It sure is strange watching people's reactions to little differences in terminology.

[More Than A Feeling]

So I got involved in an online gay marriage debate, and I started off by mentioning that Unitarian Universalists are generally ok with gay marriage, and they back their stance by faith. For some reason, my interlocutors thought I was saying that I was a unitarian, though I'm not (attended some meetings once, never signed the book). They called unitarian universalism a cult, then never mentioned it again. That is not the way they would have reacted if they had remembered that I am openly an atheist and Secular Humanist on that website (they have short memories for some reason, since I know the ones talking to me have seen me arguing for atheism on there before). They would have been distracted by a discussion about atheism, rather than staying focused on gay marriage. Just a weird moment, especially since its quite easy to be an atheist, a Secular Humanist, and UU at the same time.

[msongs]

1. shows they don't know the definition of cult nt

[JDPriestly]

2. Unitarian-Universalism is not a cult. It was the religion of John

Adams and Ralph Waldo Emerson among others. It is a well established religion and probably the furtherest thing from a cult that anyone could imagine. There are less established religions with similar names. Some people might call some of them cults. I am a Unitarian-Universalist.

Below are some definitions of a cult. Usually, in my view, members of a cult agree on certain core beliefs that they adhere to almost fanatically. Unitarian-Universalists believe a variety of different things. The one thing you can be sure of is that we don't all believe or think alike. I remember that at a meeting of Sunday School teachers, our assistant pastor asked how many of us believe that there is a life after death. About 40% of the teachers raised their hands. On almost any issue, you will find that Unitarian-Universalists, unlike members of a cult, have distinct opinions and beliefs. We have a few things in common -- we like to discuss -- we generally don't like dogma -- we enjoy the quiet of Sunday services, thoughtful sermons, good music, or any one of these things. The first Unitarian church that I attended way back in the 1960s didn't have sermons. We just sang Bach chorales. Finally there was a minister. I was very young at the time. It seemed to me that he just appeared out of nowhere. Maybe I had simply been going to the wrong services. I will never know, but I had a great experience and have been a Unitarian ever since. I think a lot of DUers would like Unitarian-Universalism.

The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different definitions of the word "cult."<15>

1. Formal religious veneration
2. A system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents;
3. A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents;
4. A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator;
5. Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book).

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary's eight definitions of "cult" are:

1. A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
2. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
3. The object of such devotion;
4. A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
5. Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
6. A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
7. The members of such a religion or sect;
8. Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

Webster's New World College Dictionary defines "cult" as:

1a. a system of religious worship or ritual
1b. a quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices or beliefs
2a. devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle or lifestyle, especially when regarded as a fad
2b. the object of such attachment
3. a group of followers, sect

For authoritative British usage, the Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English definitions of "cult" and "sect" are:

cult<16>

1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object.
2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.

sect<17>

1 a group of people with different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.
2 a group with extreme or dangerous philosophical or political ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

[More Than A Feeling]

3. I know. The argument didn't turn on that distinction.

My point was that James Madison and the Founders framed the constitution specifically so the government would not have to get involved in deciding who was a cult, who wasn't or whose doctrine was the official doctrine of a particular church and whose was heretical. It was an establishment clause argument meant to discredit their biblical justifications for opposing same sex marriages.

[JDPriestly]

4. As an illustration of your point, courts will not give opinions

on theological questions. If opposing members in a church have an argument about the ownership of property, for example, the court will decide the issues based on legal facts like title ownership, if possible, but courts will not attempt to determine which opponent has the "correct" view on theological questions and therefore should prevail. If you think about how ill equipped a court of law would be to decide theological issues, you realize how important it is to separate church and state.

[JerseygirlCT]

5. That's actually sort of funny

UU's as a cult. Wouldn't that imply some sort of unity of belief? They're exceedingly open -- beliefs run the gamut from atheists to Christians and lots in-between and around.

I think it would be pretty hard to fashion all that into a cult, don't you?

Did you have fun with them (the on-line ignoramouses)?

[More Than A Feeling]

6. I got one of them to agree that it would be ok

if the government allowed gays to marry, so long as it didn't force him/her to approve of it personally. Another wouldn't back down from his/her "if we let gays marry, incest and bestiality will be next" even after I hit him/her with the "if you are opposed to redefining marriage, do you oppose the redefinition of marriage to allow interracial marriage"

The weird thing was that it wasn't the most incendiary argument going on in that thread. The same Darbyite/Scofield protestants were having it out with catholics (who ignored me, and I did likewise). As far as I know, they are still going at it a day and 10 pages of thread later.

Their definition of "cult" is "any religion I disagree with, because I am always right even if I can't explain why."

[JerseygirlCT]

7. LOL, yes, I've run into that definition, too. nt