OT - Christian DUers, explain this concept to me please.

[_TJ_]

This is not meant to be an attack on anyones beliefs. I am
not a Christian but I respect Christians very much so long
as they accept that I have a right not to share their beliefs.

I accept in advance that my understanding of Christian teaching
may be off base since I don't know too many Christians in RL.

Ok then, here it is - the thing that seems most illogical and
impossible to me in Christianity's teachings is the concept of original sin.

How can everyone in the world be in any sense to blame or worthy
of punishment for Adam and Eve's sins?

How can we collectively be to blame for what someone else did
6000 years ago?

When someone commits a crime we don't arrest his son or
grandson for that crime. We certainly don't arrest his neighbours.
We admit that every person is responsible for their own crimes
and wrongdoings - surely everyone is responsible for their
own wrongdoing and not for anybody elses. To blame people today
for Adam's sins is surely immoral and in fact illogical.

And what about Jesus' death on the cross? How can Jesus'
punishment and death atone for *our* sins? If I have
sinned, punishing someone else for that sin makes no
sense at all. If *you* have sinned, punishing *me* for that
sin can't possibly atone for what *you* did.

Can anyone make sense of this issue for me?

TJ

[Deja Q]

1. Adam and Eve committed incest, w/Cain boinking Eve soon after killing Abel,

in order to propagate the species.

Now if that ain't sinful, nothing is.

And I will mock. Christians, "Christians", or other otherwise good people have done far worse to me because they don't like homosexuality. (Sheesh, I'm not even flaunting it in the real world yet every day I see hets denigrating homos while flaunting the ones they get nekkid with in one way or another.) So, forgive me, I refuse to consider any subject taboo.

[_TJ_]

2. Reasons why I posted this

1) it is Sunday and it has been on my mind all this morning.
2) I've tried to raise it on Usenet but no one seems willing to
address it.
3) I'm going to see "The Passion of the Christ" later and I want
to understand what it is supposed to mean.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. "The Passion of the Christ"

is not, imho, a film about Christian doctrine, but rather a sadistic movie.

Mystics say that the original sin was that of judgement-and that mankind had to leave the Garden, because it is a metaphor for self-awareness that creates the illusion that we are apart from God.

[_TJ_]

39. That is very deep

There are so many possible answers to this I don't know what
to think :(

[supernova]

3. While I'm xtain, I don't subscribe to the "original sin" argument

but I'll try. It goes something like this:

Being in The Garden was good. Being in the Garden was very, very good. Eating of the Tree of the Knowledge was very very bad. So bad, in fact we were thrown out of the Garden. That was, indeed, very, very, very, bad.

If it weren't for Eve, we'd still be there. Not separate from God.

That was the original sin, for which we are still paying, or so that particular brand of theology goes. I don't go for it, but it pleases the fundies and their need to be punished somehow. :shrug:

[_TJ_]

19. Crucifixion

Thank you Supernova. What do Christians who do not believe
in original sin think of the crucifixion? What is its special
significance?

TJ

[TXlib]

63. Good point

Without original sin, is there any significance to the crucifixion? And isn't that the heart of christianity?

I, also, don't mean to attack, but it seems to me there are an awful lot of people who call themselves christians who don't subscribe to the fundamental tenets of christianity. There's no doubt they're spiritual, and sincere in their belief in some god. But it seems to me they'd often be better served by a different religion.

[Lefta Dissenter]

4. well,

I can't answer your question, since I'm not a Christian either, but if you have some time, go to www.sojo.org I have found a lot of good information there, and it helps me to understand that there are many Christians in the world who are trying to live the life that follows Jesus' teachings.

[_TJ_]

20. Thank you Lefta Dissenter

That is a good site. I look forward to reading it.

[donco6]

5. OK, here goes . . .

(from a fundie protestant perspective, so feel free to add your own denoms slant)

Because Adam was the father of all, we were all present with him in the Garden (remember, in those days, people thought the male carried the "seed" and the female was the "fertile soil".) So when Adams sinned, we all sinned and fell from grace. It only takes one sin to merit death and eternal condemnation.

When Jesus died on the cross, he did so as a perfect, blameless sacrifice - much as a sacrificial lamb (hence the Lamb of God). He was without spot or blemish, and he was a man. Therefore, he was the only one who could pay for our sins, because he had none of his own to atone for. And, since he was also God, he rose from the dead, thus accomplishing the perfect atonement.

