the minds of men. They have a limited lifespan and while each seems all powerful in his time, eventually he'll be forgotten like all the others that came before. We give them life, not the other way around.

[sam sarrha]

23. the Shakyamuni Buddha drew up the Wheel of Life as a teaching tool, yes there are other forms that

evolved as it spread and morphed into various cultures.

Pure Land Buddhism is based on the teachings of the Shakyamuni Buddha about another Buddha, Amataba the Buddha of limitless light. he has a Buddha Field that is sort of a University for Bodhisattva's.

the NSA Neitchuren practice is based on a single Sutra of the Shakyamuni Buddha.

Zen is its own spin off...

there are 2 basic schools or 'Vehicles' of Buddhism, Hinayana/Mahayana, the

as for Dogma, that doesn't really describe the situation, Buddhists don't describe anything for anyone else to believe. The Discourses of the Shakyamuni Buddha are collected in the Tipitaka, if bound like legal volumes side to side it would stretch about 6 or 7 feet. the Wheel of Life is a visual depiction of how Samsara works, and how to get out.. created in a way so the poor and illiterate could understand it.

i don't believe that Dogma is a bad word ..:"a system or principals of belief". "Buddhism" is based on the first teaching of Shakyamuni, 'The Four Noble Truths' everything else is dialog explaining them. there are also dialogs with and about other Buddhas:resulting in Pure
Land.. one can go as deep into it as they want, but if one only practiced the Four Noble Truths they could reach enlightenment as easy as any other path. a lot of the Drama is teachings to individuals and groups during his travels.

the details can be found at http://www.buddhanet.net their Buddhanet Audio is very informative.

i studied at a Chenrezig Center, a Tibetan Galupa group, our Lama was an attendant to the Dalai Lama and the Chant Master of the Dalai Lamas Monastery. i attended 2 meetings during the week and 2 hour meditation on saturday, for 4 years before i became a Buddhist, it wasn't something i just decided i was after reading Dharma Bum's.

[denim_kittens]

43. His Holiness is...

Something of a homophobe, is he not?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm

[Beregond2]

8. Religion

I understand your feelings very well. I used to feel the same way. But when I decided as an adult to study religion more seriously, I realized that the kind of thinking you were appalled by isn't really an accurate reflection of Christian doctrine. It's a "dumbed down" version of the Gospel, basically. The churches don't educate their members well about these matters, finding it easier to reduce the whole thing to a kind of formula.

I don't want to get into an endless dicussion of this topic, but may I suggest a book you might want to check-out that makes these points very clearly (and briefly?) "The Mystery of Christ- and Why We Don't Get it" by Robert Farrar Capon. His main theme is that Christianity isn't a religion at all, but the declaration of the end of religion. An intriguing thought.

[LiberalFighter]

9. IMO religion was created to gain control of the people and it's a form of government

[skater314159]

10. Man, this is why as a Chaplain I disagree with a LOT

taught in American (mostly Protestant) Churches... The idea that people are inherently bad sets one up to have a really negative view of the world.

The sad thing is that view is totally foreign to the Jewish faith - which are the authors of the texts that Chrisitians use to support that view. Many other faiths (including many sects of Christianity) think that people are inherently good - but are given the capacity to choose their actions - be they good or bad. I tend to agree with this view, and add that we are also responsible for the effects or karma of our actions.

I am sorry you had to endure that kind of shit growing up, and as I like to tell people, God isn't an abusive dad, so ignore the fuckers who describe God like s/he is. God (whatever that term means) is waaaaay to big to be confined to the understanding of close-minded, fear-based, hatefilled fundies.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Amen. nt

[varkam]

20. But I think it's hard to argue that this sort of view...

is not present among many denominations of at least modern-day Christianity (being modernists ourselves, and most of us being Americans, this is the religion we have the most exposure to).

[LiberalFighter]

25. There is one thought that Christianity religion purposely included the OT

in their Bible to give themselves more credence to their religion. Having a brand new religion may not have been as acceptable to the people.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. I think we're all inherently *flawed* - but that's far different from

*bad*. I do not think we're born evil. I think we're imperfect. Realizing that's a trait that every single one of us shares is a good thing, I think. Hopefully, it allows us the room to be more loving and forgiving of others, since we'd like to be treated that way ourselves.

The Puritan/Calvinist idea that we're evil is one I reject, as well. Like the old poster said, God don't make junk.

[skater314159]

14. Hey... I wasn't gonna mention that "C" word...

...because I didn't want to sound like a bigot, but if I could label one (and only one!) theology as "dangerous to humankind", it would be Calvinism. No equivication, hands down winner.

I think Calvinism says more about Calvin and his own inner psychology (which makes me feel sorry for him) than it does about human beings, the Universe, or the Numinous.

[JerseygirlCT]

16. Yeah

I can't claim to be a student of Calvin himself. But looking at what his beliefs hath wrot, I have to agree. The idea of an "elect" is so completely opposed to the ideas at the heart of Christianity that it takes my breath away.

The fact that this idea and its corollaries dovetail so nicely with aggressive capitalism and elitism just confirms that to me. (If you're one of the "elect" you'll know that because you'll be blessed in this life and that sort of bunk).

[skater314159]

17. Yep...

... an interesting historical and anthropological study of the effects of extreme Calvinism and its effect on human beings is to read the diaries and personal papers of Calivinists from 18th century America. There are diaries filled - to the max - with endless analysis of every little detail of their lives to determine if they are among the "elect". It's really tedious to read, and when you remember that an actual person, who was actually grappling with this, wrote this - you start to feel very angry and upset that someone would subject another human being to that sort of emotional and spiritual blackmail.