BTW, I'm not a Christian, and I think this is all baloney. But there you are. Let the flamewar begin.

[zanne]

23. I think the person who came up with the idea of Adam and Eve...

Was probably a guy who had very bad luck with women. One day, he was sitting around, pondering all the bad things that happen to good people, when a light bulb went on above his head--"AHA"! said the luckless guy--"It had to be the woman's fault"! "I'll call her Eve and use an apple as a symbol for sex"!
Any questions?

[Old Deuteronomy]

27. That was as good as it gets....

and it is truth from the Word of God as we know it... sorry you feel it is baloney, but the day will come...ahem... when ALL will know...

Nope, not gonna say any more. Just truth.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Not all Christians hold to the concept of original sin

I think it was an idea that came out long after Jesus left the earth plane. Realize that many "Christian" concepts were devised by thinkers and scholars centuries after Christ. The concept of the Trinity is another example.

Personally, even when I was a Christian, I didn't think Christ died for my sins, but rather showed the ultimate example of forgiveness in that act (for he did forgive those who killed him).

[Dogmudgeon]

10. The Trinity

Both the Gauls and the Mithraists (who were predominantly of Celtic origin -- Tocharian -- anyway) had elaborate religious ideas based on triplicities, triads and trinities. It is possible that the early Christians adopted this as a metaphorical way to relate the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

--p!

[_TJ_]

24. That is a good answer

Thanks ayeshahaqqiqa (good name!) - that is one of the best
explanations I have heard.

Why can't Christians ever explain their beliefs that well?

TJ

[salin]

38. Not a literalist

so I view "original sin" idea as the idea that we, as humans, are all prone to sin... that it takes conscience effort not to commit sin. I believe that Jesus came to teach us that it is a personal struggle to try to live in a way where one does not harm others (or self) through sin; and to teach us what that means (via the parables); I also look at the crucifixtian as the ultimate example of love, sacrifice and forgiveness - as well as rebirth - when one accepts those tenants (of love, sacrifice and forgiveness towards others) spiritually as a way to live in peace rather than in pettiness, hatefulness, or exploitation of others.

[_TJ_]

40. That is very convincing

"I also look at the crucifixtian as the ultimate example of love, sacrifice and forgiveness"

I think that is the best answer I have come across.

TJ

[T_i_B]

62. The man who made it such an important doctrine...

..was St Augustine of Hippo. He was probably the greatest theologian of all time, even though much of his theology is not exactly DU friendly.

The original Sin argument came particularly to the fore in the dispute between St Augustine and Pelaigus, which resulted in Pelaigus being deemed a heretic for denying Original Sin. (One of the finest DU'ers on this board incidentally is a DUer called Pelaigus, and I tend to agree with him that Pelaigus got a bit of a raw deal.)

The Original Sin doctrine is particularly important in my experience in Churches that tends towards the Calvinist viewpoint as it's a major part of the old faith v works debate.

[seabeyond]

7. original sin

is to start from babies saying how we are all sinners in order to convince all they need to go to church on a regular basis because of being sinner

continually tell yourself you are a sinner, eventually you will create the sinner self, ergo in my theory all the retarded and perverted right wing christians going wild

god in the old testament, continually put the sin of the parent on the child and their child and their child and their child for all generations to come, fair or not

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Original Sin Is A Metaphor For The Fact That We Are Impefect Beings...

Even the most empathetic, moral, and honest people have lapses....

[papau]

11. Well said - the other posts had me scratching my head! :-)

Granted the sins of the father is a fundie idea "Because Adam was the father of all, we were all present with him in the Garden (remember, in those days, people thought the male carried the "seed" and the female was the "fertile soil".) So when Adams sinned, we all sinned and fell from grace. It only takes one sin to merit death and eternal condemnation." -

but I am not certain one must buy it to be a Christain (granted it may be the price of admission to membership in some churches).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. My Explanation Is A Practical One...

I doubt anybody can claim to have lived a life totally devoid of sin no matter how upright the person was...

[papau]

17. Very True :-(

:-)

[donco6]

29. Fundies don't really use the term "original sin"

as such. At least, not that I remember. But the concept is there. And, as is their wont, they take it to extremes sometimes.

I remember a couple that adopted a crack baby, and they were essentially ostracised by the church because the goofball leaders believed they were bringing sin into the camp.

It doesn't take long for things to get turned on their head with these people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. That's Bizzare...

That baby is without sin because the baby wasn't responsible for the crack addiction...To commit sin you must have free will or choice... The baby had choice...

[donco6]

36. Remember, fundies believe babies go to hell

if they die before "accepting Christ."

That's another reason they're so strongly opposed to abortion.

Catholics, on the other hand, have an intermediary region called Purgatory. I was taught that babies went to Purgatory (if you died before Confirmation). Don't know if that's still the official line or not.

[Dogmudgeon]

54. Unbaptized/unsaved babies go to Limbo

They live in a state of baby-like bliss until the Last Judgement, then they are given an adult life in the restored Kingdom.

At least according to one set of theological accounts.

--p!

[MemphisTiger]

65. I've heard some churches say that babies go to hell since

they haven't accepted Christ into their heart. I have also heard other churches say that babies too young to accept Christ basically get an exemption and go to Heaven. There is a term that I can't remember and can't find. These arguments change from Church to Church and are not settled by the term Christianity. There are distinct differences between Catholics and Baptist, both call themselves Christians.

[_TJ_]

26. Thank you DemocratSinceBirth

I think you are correct in interpreting this as a metaphor.

Many Christians seem to think we are literally being punished and
deserve to be punished for something that Adam/Eve did 6000 years
ago. I just can't believe that is right.

If there is a god, he surely has a better concept of morality than
that.

TJ

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. All The Strife In The World Isn't A Function Of Original Sin

It's A Function Of The Fact We Are Imperfect Beings And Some Of Us Are More Perfect Or Imperfect Than Others...

[QC]

12. DU has a religion forum for threads like this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

[_TJ_]

28. Thanks QC

There are so many forums here that I have yet to learn
about. I will post religious threads in there in the future.

TJ

[mdmc]

13. Humanity sinned, not Adam and Eve

Every time we use our intellect to satisfy our needs instead of strictly serving G-D, we are recreating the 'original sin'.

Up until the death of Jesus, G-D never suffered. Only by G-D taking the role of humanity (via the flesh of Christ) could he 'bond' with us, and understand our condition.

So there is no pleasure or thought greater than the love of G-D. Nothing that we should do on earth should ever distract us from our primary mission (to serve G-D).



Does this help?

[_TJ_]

31. This is very complicated

Thank you mdmc. Your answer is a bit complex though for me
to understand.

Do you mean that the crucifixion was for Gods benefit so he could
understand our condition better? Does it benefit us as well?

TJ

[mdmc]

56. Remember, Satan has already rebelled against heaven

man is cause of this falling out.

By giving himself up for us, Jesus helped us to understand that THERE IS NOTHING GREATER ON EARTH than serving G-D. I idea that an action may cause pain (for us or our loved ones) is moot since the ultimate reward would be to return to the Lord.

G-D sacrificed his only son. There is all sorts of shit and bas stuff in the world. Nothing on earth compares to our ultimate salvation. No harm on this earth is worth sacrificing our salvation.

G-D does not benefit from this. Mankind benefits in that we have a "lead" to follow. Turn the other cheek, man.

[G_j]

14. In the Aramaic language"sin" and "evil" were archery terms

..just one discussion I found on this, but I read about this long ago.
We have a completely different 'understanding' of these terms than was originally intended.
--
http://www.saraswatiyoga.com/PeterFox/where_the_arrow_fell.htm

The meaning to sin and evil

Apparantly the Hebrew word from which sin was translated meant where the arrow fell when it missed the target.
Here is an interesting christian/budhist dialogue, about this subject, which begins and concludes with these comments:

"Buddhism has a completely satisfying answer to evil and sin. The Buddhist approach would be to question your "desire" to be without sin or evil, to look at the question itself. Why would you limit your life? To trap you into an experience that western language finds difficult to say directly. To direct your search to the real truth. Here our normal "logical" English language just breaks down. What is this "illogical" experience that is not linear and deductive? The answer is "There is - in fact - a life that can be experienced outside of the level of thinking." I call that the essential teaching of Buddhism."

"In the Aramaic Language and culture that Jesus taught in, the terms for "sin" and "evil" were archery terms. When the archer shot at the target and missed the scorekeeper yelled the Aramaic word for sin. It meant that you were off the mark, take another shot. The concept of sin was to be positive mental feedback. Sin is when you are operating from inaccurate information and thus a perceptual mis-take. When you become conscious and aware if the results of your inaccuracy you have the option to reconsider what you have learned and do as they do in Hollywood, "do another take."