I really wish the Calvinist ethos did not have such a strong taproot in North America; until people learn that there is no love in fear, there will be a place for Calvinism in the hearts and minds of Americans.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. That's well put. You're absolutely right! nt

[Evoman]

34. It's funny, but if human beings didn't have some of those flaws, we would

probably be extinct as a species.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. True enough

I guess there's a balance there. Because selfish and violent behavior, unopposed by selfless and loving behavior, wouldn't be such a good thing, short term or long term, either.

[Realityhack]

13. People aren't inherently bad

They ARE inherently stupid.

One of the reasons for seeing so much negativity in organized religion is that it makes for a wonderful way to keep people under control. People who feel like they are shitty and have abnormally 'bad thoughts' etc. etc. are much easier to control.

[Marrah_G]

28. That always bothered me too

I never quite understood Christianity. The Old Ways make far more sense to me, they just seem to fit with what I already believed.

This is not a swipe at Christians, I just never got it. My family gets it, and it works for them. Just not for me.

[knitter4democracy]

29. Not the Eastern Orthodox Church. It's part of why we're not Catholic.

We say that people are born good, just that it's easier to sin than not to in a fallen Creation. We take that path because, if you say that people are born bad, that makes sex a sin (could bring a sinful being into the world). We don't like the idea of sex being a sin or the idea of babies going to hell if they're not baptized in time. So, we say that people are born good. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

30. And I think in general, the Orthodox view on issues like this is

much closer to the Judaism from which all of our Christian denominations arose.

[knitter4democracy]

31. Very true.

I remember watching a tv show (forget which) in which a chantor was practicing for some service while two other characters talked, and I was able to start singing along in Greek. I've often thought about visiting a synagogue for service to see how much was similar.

[JerseygirlCT]

32. It might depend a good deal depending on the synagogue

(IME), but generally speaking, and based on my limited experience of Orthodox services (a wedding and a funeral) and a fair number of Jewish ones (husband is Jewish) I imagine you'd see a good deal there to remind you of the roots of our faith, and specifically your Orthodox take on it.

(And I'm tired, and if that sentence just ran on into the next room, I do apologize!)

[knitter4democracy]

33. Thanks for the insight.

I really should visit, if just to see what it's like. :)

[Meshuga]

36. Actually, non-orthodox Jewish services are influenced by protestant services

Non-orthodox Judaism wanted to make the services more interesting (with a sermon) and more structured. Otherwise the services are just a bunch of people davening at different parts since once you arrive at the synagogue for the minyan, you would have to start from the beginning (and not pick it up as you arrive). It is a pretty chaotic thing.

Non-orthodox Jewish movements (Reform, Conservative, etc.) came in and indroduced more structure to services based on protestant services.

As far as human nature, Judaism claims that people are born with both yetzer hara (evil inclination) and yetzer hatov (inclination to do good) and that we should be mindful and try to favor our yetzer hatov. People are people, we all do good things and we all make mistakes. The idea is to look at the mistakes and try to correct them.

[knitter4democracy]

38. Interesting.

Our services seem a touch chaotic, too, with people coming and going, lighting candles and walking around kissing icons whenever they get there, and often a priest or deacon off to the side hearing confessions, all while the choir and chantor are singing and the priest is conducting the service. Smaller churches aren't quite that chaotic, especially here in the States, but it's definitely not like a Protestant service. Sounds like it would be a real experience. :)

[Rob H.]

37. I know someone who attends a church like that

They do the whole, "You're all filthy sinners and even though you don't deserve it, God loves you anyway" thing all the time. (FWIW, it's one of those right-wing, rapture-ready megachurches.) What I don't get is why she likes it there so much--if I were to go somewhere where they constantly told me that I'm not "good enough" I would stop going!

[John Gauger]

39. Well, the whole idea of a god is that they are a higher order of being.

So once you've got this concept in your mind, you immediately have some apologizing to do. It's also helpful to an organization to look as thought they actually have something to offer people. Saving you from your wicked self looks pretty attractive to these people. Guilt is a powerful tool of control.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I've always viewed "original sin" as a theological restatement of the common saying

"Nobody's perfect."

To paraphrase Paul, we all do what we know we shouldn't do and fail to do what we know we should do. That's the human condition.

I've never met a perfect person. Have you? I've met some scary people who were probably sociopathic, and I've met some people whom others describe as "saintly," but I've never met anyone perfect.

Add to that the fact that children have to be taught by word and example not to be selfish, how to share, how to take turns, how to help rather than hurt other people, how to control their tempers, how to be kind to animals instead of treating them as inanimate objects without feelings.

That's all original sin is, really. Some of the early Christians were influenced by Greek and Roman philosophies that taught, "Spirit good, flesh bad," and we are much the worse for it.

[nemo137]

41. As much as I've drifted away from my religious upbringing over the past year.

This is the facet of that I have the least problem with. You look at all the stupid, hurtful shit that people do, like to post here that asked "After Pol Pot, is it still possible to believe in God," or the fairly loud, amazingly selfish voice in all of us, and you have to wonder if people aren't inherently bad.

Looking at it another way, what's the whole process of socialization other than forcing "goodness" into people?

[pegleg]

44. Then you are quite free to not join in or not participate.

And certainly free to express your opinion.