This view is also reflected in an understanding of karma:

'Indologist Herman W. Hull, author of The Vedic Origins of Karma, writes: "In the context of Vedic ritual thought, good and bad apparently refer to a valuation of action based on ritual exactitude: good being equated with the correct performance of the rite, bad with the incorrect performance." Swami Vivekananda, who spoke and wrote on karma extensively, commented on this understanding of the law: "The Vedic doctrine of karma is the same as in Judaism and all other religions, that is to say, the purification of the mind through sacrifices and such other external means." The Upanishads (circa 1500-600 bce), the philosophic treatises of the Vedas, show how karma relates to the individual and his or her actions -- with questions of morality, responsibility, reward and retribution. They clearly command the individual to be responsibly concerned about personal conduct and not expect the priesthood alone to secure and safeguard one's karma through the performance of sacred rites. As Sage Yajnavalkya says in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad: "What becomes of this man? Indeed, one becomes good by good action and bad by bad action.' Quoted from http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/karma.html

[aneerkoinos]

57. Hamartia

The Greek word for sin also simply means 'error'.

[Jokinomx]

16. Its a way for a religion control their subjects...

Whether it is condemning eating certain foods, condemning sex or saying your a sinner just for being born. It is a way religions make their subjects feel less than good. They then offer them a way to salvation. A way to rise above the state of being a sinner.

Its all a trap... none of which has actually anything to do with the truth. Smoke and mirrors to continue to control people and keep them from finding the truth. The truth that religions are to used as a tool to learn somethings.... but eventually one graduates or matures to a point of not needing to be told what is right or wrong... that you become the Christ conscious and do the right thing because its the right thing to do...not because of fear of hell or punishment.

I once had a good Mormon come up to me at work and say.. "Well, if you don't believe in God, then why don't you rape, pillage and steal?"

I said because it is wrong....

It was also his understanding that I don't believe in God... since I feel I am not smart enough to understand the concept of what a God actually is..... I don't believe or disbelieve in him/her or it.

A great book that gives a different point of view of who Adam and Eve were...its an easy and interesting read... "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn

Good luck on your quest for answers... but, sadly in my experience when confronting questions such as yours with Christian religious organizations...you will end up going in circles with them... for their is no logical answer to this question.

[_TJ_]

32. Thank you jokinomx

Your answer is quite cynical - but I do not disagree with any of the
points you make.

[Jokinomx]

60. I didn't try to be cynical... I just stated my understanding of religions.

The single greatest achievement I have attained in this lifetime, is to be free from the bondage of religions. Free to find for myself the answers to my questions. Free to raise my children from my heart not from a religious dogma. Free to read, ask questions, search where ever my heart took me to find the answers I was seeking.

I have spent my entire life searching for the truth whatever it was or where ever it came from. I have answered all the questions that I have ever started asking, some as a young boy... to present. Its just there are two more questions to ask for every answer found.

With that said... we are all on a journey to understand who we are, where we come from and why we chose to come to this planet. The answers to all those questions are there for those that have a passion to understand and do not judge where the truth comes from.

Seek and you will find... Knock and the doors will be opened....just be ready to seek in places your not accustomed to and be ready to go through doors that you thought you would never find.

As I stated earlier... Keep asking the questions and the answers will find you.

:toast:


BtW.... Welcome to the Underground... It great to have you aboard. I hope you enjoy your time here.

:toast: again...:-)

[oneold1-4u]

18. The "SIGNS"

Well I was once "born=again" but I studied and studied and a lot of answers came to me! That old saying about some of the people some of the time but not all, all of the time, keeps coming back to me.
I can not have much faith in "humanity" that is determined to destroy so much throughout history always declaring that I (or anyone)don't have any right to think or love within my own strengths.
Religion has always used "profane signs' to make thousands of declarations of "truth".
If Terri came back to normal life today they would lay claim to her, and worship her, and follow all these persons (politicians in particular) who saved her, across the universe with arrogant righteousness.
That is much like Jones and Jonestown! Don't ever be a follower!

[knitter4democracy]

21. Here goes.

This is from an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and we have a slightly different idea of original sin than the West.

Adam and Eve were the first humans, and they were blessed to be so. They only had one rule: do not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That's it, one rule. They even were able to eat of the Tree of Life. It was a covenant, an agreement. They broke it through sin, and their sin brought sin into all of Creation. Where before things had been peaceful and healthy, now there was shedding of blood, earthquakes, bad things. (Many see this as an explanatory story, a myth, or at best a symbol of how we are and who we can be.)

Creation is now fallen into sin, and it is easier for us to sin than to not. We are not born with sin in our genes (as the West implies in its theology), it's just that we are born into a fallen world. It's easier for us to choose to sin than to choose not to much of the time.

When the original sin occured, God told of the breaking of the covenant and how the covenant would be healed, and that would be with the shedding of blood to defeat the evil one. Jesus's sacrifice was to heal the covenant--to heal the relationship between mankind and God. It took God reaching down to mankind in order to heal us all. Of course, it isn't really finished, as Creation is still fallen, and it's still easier for us to sin. It's that there now is a Way back to God, and the Way is through Jesus and His sacrifice. It will only be finished at the Second Coming.

Of course there are other religions out there with similarities, but I personally have found Christianity to be the only way for me. The Jesus Prayer, the liturgy, and all the other prayer aids, knowing that others before have found peace this way, really help me on bad days like today.

If you are confused by what I wrote (and I'm no theologian, so it's probably not quite right or easy to understand), I recommend _The Orthodox Way_ by Bishop Kallistos Ware. It's a well-written book that I found useful when I found the Orthodox Church.

[_TJ_]

35. I still find it hard to understand

"They broke it through sin, and their sin brought sin into all of Creation. Where before things had been peaceful and healthy, now there was shedding of blood, earthquakes, bad things. (Many see this as an explanatory story, a myth, or at best a symbol of how we are and who we can be.)"

If it is a myth I can accept it. But if we really are living in
a f*cked up fallen world because of A&E, I find it hard to accept
and understand.

Why would a fair god who loves us let this happen to us when we are
not the ones who commited the original sin.

Maybe I am just too bone-headed to understand this :(

[knitter4democracy]

42. No, it's that it's a mystery.

I look on it as many other parts to the faith: mystery. There are many things about Christianity that don't make logical sense, but then again, I'm using my human logic to deal with it. I see the Adam and Eve story as an old symbol, archetype if you will, of our relationship with God. He asks little of us but is sure to ask it. We often let Him down through sin. He gave us another Way through love to restore that relationship. It's not that we're being punished so much as that we are still making the same wrong choices as they did.

Regardless of how it started, this world is messed up now. We're all sinners, and we all have fallen short of the glory we could have been. We do on a regular, daily basis. We have a path, though, a Way to love, to understanding, to peace through Jesus Christ, if we choose to follow it. That path is hard, though, so we still slip up and mess up constantly; yet, we are still forgiven if we ask for it and given a new chance.

Christianity is a faith of hypocrites. We know how we are supposed to be, but the only One who achieved it was Jesus, both man and God. He had an unfair advantage, I suppose. Not a single person can measure up to Him, but we are to try every minute, every second, every single day. Some are better than others, but all still fail. It's the true Christian who is humble and knows this, asking forgiveness for sins (even of our neighbors and fellow humans) and trying to change for the better.

[_TJ_]

45. another good answer

Thank you knitter4democracy. Will you explain your understanding
of the significance of the crucifixion to me please? I would really
appreciate it.

TJ

[knitter4democracy]

50. The Crucifixion

I look at the Crucifixion of our Lord and Savior as the ultimate sacrifice anyone could make for anyone else. He, who was without sin, took on our sin, our blame, our guilt, and died a horrible state-sponsored death to erase that guilt and fix our relationship with Him.

One thing I was told was that, even if I were the only person on earth and had nailed Him to that wood myself, He still would've done it to help me, to give me the option to choose to have a relationship with God. Amazing.

I also like was Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote:
Christ's death upon the Cross is not a failure which was somehow put right afterwards by his Resurrection. In itself the death upon the Cross is a victory. The victory of what? There can be only one answer: the victory of suffering love. "Love is strong as death . . . Many waters cannot quench love" (Song of Songs 8:6-7). The Cross shows us a love that is strong as death, a love that is even stronger.

That's what our faith is really about: love. He gave His life for us out of love and rose again to give us the chance at Heaven, a life ever-after with Him in a restored Paradise. He didn't have to. In the Garden of Gethsemane, He had the option to walk away from it all and not die for us. He even asked the Father to take it away from Him, and yet, when it wasn't, He still walked to the soldiers and died for us. It may sound pathologically sick, but He knew that His sacrifice was needed to restore our relationship with Him. That's love.

[KittyWampus]

22. Adam & Eve Are Allegories... The Meaning Is PURELY Symbolic.

Jesus was not so much a Rabbi but a Yogic Master who attained total control over his body.

There have been a few fully Enlightened Individuals who have mastered their physical, mental, emotional and spiritual Selves to the point of escaping the Physical Limitations most of us labor under.

Jesus was one historical figure who set a example of what the rest of us are slowly evolving towards over our many incarnations.

The Exoteric Doctrines are misconceptions of these facts.

[Mr_Spock]

25. When I posted something religious/political - it got moved to "religion"

There are two threads here in GD that are more religious than my thread - please be consistent with the thread movings...

[_TJ_]

37. What is appropriate for GD

Is it not "anything goes" in here? Maybe I got away with it
because it is Sunday ;)

[Mr_Spock]

41. LOL - maybe you did

:P

[Nobody]

34. Having gone to a parochial HS

I haven't managed to make sense of it.

If you read the story, you have the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (where do they get sex out of this?). Knowledge of good and evil is morality. Eat the apple and know the difference between right and wrong.

God told Adam (but not Eve, Adam told Eve) not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or he would die. Where was this tree? In the middle of the Garden of Eden where they could easily get at it. Would you, an imperfect human, leave your car keys in your unlocked Mazerati in a crime-ridden neighborhood? Of course you wouldn't. Not unless you were the police initiating Operation Catch Car Thieves and had that car under surveillance.

Along came the serpent telling Eve that she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit. She asked several questions and then decided to try it. She didn't die. Instead she gained knowledge of good and evil. She offered the fruit to Adam as well and he ate without much fanfare or questioning.

In the story, Eve and the serpent have several lines of dialog before she eats. In the bible, that's a lot of dialog for a short story. Adam barely asked anything at all.

Yet they don't proudly state that A: God lied when he said they'd die. B: Why is it a bad thing to be moral beings?

They're like young adults. They've got the mental and moral maturity that God the father was trying to keep from them as many human parents do, but they've still got the habit of following rules for rules sake. They're doubting themselves, and still afraid to stand up to their overprotecting parent.

It's an allegory of growing up. The god in this story doesn't want Adam and Eve to become fully mature and punishes them for it.

Also, if you think about it, knowledge of good and evil - morality - is what separates us from the other species on earth.

[knitter4democracy]

44. But they did die.

The original plan was that there wouldn't be death in Creation--even meat-eaters weren't meat-eaters then, if you read the story carefully, as they didn't become so until after the Fall. They didn't die then, but they did die later. That's where the real lie is. The serpent's lie had just enough truth in it to make it look good.

Btw, a note that is often overlooked in the story is that Eve turned to Adam to give him the fruit. In other words, he was standing next to her all along. It's just that she was doing all the talking to the serpent, but he was there and agreed to it. I hate it when theologians leave that out or make it sound like it's all Eve's fault. The only thing that's Eve's fault is pain in childbirth--and she lived with that, too, so I guess it's somewhat fair.

[Nobody]

49. They were never guaranteed immortality

Pain in childbirth was a punishment along with Adam having to toil on the earth. Somehow it's OK for males not to have to all be hardscrabble farmers and they get to use tools and other labor saving machinery but anything to ease the pain of childbirth and reduce deaths wasn't.

It wasn't until the 20th century that childbirth was no longer the number one cause of death among women. This was why.

[knitter4democracy]

58. I'm not arguing the sexism that used Genesis for its argument.

I think it's been misinterpreted by biased individuals and institutions throughout history. A closer look sees the two as equal (she's from his side, not his foot, stuff like that), and that's been discounted for too long. Women died in childbirth, in part because of this horrific interpretation and in part because of poor hygiene and medical practices. For goodness sakes, midwives and doctors didn't even wash hands until the 20th century.

[JNelson6563]

43. This may help

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=263x3463

Julie

[Jokinomx]

61. Very Well Put... JNelson6563

I think your onto something here....:-)

I can't disagree with one point. I copied and will be putting this list on my Family Undergroud site....thanks.

:toast:

[zalinda]

46. Please remember the bible was written

many, many years after Christ died. Also remember, at the time that not many people read, and so therefore the bible was recited as stories. I don't think any of the people who wrote the bible thought it would ever be taken literally, it was meant more as a guide book. Many of the stories in the bible and religion, came from other religions. Holidays were taken from existing holidays, since it would be easier to convert the masses to them.

Remember that at that time women were considered chattel, and even now in that region, women are raped for what their brothers did. Women are killed for being raped, because it brings dishonor to the family. No man seems to ever take the blame for his actions, in that part of the world, and will easily let others take his punishment.

You can not discuss religion or the bible without discussing the social morals at the time the bible was written or the religion created. To a large degree, the middle east is still living in biblical times. And look how much we respect their social ways.

As for Adam and Eve, the people who wrote the bible, had absolutely no idea how man arrived on this earth, so they made up a story, simple as that. It could have come from some story they had heard from a traveler, or bits and pieces of it. I could never understand how catholics could consider women second class citizens, since we are the vessels that brings in new members to it's church. I don't know if it's still true, but my mom said she had to confess every time she had sex that did not result in a pregnancy.

Religion serves a purpose, it's a threat of punishment if you offend the God, and if you put all the religions together, God gets offended quite easily. This was meant to keep people in line and provide social harmony. Life was brutal, and the bible was the first step in to really civilizing people to live together under a common bond.

zalinda

[_TJ_]

52. Rural Pakistan :(

"even now in that region, women are raped for what their
brothers did. Women are killed for being raped, because it
brings dishonor to the family."

This is rampant in some rural parts of Pakistan. Every time
I read about this happening I am reduced to tears.

I have a sister and I love her *so* much. I cannot imagine how
any man could harm his sister or daughter because she was raped.

Sometimes I feel so ashamed to be a man :(

[_TJ_]

47. Great answers guys!!

Why can't I ever get a decent debate going on usenet?
The Christian groups just ignore me when I ask questions :(

[LiberallyInclined]

48. basically-

it's all a bunch of hooey, anyway.
god didn't create man in his image, man created god in their's.

i always wonder why anyone would want to freely worship a "god" that would subject his "children" to eternal damnation for merely doubting the ancient words of other admittedly "sinful" men...?

anyone?

[bobthedrummer]

51. First off, if this happened it was a more distant past-not 6,000 years ago

that's my Christian belief and just one of the reasons I don't respect organized religion of any type. I avoid group-think and behavior modification found as "worship" in congregations.

Fundamentalist zealots are bad news whether Christian, Jew, Islam, Wicca or any other organized religion-aren't they?

Why did you bring up such a divisive topic and then limit discussion to only the past 6,000 years since we are dealing with the concept of eternity here?

Then there is the secret society factor to consider.

[Must_B_Free]

53. This is related to Buddhism

I recently saw a show about buddhists who meditated themelves into mummies. A Japanese mummy had a very wide eye socket and they explained that during an epidemic of eye disease in his village, he had taken a knife and cut out his own eye - the concept is called Jhuku and it means "taking on the suffering of others". As soon as I heard this I knew it was what Christianity's crucifixion story was a recycling of.

[More Than A Feeling]

55. This is my thought on that subject

Adam and Eve is not a literal story, but rather it is an allegory (or whatever) which explains how human beings came to be self aware ie more than animals with instincts. At that time, the concepts of right and wrong came into existence. Before then, nobody made moral judgments of each other, they did not know they were naked. ("then the eyes of both of then were opened, and they saw that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves" Genesis 3:7) Jesus came and said "judge not lest ye be judged" for this reason. As far as His death on the cross, it was not to atone for sin, but to triumph over it, to call people and show them that there is another way, show them the consequences of hatred and judgment, the death of the ultimate innocent.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. Since I don't take the Adam and Eve story literally, here's my view:

Even secular people acknowledge that "nobody's perfect." When the Apostle Paul talks about doing the things he knows he shouldn't do and not doing the things he knows he should do, everyone, religious or not, can relate to that.

I see the Adam and Eve story as a mythological explanation of why human beings cannot achieve perfection.

[GOPBasher]

64. As soon as we became self-aware, we learned right from wrong,

and that biblical moment symbolizes the event. We're all imperfect beings; none is able to be perfect. We're not being punished for Adam's sins, but for our own. We all sin.

By the way, I'm a Christian, but probably a type with which you're familiar. I believe in universal salvation. Jesus died for everyone -- not just those who happen to "pick the correct religion." "All died in Adam; all live in Christ." But you can be "saved from your sins" here in this lifetime, notwithstanding eternity, by accepting Jesus.